Task feels weird to me in that the moving of the counter doesn't seems connected to the actual ability.
What if Task was combined to windup instead? Would this make more sense?
Wing test-automaton 3
Artifact Creature - Artificier
2/2
Windup 1U (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 1U and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~, target creature gains flying until end of turn.
Fabricate Assistant 2(2/R)
Artifact Creature - homunculus
3/1
Windup 3R (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay R and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~, you may discard a card. If you do, return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
Assistant manager 3(2/B)(2/B)
Artifact Creature - Ogre
3/2
Menace
Windup 4B (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4B and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~, lose two life and draw two cards.
Skittering shinesteel 3
Artifact Creature - Ogre
2/4
Windup 1W or 1G (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4B and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Or even have the number of counter placed on the creature be variable?
Unsuspecting killing machine 3
Artifact creature - horror
3/3
Windup 6 - 7 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 7 and put 6 +1/+1 counter on this)
Brass ladybug 1
Artifact creature - insect
0/1
flying
Windup 1 - 1 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 1 and put 1 +1/+1 counter on this)
I just ran into this thread, but I loved the original Archester. I'd love to help out.
I was thinking of an artifact mechanic, what about a kinship variant, but expanded. Using a revealed card as a trigger or a condition is unexplored space. Name- If you revealed an artifact card this turn, effect.
or name - Whenever you reveal at least one artifact card, effect.
Examples: (Using Power Surge as a placeholder name)
SparkstreamR
Instant
As you cast Sparkstream, reveal the top card of your library.
Sparkstream deals two damage to target creature or player. Power Surge- If you revealed an artifact card this turn, Sparkstream deals 4 damage to that creature or player instead.
Arc Howler2RR
Creature - Hound Construct Power Surge - If you revealed an artifact card this turn, Arc Howler has Menace. (It can only be blocked by two or more creatures) 2: Reveal the top card of your library.
4/3
This would give a bit of randomness (what do you reveal?), give new power to reveal cards, and create a mechanic can be built around a bit.(In the above example, Sparkstream could turn on your Arc Howler). Just some ideas to kick around
I feel like Windup X will work better for us both flavour and mechanic wise. Because after all, a Titan would take longer to windup than a small bird. I have another idea for Windup but I'm not sure how to write it. Basically, I feel like Winding up should be something you can do forcefully at a cost. Like, if you windup while there are still +1/+1 counters on the creature, you remove them first, then add the +1/+1. The cost could very well be to tap the creature. (My thinking behind tap is that you are taking it out for repair for a while.) So that way, if you know somehow that your opponent is holding a big damage spell, you could save your big Windup by literally wasting mana every so often to keep it from falling back in the range of spells.
Also, I am still working on finding an alternative for the R/B Mechanic.
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Current Decks:
MODERN: RG Shamanism RG WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
I feel like Windup X will work better for us both flavour and mechanic wise. Because after all, a Titan would take longer to windup than a small bird. I have another idea for Windup but I'm not sure how to write it. Basically, I feel like Winding up should be something you can do forcefully at a cost. Like, if you windup while there are still +1/+1 counters on the creature, you remove them first, then add the +1/+1. The cost could very well be to tap the creature. (My thinking behind tap is that you are taking it out for repair for a while.) So that way, if you know somehow that your opponent is holding a big damage spell, you could save your big Windup by literally wasting mana every so often to keep it from falling back in the range of spells.
Good idea! I don't think it makes sense to put this option on small windup numbers like from 1 to 3, but it should definitively be considered for anything greater than 3. Although this means it shouldn't be incorporated into the windup keyword, and instead just be a separate activated ability. This way the windup trigger can be a bit more powerful, really worth a full card. I'm just concerned players will think putting the counters on the creature via the forced windup triggers the windup ability.
Unsuspecting killing machine 3
Artifact creature - horror
3/3
Windup 6 - 7 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 7 and put 6 +1/+1 counter on this) 8,T : Put +1/+1 counters on ~ until it has 7. Activate this only anytime you could play a sorcery.
Once more with feelings 4R
Artifact creature - Eidolon construct
2/3
Windup 4 - 4R (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4R and put 4 +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~ each player discards his or her hand and draws that many cards. 6,T : Put +1/+1 counters on ~ until it has 4. Activate this only anytime you could play a sorcery.
EDIT : Sorcery speed would be best for forced windup
I feel like Windup X will work better for us both flavour and mechanic wise. Because after all, a Titan would take longer to windup than a small bird. I have another idea for Windup but I'm not sure how to write it. Basically, I feel like Winding up should be something you can do forcefully at a cost. Like, if you windup while there are still +1/+1 counters on the creature, you remove them first, then add the +1/+1. The cost could very well be to tap the creature. (My thinking behind tap is that you are taking it out for repair for a while.) So that way, if you know somehow that your opponent is holding a big damage spell, you could save your big Windup by literally wasting mana every so often to keep it from falling back in the range of spells.
Good idea! I don't think it makes sense to put this option on small windup numbers like from 1 to 3, but it should definitively be considered for anything greater than 3. Although this means it shouldn't be incorporated into the windup keyword, and instead just be a separate activated ability. This way the windup trigger can be a bit more powerful, really worth a full card. I'm just concerned players will think putting the counters on the creature via the forced windup triggers the windup ability.
