Just make the creature indestructible UEOT instead. Problem solved.
Try reading my post again: It is still true that "you end up with the creature dying to SBAs with the activated ability on the stack".
It doesn't matter for this issue whether your creature does not have a regeneration shield yet because the activated ability is still on the stack or whether the creature is not yet indestructible because the ability is still on the stack.
Misread that. Still not hard to get around, though. Just move the sacrifice to the effect instead: "[cost]: Regenerate enchanted creature, then sacrifice ~."
The problem with that wording is that you can create multiple regeneration shields for 1 enchant. (Could be circumvented with "Activate only once.")
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Misread that. Still not hard to get around, though. Just move the sacrifice to the effect instead: "[cost]: Regenerate enchanted creature, then sacrifice ~."
The problem with that wording is that you can create multiple regeneration shields for 1 enchant. (Could be circumvented with "Activate only once.")
I'm curious: where did you get the idea I was advocating a free cost? I just wrote [cost] as in"whatever cost is appropriate" because it was mostly irrelevant to my argument.
ETA: I just realized I forgot to write it with indestructible because a single regeneration shield still has the same issue pointed out originally (it saves the reature from the "on-the-stack death", but not form the one the activation is intended to save it from ^_^;;;). Obviously the intended result is obtained with "[cost]: enchanted creature gains indestructible UEOT, then sacrifice ~."
Remember that BFZ had no colorless mana component, so it didn't need any at common. OGW, by comparison, had 5 C lands at common and that was a small set. If anything I think that points to wanting the colorless lands even more.
I'm a bigger fan of the Grim Lavamancer version of Trash than some of our earlier "Fuel" versions that used CMC (too complicated). However, how do we feel about making another ability word?
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Misread that. Still not hard to get around, though. Just move the sacrifice to the effect instead: "[cost]: Regenerate enchanted creature, then sacrifice ~."
The problem with that wording is that you can create multiple regeneration shields for 1 enchant. (Could be circumvented with "Activate only once.")
I'm curious: where did you get the idea I was advocating a free cost? I just wrote [cost] as in"whatever cost is appropriate" because it was mostly irrelevant to my argument.
ETA: I just realized I forgot to write it with indestructible because a single regeneration shield still has the same issue pointed out originally (it saves the reature from the "on-the-stack death", but not form the one the activation is intended to save it from ^_^;;;). Obviously the intended result is obtained with "[cost]: enchanted creature gains indestructible UEOT, then sacrifice ~."
Just to clarify my point, what I meant was that you could stack multiple cost before the first one could resolve (and not being able to sac doesn't fizzle the ability). But indestructibility doesn't stack anyway so whatever.
Remember that BFZ had no colorless mana component, so it didn't need any at common. OGW, by comparison, had 5 C lands at common and that was a small set. If anything I think that points to wanting the colorless lands even more.
I retract my comment. This is extremely valid. We should keep the mono-colorer filter lands.
However, how do we feel about making another ability word?
For what it is worth, Trash was already an ability word, so we are only replacing an ability word with another. I do not share your view that Components and Exploit are ability words in disguise. The way I see it, we have two ability words (Trash and Steam-powered), two keywords (Windup and Exploit) and one card-type mechanism (Component and tap-triggers). It seems fairly balanced to me.
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I retract my comment. This is extremely valid. We should keep the mono-colorer filter lands.
My question is more about wanting a new cycle or sticking with the old, bad one.
I'm not sure calling them "bad" is entirely appropriate or unbiased.
They certainly push steam-power hard but I disagree that that's a bad thing. One of the things I think we have a problem with now in the current set is the splashiblity of C, Oath has done that. We need to push somewhere else and the obvious direction is to have thing benefit from needing multiple colorless mana.
If we choose to go that direction, the original Lands would work really well. If we keep the current versions of several cards (such as Steam Strike) in the set, then we'll need to come up with a different cycle that doesn't produce such large amounts of colorless mana.
P.S. I for one welcome our new Lavamancer-style overlords.
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Well if everyone likes Lavamancer style, let's do that then.
