This is a private thread meant for communicating ideas on a set that we are tentatively calling Brotherhood of Ormos. The design team for the set consists of the following people….
Those that are not part of the design team are free to post thoughts if they like, but please try not to derail the team's thought process. Thank you.
<Edit>I've put the original pitch into a spoiler. Much has been changed since then, but I wanted to preserve the timeline.<Edit>
No. 137-M was born into one of the many Workercamps that dot the landscape of the Ormosian countryside. He had never known life outside the walls of Workcamp 78. All he knew of the outside world, before his escape, was what he learned from fellow workers in the camp. A man could find himself in a Workcamp for any number of reasons, failing to report suspicious activity, taking the Lord’s name in vain, failing to help a “brother” in need, etc., mostly somewhat minor infractions. No. 137-M found himself in this particular camp for the simple reason that he was born there. Although the men’s and women’s camps were kept separately, they did occasionally intermingle for various reasons. This inevitably led to some unfortunate circumstances. Even The Brotherhood missed things occasionally. This is precisely what occurred in No. 137-M’s case. His parents met, somehow found a spare moment when The Brotherhood wasn’t paying attention, and 9 months later, No. 137-M was born. Of course The Brotherhood quickly found out about the pregnancy and transferred No. 137-M’s father to a Correction Camp. The policy for a pregnant woman in a camp was a bit different though. No. 137-M’s mother, like all others in her situation previously, was forced to carry No. 137-M to full term, where he was then extracted, given a number, and his mother given the same fate as his father before her. The policy for those born in a camp was for that child to remain in a Workcamp for all their days. After all, they were born from sin, and needed to suffer because of that. At least that’s the way The Brotherhood saw it. A man could certainly find himself in a myriad of worse camps, so overall a Workcamp wasn’t so bad. Even a life of freedom wasn’t so much better than life in a Workcamp, or so No. 137-M was told. People said that the drones, implants, and overall lack of privacy were as commonplace on the outside as they were within the camp’s walls. If people stepped out of line, or even questioned Brotherhood propaganda, they would be sent to one of the various camps, depending on their infraction. That is if they weren’t “corrected” with one of The Brotherhood’s many behavior modification chips. When The Brotherhood first came to be known, they spoke of brotherhood, love, and watching out for your fellow man. Brother Dhal ran for office on the slogan “I am my brother’s keeper!” Few knew this was what he meant.
Still, No. 137-M dreamed of life on the outside. During his years in the Workcamp, No. 137-M was befriended by many of the workers that came and went through the camp. Many of them spoke of a rebellion against the oppressive Brotherhood regime. This idea excited No. 137 from a very early age, and he set out to acquire as much knowledge and information as he could in hopes of one day escaping and joining the rebellion. Little did he know that he would end up leading it.
Below are some cards I made for the DCC when I first thought of the Brotherhood of Ormos idea. Please realize that these cards are only meant to try to help convey the idea, and should not be considered as submissions for the set. We are not ready to begin making cards yet.
Moratorium
Instant (U)
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard. Spells that share a same name with that spell can't be cast this turn.
"I'm sorry friend, The Brotherhood has issued a temporary injunction against such activity."
Detector Drone
Artifact Creature - Drone (R)
Flash
Flying, hexproof
: Until end of turn, creatures with hexproof may be targeted as though they didn't have hexproof. "Usually, by the time you know it's there, it's already too late."
0/3
Docility Chip
Artifact - Equipment (U)
You may equip Docility Chip to creatures you don't control
Equipped creature can't attack or block.
Equip
"If sermons and The Ancient Writings can't get you to change your wicked ways, perhaps we need to try something else."
-Big Brother Javal
Brotherhood Inspector
Creature - Human Advisor (U)
Brotherhood Inspector can't be blocked.
Opponents play with the top card of their library revealed.
Whenever Brotherhood Inspector deals combat damage to a player, you may look at that player's hand. "Secrets degrade the moral fabric of society. If one is doing nothing wrong, one has no need to keep secrets."
–Big Brother Dhal
1/3
Militant Reformist
Creature - Human Rebel (R)
Opponents can't cast instants and/or sorceries if they have one or more cards in their graveyard.
: Exile target player's graveyard, then put a +1/+1 counter on Militant Reformist. Only an opponent may activate this ability.
2/2
"Sometimes, in order to move forward, one must forget the past."
- 137-M
Brotherhood Workcamp
Enchantment (R)
When Brotherhood Workcamp enters the battlefield, exile all creatures until Brotherhood Workcamp leaves the battlefield.
With word of the rebellion spreading, The Brotherhood began to send more and more people to the workcamps.
Brotherhood Program
Enchantment - Law
Creatures can't attack or block alone.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Here are some of my rambling thoughts/questions about the block. I’m sorry they aren’t put together very well, I just want to get a dialogue going.
First off, the block’s main story is about an oppressive theocratic, fascist regime and the rebellion against it.
The block takes heavy influence from dystopian future novels such as 1984, Brave New World, A Handmaid’s Tale, etc. (Picture how Greek mythology influenced Theros, but probably a little less obvious.)
I’m picturing the block having a fairly strong artifact presence, but I don’t really want it to be out and out artifact themed.
I see white as playing the role of the primary “evil” color in the block. The other colors will be represented in The Brotherhood, but it should be based in white.
I’m not sure how long The Brotherhood has been in power. What do you guys think? I’m thinking 20 to 50 years? I could be way off on this though. I’m just thinking that it has been a while, but not forever.
Do we like the story of 137-M that I’ve laid out above? If so, do we begin with his escape? Or does it come during the 1st set? Or perhaps the 2nd set?
What creature types do we want inhabiting Ormos? I’m having a hard time picturing Elves in the environment that is in my head. I can picture Goblins though. I can also see Vedalken for some reason. One thought I’ve had recently is to make the block only contain Humans and artifact creatures, but that might be a bit boring. I’m picturing a somewhat sterile environment, although I’m not sure I really want to go too far down the technology route. I want cards like Detector Drone and Docility Chip to be more magic based than tech based. How far down the tech route does everybody else think we should go?
One of the block’s major themes is lack of privacy and government intrusiveness and restriction. I want people to feel like they need to go to great lengths to hide anything from The Brotherhood. I’m thinking the rebels will need a pretty intricate way to keep themselves hidden from The Brotherhood. I definitely don’t see a lot of out and out battles in the 1st set at least. I see covert actions and symbolic acts of defiance. I think the 1st set might want to be more about planning and recruiting for the rebels.
I currently have no ideas for any mechanics; accept the chip idea, which is just equipment that attaches to enemy creatures. I think it fits the theme of the block well though. I would love to do something like this for the rebels: “Effects that do not target this creature, have no effect on this creature.” I’m not sure that even works though. I think it represents someone not following the laws well though.
Do we want multi-colored cards in the set? Even though I have one in my example cards, I’m thinking we want very few, maybe none if artifacts end up playing a major role.
Who are the planeswalkers in the set? Why do they tolerate The Brotherhood? Perhaps, the founder of The Brotherhood is a planeswalker? I would love to see 137-M become a planeswalker as a twist. Or perhaps his spark ignited while he was in the workcamp, and he planeswalked away as his means of escape? I’m not sure I like him starting as a planeswalker though, I just wanted to put that out there.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
hmmm... Maybe we could have elves if... Does the brotherhood control ALL of the plane? Like could there be secluded wilds where the elves and maybe some humans hide from the prying grip of the brotherhood? Maybe they're slowly being discovered as the cities expand? Perhaps the rumors and premise of people living outside the state are what's stirring rebellion? They could hate the brotherhood just as much or maybe they just want to be left alone.
As for the leader... Maybe the plane was embroiled in war before the brotherhood. The leader sees individuality and wild emotions as the root of the conflict, and establishes the brotherhood as a way to "save" the world. As a planeswalker he sees the horror of war as soldiers ransack his village for fun, and he ignites, landing on esper, or maybe fiora, where the governing body controls the populace with fear, secrets,and magic. But there's peace on these planes so he sees them as ideal, and emotions as evil.
Mechanical note: Detain as a brotherhood mechanic? Do we want the rebel creature type? If so, do we want their "search for more rebels" mechanic?
Just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
Edit: Revealing opponent's hand and do things depending on whats revealed? A brotherhood mechanic.
I’m picturing the block having a fairly strong artifact presence, but I don’t really want it to be out and out artifact themed.
Say about how much tribal was in Innistrad? Just a secondary theme.
I see white as playing the role of the primary “evil” color in the block. The other colors will be represented in The Brotherhood, but it should be based in white.
Evil white is the most interesting thing in this block in my opinion. It's something we see very rarely in actual Magic. About the colors, also to answer to Indighost's last pm (by the way - Indighost: come here!), I picture both the Brotherhood and the rebels to be in all five colors but obviously centered differently: the Brotherhood just needs to be centered in white and blue, and having the rebels be centered in red and black would be the best option in my opinion. Green could either be midway, or could join the rebels, making them mainly Jund colored.
I’m not sure how long The Brotherhood has been in power. What do you guys think? I’m thinking 20 to 50 years? I could be way off on this though. I’m just thinking that it has been a while, but not forever.
Real fascism in Italy stayed in power for almost exactly 20 years. Here in Italy it's known as "il ventennio (fascista)", which could be translated to something like "the two (fascist) decades". We can have the Brotherhood be in power since a longer time, no problem about it, but given the sources I'd say about 20 years is a good start.
Do we like the story of 137-M that I’ve laid out above? If so, do we begin with his escape? Or does it come during the 1st set? Or perhaps the 2nd set?
I do like it. The actual rebellion needs to be in the second set though. In the first set, we experience what the government of the Brotherhood is like and we get to know the world. In the second set, 137-M escapes and leads the rebellion. I don't think it could be any other way realistically.
What creature types do we want inhabiting Ormos? I’m having a hard time picturing Elves in the environment that is in my head. I can picture Goblins though. I can also see Vedalken for some reason.
Me too. I agree with all this.
One thought I’ve had recently is to make the block only contain Humans and artifact creatures, but that might be a bit boring.
Definitely. Having only Humans sounds like a bad idea. In Extinctia we have no Humans, but that's nowhere as restrictive as having only Humans would be. I like the idea of keeping the variety in creature types to a minimum though to show the "sterile environment", but having only one creature type is too restrictive. I'd say let's use only few creature types that really make sense in Ormos.
How far down the tech route does everybody else think we should go?
As far as we can without having this feel like Space: the Convergence (the science fiction parody of MTG from an April 1st of some years ago, for those who don't know what I'm talking about). Certainly more than the average Magic set but not so much that it feels the focus of the block.
One of the block’s major themes is lack of privacy and government intrusiveness and restriction. I want people to feel like they need to go to great lengths to hide anything from The Brotherhood.
That sounds almost like a design goal! This could be easily refined into one.
I’m thinking the rebels will need a pretty intricate way to keep themselves hidden from The Brotherhood. I definitely don’t see a lot of out and out battles in the 1st set at least. I see covert actions and symbolic acts of defiance. I think the 1st set might want to be more about planning and recruiting for the rebels.
Definitely agree. Let the rebels just plan and recruit in the first set, then they will be the protagonists in the second one!
I currently have no ideas for any mechanics; accept the chip idea, which is just equipment that attaches to enemy creatures. I think it fits the theme of the block well though.
Chip (This Equipment can only (?) be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
Do Chips equip only to opposing creatures or they can also equip your own? I feel the second sentence is needed as reminder text for less experienced players. Another name I could see for this mechanic is Implant. This could also be implemented as an artifact subtype, so that we can have cards caring about them ("deal damage to target player equal to the number of Chips equipped to creatures he/she controls", "draw a card if you control a Chip", "search your library for a Chip card", etc...).
This can also be what mechanically generates the artifact subtheme we talked about before. What about actually turning it into an Equipment subtheme? With this mechanic and white being both the color that most interacts with Equipment and the main color of the Brotherhood, it all comes together really nicely! Too nicely to pass in my opinion, even though we might still want to make some non-Equipment artifacts, like drones and such.
I would love to do something like this for the rebels: “Effects that do not target this creature, have no effect on this creature.” I’m not sure that even works though. I think it represents someone not following the laws well though.
I don't think this works in the rules. I'll have to think about this a bit more. I'll come back to you with something about this later.
Do we want multi-colored cards in the set? Even though I have one in my example cards, I’m thinking we want very few, maybe none if artifacts end up playing a major role.
Agreed, though large sets these days almost always have the "multicolored draft" cycle at uncommon to help define what the different color pairs do in limited. Actually, we can still have that as long as those artifacts aren't colored. Any two-colored archetype won't have any particular troubles in casting artifacts, certainly no more than monocolored decks. Actually, it could even help with color screw.
Who are the planeswalkers in the set? Why do they tolerate The Brotherhood? Perhaps, the founder of The Brotherhood is a planeswalker?
The latter sounds like a very good idea to me, even if I don't know who that could be.
I would love to see 137-M become a planeswalker as a twist. Or perhaps his spark ignited while he was in the workcamp, and he planeswalked away as his means of escape? I’m not sure I like him starting as a planeswalker though, I just wanted to put that out there.
Yes, I think the story just wants him to become a planeswalker, but no, I don't like that his spark igniting is his way of escape. He still needs to lead the rebellion in the second set, and if he's already a planeswalker than why would he do that rather that just planeswalk away? His spark needs to ignite with the rebellion somehow, and his planeswalker card needs to be in the second set. He has to lead the rebellion, then something that happens during the rebellion makes his spark ignite, and then after the rebellion he can planeswalk away. I think this needs to be his story. I'd also like him to take a real name as a planeswalker, kind of like Kytheon Iora became Gideon Jura, but that needs to be the last thing to happen in the second set, the conclusion of our story.
Another idea: what about showing him as a legendary creature in the first set while he's working in the camp and then as a planeswalker in the second set to show his progression as the leader of the rebellion? I'd love to do this, it shows the character progression really nicely!
Here are some links for reference...
Thanks, I'll definitely need to check those.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Just chiming in to say that I'm excited to see where this project goes. I'd definitely go with 137-M is a legendary creature turned planeswalker. He wouldn't planeswalk away until his brothers and sisters are free, he's been brought up in such a white environment he can't imagine not saving them. Of course, he's also red because he values freedom and emotions. RW is exactly where he wants to be. When I read his story, it reminded me of my old Implant mechanic - artifact creatures that become equipment like Bestow. It'd be like security droids that can either be on patrol or fixated on a particular individual. Feel free to use or discard it per the set's needs.
Thought Processor3
Artifact Creature - Construct (U)
Implant 4(4: Thought Processor becomes an Equipment attached to target creature you control. Implant only as a sorcery.)
Equipped creature gets +2/+2.
Whenever Thought Processor or equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, look at that player's hand.
2/2
hmmm... Maybe we could have elves if... Does the brotherhood control ALL of the plane? Like could there be secluded wilds where the elves and maybe some humans hide from the prying grip of the brotherhood? Maybe they're slowly being discovered as the cities expand? Perhaps the rumors and premise of people living outside the state are what's stirring rebellion? They could hate the brotherhood just as much or maybe they just want to be left alone.
Sorry I didn't see your post at first, you must have posted right while I was writing my own post above. I could also see something like this working. I still think we shouldn't have too many creature types in the whole set. This doesn't feel like a world with much variety of lifeforms.
