This is a custom user-generated set. For discussion of the actual Modern Masters 2017 Edition release, please visit the Rumor Mill. This thread has been locked and renamed to reduce confusion.
MODERN MASTERS 2017 "Because we can't trust Wizards to do it themselves!"
A community set, focusing on making the next "Modern Masters" draft environment.
Contributors
Phosphorus
DJK3654
.Rai
Metallix87
Piar
cccccc808
Design Guidelines
250 cards overall.
Limited print run, but less limited than either MMA or MM2.
Ten draft archetypes, one for each color pair.
Aiming for ~16 commons, eight uncommons, six rares and two mythics in each color.
Two uncommons and one rare in each guild, ideally 2/1 split on gold/hybrid.
Only sets from Eighth Edition through Magic 2014. (Innistrad block, Return to Ravnica block, Magic 2013 and Magic 2014 are the newcomers here.)
No dual-sided or split cards.
Banned cards can be included if we reasonably expect them to be unbanned by 2017.
Not every card can be worth $20! This is an exaggeration, of course, but there has to be a few Limited-focused rares or else the actual pricing on the packs would go through the roof.
Feel free to post whenever with ideas: this is a community set. Before we actually get to figuring out what cards go where, though, I think we have two big questions to answer concurrently.
Guidelines:
Why no DFC's or Split cards? For DFCs I guess the logistics could be troubling, but that's not an issue with split cards. Not that I think they should be done, but that I am not sure of your reasons. Everything else I agree with.
Archetypes:
Flash Control is a pretty limited archetype. What does that entail? My suggestion for is more of a tempo control strategy based around "saboteur" effects like with Prowl cards from Lorwyn, Ninjutsu cards from Kamigawa and Cipher from RTR, with the obvious rogue subtheme.
The could easily be extended into +1/+1 counter aggro with a vampire subtheme.
...Which conflicts with by space though, but I think this is better of changing than keeping as just vampires, the synergy is already worrying for a set that wants strong archetypes. could just be power matters, making use of Naya's theme primarily.
Morbid seems like a really good inclusion here, and it wants to be in , considering we have devour, undying and scavenge as well that can all fit to make more death matters rather than self mill.
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Nothing in particular comes to mind in terms of individual cards that in particular should be probably reprinted.
Guidelines:
Why no DFC's or Split cards? For DFCs I guess the logistics could be troubling, but that's not an issue with split cards. Not that I think they should be done, but that I am not sure of your reasons. Everything else I agree with.
Mainly 'cuz I have no clue how split cards'd look with the new border. I'm fine with using split cards, but it'd have to count as a separate mechanic - if we use fuse, that's another mechanic in of itself.
Archetypes:
Flash Control is a pretty limited archetype. What does that entail? My suggestion for is more of a tempo control strategy based around "saboteur" effects like with Prowl cards from Lorwyn, Ninjutsu cards from Kamigawa and Cipher from RTR, with the obvious rogue subtheme.
Your description better captures my idea for Dimir. I particularly like the rogue tribal subtheme: it could be a lot of fun. I'm down for that. (:
The could easily be extended into +1/+1 counter aggro with a vampire subtheme.
...Which conflicts with by space though, but I think this is better of changing than keeping as just vampires, the synergy is already worrying for a set that wants strong archetypes. could just be power matters, making use of Naya's theme primarily.
Morbid seems like a really good inclusion here, and it wants to be in , considering we have devour, undying and scavenge as well that can all fit to make more death matters rather than self mill.
I don't want to make BR the bloodthirst guild because that was how MM2 did it, and repeating the same archetype in back-to-back MMs seems... uninspired. I'd rather keep RG the bloodthirst/+1/+1 guild, if only because I think Ion Storm could be a really fun "draft-around-me" card. I did had another idea for BR being the "sacrifice matters" guild, which would mean we could keep dredge in BG and have morbid intersect them. Does that sound cool?
These all look pretty good. I'd personally cut overload, cascade and maybe replicate (although Shattering Spree begs to be reprinted), exchange the black half of bloodthirst for green and stick evolve in green as well. Entwine's a nice catch: it could be fun with Tooth and Nail as a big ramp target.
Keep the ideas flowing! (:
Thes
Private Mod Note
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
The card is in the same place Bitterblossom was in 3 years ago. (Correctly) banned due to having been hyper-oppressive in Extended and Standard. Noone has done extensive testing on whether or not it is safe to unban, just as was the case with BB in 2012.
However:
- Even if JtMS isn't unbanned, noone will complain if they open him in a booster. (Well, someone will...)
- Like BB, there's a fair chance of him being unbanned one day but there are serious supply issues with the card. He's not a 'this can never ever ever been unbanned' card like Skullclamp or Hypergenesis.
On a Limited note - I think Batallion should be the WR mechanic, and that can use Human synergies. Rarity downshifts (Firemane Avenger to uncommon) to make it work.