@Raptor: If I remember correctly I originally made these lands, so I'm ok with calling them bad
My issue is that they've got such a huge split between how useful they are. If you want Steam they're great and if not then you have zero incentive to play them. This isn't true of cards like Unknown Shores, Crumbling Vestige, Holdout Settlement, etc. because these cards are at least playable (not great) if you're not looking for C. I would never play one of our current lands in a non-SP deck, and that's kind of an issue because we do have some light steam splashing themes (every color has at least one single-C SP card.)
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Would something along the lines of the Depletion Lands from Masques work? Or would they be too complex for commons? Something like:
Fertile Farmland Land [Common]
~ enters the battlefield with two depletion counters on it.
, remove a depletion counter from ~: Add to your mana pool and gain 1 life.
: Add to your mana pool.
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Depletion lands aren't bad but they do have an annoying side. Can't tell you how many games I've put a die on a vivid land and didn't touch it for the rest of the game.
Karoo's might be too strong, they're pretty warping in both original Ravnica and MM2, but that's only based on the two color ones.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Depletion lands aren't bad but they do have an annoying side. Can't tell you how many games I've put a die on a vivid land and didn't touch it for the rest of the game.
I hearty agree on the Vivids. That's why I put the colorless generation on the normal tap ability, it encourages you to use colorless mana. Having said that, what if we split the difference? Something between the Sandstone Bridge/Kabira Crossroads cycles from ZEN and BFZ and the Blighted cycle from BFZ? Sort of like this:
Exploited Meadow Land [Common]
When ~ enters the battlefield, target creature gets +1/+1 and gains vigilance until end of turn.
: Add to your mana pool. The farmers of the Mid-Lands did not take kindly to the Robber Barons' intrusion.
Obviously the actual ability could be something different but it gets the idea across.
Edit:
We could even have something as simple as this:
WCHybrid Land Land [Common]
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, scry 1. T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life. T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common) <- Combos with the previous three
Land
Card Name enters the battlefield tapped.
When Card Name enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. T: Add CC to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common) <- Salvage fodder
Land T: Add C to your mana pool. T, Sacrifice Card Name: Add CC to your mana pool.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know whether the "strictly better than a basic land"-rule applies to Wastes? I'd imagine it doesn't but has Wotc actually commented on it?
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know whether the "strictly better than a basic land"-rule applies to Wastes? I'd imagine it doesn't but has Wotc actually commented on it?
Are you asking if strictly better wastes are acceptable? Yes, they are. They printed 5 or 6 of them in the same set as Wastes...
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Karoo's might be too strong, they're pretty warping in both original Ravnica and MM2, but that's only based on the two color ones.
I do not think the karoo lands would be such a risk. The main thing that warped the environment was that there were 10 common lands that produced color fixing, meaning players aiming for 5-color good stuff could reliably expect to grab 6 during a draft. Also, since they were 2-colors, as soon as you were going 3 colors you could grab just about any of them, as 7 of them would be at the very least on par with a basic land of your color (compensating the fact they entered the battlefield tapped with a little utility) and the remaining 3 would make it all the more easier to splash your 4th and 5th color. This also happened in Khans of tarkir limited, with the 10 life gain lands, and Dragon's maze, with the gates. The combination of too many lands and easy color fixing is what warps the limited environment, not the utility the land gives (if gates without marginal abilities could make you go 5-color good stuff, utility is not the issue)
Karoo lands do not have either of these problems. We will have 5, which means that players interested in grabbing them will reliably see 3. They do not fix your mana, so unless strange circumstances, you will not go out of your way to grab one such land that is out of your colors. They also provide sone nice interaction with Refresher, Puller of hidden strings, and Twitch.tv (if we remove the non-land part). We could support the untap sub theme in UG in our uncommons and make the lands relevant for more archetypes than just Steam-power. Also, they fit perfectly in a steam-powered set, they play nicely and the value they provide is fun.
I agree completely with grim's points. The 2 color nature of the guildhalls was warping,not the bounces themselves. I say we try the Karoos since they allow for a riskier style of play.(less lands in your deck) Although if we do, we might want to give a way to some colors a way to punish that style of strategy (Something along the lines of Bramblecrush or Survey the wreckage)
As for the question about Salvage only hitting permanents, since we are using an ability word, should we play around with it? We could uniformize it to permanents or we could do cards that do anything, cards that care about spells and some that wants lands.