Unsuspecting killing machine 3
Artifact creature - horror
3/3
Windup 6 - 7 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 7 and put 6 +1/+1 counter on this) 8,T : Put +1/+1 counters on ~ until it has 7.
Once more with feelings 4R
Artifact creature - Eidolon construct
2/3
Windup 4 - 4R (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4R and put 4 +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~ each player discards his or her hand and draws that many cards. 6,T : Put +1/+1 counters on ~ until it has 4.
Hmmm... I'm wondering what Force Windup like you have it right now would do with the timing. Instant speed seems iffy for something that could potentially turns out very powerful.
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Current Decks:
MODERN: RG Shamanism RG WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
Windup originally had a variable cost, but it felt too much like Monstrous so I opted for a small fixed cost 2. Ideally a player should get to Windup his or her "toys" more than once. High Windup costs will only ever be activated once, making it feel like colorless Monstrous. Variable costs also feel random rather than "like clockwork". A static cost also serves as a built-in timer which makes development easier and conveys better clockwork flavor.
EDIT: That being said, I'm not dead set against a variable cost, but I would like to stay away from any version of Windup that winds up functioning like Monstrous. Even large windups would still only have "windup 2".
Just spitballing:
Clockwork Colossus (Rare) 8
Artifact Creature - Golem
8/8
Clockwork Colossus enters the battlefield tapped and doesn't untap during your untap step.
Trample, Indestructible
Windup (If there's no counters on this, you may pay 2 and put two +1/+1 counters on it. Windup only as a sorcery.)
At the beginning of our upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from Clockwork Colossus.
Whenever you windup Clockwork Colossus, untap it.
I was thinking of an artifact mechanic, what about a kinship variant, but expanded. Using a revealed card as a trigger or a condition is unexplored space. Name- If you revealed an artifact card this turn, effect.
or name - Whenever you reveal at least one artifact card, effect.
The original Archester actually used this ability a bit, but only on one or two cards. While I think the variance is fun in small doses, I'm not sure it'll work as a major mechanic. Clash and Kinship had similar issues that held them back.
Also, I am still working on finding an alternative for the R/B Mechanic.
FWIW, I don't think we need a RB mechanic specifically. I'm actually more interested in mechanics that fit into black and/or green than in red, since red already fits naturally with artifacts.
Good idea! I don't think it makes sense to put this option on small windup numbers like from 1 to 3, but it should definitively be considered for anything greater than 3. Although this means it shouldn't be incorporated into the windup keyword, and instead just be a separate activated ability. This way the windup trigger can be a bit more powerful, really worth a full card. I'm just concerned players will think putting the counters on the creature via the forced windup triggers the windup ability.
I think it would be a bad idea to have this ability appear on multiple cards. It muddies the water in terms of what Wind Up means. This is kind of an "all or one" situation: either this kind of "forced windup" should be built into the mechanic somehow, or it should appear at most on one card (which will be the special "forced windup" card). Kind of like how there was only one monstrosity card with a cost reduction ability.
Windup originally had a variable cost, but it felt too much like Monstrous so I opted for a small fixed cost 2. Ideally a player should get to Windup his or her "toys" more than once. High Windup costs will only ever be activated once, making it feel like colorless Monstrous. Variable costs also feel random rather than "like clockwork". A static cost also serves as a built-in timer which makes development easier and conveys better clockwork flavor.
Personally I don't feel like variable costs messes with the flavor, at least not as much as a variable number of counters would. However, if we're sticking to two counters (and potentially also with 2 as a fixed cost), it sorta becomes hard to make the ability feel especially powerful.
One option might be to let players wind up their creatures as much as possible ala Outlast. I'm not sure how exactly that would look, but being able to wind my creature up a bunch and have it "run" for more than just two turns might be something fun to explore.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I can see your point. What I will say is this. We are at a crossroad. Both versions are cool, we can't use both. We will need to choose on one.
Stable Windup
Feels more like managing a clockwork, requiring you to control your mana so that everything keeps running.
Mechanic is easier to understand.
Could see an easier integration with existing creatures. (Artifact creatures you control have Windup)
Flex Windup
More realistic in that bigger stuff requires more winding up and stay active longer.
Mana Intensity is spread more as some stuff powers down sooner than other.
Smaller creatures when not wound up making for easier punishment of deactivated creatures.
Personally, I can't even decide which one I would love to see developped around.
EDIT: If we want to follow the Outlast root, why not have Windup "only as a sorcery or as long as there is another Windup trigger of this creature on the stack." We still keep the 2 cost/2 counter and only if no counter.
Also, I am still working on finding an alternative for the R/B Mechanic.
FWIW, I don't think we need a RB mechanic specifically. I'm actually more interested in mechanics that fit into black and/or green than in red, since red already fits naturally with artifacts.
I finished looking over Archester's card pool. I found that 118 cards out of 229 (more than half) can be played with only colourless mana. This is a huge number! It's a greater as-fan than old Mirrodin (which had 142/306 artifacts). I know not all of them are artifacts (88 of them are, which is the same as Scar of Mirrodin), although I'm making a point that the set needs more coloured design space to breathe. The artifact theme is too dominant. You have enough good artifact and steam design to fill both a Large and Small set. If not a keyword, I think it would be good to have a mechanism in BR (and also BG) that goes on coloured cards, and doesn't reference artifact at all. Some more number crunch :
Number of non-artifacts having the word "artifact" in it :
Mirrodin : 64 out of 306 (20.9)
Scars of Mirrodin : 48 out of 249 (19.3%)
Archester : 61 out of 229 (26.6%) The set is more artifact heavy than old Mirrodin. That's at least saying something!