I think DFCs are worth considering. Magic Origins tells us that R&D is willing to do DFCs without needing a booster slot dedicated to them, and DFCs are a key part of Innistrad's uniqueness and style. Cards like Delver of Secrets and Huntmaster of the Fells are also pretty playable in modern, especially Delver. It's not something that I think has to be done, but I do think throwing it out so quickly is a mistake when there's plenty of reason not to.
The argument for counters makes sense, and the solution to and relations is good as well, I think it's a goog starting point at the very least.
Overload certainly isn't necessary. Cascade is good because it can spill over into three/four/five colour space so it doesn't take up as much room otherwise and has a few cards like Bituminous Blast, Shardless Agent and Bloodbraid Elf that are very playable. Is there really enough cards with Evolve in green alone to be worth it? If it's in blue as well it conflicts with the archetype, so that doesn't seem like a good idea. Tooth and Nail is exactly the reason why I thought of it and one of the better reasons to throw it in. To be honest though, there's not very many good cards with it in though, but that's not necessarily a problem.
@Metallix87.
Heavy graveyard theme is probably too much, pushing a graveyard theme, sure, but this isn't a theme based set. First and foremost, MM is about catering to experienced players, through reprinting powerful and sought after cards, and through relieving some of their favourite draft moments moulded together. Pushing a theme too hard detracts from that, and it sounds like you are suggesting that.
The mechanics suggested are fine, except soulshift is a bit trying for space seeing as it's already had a spot and delve has three cards TOTAL available, one of which is not worth printing here (Death Rattle is obsoleted by Murderous Cut which is unavailable), so that's just not happening.
On archetypes, as mentioned before, you are pushing Innistrad quite hard, too hard IMO.
@Rai.
UB zombies is a possibility, it would require moulding some mechanics to suit, pretty much supporting graveyard theme. BR Goblins could also be done, but it does miss out on the vampire theme, which is something that helps highlight Innistrad's inclusion. Surely Anowon, the Ruin Sage, Bloodlord of Vaasgoth, Kalastria Highborn, Lord of Lineage, Rakish Heir, Vampire Nocturnus and Captivating Vampire is enough cards to choose from to have good support, especially with some rarity shifts?
Hmmm, I've warmed up more to zombies, particularly because there are a lot of money cards that are zombie tribal (Death Baron and Lord of the Undead, I'm looking at you) and the graveyard theme can flow over into BG. I still think vampires could work, though:
Those are all cards that imply a vampire tribal theme, but I'm sure we don't need to include all of them in order to have a working tribe. Plus, I agree with DJK in that vampires are "iconic" of Innistrad, and Rakdos goblins were already done in a previous Modern Masters run to boot. They also synergize well with what we have planned for Gruul.
Also, we should start considering mythics. Assuming we have two for each monocolor and five "randoms," I propose the following. Any suggestions to fill those five other slots?
I slipped this into a post on the thread that inspired this project, but I want to repost it because I think it's a super useful tool. http://mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=modern is a great tool to see what cards should be included for the sake of EV. For example, it suggests that Avacyn, Angel of Hope would be an important white mythic inclusion as she's worth $36 currently. I'm super interested in this project and I'll be contributing as much as I can (without stepping on toes hopefully!)
@Metallix87.
Heavy graveyard theme is probably too much, pushing a graveyard theme, sure, but this isn't a theme based set. First and foremost, MM is about catering to experienced players, through reprinting powerful and sought after cards, and through relieving some of their favourite draft moments moulded together. Pushing a theme too hard detracts from that, and it sounds like you are suggesting that.
The mechanics suggested are fine, except soulshift is a bit trying for space seeing as it's already had a spot and delve has three cards TOTAL available, one of which is not worth printing here (Death Rattle is obsoleted by Murderous Cut which is unavailable), so that's just not happening.
On archetypes, as mentioned before, you are pushing Innistrad quite hard, too hard IMO.
It is, but I think my reasoning is sound on this. Innistrad is one of, if not the, most popular Limited format of all time. It makes a lot of sense to have a major throwback to it, albeit with a great mix of cards from across multiple sets. I think, when the real Modern Masters 2017 comes around, you'll see Wizards emphasize it in a big way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if RTR block is saved for the following Modern Masters set and lumped with Theros. Innistrad is that important.
As for Death Rattle, sure, Cut is strictly better, but that hasn't stopped Wizards in the past, and Rattle is still a fine removal spell for Limited, and the name definitely sounds good in an Innistrad-heavy set.