As for the leader... Maybe the plane was embroiled in war before the brotherhood. The leader sees individuality and wild emotions as the root of the conflict, and establishes the brotherhood as a way to "save" the world. As a planeswalker he sees the horror of war as soldiers ransack his village for fun, and he ignites, landing on esper, or maybe fiora, where the governing body controls the populace with fear, secrets,and magic. But there's peace on these planes so he sees them as ideal, and emotions as evil.
I like this very very much. He needs to be a white/blue planeswalker (white because of the pseudo-fascist nature of his government and blue for the "hating emotions" part. He also needs to be in the first set. He and 137-M makes two native Ormosian planeswalkers, I'd say it's enough given how rare the planeswalker spark is supposed to be. The other planeswakers (other two in the first set and another one in the second) should be either existing returning planeswalkers or new planeswalkers but coming from other planes. Also, as both the leader (he really needs a name) and 137-M want to be white (as Piar rightfully noticed for 137-M), I'd prefer to avoid white on the other three planeswalkers. Do we want to think who they might be now or later?
Mechanical note: Detain as a brotherhood mechanic?
This is a very good idea in my opinion. We need a returning mechanic, and detain makes perfect sense as a Brotherhood mechanic to me. I support this.
Do we want the rebel creature type? If so, do we want their "search for more rebels" mechanic?
My opinion is that we do want the Rebel creature type, but we do NOT want the rebel mechanic. If I recall correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong, as I wasn't playing yet at that time, I only saw the few Rebels in Time Spiral block), the rebel mechanic is white/black, while our rebels will be black/red or Jund colored. Especially if we're using detain as a returning mechanic, I'd say we give the Rebels a new mechanic.
Revealing opponent's hand and do things depending on whats revealed? A brotherhood mechanic.
I can see this as a mini-theme for a few cards, but not as a keyword mechanic. Detain is a much better fit for that.
Also, how many keyworded mechanics do we want? Certainly one for the Brotherhood (could be detain) and one for the Rebels, then a couple more generic ones everyone can have? I made research for Extinctia when we were deciding keywords, and I discovered the vast majority of sets since the new set size (Shards of Alara) has four mechanics.
Just chiming in to say that I'm excited to see where this project goes.
Hi! Don't worry, I'm not going to abandon Extinctia, I'm doing both at the same time. I think I can make it.
137-M ... RW is exactly where he wants to be.
Your reasoning is perfect and I fully support it. The only doubt I have is if we want his legendary creature card in the first set be already multicolored or monowhite turning red/white as a planeswalker.
Implant mechanic
I think it will have to do a lot with the design goal. If we want to make the players feel the oppression of the pseudo-fascist regime in gameplay, I think the Chips are better. If we just want to have a more generic technological feel, we might use Implants. I think the story leads us towards the former.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Awesome! I'm glad to see the conversation starting. I'm also glad to see Piar pop in. Feel free to do so as much as you like Piar.
This is a lot of stuff, I'll try to address as much as I can tonight.
I do feel like The Brotherhood controls the whole plane, but I'm not entirely opposed to it if everybody else thinks they shouldn't. I see the Brotherhood consisting of only Humans (maybe Vedalken), and I see them as looking down on the other races of Ormos. This feels ok to me with Goblins, but not Elves. We could have some creatures like Trolls and Zombies in the wilds of the plane though.
As far as the leader of the Brotherhood (Brother Dahl? Big Brother Dahl? Father Dahl?) is concerned, I definitely see him as planeswalker, but I don't think he needs to be native to Ormos. I almost think it might be better if he wasn't. I definitely think he rises to power because of some sort of strife on the plane (war, famine, environmental collapse....). I think he takes advantage of this strife to gain power though, not because he actually cares about stopping it. Maybe The Lead Brother has some ulterior motive? Although I see the Brotherhood in W/U, I kind of see the leader in W/B or maybe W/U/B. Maybe he doesn't even believe in what he is teaching through the religion of The Brotherhood? The rest of The Brotherhood is devoutly religious, while he is only pretending to be for power. I also am wondering if it might be a good idea for him to be keeping the fact that he is a planeswalker secret? He could use this to his advantage by claiming that his power is granted to him by whatever god their religion is based on. This would only work if the citizens of Ormos had never seen another planeswalker though, and I'm not sure how we could make that work. (BTW, the secret planeswalker idea is actually something bravelion mentioned pertaining to a different set idea. Just to give proper credit.) To sum up, right now, I kinda like the idea of "Brother Dahl" being a secret planeswalking artificer from another plane that is using a phony religion to manipulate the citizens of Ormos and gain power. I'm not sure why he is doing all this though. A totally crazy thought just popped into my head as I was writing this. Is there anyway "Brother Dahl" could actually be Tezzeret in disguise? He could use the name Brother Dahl in the 1st set, but then be revealed to be Tezzeret in the second set. This twist would be hidden from the public until it actually occurred. This could be totally crazy though, I'm not sure where we last left Tezzeret in the story. He could be dead for all I remember. I think we should hold off on thinking about the other walkers until we get things a little more ironed out. It'll be clearer to us what they need to be then.
Detain popped into my head as a potential returning mechanic in the set also. We may be onto something there.
I definitely was planning to use the Rebel creature type, but I wasn't planning on using the Rebel mechanic. I agree with Lion 100% on this one.
I'm not sure I really want an artifact theme necessarily, I just see more than the average amount of artifacts in the set due to the drones and chips and surveillance devices and whatnot.
To be honest, I actually do think I like the term implant better. I'm still not totally sure about the chip/implant idea though. If we did do it, I can only see them having negative effects, so I don't picture anybody wanting to attach it to a creature they control anyway. That said, I'm not sure it matters if it says it can only be attached to creatures your opponents control. I pictured some chips being planted in people secretly, and used as a way for The Brotherhood to spy on people, and maybe even control their thoughts remotely. In this scenario, I picture the rebellion using dogs as a way to detect these chips. Think Terminator (just the dog part).
I'm all for the first set showing life on Ormos as it has been, while the rebellion is just getting started. The second set would then show the actual rebellion. I also agree that 137-M should be a creature in the first set, then his spark ignites in the second set. I also agree with Piar that he would never abandon his plane. When I suggested he planeswalked away as a means of escape, I just meant to escape the Workcamp, he would definitely return to Ormos to fight The Brotherhood. I agree that he should get a name when he becomes a planewalker, but in the first set I definitely think he need to just be a number. It doesn't have to be 137-M, but it should be something similar.
I definitely see The Brotherhood being centered in W/U, but I'm having a hard time seeing the rebellion as black. If anything, I see it in Naya colors. I have no problem seeing white as evil, but I do have a hard time seeing black as good, which is what I picture the rebellion being. Don't get me wrong, I see black cards in the rebellion, I just have a hard time seeing black as one of the rebellion's primary colors.
I didn't think the rebellion ability I suggested before worked in the rules, but I still like the overall idea. I think global/non-targeting effects (Wraths and whatnot) are a good representation of law, and not being affected by them seems like a good representation of breaking the law. I wish there was someway this could work. Here's what I'm talking about for reference: Lawless (Effects that do not target this creature have no effect on this creature.)
Could we create some sort of mechanic that represents a caste system? Something that is more and more beneficial the higher the creature's station in society.
I've got a lot more swirling around in my head, but that is all I have time for right now. I'm sorry my thoughts aren't put together in a more coherent way, but I'm really busy this weekend and I wanted to keep the conversation going.
Edit: BTW, I definitely don't want Ormos to interfere with the work bravelion is doing on Extinctia. I don't mind if Ormos moves a little slow at first anyway. I have a lot of RL responsibilities, if Ormos moved too quickly, I might not be able to keep up. That said, I do hope we can keep a steady pace going on it.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
• I too feel like the Brotherhood has to control the whole plane. We want it to be an oppressive presence that's felt everywhere on Ormos. I can see any kind of wildlife out of the cities. By the way, we need to start thinking of something about them: how many cities there are? What is the capital? What do they look like? Are they connected to different colors as in Theros for example (I think the answer to this should be no)?
• I like the leader to be called Brother Dahl. "Big Brother Dahl" is too reminiscent of the tv show, which at least here in Italy, but I think everywhere, is quite divisive and not so well seen. "Father Dahl" clashes with the name "Brotherhood" to me. I think "Brother Dahl" is just perfect. We need to investigate his backstory. The way you describe him is definitely white/black. I don't see much blue in him. And this already has a very important consequence:
• Black needs to be on the Brotherhood side. So the colors just have to be WUB for the Brotherhood and RGW for the Rebels, with white playing sort of a pivot role: it shows its evil fascist side with the Brotherhood and its good side with the Rebels. I think we have to accept this as true now and build on it.
• Thanks for the credit on the secret planeswalker thing, even if I still totally plan to do it anyway when (not if) I'll get to that idea I told you about. In my head I pictured Brother Dahl differently though: what if the Brotherhood religion is centered on him as the god? Kind of like in the Roman Empire, where the emperor was worshipped like a god. Then he can justify very well his powers: "Of course you can't do that, you're just worshippers and I am your god!" It also fits very nicely with him actually looking for power, and the more I think of it the more it makes real sense to me. That indeed has to mean that either no planeswalker has been to Ormos before (and we'd have to justify that somehow), or that planeswalkers have been there in the past, but no Ormosian has ever seen one in the act of planeswalking, so they just saw them as any other living being.
• About Tezzeret, he's not dead, but the last we know of him is from the famous article "Checking in on the planeswalkers" from a year ago, where it's said that:
Tezzeret (is currently an) Agent of the dragon. Currently an agent of Nicol Bolas, Tezzeret was sent to monitor Phyrexia's growing influence over Mirrodin. He gained an interest in Phyrexia's mechanical civilization and their philosophy of self-perfection by metal, and saw an opportunity to usurp Karn's rulership and take command of New Phyrexia. But that ultimately proved a failed experiment, as Elspeth, Koth, and Venser rescued Karn and put an end to Tezzeret's ambitions. Nicol Bolas summoned Tezzeret back to him and tasked him with a new mission elsewhere.
So, unless we want that new mission to have something to do with Ormos (and that could clash with whatever they do when they'll bring him back), I'd say he's out. What if we just say Brother Dahl is from an unknown plane? We have a few planeswalkers we don't know the home plane of: Ashiok comes to mind, I think Garruk is another, and about Elspeth we just know that she's from a plane invaded by the Phyrexians (not Mirrodin, another one) but we don't know which one. Chandra, Jace, and Liliana too until Origins, and Gideon was just speculated.
• Chips/implants obviously have to have negative effects. Now I'm more inclined to say "let Johnny do strange things targeting his own creatures" and have the mechanic be:
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
An example:
Weakening Chip3
Artifact - Equipment Implant (C)
Equipped creature gets -2/-0.
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
Equip 2
Mana costs are just examples and not meant to be balanced. I gave it a subtype so we can have cards that interact with Implants. We should be very careful with Implants that give -N to toughness, as they could be used as repeatable removal.
I like this mechanic, even though it may not have that big of a design space, but there is enough for one set in my opinion. I think this mechanic represents really well the feeling of oppression we want to give players. And about that:
• What about the design goal? What experience do we want players to have? I'll try:
We want to make players feel the oppression of the Brotherhood regime through gameplay and the player can feel either the oppressor or the rebel that struggles to break free of it, depending mainly on which colors he's playing.
What do you all on the team think about this?
• About 137-M: I didn't understand you meant that about his spark igniting. My bad. I really like your version of the story: while in the Workcamp, one day he was particularly oppressed and as a result his spark ignites sending him in whatever plane (Which one?). (Here is the end of set 1. Bridge between the sets:) On that plane, he realizes he's now free and experiences what freedom is like for the first time in his life. As he's never had a real name, he either picks one or is granted one somehow (Which is his new name? How exactly does he gain it?) on that plane (like Kytheon Iora that became Gideon Jura on Bant). In short time, he decides that all his fellow citizens deserve that same freedom and so he comes to the decision to try to strike down the Brotherhood. (End of the bridge. In set 2:) He returns to Ormos and leads the successful rebellion. After the rebellion, he can either stay on Ormos to make sure something like that never happens again, or decide that now that his fellow citizens are free he's also free to explore the multiverse.
How do you all on the team feel about this as his story?
I would keep 137-M as his number. I see no real reason to change it. His card in set 1 could be something like:
137-M, Camp WorkerW(not one mana, just to symbolize that he's monowhite)
Creature - Human (does he have a class?) (M) (I think he has to be mythic, at least because of story reasons)
...
• You're right, the proposed mechanic for the Rebels just doesn't work in the rules. I think we should think of something else in that same space, where the starting point is: "breaking the law". By the way, that fits perfectly in red philosophically.
• The caste mechanic is another mechanic. It looks like we're going for a split à la Scars of Mirrodin: separate mechanics for the Brotherhood (detain, implant, and this caste mechanic) and for the Rebels (the law-breaking mechanic and possibly another new one). That is a structure I would like and support. In set 1 the Brotherhood is prevalent, so there are more cards with the Brotherhood mechanics, while in set 2 the Rebels are prevalent, so there there are more cards with the Rebels mechanics. To show the shift even better, we can have the Brotherhood drop a mechanic in set 2 (implant?) and maybe give the Rebels a new additional one if there is room. This means the caste mechanics has to make sense in Esper colors, while the law-breaking mechanic in Naya colors. "Something that is more and more beneficial the higher the creature's station in society" is a good goal for this mechanic, but the problem is: mechanically, what does represent a "creature's station in society"? I don't think we want something like level up, when you get higher in level. In a caste system, I can't see such a progression. So we have to find something that is naturally present on a Magic card and build on that. Maybe CMC could represent the caste level of the creature? Or power? I don't see toughness being what we're looking for flavorfully. Some sort of CMC based mechanic could be interesting and original.
• Don't worry about the time overlap with Extinctia. I will tell you myself if I ever have any such problem, but for now I'm able to follow both with no problems.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I love just about everything you're saying bravelion, and will post more thoughts later, but for now...What if the caste mechanic had something to do with locking a creature into its original form. This would represent the idea that you are born into your role with no real chance of advancement. I'll think about this a bit and elaborate later.
Edit: Maybe something that limits a creature's abilities or power and toughness depending on its CMC. I'm not sure there's a mechanic there, but a definitely an enchantment or something.
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(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
I just had a thought that I want put out there. When I was trying to think of a returning mechanic for Ormos, the two that came to mind were detain and fateseal. I think that fateseal does an excellent job of representing the fact that The Brotherhood has more control over your future than you do. If we did use fateseal instead of detain, the other Brotherhood mechanic could be something that makes an opponent reveal the top card of his or her library, then if some criteria is met, <effect>. It would kinda be like the opposite of kinship in a way. It would also represent The Brotherhood searching for contraband, while fateseal would work to show them planting this contraband themselves from time to time. This is just a thought though, I'll still post more addressing lion's post later.
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(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
When I was trying to think of a returning mechanic for Ormos, the two that came to mind were detain and fateseal...
While I can see how fateseal is a good fit thematically, it's a really really unfun mechanic, as bad as a mechanic can be in that regard. I'd really like (but read this as "I want") to avoid it. Between the two, I don't feel there is any possibility of choice. It's 100% detain without a doubt.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Beware of stepping on green's toe. This is a really green concept philosophically, and the Brotherhood is not meant to be green.