One option might be to let players wind up their creatures as much as possible ala Outlast. I'm not sure how exactly that would look, but being able to wind my creature up a bunch and have it "run" for more than just two turns might be something fun to explore.
I don't think this is better.
Windup 2W (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay X2W and put X plus two +1/+1 counter on this)
Do you want to be able to windup any turn?
ill be happy to design for whatever version of Windup you settle on. Here's a couple of other ideas:
Outlands Wanderer (Common) 2R
Creature - Human Nomad
2/2
Savage (Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.)
Defiant Stance (Common) W
Instant
Untap target creature. It gets +1/+0 until end of turn. Tenacious - If you control a creature with toughness four or greater, that creature gains indestructible until end of turn.
Traderoads Outlaw (Common) B
Creature - Human Nomad
1/2
Geared (This creature gets +1/+1 as long as it's equipped.)
Boiler Room (Uncommon) 3
Artifact
Ratchet (T: Put a charge counter on this.)
When Boiler Room has three or more charge counters on it, sacrifice it and it deals 2 damage to each creature and player.
Scrap Golem (Uncommon) 4
Artifact Creature - Golem
1/1
Whenever an artifact card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Scrap Golem.
Salvage (Exile this card from your graveyard: Add 1 to your mana pool.)
Can we agree that Windup, in whatever form, will replace modular, and to start looking up for the last 1-2 keywords, and limited color pair themes?
I agree.
Moon-E, what did you meant by the 10 archetypes? Were you talking about the color combinations?
EDIT: What if we made an instant/sorcery Mechanic? (Think of Arcanes) This could act as the replacement for Spellslinging if we felt like it or maybe have it as a sub-theme for one of the group/splinter. If we have this as a subtheme, the main theme should probably be a mix of common mechanics.
I gave my opinion earlier that it would be best to have both a simple aggro mechanism and an instant/sorcery mechanism. For the instant/sorcery one, I thought a simple threshold mechanism like Morbid, Spell mastery or Ferocious would be enough. I'm not sure about adding a new sub-type like Arcane or Trap, as those tend to either be parasitic or irrelevant, though I'm curious to see an example of what you have in mind.
If we want to follow the Outlast root, why not have Windup "only as a sorcery or as long as there is another Windup trigger of this creature on the stack." We still keep the 2 cost/2 counter and only if no counter.
FWIW, mentioning the stack is almost never worth it.
I finished looking over Archester's card pool. I found that 118 cards out of 229 (more than half) can be played with only colourless mana. This is a huge number! It's a greater as-fan than old Mirrodin (which had 142/306 artifacts). I know not all of them are artifacts (88 of them are, which is the same as Scar of Mirrodin), although I'm making a point that the set needs more coloured design space to breathe. The artifact theme is too dominant. You have enough good artifact and steam design to fill both a Large and Small set. If not a keyword, I think it would be good to have a mechanism in BR (and also BG) that goes on coloured cards, and doesn't reference artifact at all. Some more number crunch :
Number of non-artifacts having the word "artifact" in it :
[list]
[*]Mirrodin : 64 out of 306 (20.9)
[*]Scars of Mirrodin : 48 out of 249 (19.3%)
[*]Archester : 61 out of 229 ([b]26.6%[/b]) The set is more artifact heavy than old Mirrodin. That's at least saying something!
The original archester had too much artifact focus, we know this.
I think what's important to remember is that even though the colorless hybrid cards can technically be cast in any deck, they rarely actually are. Paying the premium for most of the cards is a huge liability that most people are not going to utilize. What they colorless hybrid does a good job of though is allowing people to stay open in draft. Taking a hybrid card allows you to potentially play your early picks even if you end up in different colors, which is nice. We still need to bring down the volume of colorless cards, but we definitely shouldn't treat colorless cards and hybrid cards the same. A very important note is that Steam Powered, a major set mechanic, can only go on colorless cards or hybrid cards (which certainly contributed to their high numbers).
[b]Outlands Wanderer[/b] (Common) 2R
Creature - Human Nomad
2/2
Savage [i](Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.)[/i]
I know we talked about simple mechanics, but this feels a bit too bare bones.
[b]Defiant Stance[/b] (Common) W
Instant
Untap target creature. It gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
[i]Tenacious[/i] - If you control a creature with toughness four or greater, that creature gains indestructible until end of turn.
Interesting. High toughness is a fun theme, but does it fit?
[b]Traderoads Outlaw[/b] (Common) B
Creature - Human Nomad
1/2
Geared [i](This creature gets +1/+1 as long as it's equipped.)[/i]
I'm not sure if equipment should be a big theme here, but maybe that's just because equipment also play a large theme in another set I'm working on.
[b]Boiler Room[/b] (Uncommon) 3
Artifact
Ratchet [i](T: Put a charge counter on this.)[/i]
When Boiler Room has three or more charge counters on it, sacrifice it and it deals 2 damage to each creature and player.
This is a pretty decent mechanic that's very open ended, but will people like it as a full fledged mechanic? This type of design is done commonly enough without a keyword, and usually to middling effect. It's possible that counters could become a theme in this set, which would potentially also put Proliferate on the table.
[b]Scrap Golem[/b] (Uncommon) 4
Artifact Creature - Golem
1/1
Whenever an artifact card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Scrap Golem.