I agree completely with grim's points. The 2 color nature of the guildhalls was warping,not the bounces themselves. I say we try the Karoos since they allow for a riskier style of play.(less lands in your deck) Although if we do, we might want to give a way to some colors a way to punish that style of strategy (Something along the lines of Bramblecrush or Survey the wreckage)
We could potentially play up our land hosing enchantments and such. Spreading Seas on a Karoo feels real bad (in a good way?)
Alright I'm willing to give them a try.
EDIT: Actually I never realized that Karoo and co. only bounce their own land type. Is that something we want?
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
As for the question about Salvage only hitting permanents, since we are using an ability word, should we play around with it? We could uniformize it to permanents or we could do cards that do anything, cards that care about spells and some that wants lands.
If we're going down the Grim lavamancer route, I don't see why we shouldn't continue down that direction. Odyssey showed us that there is plenty of ore still in that particular mine and its relatively untapped.
Besides, if we start mixing the types of cards they can choose from in the graveyard, it'll add complexity. Both permanent and nonpermanent choices have complexity issues, however, when they are taken together, their issues dry up a bit by boiling them down to their common dominator, the fact that they're cards. That makes the "any two cards" version relatively simple and an ideal choice.
Edit: P.S. Love the Karoos idea, though the names might have some flavor implications. Also anytime I can see more Spreading Seas type cards printed makes me happy as a Fish player.
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I think that we could add some spice by having cards care about what you exile at higher rarities, but maybe keep things simple at common. Plus it seems unlikely that you'd be able to activate a Salvage ability multiple times if you had to use permanent cards only.
Personally I'm fine with redesigning the Karoo cycle to give them better names and make them less restrictive. The fact that the land has to be a specific type and untapped means they're a huge risk if land-death is actually going to be a thing.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Ya'll would rather go with Karoos than a loose cycle of our own making? Do you guys remember playing with them? I do. They aren't fun like the Rav lands.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, scry 1. T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life. T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common) <- Combos with the previous three
Land
Card Name enters the battlefield tapped.
When Card Name enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. T: Add CC to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common) <- Salvage fodder
Land T: Add C to your mana pool. T, Sacrifice Card Name: Add CC to your mana pool.
The problem with that wording is that you can create multiple regeneration shields for 1 enchant. (Could be circumvented with "Activate only once.")
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
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"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
I'm curious: where did you get the idea I was advocating a free cost? I just wrote [cost] as in"whatever cost is appropriate" because it was mostly irrelevant to my argument.
ETA: I just realized I forgot to write it with indestructible because a single regeneration shield still has the same issue pointed out originally (it saves the reature from the "on-the-stack death", but not form the one the activation is intended to save it from ^_^;;;). Obviously the intended result is obtained with "[cost]: enchanted creature gains indestructible UEOT, then sacrifice ~."
I'm a bigger fan of the Grim Lavamancer version of Trash than some of our earlier "Fuel" versions that used CMC (too complicated). However, how do we feel about making another ability word?
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Just to clarify my point, what I meant was that you could stack multiple cost before the first one could resolve (and not being able to sac doesn't fizzle the ability). But indestructibility doesn't stack anyway so whatever.
As for Trash,I am an advocate of Deathrite Lavamancer style for the effects.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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I'm not sure calling them "bad" is entirely appropriate or unbiased.
They certainly push steam-power hard but I disagree that that's a bad thing. One of the things I think we have a problem with now in the current set is the splashiblity of C, Oath has done that. We need to push somewhere else and the obvious direction is to have thing benefit from needing multiple colorless mana.
If we choose to go that direction, the original Lands would work really well. If we keep the current versions of several cards (such as Steam Strike) in the set, then we'll need to come up with a different cycle that doesn't produce such large amounts of colorless mana.
P.S. I for one welcome our new Lavamancer-style overlords.
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I'm totally on board. This is awesome. Does it have to permanents?