I'm not really sure how this is green. Isn't green about growth and the wild? What I'm talking about is stagnation and control. Philosophically, Godhead of Awe represents what I'm trying to say rather well. Maybe something like "Creatures can't have power greater than their converted mana cost." or "This creature has protection from creatures with converted man less than it." I am coming up with these as I write this, they are just meant to provoke thought.
While I can see how fateseal is a good fit thematically, it's a really really unfun mechanic, as bad as a mechanic can be in that regard. I'd really like (but read this as "I want") to avoid it. Between the two, I don't feel there is any possibility of choice. It's 100% detain without a doubt.
I'm fine with this. I just wanted to put the idea out there.
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(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Bravelion's comments are in bold, my comments follow...
• I too feel like the Brotherhood has to control the whole plane. We want it to be an oppressive presence that's felt everywhere on Ormos. I can see any kind of wildlife out of the cities. By the way, we need to start thinking of something about them: how many cities there are? What is the capital? What do they look like? Are they connected to different colors as in Theros for example (I think the answer to this should be no)?
I agree that The Brotherhood runs the whole plane. What if the Brotherhood is in the capital with the “free” citizens of Ormos, but they’ve converted all the other cities into various camps? I definitely need to think more about the lay of the land. I agree that the cities don’t need to be connected to different colors.
• I like the leader to be called Brother Dahl. "Big Brother Dahl" is too reminiscent of the tv show, which at least here in Italy, but I think everywhere, is quite divisive and not so well seen. "Father Dahl" clashes with the name "Brotherhood" to me. I think "Brother Dahl" is just perfect. We need to investigate his backstory. The way you describe him is definitely white/black. I don't see much blue in him. And this already has a very important consequence:
Big Brother is synonymous with the novel 1984, that is why it was suggested. I think the TV show actually takes its name from the novel. I’ve never actually seen it. I’m fine with just Brother Dahl though. I see Brother Dahl as partially blue because I picture him as a an artificer. He doesn’t have to be, but I think we could make the chips, drones and whatnot artifacts of his invention. Of course, with the existence of Tezzeret, what I am thinking might be redundant.
• Black needs to be on the Brotherhood side. So the colors just have to be WUB for the Brotherhood and RGW for the Rebels, with white playing sort of a pivot role: it shows its evil fascist side with the Brotherhood and its good side with the Rebels. I think we have to accept this as true now and build on it.
Agreed. More and more, I’m thinking one of the main themes of the set would be to show the how white can be taken too far if you're not careful. I think showing white in both factions would be a good way to express this. Justice and order are great until they hamper freedom and privacy.
• Thanks for the credit on the secret planeswalker thing, even if I still totally plan to do it anyway when (not if) I'll get to that idea I told you about. In my head I pictured Brother Dahl differently though: what if the Brotherhood religion is centered on him as the god? Kind of like in the Roman Empire, where the emperor was worshipped like a god. Then he can justify very well his powers: "Of course you can't do that, you're just worshippers and I am your god!" It also fits very nicely with him actually looking for power, and the more I think of it the more it makes real sense to me. That indeed has to mean that either no planeswalker has been to Ormos before (and we'd have to justify that somehow), or that planeswalkers have been there in the past, but no Ormosian has ever seen one in the act of planeswalking, so they just saw them as any other living being.
I always try to give credit where it is due. I don’t want to step on your toes and steal away an idea, I’m fine with it if you’d rather not use the secret planeswalker idea here. I really think it fits well though. I have also thought about the idea of Dahl being the god of his religion (I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread), I don’t think he has to be, but I think I’m fine either way. If you feel strongly about him being the god I’m fine with it. Another option would be for him to hijack an already existing religion (think Christian televangelists). This would allow us to make some citizens true believers looking to take back their religion. This is just a thought, I’m still fine with him claiming to be god himself. If we do go the route of him being god, I really think we need to go with Father Dahl though. He would be the “Father” to all the brothers (and sisters, although I see women being treated as second class citizens on Ormos, which is something we should discuss also).
• About Tezzeret, he's not dead, but the last we know of him is from the famous article "Checking in on the planeswalkers" from a year ago, where it's said that:
Tezzeret (is currently an) Agent of the dragon. Currently an agent of Nicol Bolas, Tezzeret was sent to monitor Phyrexia's growing influence over Mirrodin. He gained an interest in Phyrexia's mechanical civilization and their philosophy of self-perfection by metal, and saw an opportunity to usurp Karn's rulership and take command of New Phyrexia. But that ultimately proved a failed experiment, as Elspeth, Koth, and Venser rescued Karn and put an end to Tezzeret's ambitions. Nicol Bolas summoned Tezzeret back to him and tasked him with a new mission elsewhere.
So, unless we want that new mission to have something to do with Ormos (and that could clash with whatever they do when they'll bring him back), I'd say he's out. What if we just say Brother Dahl is from an unknown plane? We have a few planeswalkers we don't know the home plane of: Ashiok comes to mind, I think Garruk is another, and about Elspeth we just know that she's from a plane invaded by the Phyrexians (not Mirrodin, another one) but we don't know which one. Chandra, Jace, and Liliana too until Origins, and Gideon was just speculated.
I think it would be kinda cool if he turned out to be Tezzeret, and it sounds like it could actually fit the story. It would also help give us Brother Dahl’s motivation. But I guess it would be weird when Wizard’s actually picks his story back up. I’m not sure I care a lot about that, but if you do, we don’t have to think about it further.
• Chips/implants obviously have to have negative effects. Now I'm more inclined to say "let Johnny do strange things targeting his own creatures" and have the mechanic be:
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
An example:
Weakening Chip 3
Artifact - Equipment Implant (C)
Equipped creature gets -2/-0.
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
Equip 2
Mana costs are just examples and not meant to be balanced. I gave it a subtype so we can have cards that interact with Implants. We should be very careful with Implants that give -N to toughness, as they could be used as repeatable removal.
I like this mechanic, even though it may not have that big of a design space, but there is enough for one set in my opinion. I think this mechanic represents really well the feeling of oppression we want to give players. And about that:
I’m happy you like the chip idea, let’s do it.
• What about the design goal? What experience do we want players to have? I'll try:
We want to make players feel the oppression of the Brotherhood regime through gameplay and the player can feel either the oppressor or the rebel that struggles to break free of it, depending mainly on which colors he's playing.
What do you all on the team think about this?
It seems good. I’ll try writing one myself also, just as an exercise if for no other reason.
• About 137-M: I didn't understand you meant that about his spark igniting. My bad. I really like your version of the story: while in the Workcamp, one day he was particularly oppressed and as a result his spark ignites sending him in whatever plane (Which one?). (Here is the end of set 1. Bridge between the sets:) On that plane, he realizes he's now free and experiences what freedom is like for the first time in his life. As he's never had a real name, he either picks one or is granted one somehow (Which is his new name? How exactly does he gain it?) on that plane (like Kytheon Iora that became Gideon Jura on Bant). In short time, he decides that all his fellow citizens deserve that same freedom and so he comes to the decision to try to strike down the Brotherhood. (End of the bridge. In set 2:) He returns to Ormos and leads the successful rebellion. After the rebellion, he can either stay on Ormos to make sure something like that never happens again, or decide that now that his fellow citizens are free he's also free to explore the multiverse.
How do you all on the team feel about this as his story?
The only thing I would change is, I think 137-M is a very righteous and motivated person right from the beginning. He has been training to defeat the rebellion all his life (as much as one can in a workcamp). Although he has never experienced freedom, he still yearns for it. Basically, I think he has always intended to free the people of Ormos, even if he wasn’t really ever sure how he could do that. I’m not sure what plane he would planeswalk to, but I think it might be cool if he encounters a recurring planeswalker while there. That planeswalker could name him and take him under his wing (137-M is very confused by what has happened). This planeswalker could follow him back to Ormos for the 2nd set. Gideon is the 1st PW that pops into my head for this.
I would keep 137-M as his number. I see no real reason to change it. His card in set 1 could be something like:
137-M, Camp Worker W (not one mana, just to symbolize that he's monowhite)
Creature - Human (does he have a class?) (M) (I think he has to be mythic, at least because of story reasons)
I agree with all of this this. His class should be Rebel. He'll be a planeswalker in the second set, it would be weird if we used the Rebel creature type but the leader of the rebels wasn't a Rebel.
Even though the rebellion gets going in earnest during the second set, I still think the rebels are present and active in the first set. Right?
...
• You're right, the proposed mechanic for the Rebels just doesn't work in the rules. I think we should think of something else in that same space, where the starting point is: "breaking the law". By the way, that fits perfectly in red philosophically.
Everything that pops into my head for this doesn’t really work. I’m little stuck here. This set needs to have a lot of white effects that say that certain things can’t happen (to represent the restrictive laws), is there some way to make it so that a creature can ignore can’t effects? I think not. I really want the rebels to have some sort of backwards form of hexproof. Basically protection from nontargeting effects.
• The caste mechanic is another mechanic. It looks like we're going for a split à la Scars of Mirrodin: separate mechanics for the Brotherhood (detain, implant, and this caste mechanic) and for the Rebels (the law-breaking mechanic and possibly another new one). That is a structure I would like and support. In set 1 the Brotherhood is prevalent, so there are more cards with the Brotherhood mechanics, while in set 2 the Rebels are prevalent, so there there are more cards with the Rebels mechanics. To show the shift even better, we can have the Brotherhood drop a mechanic in set 2 (implant?) and maybe give the Rebels a new additional one if there is room. This means the caste mechanics has to make sense in Esper colors, while the law-breaking mechanic in Naya colors. "Something that is more and more beneficial the higher the creature's station in society" is a good goal for this mechanic, but the problem is: mechanically, what does represent a "creature's station in society"? I don't think we want something like level up, when you get higher in level. In a caste system, I can't see such a progression. So we have to find something that is naturally present on a Magic card and build on that. Maybe CMC could represent the caste level of the creature? Or power? I don't see toughness being what we're looking for flavorfully. Some sort of CMC based mechanic could be interesting and original.
I touch on this a bit in the post previous to this.
• Don't worry about the time overlap with Extinctia. I will tell you myself if I ever have any such problem, but for now I'm able to follow both with no problems.
I mostly just wanted to let the rest of the Extinctia team know that I wasn’t trying to steal you away.
Last but not least, I'd love to hear what Tilwin and Indighost's thoughts on this stuff are. Chime in any time guys, I don't want lion and I to make all the decisions, unless that is what you guys want. I'm fine if you'd both prefer to just make cards when the time comes, but if that's the case, I'd like to enlist a 5th to help contribute to the world building. It's also possible that you are both just busy right now, which is ok too. :)
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(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
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Green is not only about growth, nature and wildness. Unfortunately, MaRo is revisiting the color philosophy articles during these weeks and guess which one is the only one missing, that will be published in two days? The green one, of course! I totally recommend you check it out on Monday. Green is also about tradition, ancestry, maintaining the status quo, destiny, and so on. MaRo recently came up with catchphrases for what the colors want and what are the means they use to achieve that goal. It's a very good way to keep it all memorized. Let's see if I remember all of them:
White wants peace through structure.
Blue wants perfection through knowledge.
Black wants power through opportunity.
Red wants freedom through action.
Green wants acceptance through harmony (sometimes he also said "through wisdom").
The green one means green wants to accept the world as it is ("acceptance") because it's perfect the way it is, and to accept it one must first understand it. To understand it deeply, one must then enter in contact with the soul of the world and just feel it ("harmony"). This has consequences. From the first part derives the attention for nature (if the world is perfect as is we must let nature run it, without interference) and everything that is part of nature: and from here comes the focus on growth (both creature growth and land growth aka land fetching and land interactions in general), evolution, wildlife, and so on. From the second part derives the more "shamanistic" part of green: Elementals, land bonds, and such, the part of green we saw with the Temur essentially. Accepting the world that's perfect as it is also means wanting to keep it as perfect as it is now: from here comes the focus on the status quo, traditions, etc... And it also means accepting your role in the world as it is, because you're born what you had to be. You have a predetermined role (aka "destiny") in the perfect world, and you absolutely don't have to change it, but you must discover what it is and then embrace it. This is the key of the green/blue conflict: green says you are born into your role and you shouldn't change it but you should embrace it. Blue says you're born as a blank slate and you can become everything you want. The idea that you are born into a predetermined role is 100% green, no doubt.
This is the philosophical explanation, and I'm sure MaRo will talk at length about all of this on Monday. But I'm not saying it can't be done, the "predetermination" part is green at its core, but it can definitely make sense in white too. You mentioned stagnation and control. Stagnation meaning "keeping things as they are" can be various colors, depending on the motivation. Why do I want to keep things as they are?
• Because they are perfect as they are = green (no doubt on this)
• Because that lets me enforce my laws = white
• Because that lets me take or keep control of them and/or gives me the most information = blue
• Because that gives me power = black
What I was meaning is just to be careful to not go green's way about this, because the concept can be green. The Brotherhood obviously doesn't care if things are perfect as they are, but they do care about enforcing laws, keeping control, and having power. Thus, Esper colors.
Mechanically I was thinking more about using CMC as a parameter, something like "Creatures with CMC X (or less?) gain [BONUS]", or something like the 5 power theme in Naya but with CMC: "Target creature with CMC X (or less?) does such and such". One thing I'm certain is that we should try to avoid using protection, as it's no longer evergreen. I'll definitely have to think more about this.
I hope I've been able to clarify what I meant. If you need further explanation, you know where to find me! Or just wait for MaRo on Monday.
EDIT: You posted answers to my comments while I was writing this. The above is in reply to post #12. Below is the reply to post #13. Sorry for the confusion.
What if the Brotherhood is in the capital with the “free” citizens of Ormos, but they’ve converted all the other cities into various camps?
I like this idea, but are we sure we don't want any more actual cities beside the capital?
Big Brother is synonymous with the novel 1984...
Oops, it shows I have never read it!
I see Brother Dahl as partially blue because I picture him as an artificer. He doesn’t have to be, but I think we could make the chips, drones and whatnot artifacts of his invention.
Right, I didn't think of that. So he's definitely Esper colored.
I’m thinking one of the main themes of the set would be to show the how white can be taken too far if you're not careful. I think showing white in both factions would be a good way to express this. Justice and order are great until they hamper freedom and privacy.
This is exactly what I loved about the Ormos idea since you first pitched it. I definitely want to make this one of the main themes of the set.
I don’t want to step on your toes and steal away an idea, I’m fine with it if you’d rather not use the secret planeswalker idea here.
No, this is not what I meant. We can use it here without any problem, what I was saying was that even if we use it here I'm still going to use it in my future set too anyway.
If you feel strongly about him being the god I’m fine with it.
And here, at the contrary of the cities, I do feel strongly about this. I thought about it when I was writing one of my posts yestarday and it was like an enlightenment to me. Do you know when you're suddenly hit by an idea and you instinctively know it's the right idea? Well, that's how I feel about this. And yes, that makes "Father Dahl" not only make sense but be necessary.
I see women being treated as second class citizens on Ormos, which is something we should discuss also.