Salvage [i](Exile this card from your graveyard: Add 1 to your mana pool.)[/i]
Alternatively, what about Scavenge? Seems like an ok option.
I don't think we need a spell mechanic specifically, but we do need mechanics that can go on spells. For instance, Steam Powered is a mechanic we can use for spells already, so I don't think we need a second one dedicated solely too them.
List tags are malformed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Outlands Wanderer (Common) 2R
Creature - Human Nomad
2/2
Savage (Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.)
That is really too simple and a possible broken mechanic.
Defiant Stance (Common) W
Instant
Untap target creature. It gets +1/+0 until end of turn. Tenacious - If you control a creature with toughness four or greater, that creature gains indestructible until end of turn.
Erm, thats Ferocious, just with Toughness. Getting 4 T is much easier than getting 4 P, which could make this ability too broken with the right cards.
Traderoads Outlaw (Common) B
Creature - Human Nomad
1/2
Geared (This creature gets +1/+1 as long as it's equipped.)
Not bad, but I'm not sure if this is good enough to get its own keyword.
Boiler Room (Uncommon) 3
Artifact
Ratchet (T: Put a charge counter on this.)
When Boiler Room has three or more charge counters on it, sacrifice it and it deals 2 damage to each creature and player.
Also not sure if this should be a keyword.
Scrap Golem (Uncommon) 4
Artifact Creature - Golem
1/1
Whenever an artifact card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Scrap Golem.
Salvage (Exile this card from your graveyard: Add 1 to your mana pool.)
Well, that would be Scavenge for every card. Kinda broken, could not be on many cards due to possible brokenness, and if it's not on many cards it's not worth a keyword.
Sorry for posting it again, but I would really like to get a feedback on that mechanic:
How about another "colour does matter" mechanic opposing Steam-powered?
Code [Colour] X( You may tap X [coloured] non enchantment permanents as you cast this spell).
Similar to Kicker, additional effects happen if you pay Code [Colour]. Doesn't necessarily have to be in the same colour as the spell is, but since multicolour is a problem it could just be used in devoted monocoloured decks
This mechanic could go on anything except maybe lands, and it doesn't really block Steam Powered since steampowered artifacts can be coloured as well.
I came up with a similar color matters keyword, so there might be something there.
Incandescent - As long as there is two or more different colors among permanents you control, [EFFECT]
Both Code [colour] and Incandescent can go on any kind of spell as needed, and neither compete with Steam powered. For Code [colour], it'd be interesting if the player casting it could choose to tap up to X permanents, and to have a scaling effect like Multikicker whenever X is greater than 1. Like :
Code blue 1 -> You may cast this as though it had flash if you tapped a permanent as you cast it.
Code black 2 -> For each permanent you tapped as you cast this spell, draw a card and lose a life.
Code red 3 -> When ~ enters the battlefield, it deals 2 damage to target creature for each permanent you tapped as you cast it.
Seeing Savage made me think, there is an aggressive mechanic that exist in magic but have yet to be explored fully: Frenzy. (Frenzy Sliver) Pretty simple, maybe a little too much. Might want to cross it with a "When this creature is blocked" theme or some combat tricks. (which are classic in red/black/green)
Code and Incandescent are both fine mechanics but they don't really mesh with what's going on in the set. It's true that both don't fight for space as much as some of the other color suggestions do. In fact, Incandescent works pretty well here since colorless hybrid would allow you to play all sorts of colors in your deck. However, I'm not a huge fan because it pulls a lot of focus away from what else is going on. Things would be different if color mattering made sense with the flavor of Archester, but currently it doesn't. That doesn't mean we can't change the flavor, but unless we find something very thematic it feels like it doesn't fit.
Frenzy is a decent mechanic, but I feel like we're kind of just throwing things around and seeing what could work. Let's take a step back and talk about big picture stuff here.
What is the basic feel of Archester that we're looking for? IMO, it should be a sense of "building". Archester is top-down steampunk, and building things is kind of core to a steampunk aesthetic, be it exquisitely crafted sky-ships or scrapped together shotguns. This is why I feel Steam Powered is an excellent mechanic for this set: not only does colorless mana (and its connection to artifacts) tie in perfectly to the setting, but creating a steam mana-base requires a bunch of support cards. You have to actively put things together, but once you do you get the payoff. Upgrade was similar in this respect: you're combining a bunch of different artifacts to make one cool suped-up artifact.
The original Archester's main failing IMO was that it was too focused around stapling "artifact" to everything to have any sort of focus beyond that. While that wasn't bad, we should have taken the parts of the design that worked really well and ran with them. That's what I'd like to do here. This is also why I like Outlast or the persistent Windup versions: they allow you to build your creatures up over a long period of time. Scavenge and Proliferate are two mechanics I've brought up that also play into this theme. (If it weren't for the thematic clashing of Incandescent, it would also be a pretty decent mechanic.)
I think having an aggressive mechanic is a good idea to keep the whole set from getting stale (even though personally I prefer slow limited), but it needs to exist in a way that matches with the theme of the rest of the set. For instance, Battalion is an aggressive mechanic that requires you build up a squad before getting your bonus. It's possible I should bite the bullet and add an equipment theme into this set as well. Regardless, this is the sort of space I think we should be exploring.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I guess I need to do a more careful reading of the original stuff. I've generally been thinking of Archester society in terms of aristocrats/nobles and outcasts/outlaws, but there's certainly more to it. For now, here's a proposal for the "civilized" side of Archester society - Finesse.