Not too big a fan of miracles myself: they all seem really swingy in limited and could lead to a lot of feel-bad moments. I'm trying to stay away from the mechanic as a result. :/
They imply a Vampire tribal theme, but unless you have common support, the Vampire archetype is hugely out of balance with the rest of the set. It's especially true for Vampires as a tribe, because so many of their support cards don't actually encourage drafting Vampires. Cards like Urge to Feed and Bloodline Keeper are just cards that everyone will pick up, regardless of theme. Even Blade of the Bloodchief is a huge bomb in the BG archetype, rather than BR. Of the list, Captivating Vampire and Vampire Nocturnus are a bit too Poison Principle-y. I think the other problem with Vampires is that the number of legitimately good cards compared to past MM tribes like Elementals or Goblins is low, so the need for strong support is even higher than usual, and it lacks it quite heavily.
Okay, I agree with you there. In that case, if we don't want to aim for another tribal deck (I'm still not a big fan of goblins, and now we have UB zombies and RW humans), maybe do BR "steal and sac?" Put in some Threaten effects, a few strong sac outlets and death triggers, and watch your opponents cry? My only fear is that we won't have enough aggro focused guilds if we do this, but eh, it's worth a shot. If not, goblins are fine by me.
These are all reasonable choices. I feel like we could include something other than Kiki (maybe Thundermaw Hellkite?), but other than that it all looks good. (y)
I've also been looking into the 10 multicolor rares and the options we have. Here's a partial list I came up with: any thoughts?
Azorius:Geist of Saint Traft (something's telling me this is a bad idea to put him at rare) Dimir:Lich Lord of Unx (both strong support and finisher for zombies, and commands a hefty price point atm) Rakdos:Fulminator Mage (still could use a reprint at ~$30) Gruul:Savageborn Hydra (works well on theme and isn't a terribly oppressive mythic to downgrade) Selesnya: ??? Orzhov: ??? Golgari:Abrupt Decay (second-most expensive card in RTR block at the moment) Simic:Simic Sky Swallower (good ramp target, but not much of a money card) Izzet: ??? Boros:Waves of Aggression (fuels the aggro focus for Boros and keeps coming back to boot!)
RB sacrifice is interesting, but steps on the toes of GB a little too much for my liking. Encouraging cross-synergy is super important, but I feel like this means you've essentially enabled a pure Jund archetype rather than two distinct colour pairs. I'm still for Goblins myself (and I think you can implement it differently to how it was in MM1: MM1's goblin archetype felt quite midrangey; my vision is basically suicide aggro), but I'm cool with passing round ideas for that colour pair for a while to see what else there is.
Goblin suicide aggro is fine by me: I was concerned that it was going to be yet another midrange strategy, as mentioned above.
Thundermaw instead of Kiki-Jiki would be fine if you want to not have every mythic be ludicrously expensive (especially since Liliana's in the set). Still fairly playable card, and makes a change from the other two MM sets. I also think Geist of Saint Traft should be one of the rando-mythics, rather than a rare. For the rare list, I pretty much agree with everything suggested with changes to Azorius, Selesnya and Orzhov.
Meddling Mage and Gavony Township are fine, but not too sure about the others. Divinity of Pride has been reprinted a lot, and I feel like either Serra Ascendant or even Blood Baron of Vizkopa (if we're feeling frisky) would fill its role better. Counterflux requires we include overload as a mechanic. I feel like maybe Stitch in Time would be a fun replacement: it's got casual appeal and is a bit more rewarding in terms of EV (sitting at ~$2.75 atm). Unsure about the Orzhov rare, though. Thoughts on that?
@Piar: Yes. Agreed. Omniscience at rare. Troll all the non-Simic drafters. (:
@Jetvans: My only qualms with Simic being infect is that it’s an "all or nothing” approach: if you try drafting it but only get four creatures with infect, they’re gonna be useless in any other deck. Selesnya landfall is also a cool idea, but I think it treads too much on the toes of what we have going for Simic landfall/ramp right now. Your description of Dimir is very much in line with what I initially envisioned, though, so I’m still up for doing that. As for the rares you suggested, Debtor's Knell seems really promising. That could go in instead of Divinity of Pride?
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
I like Debtor's Knell, but could see Divinity of Pride working too. It does fit the lifegain thing better. Blood Baron of Vizkopa would be interesting as well. I still like Epic Experiment at rare for Izzet, but am not sure about Omniscience. By the time you have 10 mana you will already be able to cast everything in your deck unless we're including Eldrazi in this set. How about Genesis Wave instead for Simic? However, if the main purpose is just because Omniscience needs a reprint, then that makes sense.
I think UG ramp / landfall could work. It reminded me a lot of the Simic strategy in MM1 at first, but that one focused more on domain/sunburst. Infect could be intriguing with Proliferate / against +1/+1 counters, sort of in the place that Wither is in MM2 but it's true that it may not be cohesive or deep enough for an entire color combination's strategy. If we do go the UG ramp route, I think it'd be nice to focus it on Landfall if possible. Could include the Soratami for their unique synergies here: Soratami Cloudskater at common, Uyo, Silent Prophet or Meloku the Clouded Mirror at rare. I could still see Lotus Cobra getting a reprint at rare here, with Khalni Heart Expedition, Hedron Crab, and Grazing Gladehart being good commons. Bloodghast could come back as a rare if we include Landfall, although it would be nice if it could be downshifted to uncommon since I don't think it'd be too busted and would be nice in self-mill.