Agreed. This is a delicate point. The world feels like it wants to do that, but I don't think we actually should. We can have separate workcamps for men and women (as it was in real history I think), and we may have all the people in power be man, but I don't think we should go any further than that. It does not disturb me, but I really don't want to potentially hurt somebody else's feelings. We can also have a majority of our planeswalkers being male, but I think at least one female among the five in the block is due.
But I guess it would be weird when Wizard’s actually picks his story back up. I’m not sure I care a lot about that, but if you do, we don’t have to think about it further.
I'm honest: I do care about that. I don't want to have our work potentially be "ruined" by Wizard later. I raised this concern when brainstorming for Extinctia too. I'd like our worlds to feel like they could be part of the actual multiverse without contradictions. If we have a way for Bolas to care and send Tezzeret on Ormos and then calling him back to himself by the end of the block, it may be doable, but otherwise I'd prefer to avoid it.
I’m happy you like the chip idea, let’s do it.
I am happy that you like my implementation of your idea. Yeah, let's (try to) do this! (and let's hope playtest won't tell us they feel too oppressive...)
The only thing I would change is, I think 137-M is a very righteous and motivated person right from the beginning. He has been training to defeat the rebellion all his life (as much as one can in a workcamp). Although he has never experienced freedom, he still yearns for it. Basically, I think he has always intended to free the people of Ormos, even if he wasn’t really ever sure how he could do that.
I see this more as a refinement rather than a change. I'm ok with this. I may try to write a recap of his story in the next days.
I’m not sure what plane he would planeswalk to, but I think it might be cool if he encounters a recurring planeswalker while there. That planeswalker could name him and take him under his wing (137-M is very confused by what has happened). This planeswalker could follow him back to Ormos for the 2nd set. Gideon is the 1st PW that pops into my head for this.
Wonderful idea! I'd like to see what they do with Gideon on Zendikar before "hiring" him for Ormos, but there's time for that. Like above, what I care about is that his eventual involvement in Ormos doesn't create contradictions with actual canon. That's what I care about.
His class should be Rebel. He'll be a planeswalker in the second set, it would be weird if we used the Rebel creature type but the leader of the rebels wasn't a Rebel.
Even though the rebellion gets going in earnest during the second set, I still think the rebels are present and active in the first set. Right?
Right. I didn't think of that. So Human Rebel it is.
Everything that pops into my head for this doesn’t really work. I’m little stuck here.
Me too. That's definitely not easy.
Last but not least, I'd love to hear what Tilwin and Indighost's thoughts on this stuff are.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I'd love to reply to your post, but unfortunately I need to go to bed. One thing I would like to say is, I definitely need to re-read a couple of books soon. It has been so long since I've read 1984 and Brave New World that I only really remember the basic ideas, but I'm sure several mechanics and themes would come to me instantly upon re-reading them. Things like permanent limitation, thoughtcrimes and the Thought Police, and sleep learning are great sources for ideas, unfortunately my memory of them is foggy.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
No need to apologize for any confusion lion, it is probably me that is making things confusing with all my double and triple posts. Moving forward, would it be better if I just edit my last post? I just want to make sure what I am posting is seen. That said, I will respond to your last post in more detail later, but for now I have couple thoughts I would like to put out there....
Your thoughts on women as second class citizens being seen as offensive makes me think we should highlight it. What if 137-M is actually 137-F, and was female instead of male? I'm not positive we want that, but I think it would be pretty cool if it was a woman that led the rebels to freedom. After completely disregarding women as second class citizens, The Brotherhood is eventually overthrown by a rebellion led by one. Another thing that needs to be thought about is, why would the rebellion let some person (male or female) that just escaped a life in a workcamp be their leader? One thought is, if the people of Ormos don't know about planeswalkers, someone that suddenly appears that seems to have as much power as Father Dahl would be a great way to expose his sham. It would prove that he is no god, but just an ordinary planeswalker (not that planeswalkers are ordinary, but they are more ordinary than God). I think that works. What do others think of 137-F (in my mind the M in 137-M's name stands for male)?
I thought of this as an idea for the rebellion last night. I might even like it....
Indignant - Whenever <cardname> becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, <effect>.
Examples
Resentful Insurgent
Creature - Human Rebel
Haste Indignant - Whenever Resentful Insurgent becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, it deals 2 damage to that spell or ability's controller.
2/1
Hidden Revolutionary
Creature - Human Rebel
First strike Indignant - Whenever Hidden Revolutionary becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, exile Hidden Revolutionary, then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control.
4/3
This could also be:
Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, <effect>.
Resentful Insurgent
Creature - Human Rebel
Haste Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, Resentful Insurgent deals 2 damage to that spell or ability's controller.
2/1
Cardname
Enchantment
Rebel creatures you control get +1/+1 Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, put a 1/1 white and green Rebel creature token onto the battlefield.
I think either version does a good job of showing that the citizens of Ormos are getting fed up with The Brotherhood, and are starting to push back more on their rule. I think the second option is far more powerful, and also has more room for development. The second version could be seen on noncreature permanents even. Is it bad that it depends on your opponent to work? It doesn't do anything if your opponent isn't targeting your creatures, but neither does hexproof, and that's super strong. What do people think?
Edit: I wouldn't want the set to turn into a male vs female set at all, I just think that 137-M being 137-F might be an added element that makes the block even cooler. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
Edit2: I could see a romance between 137-F and whatever planeswalker finds her when she planeswalks away. MTG could use a good romance. By the way, this could still work even if we keep it as 137-M....what if Chandra was the one to find 137-M? I guess this wouldn't work though if we don't want to do anything that wouldn't work with a potential real future story line. Unless 137-whatever dies in some heroic fashion at the end of the story. That would make the romance short and passionate, and wouldn't interfere with any future story. It would just be a side story for some planeswalker. This is all pretty much just stream of consciousness thinking though, I'm not even sure I'm in favor of what I'm proposing myself.
BTW, if we do want another planeswalker to follow 137-M back to Ormos, wouldn't that planeswalker end up being co-leader in the rebellion? I think that a romance would make that make more sense, otherwise what's in it for the other planeswalker? 137-M is doing it because it's his/her home plane. Edit: The other plaeswalker is doing it because he/she is in love with 137-M/F. This would make it so that there is more than the usual time between the first and second set of the block though. It would be cool if the three set structure still existed. We could potentially planeswalk away from Ormos for a second small set that shows what happens while 137-M/F is gone on another plane. Then planeswalk back to Ormos for the final rebellion. This is probably just not possible though, since we are working to the new Magic structure. To be honest, this is the first time I've tried to make a block using the new 2 set structure, I think it impedes story telling. Stories need a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's like taking The Empire Strikes Back out of Star Wars! I guess Wizards is getting around this now by making the story a continuing arc from block to block, unfortunately we don't have that luxury.
I'm definitely going to have to write a synopsis of where we're at soon. I'm starting to get confused.
Edit3: Revisionist history is major theme in many dystopian novels, this could explain why the people of Ormos do not know about planeswalkers, they have been erased from history by Father Dahl. That would make it difficult to have more than one planeswalker (Father Dahl) in the set though. Perhaps Father Dahl has a planeswalker imprisoned that no one knows about. Or Father Dahl has installed a chip in him that prevents him from being able to planeswalk, but he still has his other powers. He could be the leader of the rebellion in the first set before 137-? escapes. Do we have to have 3 planeswalkers in the first set? What if the story really justifies not having that many?
I'm sorry, I'll try to stop going off on tangents at break neck speeds moving forward if I can. I still need to respond to lion's last post.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Your thoughts on women as second class citizens being seen as offensive makes me think we should highlight it...
Not by me, though, but someone could feel bad about it. Having 137 be female could help with that a LOT in my opinion.
After completely disregarding women as second class citizens, The Brotherhood is eventually overthrown by a rebellion led by one.
There is a really nice irony in this.
if the people of Ormos don't know about planeswalkers, someone that suddenly appears that seems to have as much power as Father Dahl would be a great way to expose his shame. It would prove that he is no god, but just an ordinary planeswalker (not that planeswalkers are ordinary, but they are more ordinary than God). I think that works.
It absolutely does work. I'd support it.
Indignant / Indignation
So essentially a reverse heroic? In theory it works but I really think it would have some problem in playtest, namely happening too rarely to be relevant. If I'm your opponent, I'd only target a creature with such an ability if I'm about to lose the game. It also would make the game less interactive instead of more.
romance
I'm not opposed to that, but as you say yourself, the male/female aspect, which romance is clearly a part of, should not be the focus of the block, just a side subtheme.
I'm definitely going to have to write a synopsis of where we're at soon. I'm starting to get confused.
Yes, me too. I'd say we stop for a moment, so that you have the time to write that and Indighost and Tilwin have the chance to join us and tell us their opinions.
Revisionist history is major theme in many dystopian novels, this could explain why the people of Ormos do not know about planeswalkers, they have been erased from history by Father Dahl. That would make it difficult to have more than one planeswalker (Father Dahl) in the set though. Perhaps Father Dahl has a planeswalker imprisoned that no one knows about. Or Father Dahl has installed a chip in him that prevents him from being able to planeswalk, but he still has his other powers. He could be the leader of the rebellion in the first set before 137-? escapes. Do we have to have 3 planeswalkers in the first set? What if the story really justifies not having that many?
I like this idea. That underlined "or" would need to be "and" in my opinion, otherwise he/she could just planeswalk away to escape from prison. I'm not sure the Rebels need a leader in the first set, they aren't as organized yet. In the new "two set paradigm", how MaRo has called it, the default is five planeswalkers per block, of which three in the large set and two in the small one. This is to keep the same number of planeswalkers in a year without core sets printing five or six of them in a bunch. We could probably find some solution: have planeswalkers with separate side stories (like Tibalt and Tamiyo on Innistrad), or maybe show some of those past planeswalkers Father Dahl erased every information about? I like this last thought. Our three in the first set could be Father Dahl, the imprisoned chipped planeswalker and one that visited Ormos long ago but Father Dahl erased every trace of his/her visit.
I'd say now let's pause for a moment, gather our thoughts and wait for opinions from others in the team.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I'd say now let's pause for a moment, gather our thoughts and wait for opinions from others in the team.
Good idea. The next post from either of us should be one organizing our thoughts up to this point. I'll do my best to that soon, but that's a good chunk of organized time, and I only get time in chaotic bursts.
Edit: One question.....Can you have an imprisoned planewalker, and a memory of a planeswalker be represented on cards? The imprisoned planeswalker I can kind of see (a "free" planeswalker with a chip I can totally see), but the memory of planeswalker seems weird to me. BTW, the difference beteen the planeswalker being imprisoned, and 137-M/F being imprisoned, is that at least peole know about 137-M/F, the planeswalker would need to be an Area 51 type secret.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
(a "free" planeswalker with a chip I can totally see)
And that's exactly what I meant.
but the memory of planeswalker seems weird to me
It is a bit weird indeed, it was just an idea for how to fit a third planeswalker. And anyway, what I meant was kind of Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury or Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath: WE are presented with that planeswalker's past visit to Ormos and we see him/her how he/she was back then when he/she visited, but only Father Dahl would know now. To say it in another way, it would be Father Dahl's memory, not the Ormosians' one (which doesn't exist because Father Dahl erased it).
the planeswalker would need to be an Area 51 type secret.
Yes, that's true, but if there were another planeswalker on Ormos, Father Dahl would definitely capture him/her, imprison him/her and somehow erase all eventual memories Ormosian citizen might have of him/her (might Father Dahl also be a mind mage?). He'd do this to preserve his power. As you said, when Ormosians discover he's not that unique, things will start to change, but we don't want that to happen yet.
Ok, now let's really pause for a moment and gather our thoughts!
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yes these are giant walls of text, which is why Lion and I stopped until I can post a summary of where we are. I didn't get to it last night, but I will put it up tonight for sure. We are still very much in the formative stages of the set. That's all I can say for now, I gotta to work.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
The proposed color split is WUB for the Brotherhood vs RGW for the Rebels with white playing a double role. The rest are unanswered question for now.
I might write a blog post too later (as I did with Extinctia) to better organize our thoughts, but that's in addition to Flatline's coming synopsis. Let's establish where we are before answering futher question (and we already have from both Indighost and Tilwin, but please add more if you have).
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Here is my attempt to summarize what has been discussed up to this point. I'm not the best when it comes to this sort of thing, we'd probably be better off with bravelion doing this sort of thing, but I don't want to stick him with all the work. Anyway, feel free to add on if you like bravelion.
My attempt at a design goal….
We want people to experience what life is like when white aligned philosophies are taken too far, when justice and order become oppressive laws and a homogenized existence.
The block is set on a plane that takes its cue from dystopian novels such as 1984. The plane is controlled by an oppressive, theocratic, totalitarian regime that calls itself The Brotherhood. The Brotherhood is led by a planeswalker named Father Dahl, who claims to be God. A rebellion against The Brotherhood has begun to gain steam. This rebellion will eventually be led by a person named 137-M (or possibly 137-F), who begins our story in a Brotherhood workcamp. 137 was born in the workcamp.
The Brotherhood is predominantly W/U/B.
The Rebellion is predominantly W/R/G. It uses the Rebel creature type, although it doesn’t use the old Rebel mechanic.
137 is a mono-white Human Rebel in the first set, and a W/R planeswalker in the second. He/she has lived all his/her life in a workcamp, which is where we find him/her in the first set. At the end of the first set, his/her spark ignites, and she planeswalks out of the workcamp to a plane yet to be determined. There he/she may or may not meet up with another planeswalker that he/she may or may not fall in love with. This planeswalker may or may not accompany 137 back to Ormos to aid in the rebellion. 137 will be given a name in the second set, possibly by the planeswalker he/she encounters there.
Father Dahl is the “God” of his religion. He is a planeswalking artificer that is most likely Esper colors. He rules the plane of Ormos with his strict religious laws, and by using his creations to keep a close eye on his people. Nobody knows that Father Dahl is a planeswalker. Father Dahl is not native to Ormos. Right?
The citizens of Ormos are completely unaware of the existence of planeswalkers. Father Dhal has had all record of them erased from history. (I think he’ll need to have been in power longer than we said before to make this work. Perhaps he has implanted himself with various devices that have allowed him to live longer than normal? This would help his God status.)
The set features a lot of artifacts, although there is not necessarily an artifact theme.
Lion and I have both agreed that we like the implant ability. It is an equipment subtype that can be attached to creatures your opponents control. They have negative effects.
The first set shows Ormos as it has been since Father Dahl came to rule. In this set, the rebellion is moving in covert ways to undermine The Brotherhood and recruit new members.
Detain is a returning mechanic for The Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood controls all of Ormos.
What was Ormos like before Father Dahl? How did he come to power? The citizens of Ormos must have known about planeswalkers when he first came to power, right?
What is the lay of the land on Ormos? What are the cities? What is the wilderness like?
What creatures inhabit Ormos? Lion and I were both saying that Elves don’t seem to fit, but Goblins, and possibly Vedalken do. We need more than that I think. Also, what is the wildlife like? To be honest, this is the thing I’m having the most difficult time coming up with. There are too many creatures that don’t seem to fit with what is in my head (Angels, Demons, Elves, Vampires), I think that’s a problem. Can we exclude a bunch of creatures that generally show up in every Magic set? Do we want to?