Vectorian Guard (Common) 1W
Creature - Human Soldier
2/1
Vigilance Finesse - Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, Vectorian Guard gains first strike until end of turn.
Finesse is a potential mechanic for the civilized, aristocratic nobility of Archester. I think it has decent steampunk/swashbuckle flavor and has ample design space.
@MOON-E
I submitted Incandescent to fix the same hole Sunburst fixed for Mirrodin block. Maro said in one of his column that Sunburst was created after artifacts got too dominant of a theme in Mirrodin and Darksteel, and the whole point of the mechanism in Fifth Dawn was to go in the other direction, to correct their mistake, and to remove focus from the previous two set's main theme. You say it pulls focus away from what else is going on as if it is a bad thing, while I see it complementing the rest of the set and adding a new dimension player may not have cared about before. As for the flavour, how about mana on Archester react to other colors, just like chemical elements do in our world? If used alone, the mana rocks is best used as steam, but with the chemical reaction of combining different colors of mana, it could lead to explosive results, which is quite on theme of a Steampunk or Glasslamp fantasy world.
Right, but Sunburst was not a smashing success either. I mean, a lot of that had to do with it being drafted last (under the old system) where you couldn't build around it as well, but still. Plus Sunburst was in the third set; it's the kind of twist that you pull at the end of the block, not the start. Also, Mirrodin existed in an age of design that cared mostly about mechanical themes, whereas here we're looking for holistic themes. Sunburst worked better in Mirrodin because that set, while having lots of artifacts, didn't specifically have a theme about caring for colorless mana.
Don't get me wrong, I actually think encouraging 5 color decks is a really cool idea for this set. It's one of the few things that colorless hybrid allows for that Archester the first never really touched. However, I don't know if making a big keyword out of it is where we want to be. Colorless is a big theme here, and contrasting that with "play lots of colors" doesn't really make sense. Also, despite looking like opposites, aren't Steam Powered and Incandescent basically going to go in the same decks (lots of colorless hybrid cards)? It's not really opening new avenues of play so much as it's finding a different way to reward the same thing.
I would be more interested in Incandescent if it was proposed for a second set. For the large set though, I think 5 color should be a niche theme, not a major one.
Here's sort of what we're looking at right now: Steam Powered Windup (in some form) Upgrade (or a suitable replacement)
???
The complexity of this set might want us to consider using 4 mechanics instead of 5, but that's neither here nor there. Let's talk about what we're looking for in potential new mechanics:
- Make sense in a steampunk setting (especially the Frontier sections of Archester)
- Fit the general feeling of the set (building something up)
- Could go into Green and/or Black
- Bonus: Could go on spells
- Bonus: More aggressive or proactive
- Bonus: Doesn't necessarily involve artifacts
Potential returning mechanics: Outlast (in place of Windup), Scavenge, Proliferate
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Moon-E, what did you meant by the 10 archetypes? Were you talking about the color combinations?
Yes, I did.
I would do a quick rundown of what preliminary archetypes might be, but the problem is really that there aren't any. This is a really open area of the design, and filling it in would help quite a bit. I'm definitely interested in hearing all of your ideas for this.
What I can give is a flavor overview of the set, which might help inspire some of the archetypes:
(W/U) - Brass City: technologically progressive, controlling government, elitist, posh, ornate (U/B) - Darge (Iron City): industrious, corrupt, robber barons & exploited factory workers (B/R) - Outlands: American west, hot & arid, oppressed working folk and outlaw gangs (R/G) - Frontier: wilderness explorers & adventurers far from civilization (G/W) - Elves & keeper of the clockwork creatures (not very well fleshed out)
The enemy color pairs never really got that much development, but we did have what we called "spliter" groups that opposed each of the allied pairs.
Brass City had R Revolutionaries
Darge had G environmentalists
The Outlands had W Sheriffs
The Frontier had... well I'm not really sure, but we definitely talked about having Doc Brown type inventors in U
The Elves had...
Generally I don't think we need to structure our factions quite so rigidly (bant or tarkir this is not), but it is nice to know what colors can represent in this world.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
These are not intended to be or lead to wedge/faction mechanics etc. I strongly agree that we shouldn't structure our factions quite so rigidly.
WUR... Tinker. (Put an artifact token named Gadget onto the battlefield.)
UBG... Windup (If there's no counters on this, you may pay 2 and put two +1/+1 counters on it. Windup only as a sorcery.)
BRW... Geared - As long as Card Name is equipped, EFFECT.
RGU... Venture(Whenever this creature attacks, add that much G to your mana pool. Until end of turn, this mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end.)
GWB... Type Companion - When Card Name enters the battlefield, put an X/Y color Type creature token onto the battlefield.
I think Tinker has the potential to be a replacement for Upgrade, in that it would require having lots of synergistic cards working together to do anything.
Geared is pretty basic, but I'm not really sold yet. It's possible this is where a spell mechanic could go for the whole western shoot-out feel.
I'm not a huge fan of venture, mostly because of the G part. This is a weird set that having this make colorless would actually make it significantly better. However, could this be the spot for one of the many land-based "explore" mechanics that crop up now and then? Mana ramp is certainly the oldest method of "building".
Companion seems pretty random, considering there are tons of cards that do this without needing a keyword and tons of variations on it as well.