Omniscience was mainly included due to the "lulz" factor, but I agree that at 10 mana you should probably be winning anyways. I can easily switch it out for something else.
Epic Experiment could be a fun inclusion for the Izzet rare: I must've overlooked that suggestion.
Re: the Orzhov rare - I don't know how oppressive Blood Baron of Vizkopa at rare instead of mythic would be. Divinity of Pride just may end up taking that slot back, but I feel like Serra Ascendant already covers it in a way. I'd rather cut Ascendant and put in some other white rare, though.
Yeah, GU is a combo of ramp and landfall. The soratami are an interesting addition that I honestly hadn't considered. I like all of the suggested inclusions - one of Uyo or Meloku (I like Meloku more) could fill in the rare slots, but I'm not too sure about Lotus Cobra yet.
Stony Silence can easily come out for Restoration Angel. Stony Silence just felt like a card that could use reprinting, but the Angel definitely synergizes better with the other archetypes currently laid out. Champion of the Parish could also go in.
EDIT: For the now-remaining blue rare, does something like Venser, Shaper Savant sound like it could work?
I'd much rather see Champion of the Parish shifted to uncommon than Restoration Angel.
Besides needing a reprint, the reason I think Omniscience is worthwhile in ramp: Ramp normally has to spend several turns after it's done ramping to untap and play its threats/stabilizers, but with Omniscience they can all come down at once if you manage to jump all the way to 10.
If we're doing landfall, does that mean our rare lands should be fetches? If we want to use that space for something else, we could try Bant Panorama and friends in a lower rarity slot I guess.
One thing which I think might be nice for this set at common would be a 10 card cycle of hybrid cards in each color-pair. We could use gold cards as well, but I think those are less open-ended and force people into particular archetypes much more. The idea would be just to increase the gold as-fan for this set in an homage to RTR block's inclusion. We could also probably include a cycle of / some amount of off-color Flashback cards like Desperate Ravings, Momentary Blink, etc.
Oooh, I like this idea, though I disagree with Rai in that we should try to keep the common hybrid. That way, you have more flexibility in using your commons, and won't be forced to try to draft 3-color. An example:
Also, having Damnation at rare is too expensive a rare, I think. It has to be mythic. I'd rather have Damnation than have Bob in for the 3rd time as a mythic.
Snapcaster Mage is more expensive than Damnation ($55 vs. $47) and I don't see you complaining 'bout that.
I'd much rather see Champion of the Parish shifted to uncommon than Restoration Angel.
Besides needing a reprint, the reason I think Omniscience is worthwhile in ramp: Ramp normally has to spend several turns after it's done ramping to untap and play its threats/stabilizers, but with Omniscience they can all come down at once if you manage to jump all the way to 10.
If we're doing landfall, does that mean our rare lands should be fetches? If we want to use that space for something else, we could try Bant Panorama and friends in a lower rarity slot I guess.
Third the recommendation for Champion of the Parish being downshifted, and I see your points on Omniscience. Don't agree with including fetches, though. I think we could have the Alara panoramas at common and a full cycle of signets (ex. Golgari Signet) at uncommon, plus 1-2 things at rare for our fixing. Thoughts on that?
Private Mod Note
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
Keeping the commons hybrid is fine, especially since I think there's less space to put any fixing, but I think you'll get the feel that some of the slots are forced for the sake of having a hybrid. I'm more happy with Damnation as a mythic than Snapcaster, since Snapcaster was printed in a post-mythic set as a rare, and Damnation in a pre-mythic set as a rare. The other difference is that having Cryptic Command, Snapcaster and Damnation at rare is already much more value than either MM1 or MM2.
If you have ten slots for hybrids, and then six slots for colourless as per norm (set size should be the more standard 249, by the way), that gives us 17 commons for each colour. So, there's definitely no space for the Panoramas which would encourage the wrong archetypes anyway, but other fixing is good. I don't know about the hybrids yet, but my picks for the colourless commons would be:
I see your point re: Damnation. Are other people onboard with booting out Dark Confidant and moving Damnation up a rarity? If we do that, though, we should try to slot in another board wipe or mass damage spell: right now the only one I have plotted out is Austere Command.
And the common hybrids didn't prove to be that much of a challenge. I pulled together a sample list below: the only one that was a bit of a stretch was Riot Spikes, but not every card can be amazing.
Re: the artifacts, all of those common colorless cards look good. I like Golden Urn more than Explorer's Scope, as we have Hedron Rover there to support landfall.
I don't think that's a very good tag line. This project should be about creativity, not sticking it to Wizards, not to mention it sounds conceited. And I'm uncomfortable with calling the set by a name that sounds official; can't we choose something that indicates this is a fanmade set? I would rather not risk any kind of legal consequences.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
You say that Riot Spikes is the only stretch there, I think Elvish Hexhunter, Beckon Apparition, Grazing Kelpie and Boros Recruit are all stretches. I generally don't mind the list; I'd make a few changes though.