Do we want 137-M/F to be male or female? Do we like the meeting a planeswalker idea? Does that planeswalker follow him/her back to Ormos? Do they fall in love?
What other mechanics do we want? Brotherhood ideas…Something based on a caste system, perhaps dealing with CMC? Something dealing with reeducation or revising history? Something based on invasion of privacy? Rebellion ideas….Something to do with law breaking. Something dealing with how many creatures are in exile (to represent the rebel’s anger over losing more and more people to the camps). I suggested the ability below, although Lion thought it wasn’t interactive enough…
Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability you don’t control, <effect>.
This could be on any Rebel aligned permanent. Lion compared it to a reverse Heroic, and thought it wouldn’t come into play frequently enough. I feel like it would play more like a soft Hexproof for all your creatures, and would guarantee value should any of your creatures be removed outside of combat. I think it would setup interesting choices when you’re holding removal, but keep hoping to just get out a blocker. I think it would factor into gameplay quite a bit. It is meant to represent the fact that the citizens of Ormos are getting fed up with The Brotherhood’s oppressive ways, and are beginning to push back. The ability could also be called defiance.
Who are the other planeswalkers on Ormos? If planeswalkers other than Father Dahl exist on the plane, how is it that the existence of planeswalkers isn’t known by the Ormosians? (It was suggested that perhaps Dahl has implanted a chip in (and possibly imprisoned) another planeswalker, that has stolen his ability to planeswalk. This could work, but I’m not sure how we come up with a third. Could we just have 2 in the first set, and 3 in the second (Dahl, 137, and the planeswalker that accompanies him/her back to Ormos)? I picture this block being large – large anyway.)
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Everything looks correct, the only thing that catched my attention on a first quick read is at the end: Dahl is a planeswalker in the second set?
However, most of all I wanted you to do the summary for the first time as the creator of the original idea, and in fact I'm glad I did this because a new detail came up that makes acceptable the 2-3 planeswalker split: this block is double large! I didn't know it until now! Anyway, this has implications in limited: what's the environment when the second set comes out? I'll definitely make a blog post about this as I already said. I'll reread this with fresh eyes and get back to the questions tomorrow.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Everything looks correct, the only thing that catched my attention on a first quick read is at the end: Dahl is a planeswalker in the second set?
Oops, I didn't mean to include that. I've been thinking lately that maybe Dahl could have a card representing him in both sets, but in the second set he becomes exposed for who he truly is, and his new card would have his real name. It would provide symmetry with 137 also gaining a new name. One character would go from a nameless prisoner to a planewide hero, while the other would go from a god to an ousted sham. It's just one of a million thoughts I've had rolling around in my head, I didn't mean to include it. Anyway, I look forward to your blog.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
It's late and I need to go to bed, but here's my attempt at a response to Tilwin's post. My answers are in red. BTW Tilwin, we are still very early in the development stage, there is still time to change anything we want. Any suggestions are welcome. This is your block too.
- How much magic does the world of Ormos have? And if it does, where does all the technology come from?
I expect it needs a certain degree of magic, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have it as MTG lore (no mana = no spells = nothing to play).
As for the technology, I expect just like any other plane, there ought to be something on Ormos worth all this technological focus. It certainly doesn't feel Izzet to me. I'll be back on my "guess" on this.
I picture Ormos having as much magic as the next plane. The technology comes from Dahl, and I think it should be magic based.
- How did the Brotherhood appear and what was Ormos like before it? Does the block start with the rise of the Brotherhood and the beginning of its dominance, or does it begin with the liberation?
Why not just split the block into two? The rise of the Brotherhood and its fall?
The block starts after The Brotherhood has been in power for quite some time, enough that they have successfully rewritten the history involving how they came to power to begin with. We have not yet discussed how The Brotherhood came to be, although I do have some thoughts. This block will really only focus on the rise of the rebellion, and the fall of The Brotherhood. To be honest, this question just gave me a new thought. The true story of how Father Dahl came to power could be left a mystery, which could then be shown in a prequel block at some point, but that’s another set. Either way, we still need to hammer out how Dahl came to power, perhaps both The Brotherhood version, and the real version.
- Who else is involved?
Organization focused on control and using technology. Sounds awfully familiar to me. I wonder where else have I heard about a secret organization in the Magic Universe? (hint: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and the Infinite Consortium)
I had the idea of having Father Dahl turn out to be Tezzeret earlier in this thread, but we’re not sure how that could work into the actual MTG storyline. I would still like Dahl’s true identity to be exposed in the second set though. Perhaps a different member of the Consortium?
- What's with the color split?
So I get white is supposed to be this big thing, but I'm not sure it's the right approach. Why not just split the five colors for both factions - resistance and brotherhood? Very "Return to Mirrodin" and it keeps all the colors happy. I suppose for the Brotherhood we can consider several "departments", among which you guys already mentioned the whole religious facade (which makes plenty of sense - great means of manipulating the masses) as for the resistance, there can be factions involved which are either racial or geographically split (or why not both?).
I really want the main focus of the set to basically be “white gone bad”. I am starting to think that we will need a few different nations on Ormos though, although they should all be controlled by The Brotherhood. What if the plane was split into five nations (one for each color), each filled with some different race (elves for green, Goblins: Red, Blue: ???, Black: ???, White: Humans), and before Dahl took over these five nations were at what amounted to a religious war. Dahl finds the plane and joins the Human nation thus tipping the war in their favor. This is pretty much just thinking aloud though. I'm not opposed to splitting the colors differently per se, but I would like to keep the white focus (just for story, not for mechanics or card count)
- So why does the brotherhood rely on technology?
Magic sounds quite dangerous to me in a world where total control is wanted. So what if the Brotherhood had in fact found a way to control magic on the plane? I am thinking by means of some metal or special material or something, they could have spread via religious means of course. The idea could've of course been planted to the Brotherhood in the first place by some external source (whatever it may be).
The “technology” The Brotherhood uses comes from Dahl. They use it to police the citizens. As far as impeding magic is concerned, I have had this thought myself, but I’m not too sure about it. I do think Dahl should have some device that he is using to keep planeswalker from coming to, or leaving Ormos. I think this device should be destroyed at the end of the set, and it should coincide with 137 gaining her spark in some way. I do like the idea that they could have made magic taboo in their religion. I’ll have to keep thinking on this.
- Less usage of magic seems to encourage colorless mana
So instead of just focusing on artifacts, how would it be like if there was this whole colorless cycle? Or if that sounds too "pie-breaking-risky", maybe it would be the right moment to bring back Monocolored Hybrid? (such as in Beseech the Queen)
I think we need to decide whether we really want less magic before we decide on this.
Edit: BTW, these are just my thoughts, by no means is anything set in stone. Just to be clear.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
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Myself (Flatline)
bravelion83
Indighost
Tilwin
scrad_the_wanderer
Those that are not part of the design team are free to post thoughts if they like, but please try not to derail the team's thought process. Thank you.
<Edit>I've put the original pitch into a spoiler. Much has been changed since then, but I wanted to preserve the timeline.<Edit>
Still, No. 137-M dreamed of life on the outside. During his years in the Workcamp, No. 137-M was befriended by many of the workers that came and went through the camp. Many of them spoke of a rebellion against the oppressive Brotherhood regime. This idea excited No. 137 from a very early age, and he set out to acquire as much knowledge and information as he could in hopes of one day escaping and joining the rebellion. Little did he know that he would end up leading it.
Instant (U)
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard. Spells that share a same name with that spell can't be cast this turn.
"I'm sorry friend, The Brotherhood has issued a temporary injunction against such activity."
Detector Drone
Artifact Creature - Drone (R)
Flash
Flying, hexproof
: Until end of turn, creatures with hexproof may be targeted as though they didn't have hexproof.
"Usually, by the time you know it's there, it's already too late."
0/3
Docility Chip
Artifact - Equipment (U)
You may equip Docility Chip to creatures you don't control
Equipped creature can't attack or block.
Equip
"If sermons and The Ancient Writings can't get you to change your wicked ways, perhaps we need to try something else."
-Big Brother Javal
Brotherhood Inspector
Creature - Human Advisor (U)
Brotherhood Inspector can't be blocked.
Opponents play with the top card of their library revealed.
Whenever Brotherhood Inspector deals combat damage to a player, you may look at that player's hand.
"Secrets degrade the moral fabric of society. If one is doing nothing wrong, one has no need to keep secrets."
–Big Brother Dhal
1/3
Militant Reformist
Creature - Human Rebel (R)
Opponents can't cast instants and/or sorceries if they have one or more cards in their graveyard.
: Exile target player's graveyard, then put a +1/+1 counter on Militant Reformist. Only an opponent may activate this ability.
2/2
"Sometimes, in order to move forward, one must forget the past."
- 137-M
Brotherhood Workcamp
Enchantment (R)
When Brotherhood Workcamp enters the battlefield, exile all creatures until Brotherhood Workcamp leaves the battlefield.
With word of the rebellion spreading, The Brotherhood began to send more and more people to the workcamps.
Brotherhood Program
Enchantment - Law
Creatures can't attack or block alone.
Edit:
For any that are interested in seeing where we currently stand on Brotherhood of Ormos, here is a link to bravelion83's blog on the set....
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/userblogs/the-lions-lair/45741-orm-brotherhood-of-ormos-index
Edit:
Here are links to the common and uncommon card renders that bravelion made. They are lacking art, which I consider to be the most difficult part of card making....
Commons:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_GAEmxVUoMJV1pIV0pnLXhUVTA&usp=sharing
Uncommons:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_GAEmxVUoMJa1ZIRnFWeVF1cVk&usp=sharing
Edit:
Here's a link to the set skeleton/card design spreadsheet. Thank you once again to bravelion for creating it.....
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_WbNmJ0HjGfcg2qmb4yrevK2GQWJbDHV2O7s7LcMoTs/edit#gid=1153177635
First off, the block’s main story is about an oppressive theocratic, fascist regime and the rebellion against it.
The block takes heavy influence from dystopian future novels such as 1984, Brave New World, A Handmaid’s Tale, etc. (Picture how Greek mythology influenced Theros, but probably a little less obvious.)
I’m picturing the block having a fairly strong artifact presence, but I don’t really want it to be out and out artifact themed.
I see white as playing the role of the primary “evil” color in the block. The other colors will be represented in The Brotherhood, but it should be based in white.
I’m not sure how long The Brotherhood has been in power. What do you guys think? I’m thinking 20 to 50 years? I could be way off on this though. I’m just thinking that it has been a while, but not forever.
Do we like the story of 137-M that I’ve laid out above? If so, do we begin with his escape? Or does it come during the 1st set? Or perhaps the 2nd set?
What creature types do we want inhabiting Ormos? I’m having a hard time picturing Elves in the environment that is in my head. I can picture Goblins though. I can also see Vedalken for some reason. One thought I’ve had recently is to make the block only contain Humans and artifact creatures, but that might be a bit boring. I’m picturing a somewhat sterile environment, although I’m not sure I really want to go too far down the technology route. I want cards like Detector Drone and Docility Chip to be more magic based than tech based. How far down the tech route does everybody else think we should go?
One of the block’s major themes is lack of privacy and government intrusiveness and restriction. I want people to feel like they need to go to great lengths to hide anything from The Brotherhood. I’m thinking the rebels will need a pretty intricate way to keep themselves hidden from The Brotherhood. I definitely don’t see a lot of out and out battles in the 1st set at least. I see covert actions and symbolic acts of defiance. I think the 1st set might want to be more about planning and recruiting for the rebels.
I currently have no ideas for any mechanics; accept the chip idea, which is just equipment that attaches to enemy creatures. I think it fits the theme of the block well though. I would love to do something like this for the rebels: “Effects that do not target this creature, have no effect on this creature.” I’m not sure that even works though. I think it represents someone not following the laws well though.
Do we want multi-colored cards in the set? Even though I have one in my example cards, I’m thinking we want very few, maybe none if artifacts end up playing a major role.
Who are the planeswalkers in the set? Why do they tolerate The Brotherhood? Perhaps, the founder of The Brotherhood is a planeswalker? I would love to see 137-M become a planeswalker as a twist. Or perhaps his spark ignited while he was in the workcamp, and he planeswalked away as his means of escape? I’m not sure I like him starting as a planeswalker though, I just wanted to put that out there.
Here are some links for reference...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale
As for the leader... Maybe the plane was embroiled in war before the brotherhood. The leader sees individuality and wild emotions as the root of the conflict, and establishes the brotherhood as a way to "save" the world. As a planeswalker he sees the horror of war as soldiers ransack his village for fun, and he ignites, landing on esper, or maybe fiora, where the governing body controls the populace with fear, secrets,and magic. But there's peace on these planes so he sees them as ideal, and emotions as evil.
Mechanical note: Detain as a brotherhood mechanic? Do we want the rebel creature type? If so, do we want their "search for more rebels" mechanic?
Just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
Edit: Revealing opponent's hand and do things depending on whats revealed? A brotherhood mechanic.
Say about how much tribal was in Innistrad? Just a secondary theme.
Evil white is the most interesting thing in this block in my opinion. It's something we see very rarely in actual Magic. About the colors, also to answer to Indighost's last pm (by the way - Indighost: come here!), I picture both the Brotherhood and the rebels to be in all five colors but obviously centered differently: the Brotherhood just needs to be centered in white and blue, and having the rebels be centered in red and black would be the best option in my opinion. Green could either be midway, or could join the rebels, making them mainly Jund colored.
Real fascism in Italy stayed in power for almost exactly 20 years. Here in Italy it's known as "il ventennio (fascista)", which could be translated to something like "the two (fascist) decades". We can have the Brotherhood be in power since a longer time, no problem about it, but given the sources I'd say about 20 years is a good start.
I do like it. The actual rebellion needs to be in the second set though. In the first set, we experience what the government of the Brotherhood is like and we get to know the world. In the second set, 137-M escapes and leads the rebellion. I don't think it could be any other way realistically.
Me too. I agree with all this.
Definitely. Having only Humans sounds like a bad idea. In Extinctia we have no Humans, but that's nowhere as restrictive as having only Humans would be. I like the idea of keeping the variety in creature types to a minimum though to show the "sterile environment", but having only one creature type is too restrictive. I'd say let's use only few creature types that really make sense in Ormos.
As far as we can without having this feel like Space: the Convergence (the science fiction parody of MTG from an April 1st of some years ago, for those who don't know what I'm talking about). Certainly more than the average Magic set but not so much that it feels the focus of the block.
That sounds almost like a design goal! This could be easily refined into one.
Definitely agree. Let the rebels just plan and recruit in the first set, then they will be the protagonists in the second one!
Chip (This Equipment can only (?) be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
Do Chips equip only to opposing creatures or they can also equip your own? I feel the second sentence is needed as reminder text for less experienced players. Another name I could see for this mechanic is Implant. This could also be implemented as an artifact subtype, so that we can have cards caring about them ("deal damage to target player equal to the number of Chips equipped to creatures he/she controls", "draw a card if you control a Chip", "search your library for a Chip card", etc...).
This can also be what mechanically generates the artifact subtheme we talked about before. What about actually turning it into an Equipment subtheme? With this mechanic and white being both the color that most interacts with Equipment and the main color of the Brotherhood, it all comes together really nicely! Too nicely to pass in my opinion, even though we might still want to make some non-Equipment artifacts, like drones and such.