It's also worth noting that "steam", while a generic mechanic, should have some color identity. Bestow was in all 5 colors in Theros, but black and white still got more of it and more support.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
What if Task was combined to windup instead? Would this make more sense?
3
Artifact Creature - Artificier
2/2
Windup 1U (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 1U and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~, target creature gains flying until end of turn.
Fabricate Assistant
2(2/R)
Artifact Creature - homunculus
3/1
Windup 3R (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay R and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~, you may discard a card. If you do, return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
Assistant manager
3(2/B)(2/B)
Artifact Creature - Ogre
3/2
Menace
Windup 4B (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4B and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~, lose two life and draw two cards.
Skittering shinesteel
3
Artifact Creature - Ogre
2/4
Windup 1W or 1G (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4B and put two +1/+1 counter on this)
Or even have the number of counter placed on the creature be variable?
3
Artifact creature - horror
3/3
Windup 6 - 7 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 7 and put 6 +1/+1 counter on this)
Brass ladybug
1
Artifact creature - insect
0/1
flying
Windup 1 - 1 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 1 and put 1 +1/+1 counter on this)
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
I was thinking of an artifact mechanic, what about a kinship variant, but expanded. Using a revealed card as a trigger or a condition is unexplored space.
Name- If you revealed an artifact card this turn, effect.
or name - Whenever you reveal at least one artifact card, effect.
Examples: (Using Power Surge as a placeholder name)
SparkstreamR
Instant
As you cast Sparkstream, reveal the top card of your library.
Sparkstream deals two damage to target creature or player.
Power Surge- If you revealed an artifact card this turn, Sparkstream deals 4 damage to that creature or player instead.
Arc Howler 2RR
Creature - Hound Construct
Power Surge - If you revealed an artifact card this turn, Arc Howler has Menace. (It can only be blocked by two or more creatures)
2: Reveal the top card of your library.
4/3
This would give a bit of randomness (what do you reveal?), give new power to reveal cards, and create a mechanic can be built around a bit.(In the above example, Sparkstream could turn on your Arc Howler). Just some ideas to kick around
Also, I am still working on finding an alternative for the R/B Mechanic.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
3
Artifact creature - horror
3/3
Windup 6 - 7 (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 7 and put 6 +1/+1 counter on this)
8,T : Put +1/+1 counters on ~ until it has 7. Activate this only anytime you could play a sorcery.
Once more with feelings
4R
Artifact creature - Eidolon construct
2/3
Windup 4 - 4R (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay 4R and put 4 +1/+1 counter on this)
Whenever you windup ~ each player discards his or her hand and draws that many cards.
6,T : Put +1/+1 counters on ~ until it has 4. Activate this only anytime you could play a sorcery.
EDIT : Sorcery speed would be best for forced windup
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
Hmmm... I'm wondering what Force Windup like you have it right now would do with the timing. Instant speed seems iffy for something that could potentially turns out very powerful.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
EDIT: That being said, I'm not dead set against a variable cost, but I would like to stay away from any version of Windup that winds up functioning like Monstrous. Even large windups would still only have "windup 2".
Just spitballing:
Clockwork Colossus (Rare)
8
Artifact Creature - Golem
8/8
Clockwork Colossus enters the battlefield tapped and doesn't untap during your untap step.
Trample, Indestructible
Windup (If there's no counters on this, you may pay 2 and put two +1/+1 counters on it. Windup only as a sorcery.)
At the beginning of our upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from Clockwork Colossus.
Whenever you windup Clockwork Colossus, untap it.
The original Archester actually used this ability a bit, but only on one or two cards. While I think the variance is fun in small doses, I'm not sure it'll work as a major mechanic. Clash and Kinship had similar issues that held them back.
FWIW, I don't think we need a RB mechanic specifically. I'm actually more interested in mechanics that fit into black and/or green than in red, since red already fits naturally with artifacts.
I think it would be a bad idea to have this ability appear on multiple cards. It muddies the water in terms of what Wind Up means. This is kind of an "all or one" situation: either this kind of "forced windup" should be built into the mechanic somehow, or it should appear at most on one card (which will be the special "forced windup" card). Kind of like how there was only one monstrosity card with a cost reduction ability.
Personally I don't feel like variable costs messes with the flavor, at least not as much as a variable number of counters would. However, if we're sticking to two counters (and potentially also with 2 as a fixed cost), it sorta becomes hard to make the ability feel especially powerful.
One option might be to let players wind up their creatures as much as possible ala Outlast. I'm not sure how exactly that would look, but being able to wind my creature up a bunch and have it "run" for more than just two turns might be something fun to explore.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Mechanic is easier to understand.
Could see an easier integration with existing creatures. (Artifact creatures you control have Windup)
Mana Intensity is spread more as some stuff powers down sooner than other.
Smaller creatures when not wound up making for easier punishment of deactivated creatures.
Personally, I can't even decide which one I would love to see developped around.
EDIT: If we want to follow the Outlast root, why not have Windup "only as a sorcery or as long as there is another Windup trigger of this creature on the stack." We still keep the 2 cost/2 counter and only if no counter.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
This bring it's flavour more in line with Outlast, which is fine too. I just think we should pick one of the two ways to handle the ability, not both.