@Raptor: If I remember correctly I originally made these lands, so I'm ok with calling them bad
My issue is that they've got such a huge split between how useful they are. If you want Steam they're great and if not then you have zero incentive to play them. This isn't true of cards like Unknown Shores, Crumbling Vestige, Holdout Settlement, etc. because these cards are at least playable (not great) if you're not looking for C. I would never play one of our current lands in a non-SP deck, and that's kind of an issue because we do have some light steam splashing themes (every color has at least one single-C SP card.)
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Fertile Farmland
Land [Common]
~ enters the battlefield with two depletion counters on it.
, remove a depletion counter from ~: Add to your mana pool and gain 1 life.
: Add to your mana pool.
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(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
Karoo, Coral Atoll, Everglades, Dormant Volcano, Jungle Basin
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Depletion lands aren't bad but they do have an annoying side. Can't tell you how many games I've put a die on a vivid land and didn't touch it for the rest of the game.
Karoo's might be too strong, they're pretty warping in both original Ravnica and MM2, but that's only based on the two color ones.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I hearty agree on the Vivids. That's why I put the colorless generation on the normal tap ability, it encourages you to use colorless mana. Having said that, what if we split the difference? Something between the Sandstone Bridge/Kabira Crossroads cycles from ZEN and BFZ and the Blighted cycle from BFZ? Sort of like this:
Exploited Meadow
Land [Common]
When ~ enters the battlefield, target creature gets +1/+1 and gains vigilance until end of turn.
: Add to your mana pool.
The farmers of the Mid-Lands did not take kindly to the Robber Barons' intrusion.
Obviously the actual ability could be something different but it gets the idea across.
Edit:
We could even have something as simple as this:
WCHybrid Land
Land [Common]
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
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(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, scry 1.
T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life.
T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common)
Land
When Card Name enters the battlefield, target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
T: Add C to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common) <- Combos with the previous three
Land
Card Name enters the battlefield tapped.
When Card Name enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand.
T: Add CC to your mana pool.
Card Name (Common) <- Salvage fodder
Land
T: Add C to your mana pool.
T, Sacrifice Card Name: Add CC to your mana pool.
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Set Creation Projects: Archester: Frontier of Steam Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.
(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
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Karoo lands do not have either of these problems. We will have 5, which means that players interested in grabbing them will reliably see 3. They do not fix your mana, so unless strange circumstances, you will not go out of your way to grab one such land that is out of your colors. They also provide sone nice interaction with Refresher, Puller of hidden strings, and Twitch.tv (if we remove the non-land part). We could support the untap sub theme in UG in our uncommons and make the lands relevant for more archetypes than just Steam-power. Also, they fit perfectly in a steam-powered set, they play nicely and the value they provide is fun.
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network
As for the question about Salvage only hitting permanents, since we are using an ability word, should we play around with it? We could uniformize it to permanents or we could do cards that do anything, cards that care about spells and some that wants lands.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Alright I'm willing to give them a try.
EDIT: Actually I never realized that Karoo and co. only bounce their own land type. Is that something we want?
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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If we're going down the Grim lavamancer route, I don't see why we shouldn't continue down that direction. Odyssey showed us that there is plenty of ore still in that particular mine and its relatively untapped.
Besides, if we start mixing the types of cards they can choose from in the graveyard, it'll add complexity. Both permanent and nonpermanent choices have complexity issues, however, when they are taken together, their issues dry up a bit by boiling them down to their common dominator, the fact that they're cards. That makes the "any two cards" version relatively simple and an ideal choice.
Edit: P.S. Love the Karoos idea, though the names might have some flavor implications. Also anytime I can see more Spreading Seas type cards printed makes me happy as a Fish player.
Sig by Rivenor
Cube. The best way to play Magic. PERIOD. Come over and check it out. Also, check out my Peasant Split Card Cube.
The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out.
Set Creation Projects: Archester: Frontier of Steam Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.
(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
Personally I'm fine with redesigning the Karoo cycle to give them better names and make them less restrictive. The fact that the land has to be a specific type and untapped means they're a huge risk if land-death is actually going to be a thing.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Generating magic cards using deep, recurrent neural network