I don't think this works in the rules. I'll have to think about this a bit more. I'll come back to you with something about this later.
Agreed, though large sets these days almost always have the "multicolored draft" cycle at uncommon to help define what the different color pairs do in limited. Actually, we can still have that as long as those artifacts aren't colored. Any two-colored archetype won't have any particular troubles in casting artifacts, certainly no more than monocolored decks. Actually, it could even help with color screw.
The latter sounds like a very good idea to me, even if I don't know who that could be.
Yes, I think the story just wants him to become a planeswalker, but no, I don't like that his spark igniting is his way of escape. He still needs to lead the rebellion in the second set, and if he's already a planeswalker than why would he do that rather that just planeswalk away? His spark needs to ignite with the rebellion somehow, and his planeswalker card needs to be in the second set. He has to lead the rebellion, then something that happens during the rebellion makes his spark ignite, and then after the rebellion he can planeswalk away. I think this needs to be his story. I'd also like him to take a real name as a planeswalker, kind of like Kytheon Iora became Gideon Jura, but that needs to be the last thing to happen in the second set, the conclusion of our story.
Another idea: what about showing him as a legendary creature in the first set while he's working in the camp and then as a planeswalker in the second set to show his progression as the leader of the rebellion? I'd love to do this, it shows the character progression really nicely!
Thanks, I'll definitely need to check those.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Thought Processor 3
Artifact Creature - Construct (U)
Implant 4 (4: Thought Processor becomes an Equipment attached to target creature you control. Implant only as a sorcery.)
Equipped creature gets +2/+2.
Whenever Thought Processor or equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, look at that player's hand.
2/2
Sorry I didn't see your post at first, you must have posted right while I was writing my own post above. I could also see something like this working. I still think we shouldn't have too many creature types in the whole set. This doesn't feel like a world with much variety of lifeforms.
I like this very very much. He needs to be a white/blue planeswalker (white because of the pseudo-fascist nature of his government and blue for the "hating emotions" part. He also needs to be in the first set. He and 137-M makes two native Ormosian planeswalkers, I'd say it's enough given how rare the planeswalker spark is supposed to be. The other planeswakers (other two in the first set and another one in the second) should be either existing returning planeswalkers or new planeswalkers but coming from other planes. Also, as both the leader (he really needs a name) and 137-M want to be white (as Piar rightfully noticed for 137-M), I'd prefer to avoid white on the other three planeswalkers. Do we want to think who they might be now or later?
This is a very good idea in my opinion. We need a returning mechanic, and detain makes perfect sense as a Brotherhood mechanic to me. I support this.
My opinion is that we do want the Rebel creature type, but we do NOT want the rebel mechanic. If I recall correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong, as I wasn't playing yet at that time, I only saw the few Rebels in Time Spiral block), the rebel mechanic is white/black, while our rebels will be black/red or Jund colored. Especially if we're using detain as a returning mechanic, I'd say we give the Rebels a new mechanic.
I can see this as a mini-theme for a few cards, but not as a keyword mechanic. Detain is a much better fit for that.
Also, how many keyworded mechanics do we want? Certainly one for the Brotherhood (could be detain) and one for the Rebels, then a couple more generic ones everyone can have? I made research for Extinctia when we were deciding keywords, and I discovered the vast majority of sets since the new set size (Shards of Alara) has four mechanics.
Hi! Don't worry, I'm not going to abandon Extinctia, I'm doing both at the same time. I think I can make it.
Your reasoning is perfect and I fully support it. The only doubt I have is if we want his legendary creature card in the first set be already multicolored or monowhite turning red/white as a planeswalker.
I think it will have to do a lot with the design goal. If we want to make the players feel the oppression of the pseudo-fascist regime in gameplay, I think the Chips are better. If we just want to have a more generic technological feel, we might use Implants. I think the story leads us towards the former.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
This is a lot of stuff, I'll try to address as much as I can tonight.
I do feel like The Brotherhood controls the whole plane, but I'm not entirely opposed to it if everybody else thinks they shouldn't. I see the Brotherhood consisting of only Humans (maybe Vedalken), and I see them as looking down on the other races of Ormos. This feels ok to me with Goblins, but not Elves. We could have some creatures like Trolls and Zombies in the wilds of the plane though.
As far as the leader of the Brotherhood (Brother Dahl? Big Brother Dahl? Father Dahl?) is concerned, I definitely see him as planeswalker, but I don't think he needs to be native to Ormos. I almost think it might be better if he wasn't. I definitely think he rises to power because of some sort of strife on the plane (war, famine, environmental collapse....). I think he takes advantage of this strife to gain power though, not because he actually cares about stopping it. Maybe The Lead Brother has some ulterior motive? Although I see the Brotherhood in W/U, I kind of see the leader in W/B or maybe W/U/B. Maybe he doesn't even believe in what he is teaching through the religion of The Brotherhood? The rest of The Brotherhood is devoutly religious, while he is only pretending to be for power. I also am wondering if it might be a good idea for him to be keeping the fact that he is a planeswalker secret? He could use this to his advantage by claiming that his power is granted to him by whatever god their religion is based on. This would only work if the citizens of Ormos had never seen another planeswalker though, and I'm not sure how we could make that work. (BTW, the secret planeswalker idea is actually something bravelion mentioned pertaining to a different set idea. Just to give proper credit.) To sum up, right now, I kinda like the idea of "Brother Dahl" being a secret planeswalking artificer from another plane that is using a phony religion to manipulate the citizens of Ormos and gain power. I'm not sure why he is doing all this though. A totally crazy thought just popped into my head as I was writing this. Is there anyway "Brother Dahl" could actually be Tezzeret in disguise? He could use the name Brother Dahl in the 1st set, but then be revealed to be Tezzeret in the second set. This twist would be hidden from the public until it actually occurred. This could be totally crazy though, I'm not sure where we last left Tezzeret in the story. He could be dead for all I remember. I think we should hold off on thinking about the other walkers until we get things a little more ironed out. It'll be clearer to us what they need to be then.
Detain popped into my head as a potential returning mechanic in the set also. We may be onto something there.
I definitely was planning to use the Rebel creature type, but I wasn't planning on using the Rebel mechanic. I agree with Lion 100% on this one.
I'm not sure I really want an artifact theme necessarily, I just see more than the average amount of artifacts in the set due to the drones and chips and surveillance devices and whatnot.
To be honest, I actually do think I like the term implant better. I'm still not totally sure about the chip/implant idea though. If we did do it, I can only see them having negative effects, so I don't picture anybody wanting to attach it to a creature they control anyway. That said, I'm not sure it matters if it says it can only be attached to creatures your opponents control. I pictured some chips being planted in people secretly, and used as a way for The Brotherhood to spy on people, and maybe even control their thoughts remotely. In this scenario, I picture the rebellion using dogs as a way to detect these chips. Think Terminator (just the dog part).
I'm all for the first set showing life on Ormos as it has been, while the rebellion is just getting started. The second set would then show the actual rebellion. I also agree that 137-M should be a creature in the first set, then his spark ignites in the second set. I also agree with Piar that he would never abandon his plane. When I suggested he planeswalked away as a means of escape, I just meant to escape the Workcamp, he would definitely return to Ormos to fight The Brotherhood. I agree that he should get a name when he becomes a planewalker, but in the first set I definitely think he need to just be a number. It doesn't have to be 137-M, but it should be something similar.
I definitely see The Brotherhood being centered in W/U, but I'm having a hard time seeing the rebellion as black. If anything, I see it in Naya colors. I have no problem seeing white as evil, but I do have a hard time seeing black as good, which is what I picture the rebellion being. Don't get me wrong, I see black cards in the rebellion, I just have a hard time seeing black as one of the rebellion's primary colors.
I didn't think the rebellion ability I suggested before worked in the rules, but I still like the overall idea. I think global/non-targeting effects (Wraths and whatnot) are a good representation of law, and not being affected by them seems like a good representation of breaking the law. I wish there was someway this could work. Here's what I'm talking about for reference: Lawless (Effects that do not target this creature have no effect on this creature.)
Could we create some sort of mechanic that represents a caste system? Something that is more and more beneficial the higher the creature's station in society.
I've got a lot more swirling around in my head, but that is all I have time for right now. I'm sorry my thoughts aren't put together in a more coherent way, but I'm really busy this weekend and I wanted to keep the conversation going.
Edit: BTW, I definitely don't want Ormos to interfere with the work bravelion is doing on Extinctia. I don't mind if Ormos moves a little slow at first anyway. I have a lot of RL responsibilities, if Ormos moved too quickly, I might not be able to keep up. That said, I do hope we can keep a steady pace going on it.
• I too feel like the Brotherhood has to control the whole plane. We want it to be an oppressive presence that's felt everywhere on Ormos. I can see any kind of wildlife out of the cities. By the way, we need to start thinking of something about them: how many cities there are? What is the capital? What do they look like? Are they connected to different colors as in Theros for example (I think the answer to this should be no)?
• I like the leader to be called Brother Dahl. "Big Brother Dahl" is too reminiscent of the tv show, which at least here in Italy, but I think everywhere, is quite divisive and not so well seen. "Father Dahl" clashes with the name "Brotherhood" to me. I think "Brother Dahl" is just perfect. We need to investigate his backstory. The way you describe him is definitely white/black. I don't see much blue in him. And this already has a very important consequence:
• Black needs to be on the Brotherhood side. So the colors just have to be WUB for the Brotherhood and RGW for the Rebels, with white playing sort of a pivot role: it shows its evil fascist side with the Brotherhood and its good side with the Rebels. I think we have to accept this as true now and build on it.
• Thanks for the credit on the secret planeswalker thing, even if I still totally plan to do it anyway when (not if) I'll get to that idea I told you about. In my head I pictured Brother Dahl differently though: what if the Brotherhood religion is centered on him as the god? Kind of like in the Roman Empire, where the emperor was worshipped like a god. Then he can justify very well his powers: "Of course you can't do that, you're just worshippers and I am your god!" It also fits very nicely with him actually looking for power, and the more I think of it the more it makes real sense to me. That indeed has to mean that either no planeswalker has been to Ormos before (and we'd have to justify that somehow), or that planeswalkers have been there in the past, but no Ormosian has ever seen one in the act of planeswalking, so they just saw them as any other living being.
• About Tezzeret, he's not dead, but the last we know of him is from the famous article "Checking in on the planeswalkers" from a year ago, where it's said that:
So, unless we want that new mission to have something to do with Ormos (and that could clash with whatever they do when they'll bring him back), I'd say he's out. What if we just say Brother Dahl is from an unknown plane? We have a few planeswalkers we don't know the home plane of: Ashiok comes to mind, I think Garruk is another, and about Elspeth we just know that she's from a plane invaded by the Phyrexians (not Mirrodin, another one) but we don't know which one. Chandra, Jace, and Liliana too until Origins, and Gideon was just speculated.
• Chips/implants obviously have to have negative effects. Now I'm more inclined to say "let Johnny do strange things targeting his own creatures" and have the mechanic be:
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
An example:
Weakening Chip 3
Artifact - Equipment Implant (C)
Equipped creature gets -2/-0.
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
Equip 2
Mana costs are just examples and not meant to be balanced. I gave it a subtype so we can have cards that interact with Implants. We should be very careful with Implants that give -N to toughness, as they could be used as repeatable removal.
I like this mechanic, even though it may not have that big of a design space, but there is enough for one set in my opinion. I think this mechanic represents really well the feeling of oppression we want to give players. And about that:
• What about the design goal? What experience do we want players to have? I'll try:
We want to make players feel the oppression of the Brotherhood regime through gameplay and the player can feel either the oppressor or the rebel that struggles to break free of it, depending mainly on which colors he's playing.
What do you all on the team think about this?
• About 137-M: I didn't understand you meant that about his spark igniting. My bad. I really like your version of the story: while in the Workcamp, one day he was particularly oppressed and as a result his spark ignites sending him in whatever plane (Which one?). (Here is the end of set 1. Bridge between the sets:) On that plane, he realizes he's now free and experiences what freedom is like for the first time in his life. As he's never had a real name, he either picks one or is granted one somehow (Which is his new name? How exactly does he gain it?) on that plane (like Kytheon Iora that became Gideon Jura on Bant). In short time, he decides that all his fellow citizens deserve that same freedom and so he comes to the decision to try to strike down the Brotherhood. (End of the bridge. In set 2:) He returns to Ormos and leads the successful rebellion. After the rebellion, he can either stay on Ormos to make sure something like that never happens again, or decide that now that his fellow citizens are free he's also free to explore the multiverse.
How do you all on the team feel about this as his story?
I would keep 137-M as his number. I see no real reason to change it. His card in set 1 could be something like:
137-M, Camp Worker W (not one mana, just to symbolize that he's monowhite)
Creature - Human (does he have a class?) (M) (I think he has to be mythic, at least because of story reasons)
...
• You're right, the proposed mechanic for the Rebels just doesn't work in the rules. I think we should think of something else in that same space, where the starting point is: "breaking the law". By the way, that fits perfectly in red philosophically.
• The caste mechanic is another mechanic. It looks like we're going for a split à la Scars of Mirrodin: separate mechanics for the Brotherhood (detain, implant, and this caste mechanic) and for the Rebels (the law-breaking mechanic and possibly another new one). That is a structure I would like and support. In set 1 the Brotherhood is prevalent, so there are more cards with the Brotherhood mechanics, while in set 2 the Rebels are prevalent, so there there are more cards with the Rebels mechanics. To show the shift even better, we can have the Brotherhood drop a mechanic in set 2 (implant?) and maybe give the Rebels a new additional one if there is room. This means the caste mechanics has to make sense in Esper colors, while the law-breaking mechanic in Naya colors. "Something that is more and more beneficial the higher the creature's station in society" is a good goal for this mechanic, but the problem is: mechanically, what does represent a "creature's station in society"? I don't think we want something like level up, when you get higher in level. In a caste system, I can't see such a progression. So we have to find something that is naturally present on a Magic card and build on that. Maybe CMC could represent the caste level of the creature? Or power? I don't see toughness being what we're looking for flavorfully. Some sort of CMC based mechanic could be interesting and original.
• Don't worry about the time overlap with Extinctia. I will tell you myself if I ever have any such problem, but for now I'm able to follow both with no problems.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Edit: Maybe something that limits a creature's abilities or power and toughness depending on its CMC. I'm not sure there's a mechanic there, but a definitely an enchantment or something.
Beware of stepping on green's toe. This is a really green concept philosophically, and the Brotherhood is not meant to be green.
While I can see how fateseal is a good fit thematically, it's a really really unfun mechanic, as bad as a mechanic can be in that regard. I'd really like (but read this as "I want") to avoid it. Between the two, I don't feel there is any possibility of choice. It's 100% detain without a doubt.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I'm not really sure how this is green. Isn't green about growth and the wild? What I'm talking about is stagnation and control. Philosophically, Godhead of Awe represents what I'm trying to say rather well. Maybe something like "Creatures can't have power greater than their converted mana cost." or "This creature has protection from creatures with converted man less than it." I am coming up with these as I write this, they are just meant to provoke thought.
I'm fine with this. I just wanted to put the idea out there.