I finished looking over Archester's card pool. I found that 118 cards out of 229 (more than half) can be played with only colourless mana. This is a huge number! It's a greater as-fan than old Mirrodin (which had 142/306 artifacts). I know not all of them are artifacts (88 of them are, which is the same as Scar of Mirrodin), although I'm making a point that the set needs more coloured design space to breathe. The artifact theme is too dominant. You have enough good artifact and steam design to fill both a Large and Small set. If not a keyword, I think it would be good to have a mechanism in BR (and also BG) that goes on coloured cards, and doesn't reference artifact at all. Some more number crunch :
Number of non-artifacts having the word "artifact" in it :
I don't think this is better.
Windup 2W (At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a +1/+1 counter from this. If you can't, you may pay X2W and put X plus two +1/+1 counter on this)
Do you want to be able to windup any turn?
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
Outlands Wanderer (Common)
2R
Creature - Human Nomad
2/2
Savage (Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.)
Defiant Stance (Common)
W
Instant
Untap target creature. It gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
Tenacious - If you control a creature with toughness four or greater, that creature gains indestructible until end of turn.
Traderoads Outlaw (Common)
B
Creature - Human Nomad
1/2
Geared (This creature gets +1/+1 as long as it's equipped.)
Boiler Room (Uncommon)
3
Artifact
Ratchet (T: Put a charge counter on this.)
When Boiler Room has three or more charge counters on it, sacrifice it and it deals 2 damage to each creature and player.
Scrap Golem (Uncommon)
4
Artifact Creature - Golem
1/1
Whenever an artifact card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Scrap Golem.
Salvage (Exile this card from your graveyard: Add 1 to your mana pool.)
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
I agree.
Moon-E, what did you meant by the 10 archetypes? Were you talking about the color combinations?
EDIT: What if we made an instant/sorcery Mechanic? (Think of Arcanes) This could act as the replacement for Spellslinging if we felt like it or maybe have it as a sub-theme for one of the group/splinter. If we have this as a subtheme, the main theme should probably be a mix of common mechanics.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
The original archester had too much artifact focus, we know this.
I think what's important to remember is that even though the colorless hybrid cards can technically be cast in any deck, they rarely actually are. Paying the premium for most of the cards is a huge liability that most people are not going to utilize. What they colorless hybrid does a good job of though is allowing people to stay open in draft. Taking a hybrid card allows you to potentially play your early picks even if you end up in different colors, which is nice. We still need to bring down the volume of colorless cards, but we definitely shouldn't treat colorless cards and hybrid cards the same. A very important note is that Steam Powered, a major set mechanic, can only go on colorless cards or hybrid cards (which certainly contributed to their high numbers).
I know we talked about simple mechanics, but this feels a bit too bare bones.
Interesting. High toughness is a fun theme, but does it fit?
I'm not sure if equipment should be a big theme here, but maybe that's just because equipment also play a large theme in another set I'm working on.
This is a pretty decent mechanic that's very open ended, but will people like it as a full fledged mechanic? This type of design is done commonly enough without a keyword, and usually to middling effect. It's possible that counters could become a theme in this set, which would potentially also put Proliferate on the table.
Alternatively, what about Scavenge? Seems like an ok option.
I don't think we need a spell mechanic specifically, but we do need mechanics that can go on spells. For instance, Steam Powered is a mechanic we can use for spells already, so I don't think we need a second one dedicated solely too them.
List tags are malformed.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
That is really too simple and a possible broken mechanic.
Erm, thats Ferocious, just with Toughness. Getting 4 T is much easier than getting 4 P, which could make this ability too broken with the right cards.
Not bad, but I'm not sure if this is good enough to get its own keyword.
Also not sure if this should be a keyword.
Well, that would be Scavenge for every card. Kinda broken, could not be on many cards due to possible brokenness, and if it's not on many cards it's not worth a keyword.
Sorry for posting it again, but I would really like to get a feedback on that mechanic:
This mechanic could go on anything except maybe lands, and it doesn't really block Steam Powered since steampowered artifacts can be coloured as well.
Incandescent - As long as there is two or more different colors among permanents you control, [EFFECT]
Both Code [colour] and Incandescent can go on any kind of spell as needed, and neither compete with Steam powered. For Code [colour], it'd be interesting if the player casting it could choose to tap up to X permanents, and to have a scaling effect like Multikicker whenever X is greater than 1. Like :
Code blue 1 -> You may cast this as though it had flash if you tapped a permanent as you cast it.
Code black 2 -> For each permanent you tapped as you cast this spell, draw a card and lose a life.
Code red 3 -> When ~ enters the battlefield, it deals 2 damage to target creature for each permanent you tapped as you cast it.
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Frenzy is a decent mechanic, but I feel like we're kind of just throwing things around and seeing what could work. Let's take a step back and talk about big picture stuff here.
What is the basic feel of Archester that we're looking for? IMO, it should be a sense of "building". Archester is top-down steampunk, and building things is kind of core to a steampunk aesthetic, be it exquisitely crafted sky-ships or scrapped together shotguns. This is why I feel Steam Powered is an excellent mechanic for this set: not only does colorless mana (and its connection to artifacts) tie in perfectly to the setting, but creating a steam mana-base requires a bunch of support cards. You have to actively put things together, but once you do you get the payoff. Upgrade was similar in this respect: you're combining a bunch of different artifacts to make one cool suped-up artifact.