Somnomancer doesn't actually contribute to any themes strongly (i.e. it's not a huge incentive that you can blink Somnomancer). Even though it's not the UW theme, Steel of the Godhead contributing to both the lifegain and Aura themes is a huge plus in my opinion. The RB aggro deck wants creatures, rather than random Auras. And I think Snakeform is actually perfectly playable in the UR spellslinger deck, just as Crippling Chill was playable in Khans.
Edit: Does this mean no space for Coiling Oracle? I think the ramp archetype is only truly serviceable with both Coiling Oracle and Urban Evolution but the need for an uncommon hybrid bumps one out.
...huh, I completely overlooked Snakeform and Rakdos Shred-Freak when scrolling through Gatherer. Much better options. Adding those instead.
As for Steel of the Godhead, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that entire cycle of Auras super oppressive to play against in Shadowmoor/Eventide limited? I guess it'd be mitigated by the fact that we don't have nearly as many multicolored creatures as that block did, but just a bit of a concern. We can certainly add it and give it a whirl, though.
Re: Coiling Oracle: I guess? I mean, if we have all the signets going in at uncommon, that should be enough 2 CMC ramp to offset the fact that Oracle wouldn't be in there. We could also throw in Cultivate or Explore or something like that to offset. I agree that Urban Evolution should go in, though.
Private Mod Note
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
I think those Auras were quite strong in Shadowmoor/Eventide, but I didn't play the block, so someone with experience would have to correct me. In this set though, I think it's fairly average.
There's definitely plenty of ways to offset a lack of Coiling Oracle, but I do worry that without proper support, the UG archetype quickly becomes mono-green. Probably overly concerned, but I thought it's worth keeping in mind. On that note though, I'd quickly give Silkwing Scout a shout.
We could 25/75 instead of 50/50 for hybrid/gold in Simic if we feel it’s a big enough concern, by dropping Slippery Bogle for Coiling Oracle and putting in Gladecover Scout to cover a similar role. I’d personally like to go the other way for Rakdos too (make it 75/25 hybrid to gold), because Murderous Redcap seems too perfect for the goblin deck.
MODERN MASTERS 2017
"Because we can't trust Wizards to do it themselves!"
Contributors
UB: Zombie tribal
BR: ??? (Goblin tribal? Vampire tribal? Artifacts?)
RG: “+1/+1 counters matter”
GW: Auras
WB: Extort
BG: Self-mill/graveyard abuse
GU: Ramp/landfall
UR: Flashback spellslinger
RW: Human tribal
Guidelines:
Why no DFC's or Split cards? For DFCs I guess the logistics could be troubling, but that's not an issue with split cards. Not that I think they should be done, but that I am not sure of your reasons. Everything else I agree with.
Archetypes:
Flash Control is a pretty limited archetype. What does that entail? My suggestion for is more of a tempo control strategy based around "saboteur" effects like with Prowl cards from Lorwyn, Ninjutsu cards from Kamigawa and Cipher from RTR, with the obvious rogue subtheme.
The could easily be extended into +1/+1 counter aggro with a vampire subtheme.
...Which conflicts with by space though, but I think this is better of changing than keeping as just vampires, the synergy is already worrying for a set that wants strong archetypes. could just be power matters, making use of Naya's theme primarily.
Morbid seems like a really good inclusion here, and it wants to be in , considering we have devour, undying and scavenge as well that can all fit to make more death matters rather than self mill.
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Nothing in particular comes to mind in terms of individual cards that in particular should be probably reprinted.
Mechanics Lineup and Associated Colours Suggestion:
Mirrodin (1): Scry ( ?), Entwine? ( to help the ramp deck)
Kamigawa: Bushido ( ), Ninjutsu (aforementioned )
Ravnica (1): Bloodthirst (red cards from here, black from M12), Replicate ( )
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor: Prowl ( ), Retrace ( )
Alara: Devour ( ), Naya theme, Cascade? ( )
Zendikar: Rebound ( ), Totem Armour ( )
Mirrodin (2): Battle cry ( )
Innistrad: Morbid and Undying ( ), Flashback ( )
Ravnica (2): Scavenge, Overload, Cipher - (all obvious)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Mainly 'cuz I have no clue how split cards'd look with the new border. I'm fine with using split cards, but it'd have to count as a separate mechanic - if we use fuse, that's another mechanic in of itself.
Your description better captures my idea for Dimir. I particularly like the rogue tribal subtheme: it could be a lot of fun. I'm down for that. (:
I don't want to make BR the bloodthirst guild because that was how MM2 did it, and repeating the same archetype in back-to-back MMs seems... uninspired. I'd rather keep RG the bloodthirst/+1/+1 guild, if only because I think Ion Storm could be a really fun "draft-around-me" card. I did had another idea for BR being the "sacrifice matters" guild, which would mean we could keep dredge in BG and have morbid intersect them. Does that sound cool?
These all look pretty good. I'd personally cut overload, cascade and maybe replicate (although Shattering Spree begs to be reprinted), exchange the black half of bloodthirst for green and stick evolve in green as well. Entwine's a nice catch: it could be fun with Tooth and Nail as a big ramp target.
Keep the ideas flowing! (:
Thes
Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
The card is in the same place Bitterblossom was in 3 years ago. (Correctly) banned due to having been hyper-oppressive in Extended and Standard. Noone has done extensive testing on whether or not it is safe to unban, just as was the case with BB in 2012.
However:
- Even if JtMS isn't unbanned, noone will complain if they open him in a booster. (Well, someone will...)
- Like BB, there's a fair chance of him being unbanned one day but there are serious supply issues with the card. He's not a 'this can never ever ever been unbanned' card like Skullclamp or Hypergenesis.
On a Limited note - I think Batallion should be the WR mechanic, and that can use Human synergies. Rarity downshifts (Firemane Avenger to uncommon) to make it work.
The argument for counters makes sense, and the solution to and relations is good as well, I think it's a goog starting point at the very least.
Overload certainly isn't necessary. Cascade is good because it can spill over into three/four/five colour space so it doesn't take up as much room otherwise and has a few cards like Bituminous Blast, Shardless Agent and Bloodbraid Elf that are very playable. Is there really enough cards with Evolve in green alone to be worth it? If it's in blue as well it conflicts with the archetype, so that doesn't seem like a good idea.
Tooth and Nail is exactly the reason why I thought of it and one of the better reasons to throw it in. To be honest though, there's not very many good cards with it in though, but that's not necessarily a problem.
Also, landfall fits into the ramp perfectly.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I think, given it's the Modern Masters that will introduce Innistrad, the set as a whole should have a HEAVY graveyard theme.
Some cards that I think could be interesting for Limited, that would fit well with Innistrad's cards, flavor, and mechanics:
- Unstable Mutation
- Visions of Beyond
- Call of the Herd
- Mystic Enforcer
- Resurrection
- Dralnu, Lich Lord
- Conflagrate
- Strangling Soot
- Shrouded Lore
- Bloodlord of Vaasgoth
- Sutured Ghoul
- Zombie Infestation
- Marrow Chomper
- Fallen Angel
- Belltower Sphinx
Mechanics: Flashback, Threshold, Bloodthirst, Delve, Soulshift, Undying, Devour
Draft strategies:
BR Vampires Bloodthirst and Innistrad meet here. Vampire Interloper, Bloodcrazed Neonate, Bloodrage Vampire
BG Tokens Spider Spawning, Zombie Infestation, etc. Marrow Chomper at Uncommon helps a ton.
RG Bloodthirst Aggro Carnage Wurm and Furyborn Hellkite top the curve, the latter now at rare.
UB Zombies Self explanatory.
UW Spirits Also self explanatory, with the bonus of Soulshift from Kamigawa to help.
GW Auras Now that it's been mentioned, making Daybreak Coronet playable in Limited rocks. Can Angelic Destiny be bumped down to rare?
GU Self-Mill Splinterfright, Ghoultree, Mulch, Armored Skaab, and cards like Boneyard Wurm.
UR Spellsplinger Charmbreaker Devils at rare, Kiln Fiend and Wee Dragonauts.
WB Reanimator Resurrection, Unburial Rites, etc.
RW Battle cry weenies A few token making cards, plus most of the battle cry cards, and plenty of weenies.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Heavy graveyard theme is probably too much, pushing a graveyard theme, sure, but this isn't a theme based set. First and foremost, MM is about catering to experienced players, through reprinting powerful and sought after cards, and through relieving some of their favourite draft moments moulded together. Pushing a theme too hard detracts from that, and it sounds like you are suggesting that.
The mechanics suggested are fine, except soulshift is a bit trying for space seeing as it's already had a spot and delve has three cards TOTAL available, one of which is not worth printing here (Death Rattle is obsoleted by Murderous Cut which is unavailable), so that's just not happening.
On archetypes, as mentioned before, you are pushing Innistrad quite hard, too hard IMO.
@Rai.
UB zombies is a possibility, it would require moulding some mechanics to suit, pretty much supporting graveyard theme. BR Goblins could also be done, but it does miss out on the vampire theme, which is something that helps highlight Innistrad's inclusion. Surely Anowon, the Ruin Sage, Bloodlord of Vaasgoth, Kalastria Highborn, Lord of Lineage, Rakish Heir, Vampire Nocturnus and Captivating Vampire is enough cards to choose from to have good support, especially with some rarity shifts?
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Stony Silence, Olivia Voldaren, Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize/Gitaxian Probe, Blood Baron of Vizkopa (vampires + lifegain), Ranger of Eos, Archangel of Thune (lifegain), Soul's Attendant/Soul Warden (obvious choices to support lifegain), Summer Bloom (rising star with landfall support within set), Expedition Map (classic landfall support), Remand, Geist of Saint Traft, Restoration Angel, Thundermaw Hellkite, Batterskull, Cursecatcher, Phantasmal Image, Vapor Snag, Boros Charm, Sin Collector, Vengevine, Bloodghast, Think Twice, Sphinx's Revelation, Manamorphose, Goblin Electromancer.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Blade of the Bloodchief (at uncommon?)
Bloodline Keeper (double-sided)
Captivating Vampire
Kalastria Highborn (at uncommon?)
Malakir Bloodwitch
Mephidross Vampire
Olivia Voldaren
Rakish Heir
Stromkirk Captain
Urge to Feed
Vampire Nocturnus
Those are all cards that imply a vampire tribal theme, but I'm sure we don't need to include all of them in order to have a working tribe. Plus, I agree with DJK in that vampires are "iconic" of Innistrad, and Rakdos goblins were already done in a previous Modern Masters run to boot. They also synergize well with what we have planned for Gruul.
Also, we should start considering mythics. Assuming we have two for each monocolor and five "randoms," I propose the following. Any suggestions to fill those five other slots?
White: ???, ???
Blue: Vendilion Clique, ???
Black: Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil
Red: ???, ???
Green: Tarmogoyf, Vengevine
As for archetypes, U/x miracles could be cool
Devastation Tide, Vanishment, Terminus, Banishing Stroke, Thunderous Wrath, Think Twice, Quicken at uncommon, Angelsong, Desperate Ravings, Thought Scour.
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
It is, but I think my reasoning is sound on this. Innistrad is one of, if not the, most popular Limited format of all time. It makes a lot of sense to have a major throwback to it, albeit with a great mix of cards from across multiple sets. I think, when the real Modern Masters 2017 comes around, you'll see Wizards emphasize it in a big way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if RTR block is saved for the following Modern Masters set and lumped with Theros. Innistrad is that important.
As for Death Rattle, sure, Cut is strictly better, but that hasn't stopped Wizards in the past, and Rattle is still a fine removal spell for Limited, and the name definitely sounds good in an Innistrad-heavy set.
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Not too big a fan of miracles myself: they all seem really swingy in limited and could lead to a lot of feel-bad moments. I'm trying to stay away from the mechanic as a result. :/
Okay, I agree with you there. In that case, if we don't want to aim for another tribal deck (I'm still not a big fan of goblins, and now we have UB zombies and RW humans), maybe do BR "steal and sac?" Put in some Threaten effects, a few strong sac outlets and death triggers, and watch your opponents cry? My only fear is that we won't have enough aggro focused guilds if we do this, but eh, it's worth a shot. If not, goblins are fine by me.
These are all reasonable choices. I feel like we could include something other than Kiki (maybe Thundermaw Hellkite?), but other than that it all looks good. (y)
I've also been looking into the 10 multicolor rares and the options we have. Here's a partial list I came up with: any thoughts?
Azorius: Geist of Saint Traft (something's telling me this is a bad idea to put him at rare)
Dimir: Lich Lord of Unx (both strong support and finisher for zombies, and commands a hefty price point atm)
Rakdos: Fulminator Mage (still could use a reprint at ~$30)
Gruul: Savageborn Hydra (works well on theme and isn't a terribly oppressive mythic to downgrade)
Selesnya: ???
Orzhov: ???
Golgari: Abrupt Decay (second-most expensive card in RTR block at the moment)
Simic: Simic Sky Swallower (good ramp target, but not much of a money card)
Izzet: ???
Boros: Waves of Aggression (fuels the aggro focus for Boros and keeps coming back to boot!)
Voice of Resurgence
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Counterflux
Also Omniscience is a pretty juicy topend for Ramp.
Goblin suicide aggro is fine by me: I was concerned that it was going to be yet another midrange strategy, as mentioned above.
Meddling Mage and Gavony Township are fine, but not too sure about the others. Divinity of Pride has been reprinted a lot, and I feel like either Serra Ascendant or even Blood Baron of Vizkopa (if we're feeling frisky) would fill its role better. Counterflux requires we include overload as a mechanic. I feel like maybe Stitch in Time would be a fun replacement: it's got casual appeal and is a bit more rewarding in terms of EV (sitting at ~$2.75 atm). Unsure about the Orzhov rare, though. Thoughts on that?
@Piar: Yes. Agreed. Omniscience at rare. Troll all the non-Simic drafters. (:
@Jetvans: My only qualms with Simic being infect is that it’s an "all or nothing” approach: if you try drafting it but only get four creatures with infect, they’re gonna be useless in any other deck. Selesnya landfall is also a cool idea, but I think it treads too much on the toes of what we have going for Simic landfall/ramp right now. Your description of Dimir is very much in line with what I initially envisioned, though, so I’m still up for doing that. As for the rares you suggested, Debtor's Knell seems really promising. That could go in instead of Divinity of Pride?
thanks to DNC of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the coolest sig
vintage-WBdark timesBW
legacy-BGRJund-51/60BGR
RBBob Sligh 48/60BR
GRone land belcherRG
URBTES-54/60URB
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Not quite sure I follow you, mate.
On that note, I got thinking about the monocolor rares. Here's my partial list, assuming that there are 6 of each color. Thoughts?
All very good points. (:
Charmbreaker Devils should be in there: it was one I forgot. Edited.
Omniscience was mainly included due to the "lulz" factor, but I agree that at 10 mana you should probably be winning anyways. I can easily switch it out for something else.
Epic Experiment could be a fun inclusion for the Izzet rare: I must've overlooked that suggestion.
Re: the Orzhov rare - I don't know how oppressive Blood Baron of Vizkopa at rare instead of mythic would be. Divinity of Pride just may end up taking that slot back, but I feel like Serra Ascendant already covers it in a way. I'd rather cut Ascendant and put in some other white rare, though.
Yeah, GU is a combo of ramp and landfall. The soratami are an interesting addition that I honestly hadn't considered. I like all of the suggested inclusions - one of Uyo or Meloku (I like Meloku more) could fill in the rare slots, but I'm not too sure about Lotus Cobra yet.
Stony Silence can easily come out for Restoration Angel. Stony Silence just felt like a card that could use reprinting, but the Angel definitely synergizes better with the other archetypes currently laid out. Champion of the Parish could also go in.
EDIT: For the now-remaining blue rare, does something like Venser, Shaper Savant sound like it could work?
Besides needing a reprint, the reason I think Omniscience is worthwhile in ramp: Ramp normally has to spend several turns after it's done ramping to untap and play its threats/stabilizers, but with Omniscience they can all come down at once if you manage to jump all the way to 10.
If we're doing landfall, does that mean our rare lands should be fetches? If we want to use that space for something else, we could try Bant Panorama and friends in a lower rarity slot I guess.
Oooh, I like this idea, though I disagree with Rai in that we should try to keep the common hybrid. That way, you have more flexibility in using your commons, and won't be forced to try to draft 3-color. An example:
Snapcaster Mage is more expensive than Damnation ($55 vs. $47) and I don't see you complaining 'bout that.
Third the recommendation for Champion of the Parish being downshifted, and I see your points on Omniscience. Don't agree with including fetches, though. I think we could have the Alara panoramas at common and a full cycle of signets (ex. Golgari Signet) at uncommon, plus 1-2 things at rare for our fixing. Thoughts on that?
I see your point re: Damnation. Are other people onboard with booting out Dark Confidant and moving Damnation up a rarity? If we do that, though, we should try to slot in another board wipe or mass damage spell: right now the only one I have plotted out is Austere Command.
And the common hybrids didn't prove to be that much of a challenge. I pulled together a sample list below: the only one that was a bit of a stretch was Riot Spikes, but not every card can be amazing.
Azorius: Somnomancer
Dimir: Deathcult Rogue (From what I've been fiddling with, there may be a hidden "11th archetype" with prowl and rogues.)
Rakdos: Riot Spikes
Gruul: Pit Fight
Selesnya: Elvish Hexhunter
Orzhov: Beckon Apparition
Golgari: Slitherhead
Simic: Grazing Kelpie (Serves as graveyard hate, which seems like it may be needed.)
Izzet: Blistercoil Weird
Boros: Boros Recruit
Re: the artifacts, all of those common colorless cards look good. I like Golden Urn more than Explorer's Scope, as we have Hedron Rover there to support landfall.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
...huh, I completely overlooked Snakeform and Rakdos Shred-Freak when scrolling through Gatherer. Much better options. Adding those instead.
As for Steel of the Godhead, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that entire cycle of Auras super oppressive to play against in Shadowmoor/Eventide limited? I guess it'd be mitigated by the fact that we don't have nearly as many multicolored creatures as that block did, but just a bit of a concern. We can certainly add it and give it a whirl, though.
Re: Coiling Oracle: I guess? I mean, if we have all the signets going in at uncommon, that should be enough 2 CMC ramp to offset the fact that Oracle wouldn't be in there. We could also throw in Cultivate or Explore or something like that to offset. I agree that Urban Evolution should go in, though.
We could 25/75 instead of 50/50 for hybrid/gold in Simic if we feel it’s a big enough concern, by dropping Slippery Bogle for Coiling Oracle and putting in Gladecover Scout to cover a similar role. I’d personally like to go the other way for Rakdos too (make it 75/25 hybrid to gold), because Murderous Redcap seems too perfect for the goblin deck.
And damnit, now I wish Embodiment of Spring had come along earlier.