• I too feel like the Brotherhood has to control the whole plane. We want it to be an oppressive presence that's felt everywhere on Ormos. I can see any kind of wildlife out of the cities. By the way, we need to start thinking of something about them: how many cities there are? What is the capital? What do they look like? Are they connected to different colors as in Theros for example (I think the answer to this should be no)?
I agree that The Brotherhood runs the whole plane. What if the Brotherhood is in the capital with the “free” citizens of Ormos, but they’ve converted all the other cities into various camps? I definitely need to think more about the lay of the land. I agree that the cities don’t need to be connected to different colors.
• I like the leader to be called Brother Dahl. "Big Brother Dahl" is too reminiscent of the tv show, which at least here in Italy, but I think everywhere, is quite divisive and not so well seen. "Father Dahl" clashes with the name "Brotherhood" to me. I think "Brother Dahl" is just perfect. We need to investigate his backstory. The way you describe him is definitely white/black. I don't see much blue in him. And this already has a very important consequence:
Big Brother is synonymous with the novel 1984, that is why it was suggested. I think the TV show actually takes its name from the novel. I’ve never actually seen it. I’m fine with just Brother Dahl though. I see Brother Dahl as partially blue because I picture him as a an artificer. He doesn’t have to be, but I think we could make the chips, drones and whatnot artifacts of his invention. Of course, with the existence of Tezzeret, what I am thinking might be redundant.
• Black needs to be on the Brotherhood side. So the colors just have to be WUB for the Brotherhood and RGW for the Rebels, with white playing sort of a pivot role: it shows its evil fascist side with the Brotherhood and its good side with the Rebels. I think we have to accept this as true now and build on it.
Agreed. More and more, I’m thinking one of the main themes of the set would be to show the how white can be taken too far if you're not careful. I think showing white in both factions would be a good way to express this. Justice and order are great until they hamper freedom and privacy.
• Thanks for the credit on the secret planeswalker thing, even if I still totally plan to do it anyway when (not if) I'll get to that idea I told you about. In my head I pictured Brother Dahl differently though: what if the Brotherhood religion is centered on him as the god? Kind of like in the Roman Empire, where the emperor was worshipped like a god. Then he can justify very well his powers: "Of course you can't do that, you're just worshippers and I am your god!" It also fits very nicely with him actually looking for power, and the more I think of it the more it makes real sense to me. That indeed has to mean that either no planeswalker has been to Ormos before (and we'd have to justify that somehow), or that planeswalkers have been there in the past, but no Ormosian has ever seen one in the act of planeswalking, so they just saw them as any other living being.
I always try to give credit where it is due. I don’t want to step on your toes and steal away an idea, I’m fine with it if you’d rather not use the secret planeswalker idea here. I really think it fits well though. I have also thought about the idea of Dahl being the god of his religion (I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread), I don’t think he has to be, but I think I’m fine either way. If you feel strongly about him being the god I’m fine with it. Another option would be for him to hijack an already existing religion (think Christian televangelists). This would allow us to make some citizens true believers looking to take back their religion. This is just a thought, I’m still fine with him claiming to be god himself. If we do go the route of him being god, I really think we need to go with Father Dahl though. He would be the “Father” to all the brothers (and sisters, although I see women being treated as second class citizens on Ormos, which is something we should discuss also).
• About Tezzeret, he's not dead, but the last we know of him is from the famous article "Checking in on the planeswalkers" from a year ago, where it's said that:
Tezzeret (is currently an) Agent of the dragon. Currently an agent of Nicol Bolas, Tezzeret was sent to monitor Phyrexia's growing influence over Mirrodin. He gained an interest in Phyrexia's mechanical civilization and their philosophy of self-perfection by metal, and saw an opportunity to usurp Karn's rulership and take command of New Phyrexia. But that ultimately proved a failed experiment, as Elspeth, Koth, and Venser rescued Karn and put an end to Tezzeret's ambitions. Nicol Bolas summoned Tezzeret back to him and tasked him with a new mission elsewhere.
So, unless we want that new mission to have something to do with Ormos (and that could clash with whatever they do when they'll bring him back), I'd say he's out. What if we just say Brother Dahl is from an unknown plane? We have a few planeswalkers we don't know the home plane of: Ashiok comes to mind, I think Garruk is another, and about Elspeth we just know that she's from a plane invaded by the Phyrexians (not Mirrodin, another one) but we don't know which one. Chandra, Jace, and Liliana too until Origins, and Gideon was just speculated.
I think it would be kinda cool if he turned out to be Tezzeret, and it sounds like it could actually fit the story. It would also help give us Brother Dahl’s motivation. But I guess it would be weird when Wizard’s actually picks his story back up. I’m not sure I care a lot about that, but if you do, we don’t have to think about it further.
• Chips/implants obviously have to have negative effects. Now I'm more inclined to say "let Johnny do strange things targeting his own creatures" and have the mechanic be:
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
An example:
Weakening Chip 3
Artifact - Equipment Implant (C)
Equipped creature gets -2/-0.
Implant (This Equipment can be equipped to creatures your opponents control. You still control it when it's equipped to a creature an opponent controls.)
Equip 2
Mana costs are just examples and not meant to be balanced. I gave it a subtype so we can have cards that interact with Implants. We should be very careful with Implants that give -N to toughness, as they could be used as repeatable removal.
I like this mechanic, even though it may not have that big of a design space, but there is enough for one set in my opinion. I think this mechanic represents really well the feeling of oppression we want to give players. And about that:
I’m happy you like the chip idea, let’s do it.
• What about the design goal? What experience do we want players to have? I'll try:
We want to make players feel the oppression of the Brotherhood regime through gameplay and the player can feel either the oppressor or the rebel that struggles to break free of it, depending mainly on which colors he's playing.
What do you all on the team think about this?
It seems good. I’ll try writing one myself also, just as an exercise if for no other reason.
• About 137-M: I didn't understand you meant that about his spark igniting. My bad. I really like your version of the story: while in the Workcamp, one day he was particularly oppressed and as a result his spark ignites sending him in whatever plane (Which one?). (Here is the end of set 1. Bridge between the sets:) On that plane, he realizes he's now free and experiences what freedom is like for the first time in his life. As he's never had a real name, he either picks one or is granted one somehow (Which is his new name? How exactly does he gain it?) on that plane (like Kytheon Iora that became Gideon Jura on Bant). In short time, he decides that all his fellow citizens deserve that same freedom and so he comes to the decision to try to strike down the Brotherhood. (End of the bridge. In set 2:) He returns to Ormos and leads the successful rebellion. After the rebellion, he can either stay on Ormos to make sure something like that never happens again, or decide that now that his fellow citizens are free he's also free to explore the multiverse.
How do you all on the team feel about this as his story?
The only thing I would change is, I think 137-M is a very righteous and motivated person right from the beginning. He has been training to defeat the rebellion all his life (as much as one can in a workcamp). Although he has never experienced freedom, he still yearns for it. Basically, I think he has always intended to free the people of Ormos, even if he wasn’t really ever sure how he could do that. I’m not sure what plane he would planeswalk to, but I think it might be cool if he encounters a recurring planeswalker while there. That planeswalker could name him and take him under his wing (137-M is very confused by what has happened). This planeswalker could follow him back to Ormos for the 2nd set. Gideon is the 1st PW that pops into my head for this.
I would keep 137-M as his number. I see no real reason to change it. His card in set 1 could be something like:
137-M, Camp Worker W (not one mana, just to symbolize that he's monowhite)
Creature - Human (does he have a class?) (M) (I think he has to be mythic, at least because of story reasons)
I agree with all of this this. His class should be Rebel. He'll be a planeswalker in the second set, it would be weird if we used the Rebel creature type but the leader of the rebels wasn't a Rebel.
Even though the rebellion gets going in earnest during the second set, I still think the rebels are present and active in the first set. Right?
...
• You're right, the proposed mechanic for the Rebels just doesn't work in the rules. I think we should think of something else in that same space, where the starting point is: "breaking the law". By the way, that fits perfectly in red philosophically.
Everything that pops into my head for this doesn’t really work. I’m little stuck here. This set needs to have a lot of white effects that say that certain things can’t happen (to represent the restrictive laws), is there some way to make it so that a creature can ignore can’t effects? I think not. I really want the rebels to have some sort of backwards form of hexproof. Basically protection from nontargeting effects.
• The caste mechanic is another mechanic. It looks like we're going for a split à la Scars of Mirrodin: separate mechanics for the Brotherhood (detain, implant, and this caste mechanic) and for the Rebels (the law-breaking mechanic and possibly another new one). That is a structure I would like and support. In set 1 the Brotherhood is prevalent, so there are more cards with the Brotherhood mechanics, while in set 2 the Rebels are prevalent, so there there are more cards with the Rebels mechanics. To show the shift even better, we can have the Brotherhood drop a mechanic in set 2 (implant?) and maybe give the Rebels a new additional one if there is room. This means the caste mechanics has to make sense in Esper colors, while the law-breaking mechanic in Naya colors. "Something that is more and more beneficial the higher the creature's station in society" is a good goal for this mechanic, but the problem is: mechanically, what does represent a "creature's station in society"? I don't think we want something like level up, when you get higher in level. In a caste system, I can't see such a progression. So we have to find something that is naturally present on a Magic card and build on that. Maybe CMC could represent the caste level of the creature? Or power? I don't see toughness being what we're looking for flavorfully. Some sort of CMC based mechanic could be interesting and original.
I touch on this a bit in the post previous to this.
• Don't worry about the time overlap with Extinctia. I will tell you myself if I ever have any such problem, but for now I'm able to follow both with no problems.
I mostly just wanted to let the rest of the Extinctia team know that I wasn’t trying to steal you away.
Last but not least, I'd love to hear what Tilwin and Indighost's thoughts on this stuff are. Chime in any time guys, I don't want lion and I to make all the decisions, unless that is what you guys want. I'm fine if you'd both prefer to just make cards when the time comes, but if that's the case, I'd like to enlist a 5th to help contribute to the world building. It's also possible that you are both just busy right now, which is ok too. :)
White wants peace through structure.
Blue wants perfection through knowledge.
Black wants power through opportunity.
Red wants freedom through action.
Green wants acceptance through harmony (sometimes he also said "through wisdom").
The green one means green wants to accept the world as it is ("acceptance") because it's perfect the way it is, and to accept it one must first understand it. To understand it deeply, one must then enter in contact with the soul of the world and just feel it ("harmony"). This has consequences. From the first part derives the attention for nature (if the world is perfect as is we must let nature run it, without interference) and everything that is part of nature: and from here comes the focus on growth (both creature growth and land growth aka land fetching and land interactions in general), evolution, wildlife, and so on. From the second part derives the more "shamanistic" part of green: Elementals, land bonds, and such, the part of green we saw with the Temur essentially. Accepting the world that's perfect as it is also means wanting to keep it as perfect as it is now: from here comes the focus on the status quo, traditions, etc... And it also means accepting your role in the world as it is, because you're born what you had to be. You have a predetermined role (aka "destiny") in the perfect world, and you absolutely don't have to change it, but you must discover what it is and then embrace it. This is the key of the green/blue conflict: green says you are born into your role and you shouldn't change it but you should embrace it. Blue says you're born as a blank slate and you can become everything you want. The idea that you are born into a predetermined role is 100% green, no doubt.
This is the philosophical explanation, and I'm sure MaRo will talk at length about all of this on Monday. But I'm not saying it can't be done, the "predetermination" part is green at its core, but it can definitely make sense in white too. You mentioned stagnation and control. Stagnation meaning "keeping things as they are" can be various colors, depending on the motivation. Why do I want to keep things as they are?
• Because they are perfect as they are = green (no doubt on this)
• Because that lets me enforce my laws = white
• Because that lets me take or keep control of them and/or gives me the most information = blue
• Because that gives me power = black
What I was meaning is just to be careful to not go green's way about this, because the concept can be green. The Brotherhood obviously doesn't care if things are perfect as they are, but they do care about enforcing laws, keeping control, and having power. Thus, Esper colors.
Mechanically I was thinking more about using CMC as a parameter, something like "Creatures with CMC X (or less?) gain [BONUS]", or something like the 5 power theme in Naya but with CMC: "Target creature with CMC X (or less?) does such and such". One thing I'm certain is that we should try to avoid using protection, as it's no longer evergreen. I'll definitely have to think more about this.
I hope I've been able to clarify what I meant. If you need further explanation, you know where to find me! Or just wait for MaRo on Monday.
EDIT: You posted answers to my comments while I was writing this. The above is in reply to post #12. Below is the reply to post #13. Sorry for the confusion.
I like this idea, but are we sure we don't want any more actual cities beside the capital?
Oops, it shows I have never read it!
Right, I didn't think of that. So he's definitely Esper colored.
This is exactly what I loved about the Ormos idea since you first pitched it. I definitely want to make this one of the main themes of the set.
No, this is not what I meant. We can use it here without any problem, what I was saying was that even if we use it here I'm still going to use it in my future set too anyway.
And here, at the contrary of the cities, I do feel strongly about this. I thought about it when I was writing one of my posts yestarday and it was like an enlightenment to me. Do you know when you're suddenly hit by an idea and you instinctively know it's the right idea? Well, that's how I feel about this. And yes, that makes "Father Dahl" not only make sense but be necessary.
Agreed. This is a delicate point. The world feels like it wants to do that, but I don't think we actually should. We can have separate workcamps for men and women (as it was in real history I think), and we may have all the people in power be man, but I don't think we should go any further than that. It does not disturb me, but I really don't want to potentially hurt somebody else's feelings. We can also have a majority of our planeswalkers being male, but I think at least one female among the five in the block is due.
I'm honest: I do care about that. I don't want to have our work potentially be "ruined" by Wizard later. I raised this concern when brainstorming for Extinctia too. I'd like our worlds to feel like they could be part of the actual multiverse without contradictions. If we have a way for Bolas to care and send Tezzeret on Ormos and then calling him back to himself by the end of the block, it may be doable, but otherwise I'd prefer to avoid it.
I am happy that you like my implementation of your idea. Yeah, let's (try to) do this! (and let's hope playtest won't tell us they feel too oppressive...)
I see this more as a refinement rather than a change. I'm ok with this. I may try to write a recap of his story in the next days.
Wonderful idea! I'd like to see what they do with Gideon on Zendikar before "hiring" him for Ormos, but there's time for that. Like above, what I care about is that his eventual involvement in Ormos doesn't create contradictions with actual canon. That's what I care about.
Right. I didn't think of that. So Human Rebel it is.
Me too. That's definitely not easy.
Me too.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Your thoughts on women as second class citizens being seen as offensive makes me think we should highlight it. What if 137-M is actually 137-F, and was female instead of male? I'm not positive we want that, but I think it would be pretty cool if it was a woman that led the rebels to freedom. After completely disregarding women as second class citizens, The Brotherhood is eventually overthrown by a rebellion led by one. Another thing that needs to be thought about is, why would the rebellion let some person (male or female) that just escaped a life in a workcamp be their leader? One thought is, if the people of Ormos don't know about planeswalkers, someone that suddenly appears that seems to have as much power as Father Dahl would be a great way to expose his sham. It would prove that he is no god, but just an ordinary planeswalker (not that planeswalkers are ordinary, but they are more ordinary than God). I think that works. What do others think of 137-F (in my mind the M in 137-M's name stands for male)?
I thought of this as an idea for the rebellion last night. I might even like it....
Indignant - Whenever <cardname> becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, <effect>.
Examples
Resentful Insurgent
Creature - Human Rebel
Haste
Indignant - Whenever Resentful Insurgent becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, it deals 2 damage to that spell or ability's controller.
2/1
Hidden Revolutionary
Creature - Human Rebel
First strike
Indignant - Whenever Hidden Revolutionary becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, exile Hidden Revolutionary, then return it to the battlefield under its owner's control.
4/3
This could also be:
Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, <effect>.
Resentful Insurgent
Creature - Human Rebel
Haste
Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, Resentful Insurgent deals 2 damage to that spell or ability's controller.
2/1
Cardname
Enchantment
Rebel creatures you control get +1/+1
Indignation - Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, put a 1/1 white and green Rebel creature token onto the battlefield.
I think either version does a good job of showing that the citizens of Ormos are getting fed up with The Brotherhood, and are starting to push back more on their rule. I think the second option is far more powerful, and also has more room for development. The second version could be seen on noncreature permanents even. Is it bad that it depends on your opponent to work? It doesn't do anything if your opponent isn't targeting your creatures, but neither does hexproof, and that's super strong. What do people think?
Edit: I wouldn't want the set to turn into a male vs female set at all, I just think that 137-M being 137-F might be an added element that makes the block even cooler. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
Edit2: I could see a romance between 137-F and whatever planeswalker finds her when she planeswalks away. MTG could use a good romance. By the way, this could still work even if we keep it as 137-M....what if Chandra was the one to find 137-M? I guess this wouldn't work though if we don't want to do anything that wouldn't work with a potential real future story line. Unless 137-whatever dies in some heroic fashion at the end of the story. That would make the romance short and passionate, and wouldn't interfere with any future story. It would just be a side story for some planeswalker. This is all pretty much just stream of consciousness thinking though, I'm not even sure I'm in favor of what I'm proposing myself.
BTW, if we do want another planeswalker to follow 137-M back to Ormos, wouldn't that planeswalker end up being co-leader in the rebellion? I think that a romance would make that make more sense, otherwise what's in it for the other planeswalker? 137-M is doing it because it's his/her home plane. Edit: The other plaeswalker is doing it because he/she is in love with 137-M/F. This would make it so that there is more than the usual time between the first and second set of the block though. It would be cool if the three set structure still existed. We could potentially planeswalk away from Ormos for a second small set that shows what happens while 137-M/F is gone on another plane. Then planeswalk back to Ormos for the final rebellion. This is probably just not possible though, since we are working to the new Magic structure. To be honest, this is the first time I've tried to make a block using the new 2 set structure, I think it impedes story telling. Stories need a beginning, a middle, and an end. It's like taking The Empire Strikes Back out of Star Wars! I guess Wizards is getting around this now by making the story a continuing arc from block to block, unfortunately we don't have that luxury.
I'm definitely going to have to write a synopsis of where we're at soon. I'm starting to get confused.
Edit3: Revisionist history is major theme in many dystopian novels, this could explain why the people of Ormos do not know about planeswalkers, they have been erased from history by Father Dahl. That would make it difficult to have more than one planeswalker (Father Dahl) in the set though. Perhaps Father Dahl has a planeswalker imprisoned that no one knows about. Or Father Dahl has installed a chip in him that prevents him from being able to planeswalk, but he still has his other powers. He could be the leader of the rebellion in the first set before 137-? escapes. Do we have to have 3 planeswalkers in the first set? What if the story really justifies not having that many?
I'm sorry, I'll try to stop going off on tangents at break neck speeds moving forward if I can. I still need to respond to lion's last post.
Not by me, though, but someone could feel bad about it. Having 137 be female could help with that a LOT in my opinion.
There is a really nice irony in this. It absolutely does work. I'd support it.
So essentially a reverse heroic? In theory it works but I really think it would have some problem in playtest, namely happening too rarely to be relevant. If I'm your opponent, I'd only target a creature with such an ability if I'm about to lose the game. It also would make the game less interactive instead of more.
I'm not opposed to that, but as you say yourself, the male/female aspect, which romance is clearly a part of, should not be the focus of the block, just a side subtheme.
Yes, me too. I'd say we stop for a moment, so that you have the time to write that and Indighost and Tilwin have the chance to join us and tell us their opinions.
I like this idea. That underlined "or" would need to be "and" in my opinion, otherwise he/she could just planeswalk away to escape from prison. I'm not sure the Rebels need a leader in the first set, they aren't as organized yet. In the new "two set paradigm", how MaRo has called it, the default is five planeswalkers per block, of which three in the large set and two in the small one. This is to keep the same number of planeswalkers in a year without core sets printing five or six of them in a bunch. We could probably find some solution: have planeswalkers with separate side stories (like Tibalt and Tamiyo on Innistrad), or maybe show some of those past planeswalkers Father Dahl erased every information about? I like this last thought. Our three in the first set could be Father Dahl, the imprisoned chipped planeswalker and one that visited Ormos long ago but Father Dahl erased every trace of his/her visit.
I'd say now let's pause for a moment, gather our thoughts and wait for opinions from others in the team.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Good idea. The next post from either of us should be one organizing our thoughts up to this point. I'll do my best to that soon, but that's a good chunk of organized time, and I only get time in chaotic bursts.
Edit: One question.....Can you have an imprisoned planewalker, and a memory of a planeswalker be represented on cards? The imprisoned planeswalker I can kind of see (a "free" planeswalker with a chip I can totally see), but the memory of planeswalker seems weird to me. BTW, the difference beteen the planeswalker being imprisoned, and 137-M/F being imprisoned, is that at least peole know about 137-M/F, the planeswalker would need to be an Area 51 type secret.
And that's exactly what I meant.
It is a bit weird indeed, it was just an idea for how to fit a third planeswalker. And anyway, what I meant was kind of Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury or Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath: WE are presented with that planeswalker's past visit to Ormos and we see him/her how he/she was back then when he/she visited, but only Father Dahl would know now. To say it in another way, it would be Father Dahl's memory, not the Ormosians' one (which doesn't exist because Father Dahl erased it).
Yes, that's true, but if there were another planeswalker on Ormos, Father Dahl would definitely capture him/her, imprison him/her and somehow erase all eventual memories Ormosian citizen might have of him/her (might Father Dahl also be a mind mage?). He'd do this to preserve his power. As you said, when Ormosians discover he's not that unique, things will start to change, but we don't want that to happen yet.
Ok, now let's really pause for a moment and gather our thoughts!
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yes these are giant walls of text, which is why Lion and I stopped until I can post a summary of where we are. I didn't get to it last night, but I will put it up tonight for sure. We are still very much in the formative stages of the set. That's all I can say for now, I gotta to work.
I might write a blog post too later (as I did with Extinctia) to better organize our thoughts, but that's in addition to Flatline's coming synopsis. Let's establish where we are before answering futher question (and we already have from both Indighost and Tilwin, but please add more if you have).
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
My attempt at a design goal….
We want people to experience what life is like when white aligned philosophies are taken too far, when justice and order become oppressive laws and a homogenized existence.
The Brotherhood is predominantly W/U/B.
The Rebellion is predominantly W/R/G. It uses the Rebel creature type, although it doesn’t use the old Rebel mechanic.
137 is a mono-white Human Rebel in the first set, and a W/R planeswalker in the second. He/she has lived all his/her life in a workcamp, which is where we find him/her in the first set. At the end of the first set, his/her spark ignites, and she planeswalks out of the workcamp to a plane yet to be determined. There he/she may or may not meet up with another planeswalker that he/she may or may not fall in love with. This planeswalker may or may not accompany 137 back to Ormos to aid in the rebellion. 137 will be given a name in the second set, possibly by the planeswalker he/she encounters there.
Father Dahl is the “God” of his religion. He is a planeswalking artificer that is most likely Esper colors. He rules the plane of Ormos with his strict religious laws, and by using his creations to keep a close eye on his people. Nobody knows that Father Dahl is a planeswalker. Father Dahl is not native to Ormos. Right?
The citizens of Ormos are completely unaware of the existence of planeswalkers. Father Dhal has had all record of them erased from history. (I think he’ll need to have been in power longer than we said before to make this work. Perhaps he has implanted himself with various devices that have allowed him to live longer than normal? This would help his God status.)
The set features a lot of artifacts, although there is not necessarily an artifact theme.
Lion and I have both agreed that we like the implant ability. It is an equipment subtype that can be attached to creatures your opponents control. They have negative effects.
The first set shows Ormos as it has been since Father Dahl came to rule. In this set, the rebellion is moving in covert ways to undermine The Brotherhood and recruit new members.
Detain is a returning mechanic for The Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood controls all of Ormos.
What is the lay of the land on Ormos? What are the cities? What is the wilderness like?
What creatures inhabit Ormos? Lion and I were both saying that Elves don’t seem to fit, but Goblins, and possibly Vedalken do. We need more than that I think. Also, what is the wildlife like? To be honest, this is the thing I’m having the most difficult time coming up with. There are too many creatures that don’t seem to fit with what is in my head (Angels, Demons, Elves, Vampires), I think that’s a problem. Can we exclude a bunch of creatures that generally show up in every Magic set? Do we want to?
Do we want 137-M/F to be male or female? Do we like the meeting a planeswalker idea? Does that planeswalker follow him/her back to Ormos? Do they fall in love?
What other mechanics do we want? Brotherhood ideas…Something based on a caste system, perhaps dealing with CMC? Something dealing with reeducation or revising history? Something based on invasion of privacy? Rebellion ideas….Something to do with law breaking. Something dealing with how many creatures are in exile (to represent the rebel’s anger over losing more and more people to the camps). I suggested the ability below, although Lion thought it wasn’t interactive enough…
This could be on any Rebel aligned permanent. Lion compared it to a reverse Heroic, and thought it wouldn’t come into play frequently enough. I feel like it would play more like a soft Hexproof for all your creatures, and would guarantee value should any of your creatures be removed outside of combat. I think it would setup interesting choices when you’re holding removal, but keep hoping to just get out a blocker. I think it would factor into gameplay quite a bit. It is meant to represent the fact that the citizens of Ormos are getting fed up with The Brotherhood’s oppressive ways, and are beginning to push back. The ability could also be called defiance.
Who are the other planeswalkers on Ormos? If planeswalkers other than Father Dahl exist on the plane, how is it that the existence of planeswalkers isn’t known by the Ormosians? (It was suggested that perhaps Dahl has implanted a chip in (and possibly imprisoned) another planeswalker, that has stolen his ability to planeswalk. This could work, but I’m not sure how we come up with a third. Could we just have 2 in the first set, and 3 in the second (Dahl, 137, and the planeswalker that accompanies him/her back to Ormos)? I picture this block being large – large anyway.)
However, most of all I wanted you to do the summary for the first time as the creator of the original idea, and in fact I'm glad I did this because a new detail came up that makes acceptable the 2-3 planeswalker split: this block is double large! I didn't know it until now! Anyway, this has implications in limited: what's the environment when the second set comes out? I'll definitely make a blog post about this as I already said. I'll reread this with fresh eyes and get back to the questions tomorrow.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Oops, I didn't mean to include that. I've been thinking lately that maybe Dahl could have a card representing him in both sets, but in the second set he becomes exposed for who he truly is, and his new card would have his real name. It would provide symmetry with 137 also gaining a new name. One character would go from a nameless prisoner to a planewide hero, while the other would go from a god to an ousted sham. It's just one of a million thoughts I've had rolling around in my head, I didn't mean to include it. Anyway, I look forward to your blog.
I expect it needs a certain degree of magic, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have it as MTG lore (no mana = no spells = nothing to play).
As for the technology, I expect just like any other plane, there ought to be something on Ormos worth all this technological focus. It certainly doesn't feel Izzet to me. I'll be back on my "guess" on this.
I picture Ormos having as much magic as the next plane. The technology comes from Dahl, and I think it should be magic based.
- How did the Brotherhood appear and what was Ormos like before it? Does the block start with the rise of the Brotherhood and the beginning of its dominance, or does it begin with the liberation?
Why not just split the block into two? The rise of the Brotherhood and its fall?
The block starts after The Brotherhood has been in power for quite some time, enough that they have successfully rewritten the history involving how they came to power to begin with. We have not yet discussed how The Brotherhood came to be, although I do have some thoughts. This block will really only focus on the rise of the rebellion, and the fall of The Brotherhood. To be honest, this question just gave me a new thought. The true story of how Father Dahl came to power could be left a mystery, which could then be shown in a prequel block at some point, but that’s another set. Either way, we still need to hammer out how Dahl came to power, perhaps both The Brotherhood version, and the real version.
- Who else is involved?
Organization focused on control and using technology. Sounds awfully familiar to me. I wonder where else have I heard about a secret organization in the Magic Universe? (hint: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and the Infinite Consortium)
I had the idea of having Father Dahl turn out to be Tezzeret earlier in this thread, but we’re not sure how that could work into the actual MTG storyline. I would still like Dahl’s true identity to be exposed in the second set though. Perhaps a different member of the Consortium?
- What's with the color split?
So I get white is supposed to be this big thing, but I'm not sure it's the right approach. Why not just split the five colors for both factions - resistance and brotherhood? Very "Return to Mirrodin" and it keeps all the colors happy. I suppose for the Brotherhood we can consider several "departments", among which you guys already mentioned the whole religious facade (which makes plenty of sense - great means of manipulating the masses) as for the resistance, there can be factions involved which are either racial or geographically split (or why not both?).
I really want the main focus of the set to basically be “white gone bad”. I am starting to think that we will need a few different nations on Ormos though, although they should all be controlled by The Brotherhood. What if the plane was split into five nations (one for each color), each filled with some different race (elves for green, Goblins: Red, Blue: ???, Black: ???, White: Humans), and before Dahl took over these five nations were at what amounted to a religious war. Dahl finds the plane and joins the Human nation thus tipping the war in their favor. This is pretty much just thinking aloud though. I'm not opposed to splitting the colors differently per se, but I would like to keep the white focus (just for story, not for mechanics or card count)
- So why does the brotherhood rely on technology?
Magic sounds quite dangerous to me in a world where total control is wanted. So what if the Brotherhood had in fact found a way to control magic on the plane? I am thinking by means of some metal or special material or something, they could have spread via religious means of course. The idea could've of course been planted to the Brotherhood in the first place by some external source (whatever it may be).
The “technology” The Brotherhood uses comes from Dahl. They use it to police the citizens. As far as impeding magic is concerned, I have had this thought myself, but I’m not too sure about it. I do think Dahl should have some device that he is using to keep planeswalker from coming to, or leaving Ormos. I think this device should be destroyed at the end of the set, and it should coincide with 137 gaining her spark in some way. I do like the idea that they could have made magic taboo in their religion. I’ll have to keep thinking on this.
- Less usage of magic seems to encourage colorless mana
So instead of just focusing on artifacts, how would it be like if there was this whole colorless cycle? Or if that sounds too "pie-breaking-risky", maybe it would be the right moment to bring back Monocolored Hybrid? (such as in Beseech the Queen)
I think we need to decide whether we really want less magic before we decide on this.
Edit: BTW, these are just my thoughts, by no means is anything set in stone. Just to be clear.