The original Archester's main failing IMO was that it was too focused around stapling "artifact" to everything to have any sort of focus beyond that. While that wasn't bad, we should have taken the parts of the design that worked really well and ran with them. That's what I'd like to do here. This is also why I like Outlast or the persistent Windup versions: they allow you to build your creatures up over a long period of time. Scavenge and Proliferate are two mechanics I've brought up that also play into this theme. (If it weren't for the thematic clashing of Incandescent, it would also be a pretty decent mechanic.)
I think having an aggressive mechanic is a good idea to keep the whole set from getting stale (even though personally I prefer slow limited), but it needs to exist in a way that matches with the theme of the rest of the set. For instance, Battalion is an aggressive mechanic that requires you build up a squad before getting your bonus. It's possible I should bite the bullet and add an equipment theme into this set as well. Regardless, this is the sort of space I think we should be exploring.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Vectorian Guard (Common)
1W
Creature - Human Soldier
2/1
Vigilance
Finesse - Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, Vectorian Guard gains first strike until end of turn.
Finesse is a potential mechanic for the civilized, aristocratic nobility of Archester. I think it has decent steampunk/swashbuckle flavor and has ample design space.
@MOON-E
I submitted Incandescent to fix the same hole Sunburst fixed for Mirrodin block. Maro said in one of his column that Sunburst was created after artifacts got too dominant of a theme in Mirrodin and Darksteel, and the whole point of the mechanism in Fifth Dawn was to go in the other direction, to correct their mistake, and to remove focus from the previous two set's main theme. You say it pulls focus away from what else is going on as if it is a bad thing, while I see it complementing the rest of the set and adding a new dimension player may not have cared about before. As for the flavour, how about mana on Archester react to other colors, just like chemical elements do in our world? If used alone, the mana rocks is best used as steam, but with the chemical reaction of combining different colors of mana, it could lead to explosive results, which is quite on theme of a Steampunk or Glasslamp fantasy world.
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
Don't get me wrong, I actually think encouraging 5 color decks is a really cool idea for this set. It's one of the few things that colorless hybrid allows for that Archester the first never really touched. However, I don't know if making a big keyword out of it is where we want to be. Colorless is a big theme here, and contrasting that with "play lots of colors" doesn't really make sense. Also, despite looking like opposites, aren't Steam Powered and Incandescent basically going to go in the same decks (lots of colorless hybrid cards)? It's not really opening new avenues of play so much as it's finding a different way to reward the same thing.
I would be more interested in Incandescent if it was proposed for a second set. For the large set though, I think 5 color should be a niche theme, not a major one.
Here's sort of what we're looking at right now:
Steam Powered
Windup (in some form)
Upgrade (or a suitable replacement)
???
The complexity of this set might want us to consider using 4 mechanics instead of 5, but that's neither here nor there. Let's talk about what we're looking for in potential new mechanics:
- Make sense in a steampunk setting (especially the Frontier sections of Archester)
- Fit the general feeling of the set (building something up)
- Could go into Green and/or Black
- Bonus: Could go on spells
- Bonus: More aggressive or proactive
- Bonus: Doesn't necessarily involve artifacts
Potential returning mechanics: Outlast (in place of Windup), Scavenge, Proliferate
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I would do a quick rundown of what preliminary archetypes might be, but the problem is really that there aren't any. This is a really open area of the design, and filling it in would help quite a bit. I'm definitely interested in hearing all of your ideas for this.
What I can give is a flavor overview of the set, which might help inspire some of the archetypes:
(W/U) - Brass City: technologically progressive, controlling government, elitist, posh, ornate
(U/B) - Darge (Iron City): industrious, corrupt, robber barons & exploited factory workers
(B/R) - Outlands: American west, hot & arid, oppressed working folk and outlaw gangs
(R/G) - Frontier: wilderness explorers & adventurers far from civilization
(G/W) - Elves & keeper of the clockwork creatures (not very well fleshed out)
The enemy color pairs never really got that much development, but we did have what we called "spliter" groups that opposed each of the allied pairs.
Brass City had R Revolutionaries
Darge had G environmentalists
The Outlands had W Sheriffs
The Frontier had... well I'm not really sure, but we definitely talked about having Doc Brown type inventors in U
The Elves had...
Generally I don't think we need to structure our factions quite so rigidly (bant or tarkir this is not), but it is nice to know what colors can represent in this world.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
WUR... Tinker. (Put an artifact token named Gadget onto the battlefield.)
UBG... Windup (If there's no counters on this, you may pay 2 and put two +1/+1 counters on it. Windup only as a sorcery.)
BRW... Geared - As long as Card Name is equipped, EFFECT.
RGU... Venture (Whenever this creature attacks, add that much G to your mana pool. Until end of turn, this mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end.)
GWB... Type Companion - When Card Name enters the battlefield, put an X/Y color Type creature token onto the battlefield.
0... Steam
Geared is pretty basic, but I'm not really sold yet. It's possible this is where a spell mechanic could go for the whole western shoot-out feel.
I'm not a huge fan of venture, mostly because of the G part. This is a weird set that having this make colorless would actually make it significantly better. However, could this be the spot for one of the many land-based "explore" mechanics that crop up now and then? Mana ramp is certainly the oldest method of "building".
Companion seems pretty random, considering there are tons of cards that do this without needing a keyword and tons of variations on it as well.
It's also worth noting that "steam", while a generic mechanic, should have some color identity. Bestow was in all 5 colors in Theros, but black and white still got more of it and more support.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing