I really like most of what's going on here. I don't know much about norse mythology, and I don't think Wizards would print a top-down set about norse mythology, but they care about mass appeal and we don't, so I think it's a great theme. I love the terminology and tropes it allows. Unfortunately this set looks a little too similar to Theros, but that's something you are already aware of and are working on so that's good.
I really like Honorable. I would love for the mechanic to be worded: "Whenever this creature dies in combat, effect". It's very easy to grok and understand that way, and it functions the same. The terminology is slightly loose and might bother some people, but functionally it works fine.
I agree that scry helps this set be too similar to Theros. I think a mechanic playing with the top card of the library could be cool.
I don't like Overwhelm because it rewards the player that is already winning far too much. It's also another mechanic that rewards aggressive play. Some players, like myself, enjoy blocking and going long (control) in limited, and I wouldn't like to play a set full of aggressive mechanics. Maybe try a threshold ability that checks the creature with the highest power on the battlefield.
You do need gods, and you definitely don't need to make them enchantment creatures. If you don't have a mechanical identity in mind, you could always just go with something similar to the Praetors: really expensive and really powerful. That's something Magic doesn't do all the time, and I consider it an identity for a cycle like this. You could also put a keyword on each of them (Honorable, Scry, Overwhelm, Mantle, Reinforce) but make sure they are both splashy and pushed power-wise.
Hello.
First, why do you think wizards wouldn't print a norse mythology set?
Next, about Honoured, the reason it is attacked or blocked is twofold, one is so the mechanic does something against control decks, and the other is so that you have to actually attack to trigger it. Other version such as one you suggest fail one or both of the previous points.
Although scry contributes to the Theros feel, I feel that, currently it justifies it's place in the set. Not only is destiny/fate a central concept in norse mythology, but scry is also a reliable and popular mechanic and contrasts the aggressive nature of much of the set. It is no accident that scry is pushed into , having scry in these colours helps balance aggressive mechanics. I have a second set in planning which does some more things in this area, and that helps also.
On the note of the Theros, while I do believe being similar to Theros is a problem, I don't believe it is a problem (or at least, not a major problem) within the context of only the cards I have posted. My concern earlier was about introducing more Theros related content, not really about the current set. While there is plenty of similarities, there is also plenty of differences, mostly the 'design feel' of the set being based around a sense of larger scale conflict versus Theros' design feel of building up and creating 'champions' of sorts. If there is any suggestions you or anyone else have in this area, please elaborate.
About Overwhelm, while it is true that it doesn't help you when you are behind, it is not limited to 'win more'. Overwhelm is most useful in a stall or tiebreaker situation where it allows to get ahead on the aggression and force the opponent to start playing defensively. If this is a problem with Overwhelm, it should also be a problem with Ferocious and Raid and Battlecry and Exalted and many more mechanics. Attacking with large creatures does not = advantage. It is something that is indicitive of a good position, but not a winning one. As I mentioned earlier in this post, scry is there counteract Overwhelm and Honoured and (somewhat) Reinforce. The 'scry matters' prolifarence is to encourage control decks that don't use the other more aggressive mechanics. In addition, Honoured does some work here as well, encouraging non-Honoured decks to attack and block less and instead focus on playing more of a control game. Reinforce is not that aggresive either, as it is focus on being more midrange value creature style.
About Gods (I am glad you commented on this as it is one of the hardest issues so far), while I agree that they don't need to be enchantment creatures I feel that it would be a bit strange for them not to be when Theros gods where. I could make them not, but only if I decide on some way of doing them that still feels right. I don't want to put Honoured (they should be hard to kill and newer players won't want to trade them either) Scry (no real reason to put it) Overwhelm (this is the Jotnar mechanic, any card with it is Jotnar) Mantle (they are not equipment) or Reinforce (it is feel-bad to discard a god for counters and newer players especially won't do it).
Thank you for your genuinely useful feedback and I am interested to see what you have to say about my responses.
I don't think Wizards would print a top-down Norse mythology set because it isn't popular enough and not enough people know a lot about it. I certainly think they would print a bottom-up Norse mythology set that was supporting some kind of mechanical base, similar to how Khans is an Asian style set. Now that doesn't go against your set at all, I just think people at Wizards would argue that it doesn't have enough mass appeal.
Honorable functions exactly the same with either wording against control decks. If I have a Doom Blade and my opponent has an Honorable creature that is about to attack me, I will kill it at the end of their first main phase to stop my version of Honorable from triggering. I can kill it at the end of their first main phase or at the beginning of combat step and it will stop your version of Honorable from triggering. Very very nearly the same. Now if I had a Devouring Light, I would be forced to kill the creature in combat after it had attacked, so both versions of Honorable would trigger.
On the similarity to Theros, you have to remember that the feel of the set is not very important to showing people that it's different. They have to actually draft it and play it to know that. It has to be different enough on the surface to get them to even play it in the first place. Scry might be fine in the set. But I feel like it lacks a critical mechanic that ties hard into the Norse mythology theme and gives the set its own identity.
The problem with Overwhelm is the variance of the ability in limited. It's either useless because the creature with Overwhelm will get eaten if you drop it (and maybe the triggering attacker will get eaten too) or your current biggest creature AND the next biggest creature will be the best ones on the board, meaning you are at a significant advantage. I don't think the mechanic is terrible, I just think I would argue against it if I was on a design team for the set because there are too many disadvantages and not enough upside.
I don't understand why you would want your gods to be enchantments. The gods in Theros were enchantments and so were their effects on the world around. If you tried to simulate the Norse gods this way, the set would be a 50% replica of Theros. There are thousands of alternative ways to portray your Norse gods. You don't have to put one of your mechanics on each one, that was just a suggestion. But I bet I could show you ways you could do it that would be splashy enough, if you gave me their names and colors.
Hello again
I'm not quite sure what you are saying about Honoured (why do you keep calling it Honourable?) 'dies in combat' is pretty vague and wouldn't work. Are you suggesting something like 'when this creature dies, if it's during combat' or 'when this creature dies, if it was attacking or blocking'? As for the first wording, it doesn't require any combat to happen which is a huge step away from what the mechanic is about design and flavour-wise. The second variation is more worth considering, it does limit the the chance of Honoured triggers occurring which could be useful for making it more of a work-toward, however it could be hurtful in the same way. This is a change I would consider making after playtesting if Honoured is happening too often.
Differentiation from Theros is definitely something on my mind as I develop this set. When playtesting, any mechanics that are candidates for removal could easily be replaced by mechanics that help in this area. Any suggestions about how I could differentiate this set more are welcome as I may have to change some things.
I still don't see what makes Overwhelm different in this regard from so many other mechanics. Any threshold mechanic is a way a win-more mechanic. The pure existence of such a mechanic makes the condition potentially desirable, as a result, something that can be evaluated as being an advantage when obtained. Overwhelm may be particularly prominent in this sense, but I don't think the condition is hard enough to obtain that it won't be a useful mechanic. Overwhelm is the most recent mechanic in the set, so it is the least thought over and it's design was never a certainty, I was and still am happy to hear suggestions on replacements.
God is now a creature type with Theros, and so using it (which I believe should be done here) carries certain expectations that did not exist before. Meeting expectations and creating a sense of cohesiveness is important to design and this leads me to believe that Gods should probably be enchantment creatures in future sets. If gods are not going to be enchantment creatures, I think there should be a good reason for doing so and without any compelling designs available the only reason for this set so far is to differentiate from Theros, which I think would be a lazy way to accomplish this. To repeat, I am not saying they should definitely be enchantments I am just hesitant to make such a change without precedence.
So taking an overall look here wanted to share some thoughts.
Norse mythology is a cool flavor to focus on, but your design goal isn’t really a design goal. A design goal should be defining what kind of experience and gameplay you intend to create in your set. Right now, it just states the sets flavor and mechanical themes. Refining this would probably help some of your designs later.
Honoured sounds nice on paper but I fear it won’t play very well. It kinda encourages you to have your creatures die instead of stick around, which is odd considering the +1/+1 counters and equipment themes you’ve got going. Also, control decks kinda stomp on this as an aggro mechanic, negating a lot of it’s value. It would have to be used in a standard were control was incredibly weak.
Mantle seems fine. It could be quite fun.
Overwhelm seems… really iffy. It’s a positive feedback mechanic (meaning you’re already doing well so this pushes you into “win more” territory) that gets harder and hard to use on big creatures, AKA, the stuff you’d want to cheat into play. Glancing over your card designs using it, they cycle of mythics you have using it kinda prove those concerns. There abilities range from solid to underwhelming, often just plain unexciting. They all feel like rares if anything. Overwhelm feels more like granting a creature haste when you already have something big on the field while getting a 1 mana discount if any at all. It doesn’t feel like a mechanic that should be in all colors.
Scry and reinforce are fair mechanics to return.
Another general thing to note is the relative power level of cards in your set. I already mentioned the mythic cycle with overwhelm doesn’t really feel mythic. Conversely, a lot of you commons and rares push the power level pretty hard. Reinforce 3 or greater is extremely strong, and shouldn’t be on a common for example. Immersturm Bolt is a extremely powerful common as well that would define limited play and could be standard playable in a burn friendly environment.
Rares of yours are often unfair. Looking at black rares, Decide Fate is better then Enduring Renewal (a very powerful card to be sure) and Darakr Cursemaker is extreme card advantage thanks to the instant speed discard it adds to all your spells (which wizards doesn't do instant discarding for a reason.)
The number of reprints you’ve included so far is also quite high. It kind lowers the appeal when some colors have 3-4 reprints.
Where is mantle used?
There are occasional gems in this set that hint at good ideas (I like Armament Master for example) but there seems to be a lot of missed scaling of effects/grandeur that is holding you back, as well as a lack of an idea of what kind of experience you want your set to create beyond Norse Mythology flavor.
Sorry, I realize this post is all over the place, but just looking to cover my initial impressions.
Hi
The design goal is exactly what kind of experience and gameplay I intend to create, one that emulates the style and feel of norse mythology and the norse world. Perhaps this isn't clear, but that's what I mean.
Honoured is supposed to play differently to some of the other mechanics, so conflicting motivations is fine in moderation. Although it seems as though it's a mechanic about having your creatures die, that's not really what honoured is about. It's the threat of it and the presence of it that makes it what it is. Honoured don't need to die to get value from the ability, decisions made by your opponent will often be otherwise subpar in the presence of Honoured as a modifier. While there is certainly the support and the want to use it just as a death trigger, it's not the only use. Honoured does interact with control decks, it still affects their decision making. They don't have to have creatures, they have removal. Against control, Honoured will often force them to kill a problem creature before combat, giving you time to change your decision making. It's not as big of an effect as it is against creature-heavy decks, but that should be OK, as the mechanic can be balanced with this in mind. To make it clear, the wording of Honoured and it's effects is open to change and it's one of the things I really want to playtest (which I am starting very, very soon)
Overwhelm has problems I will admit, but I don't think they are not solvable. The real issue in my mind is whether it is worth the effort that would take. Overwhelm is not really in all colours, blue and white only get one card (blue for mechanics reasons, white for flavour and set reasons although I could have more).
I am happy with my choice of returning mechanics and I am glad you agree.
I feel that the mythic cycle are justified considering that the titans were also and these cards are quite similar (not a coincidence). Cards in the set are not balanced exactly and I like to make things powerful to start (perhaps a weakness of mine, and a lot of other designers I think). Reinforce 3 is not strong unless costed as such. The raw power of an effect doesn't make it inappropriate at common unless it is vastly game changing. Immersturm Bolt is not overpowered by any means. Bathe in Dragonfire and Lighting Strike and similarly powerful and those are both commons. Burn spells are normally costed as 1cc two damage, 2cc three damage, 3cc 4 damage etc. with sorcery speed adding a damage. It's a good card in limited and is borderline constructed playable but it won't brake anything.
Decide Fate is balanced based on Athreos. Darakr Cursemaker is potentially unfun with instant speed discard, yes, and is potentially too powerful but Ashiok's Adept exists so a single, rarer example should be developable.
The reprint number is intentionally quite high, because this set is two set paradigm designed, which means no core set and hence more reprints.
About mantle: I don't understand the question. Do you mean where are the cards with it, which they are simply under artifacts and lands, at rare, uncommon and common.
Thank you for your genuinely useful feedback and I would like to hear your thoughts after I post playtesting updates (which is partly why I haven't made any conclusive statements in this response)
Hi
The design goal is exactly what kind of experience and gameplay I intend to create, one that emulates the style and feel of norse mythology and the norse world. Perhaps this isn't clear, but that's what I mean.
I got that what your design goal is at this point. The problem is, that's not a design goal. That's an inspiration. What is the gameplay that a norse mythological world isnpires? That question isn't answered.
Think about it this way: What was Theros' design goal? It wasn't "to emulate the style and feel of Greeco-Roman mythology." It took that as an inspiration and interpreted that to mean "Create gameplay where heroes and monster grow in strength over their journey until they become unstoppable forces." That's a design goal. It sets a standard to the gameplay that everyone has a clear sense on. What a "Norse Mythological Feel" is interpreted as could mean a ton of different gameplay directions.
I feel that the mythic cycle are justified considering that the titans were also and these cards are quite similar (not a coincidence). Cards in the set are not balanced exactly and I like to make things powerful to start (perhaps a weakness of mine, and a lot of other designers I think).
The mythic cycle for overwhelm is pretty bad. I think most players would be disappointed to pull any of those.
Reinforce 3 is not strong unless costed as such. The raw power of an effect doesn't make it inappropriate at common unless it is vastly game changing.
It is VERY game changing, and there is a reason no more than reinforce 2 was done at common. Having the alternative option to play a creature/spell as is or reinforce is always a strong. A permanent +3/+3 boost at instant speed is already a really good effect on top of the creature body. Versatility matters. Both your Eyes of Alorus and Wilder Wurm are way over the curve for commons (and uncommons arguably), regardless of whether or not you agree with keeping reinforce low.
Immersturm Bolt is not overpowered by any means. Bathe in Dragonfire and Lighting Strike and similarly powerful and those are both commons. Burn spells are normally costed as 1cc two damage, 2cc three damage, 3cc 4 damage etc. with sorcery speed adding a damage. It's a good card in limited and is borderline constructed playable but it won't brake anything.
Versatile, splashable 4 damaging burn for 3CC is not standard. Bathe in dragon fire only hits creatures, and the 4 damage threshold for burn has been a signifact cost increase in temporary magic over things like Lightning Strike, as it kills players in 5 uses versus 7 while killing most relevent creatures that cost 4 or less (and many that cost more.) In limited it's more than "good", it's format defining, and still usuable in constructed. Any deck that runs red will have it and be able to easily deal with 4 toughness creatures or less, make them far less valuable. Keep that in mind.
Decide Fate is balanced based on Athreos.
Athreos is multicolored and gives them a choice. Decide fate does neither. Also, its hard to refute when a specific example is cited as an easy infinite combo engine that probably isn't work repeating, especially costing less.
Darakr Cursemaker is potentially unfun with instant speed discard, yes, and is potentially too powerful but Ashiok's Adept exists so a single, rarer example should be developable.
Perhaps, but I can assure you, this version isn't it. The difference between a heroic trigger and any noncreature spell you cast is huge. You can similtaneously destroy the board and an opponents hand all at instant speed never letting your opponent draw or keeping things in play over and over again while pumping up your creature, all for the one time investment of 2B. Doesn't that just sound unfun and unfair?
About mantle: I don't understand the question. Do you mean where are the cards with it, which they are simply under artifacts and lands, at rare, uncommon and common.
Ah I missed those somehow. Though I imagined mantel as being an alternative way to equip as opposed to the only way to equip. Not sure what I think about that.
I guess I should be more specific with my design goal, I will update that in a moment
About the Jotnar lords, you say people would be disappointed by them. Do you mean they are bad design wise or power level wise? If you mean design do you mean boring design (which I don't really see) or broken design (they are pretty standard, don't do anything unfun or counterintuitive or whatnot). If you mean power level I can't see that. Oroborg is exteremely powerful against board stalls, capable of winning the game out of nowhere and the others are similar.
About reinforce, the balancing of higher reinforce amounts is still open. On some of the commons, perhaps it's a bit to strong. But, keep in mind this set is still being designed, power level is not my primary concern and keep in mind that current sets are not the only reference for balancing. R&D has openly admitted that power level of set components shift significantly over time. The same argument is valid for Immersturm Bolt. All cards are subject to future balancing as well and time will tell where certain cards should be costed at.
Although it is easier to play and more versatile in it's effect, Decide Fate is not indestructible nor does not have the ability to become a creature. It is a strong card and it may be a bit too powerful but it's not overtly so.
Darakr Cursemaker is open to changing based on playtesting, as are all the cards. I won't be changing anything significantly unless it obviously needs it until playtesting updates. Darkar Cursemaker, by the way, was designed to be a constructed mono-black prowess card, in a cycle with Norn Apprentice and Suncaster of prowess creatures that have corresponding triggered abilities.
Mantle equipment doesn't have equip for three reasons:
flavourfully, mantle represents magical equipment that is earned, like Thor's Hammer
developmentally it is easier and more interesting if the cards only have one way to be equipped
About the Jotnar lords, you say people would be disappointed by them. Do you mean they are bad design wise or power level wise? If you mean design do you mean boring design (which I don't really see)
They are dull. There abilities invoke little to no sense of awe.
About reinforce, the balancing of higher reinforce amounts is still open. On some of the commons, perhaps it's a bit to strong. But, keep in mind this set is still being designed, power level is not my primary concern and keep in mind that current sets are not the only reference for balancing. R&D has openly admitted that power level of set components shift significantly over time. The same argument is valid for Immersturm Bolt. All cards are subject to future balancing as well and time will tell where certain cards should be costed at.
Right now you're generalizing about R&D adjusting power levels. That's not a valid argument. In the context of your set, do you feel it's important to keep creatures with toughness 4 or less in check while also encouraging Red Deck Wins? Does a card that can give a permanent +5/+5 at instant speed and can be a 5/5 creature itself for 5 mana not concern you? Why? Make an argument about why you think those power levels are good for your set and/or a standard environment and you'll start see your intent (or perhaps misstep) behind your designs.
Although it is easier to play and more versatile in it's effect, Decide Fate is not indestructible nor does not have the ability to become a creature.
That has nothing to do with the fact it's a glaringly obvious, cheap infinite combo enabler and Athreos is not.
Darakr Cursemaker is open to changing based on playtesting, as are all the cards. I won't be changing anything significantly unless it obviously needs it until playtesting updates. Darkar Cursemaker, by the way, was designed to be a constructed mono-black prowess card, in a cycle with Norn Apprentice and Suncaster of prowess creatures that have corresponding triggered abilities.
It will be constructed playable. Oppressively so. With a mechanic R&D has described as "unfun." When you test it, let me know.
Thanks once again for your feedback.
The Jotnar Lords' design is in hold as overwhelm is not fixed in the set, if overwhelm is replaced they will be changed accordingly.
Immersturm Bolt is justified in the same manner as lightning strike. Even if 1 mana =/= 1 damage it's only sorcery speed, whereas lightning strike isn't. It's good, yes, but it should be fair.
High Reinforce numbers are pretty similar to just playing a creature, and more vulnerable to removal. It is certainly not something I want in any large amount but I think the set can support. Costing is open to change based on playtesting.
I would give a more detailed response, but I am in the process of playtesting so there's not much point making many changes now.
UPDATE
Initial Playtesting Complete: Results to Come
Further Playtesting Continues
In other news; I posted a thread discussing my ideas for a different set in the same standard as this one. It's based around a unique multicolour system and is set on Alara. Link below (Fate of Alara)
Thank you.
Proof of Concept Complete (testing combat matters and norse mythology as a theme)
Mechanics Testing in Progress
Current Set Mechanics:
Overwhelm
Honoured
Reinforce
Scry
Mantle
Mechanics for Potential Replacement: 'Victorious' (potential second set mechanic): Whenever a creature dealt combat damage by this creature dies, (effect) (Could replace Honoured)
'Rally' (n): (Whenever this creature attacks alone, put (n) 1/1 creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking) (Something like this could replace Honoured/Reinforce)
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn) (could replace scry)
Monstrosity (returning) (Could replace Overwhelm)
Exalted (returning) (Could replace Honoured)
Bloodthirst (returning) (Could replace Overwhelm)
UPDATE (elaboration)
Mechanics Most Suitable for Replacement (out of the set)
Overwhelm (gameplay and mechanical concerns)
Scry (flavour concerns with manipulating fate)
Reinforce (unnecessary to the set, could be removed to make room for other mechanics)
Suggestions for Replacements (into the set) very welcome!
EDIT: UPDATE
1,500 views! Yay! Thanks to Everyone for Their Support!
Expect more playtesting updates in the next few days (although I have had some stalls).
This mechanic was originally supposed to be in the second (final) set as the marquee mechanic. However, due to concerns of the appropriateness of scry (raised by StairC in his podcast with Doombringer) I may need a mechanic in the first set to replace it and it could fit well. This is that mechanic:
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn)
Fated is a state given to a card and the spell created by it (and permanent if applicable). Cards with fated always have a a separate ability that is active if the card was fated. The final line of the rules text is to prevent a card being fated before being cast, trivialising the drawback of revealing it and ruining the flavour of foretelling.
Fated represent the norse sense of destiny, that some things are meant to happen and no matter what will always come to pass. Epic battles, moments of figures are foretold for greatness and inevitable ruin.
An example:
(name?) World Serpent ( )
Legendary Creature- Serpent (M)
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn)
When World Serpent enters the battlefield, if it was fated, tap each creature your opponents control. They don’t untap during their controller’s next untap step.
When World Serpent dies, put any number of cards from your graveyard on top of your library.
7/7 “Behold, the World Serpent comes and the sea is called into a fury” – The Twilight of the Gods
-
Thoughts on this mechanic? Should I be using in both sets and replacing scry, or saving it for the second and finding other solutions?
Thank you.
Makes room for other potentially returning mechanics
Foreshadows second set
Cons
Archetypes/colour balance reshuffling necessary (may not be as successful)
More development required on second set's mechanics necessary (ditto)
Potentially less room for mechanic relevancy in archetypes (i.e. Can it matter?)
Space needed for supporting cards to replace scry
Some Cards to give a sense of how Fated would work in set:
Grand Mistreader ( )
Creature- Norn Wizard (R)
Whenever you reveal a card from your hand, untap Grand Mistreader.
, : Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library.
2/4
Crashing Tide Sorcerer ( )
Creature- Human Wizard (U)
Whenever you reveal a card from your hand, return an instant or sorcery card at random from graveyard to your hand.
2/2
Norn Apprentice ( )
Creature- Norn Wizard (U)
Prowess
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, draw a card, then put a card from your hand on top of your library.
2/2
In response to your concerns:
1. You keep track of your own hand, if you have multiples, the difference is insignificant so that could be ruled in a bunch of ways. If an opponent sees your hand. They will already know that you had any fated cards and which cards those were so it doesn't matter.
2. Yes, the marking doesn't apply unless ruled uniquely, but that's fine. The rules would be something like: 'When a card becomes Fated, if it becomes a different type of object (such as a spell or permanent), it will remain fated. A card that is Fated will only lose that quality if it enters the graveyard, a library or the command zone. When transitioning between any other zones it will always remain Fated.' It's a bit rough, but this way cards are fated and will only change in circumstances that make sense (exile is excluded because the only ways to return from exile are flavoured and/or designed as such that it makes sense to remain Fated). This is likely too specific to ignore on cards, but gives the basis for how it could work the way I want it too. Otherwise, it could be 'When a card becomes fated, it will remain so for the rest of the game regardless of zone changes and changes in permanent types.'
A general question to everyone: How should the rules for Fated work and should I include more detail in the reminder text?
3. Drawing at the start just doesn't count same as with miracle, no need to change for that to work. What would be gained by changing it to only the first card? It is my understanding is that Miracle had to the help identify the card and preserve the 'miracle topdeck' flavour, neither of which apply here.
4. Yes, that won't be true here. 'Fating' a card will give your opponent useful information and they will the time to act and plan based on it, making it something you don't always want to do. Another reason to support just 'when you draw...', because you don't always want to do it anyway.
The exile version is more complex, less intuitive and distracts from the point of the mechanic. I'd rather get rid of the mechanic if it doesn't work.
1. As I said the zone ruling is probably too complex, but I just wanted to throw it out there. The second ruling should work though and makes sense.
2. As you said, a simple ruling would fix the mulligan triggering if necessary. It's more complex because it does more things actively in the game by a lot. It's not intuitive because it seems weird and it definitely ruins the flavour with the seemingly unnecessary extra step. Exiling the card in any way confuses things. The simpler solution practically and actively is the better solution here even if in technicality in the rules it is more complex.
As you can tell, there is some rules issues to be worked out. But the mechanic should be workable with intuition and player understanding to help ease over complexity in the background.
Potential Change:
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn)
to
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, you can't cast it this turn)
This way fated is not a quality but becoming fated is an action that can be referenced nonetheless. Thoughts on this vs any other wordings?
I don't see how Fated can work with the rules and memory issues. It seems like it'd make a rules manager's head explode. I do like how it's dedicated more to destiny than scry though.
I'd recommend playing with Forecast. It has VERY similar flavor and is much easier to work with.
Sphinx of the Immersturm 4RU
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
When Sphinx of the Immersturm enters the battlefield, if you forecast it this game, draw four cards and discard two cards.
Forecast UR -- Reveal ~ from your hand: Draw two cards and discard two cards.
5/5
Private Mod Note
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I really like Honorable. I would love for the mechanic to be worded: "Whenever this creature dies in combat, effect". It's very easy to grok and understand that way, and it functions the same. The terminology is slightly loose and might bother some people, but functionally it works fine.
I agree that scry helps this set be too similar to Theros. I think a mechanic playing with the top card of the library could be cool.
I don't like Overwhelm because it rewards the player that is already winning far too much. It's also another mechanic that rewards aggressive play. Some players, like myself, enjoy blocking and going long (control) in limited, and I wouldn't like to play a set full of aggressive mechanics. Maybe try a threshold ability that checks the creature with the highest power on the battlefield.
You do need gods, and you definitely don't need to make them enchantment creatures. If you don't have a mechanical identity in mind, you could always just go with something similar to the Praetors: really expensive and really powerful. That's something Magic doesn't do all the time, and I consider it an identity for a cycle like this. You could also put a keyword on each of them (Honorable, Scry, Overwhelm, Mantle, Reinforce) but make sure they are both splashy and pushed power-wise.
First, why do you think wizards wouldn't print a norse mythology set?
Next, about Honoured, the reason it is attacked or blocked is twofold, one is so the mechanic does something against control decks, and the other is so that you have to actually attack to trigger it. Other version such as one you suggest fail one or both of the previous points.
Although scry contributes to the Theros feel, I feel that, currently it justifies it's place in the set. Not only is destiny/fate a central concept in norse mythology, but scry is also a reliable and popular mechanic and contrasts the aggressive nature of much of the set. It is no accident that scry is pushed into , having scry in these colours helps balance aggressive mechanics. I have a second set in planning which does some more things in this area, and that helps also.
On the note of the Theros, while I do believe being similar to Theros is a problem, I don't believe it is a problem (or at least, not a major problem) within the context of only the cards I have posted. My concern earlier was about introducing more Theros related content, not really about the current set. While there is plenty of similarities, there is also plenty of differences, mostly the 'design feel' of the set being based around a sense of larger scale conflict versus Theros' design feel of building up and creating 'champions' of sorts. If there is any suggestions you or anyone else have in this area, please elaborate.
About Overwhelm, while it is true that it doesn't help you when you are behind, it is not limited to 'win more'. Overwhelm is most useful in a stall or tiebreaker situation where it allows to get ahead on the aggression and force the opponent to start playing defensively. If this is a problem with Overwhelm, it should also be a problem with Ferocious and Raid and Battlecry and Exalted and many more mechanics. Attacking with large creatures does not = advantage. It is something that is indicitive of a good position, but not a winning one. As I mentioned earlier in this post, scry is there counteract Overwhelm and Honoured and (somewhat) Reinforce. The 'scry matters' prolifarence is to encourage control decks that don't use the other more aggressive mechanics. In addition, Honoured does some work here as well, encouraging non-Honoured decks to attack and block less and instead focus on playing more of a control game. Reinforce is not that aggresive either, as it is focus on being more midrange value creature style.
About Gods (I am glad you commented on this as it is one of the hardest issues so far), while I agree that they don't need to be enchantment creatures I feel that it would be a bit strange for them not to be when Theros gods where. I could make them not, but only if I decide on some way of doing them that still feels right. I don't want to put Honoured (they should be hard to kill and newer players won't want to trade them either) Scry (no real reason to put it) Overwhelm (this is the Jotnar mechanic, any card with it is Jotnar) Mantle (they are not equipment) or Reinforce (it is feel-bad to discard a god for counters and newer players especially won't do it).
Thank you for your genuinely useful feedback and I am interested to see what you have to say about my responses.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Some cards added, balancing/partial redesign alterations
Major formatting overhaul (finally got around to it)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Honorable functions exactly the same with either wording against control decks. If I have a Doom Blade and my opponent has an Honorable creature that is about to attack me, I will kill it at the end of their first main phase to stop my version of Honorable from triggering. I can kill it at the end of their first main phase or at the beginning of combat step and it will stop your version of Honorable from triggering. Very very nearly the same. Now if I had a Devouring Light, I would be forced to kill the creature in combat after it had attacked, so both versions of Honorable would trigger.
On the similarity to Theros, you have to remember that the feel of the set is not very important to showing people that it's different. They have to actually draft it and play it to know that. It has to be different enough on the surface to get them to even play it in the first place. Scry might be fine in the set. But I feel like it lacks a critical mechanic that ties hard into the Norse mythology theme and gives the set its own identity.
The problem with Overwhelm is the variance of the ability in limited. It's either useless because the creature with Overwhelm will get eaten if you drop it (and maybe the triggering attacker will get eaten too) or your current biggest creature AND the next biggest creature will be the best ones on the board, meaning you are at a significant advantage. I don't think the mechanic is terrible, I just think I would argue against it if I was on a design team for the set because there are too many disadvantages and not enough upside.
I don't understand why you would want your gods to be enchantments. The gods in Theros were enchantments and so were their effects on the world around. If you tried to simulate the Norse gods this way, the set would be a 50% replica of Theros. There are thousands of alternative ways to portray your Norse gods. You don't have to put one of your mechanics on each one, that was just a suggestion. But I bet I could show you ways you could do it that would be splashy enough, if you gave me their names and colors.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying about Honoured (why do you keep calling it Honourable?) 'dies in combat' is pretty vague and wouldn't work. Are you suggesting something like 'when this creature dies, if it's during combat' or 'when this creature dies, if it was attacking or blocking'? As for the first wording, it doesn't require any combat to happen which is a huge step away from what the mechanic is about design and flavour-wise. The second variation is more worth considering, it does limit the the chance of Honoured triggers occurring which could be useful for making it more of a work-toward, however it could be hurtful in the same way. This is a change I would consider making after playtesting if Honoured is happening too often.
Differentiation from Theros is definitely something on my mind as I develop this set. When playtesting, any mechanics that are candidates for removal could easily be replaced by mechanics that help in this area. Any suggestions about how I could differentiate this set more are welcome as I may have to change some things.
I still don't see what makes Overwhelm different in this regard from so many other mechanics. Any threshold mechanic is a way a win-more mechanic. The pure existence of such a mechanic makes the condition potentially desirable, as a result, something that can be evaluated as being an advantage when obtained. Overwhelm may be particularly prominent in this sense, but I don't think the condition is hard enough to obtain that it won't be a useful mechanic. Overwhelm is the most recent mechanic in the set, so it is the least thought over and it's design was never a certainty, I was and still am happy to hear suggestions on replacements.
God is now a creature type with Theros, and so using it (which I believe should be done here) carries certain expectations that did not exist before. Meeting expectations and creating a sense of cohesiveness is important to design and this leads me to believe that Gods should probably be enchantment creatures in future sets. If gods are not going to be enchantment creatures, I think there should be a good reason for doing so and without any compelling designs available the only reason for this set so far is to differentiate from Theros, which I think would be a lazy way to accomplish this. To repeat, I am not saying they should definitely be enchantments I am just hesitant to make such a change without precedence.
Thank you for you continued support
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Formatting finished, common cards added
Playtesting soon
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Norse mythology is a cool flavor to focus on, but your design goal isn’t really a design goal. A design goal should be defining what kind of experience and gameplay you intend to create in your set. Right now, it just states the sets flavor and mechanical themes. Refining this would probably help some of your designs later.
Honoured sounds nice on paper but I fear it won’t play very well. It kinda encourages you to have your creatures die instead of stick around, which is odd considering the +1/+1 counters and equipment themes you’ve got going. Also, control decks kinda stomp on this as an aggro mechanic, negating a lot of it’s value. It would have to be used in a standard were control was incredibly weak.
Mantle seems fine. It could be quite fun.
Overwhelm seems… really iffy. It’s a positive feedback mechanic (meaning you’re already doing well so this pushes you into “win more” territory) that gets harder and hard to use on big creatures, AKA, the stuff you’d want to cheat into play. Glancing over your card designs using it, they cycle of mythics you have using it kinda prove those concerns. There abilities range from solid to underwhelming, often just plain unexciting. They all feel like rares if anything. Overwhelm feels more like granting a creature haste when you already have something big on the field while getting a 1 mana discount if any at all. It doesn’t feel like a mechanic that should be in all colors.
Scry and reinforce are fair mechanics to return.
Another general thing to note is the relative power level of cards in your set. I already mentioned the mythic cycle with overwhelm doesn’t really feel mythic. Conversely, a lot of you commons and rares push the power level pretty hard. Reinforce 3 or greater is extremely strong, and shouldn’t be on a common for example. Immersturm Bolt is a extremely powerful common as well that would define limited play and could be standard playable in a burn friendly environment.
Rares of yours are often unfair. Looking at black rares, Decide Fate is better then Enduring Renewal (a very powerful card to be sure) and Darakr Cursemaker is extreme card advantage thanks to the instant speed discard it adds to all your spells (which wizards doesn't do instant discarding for a reason.)
The number of reprints you’ve included so far is also quite high. It kind lowers the appeal when some colors have 3-4 reprints.
Where is mantle used?
There are occasional gems in this set that hint at good ideas (I like Armament Master for example) but there seems to be a lot of missed scaling of effects/grandeur that is holding you back, as well as a lack of an idea of what kind of experience you want your set to create beyond Norse Mythology flavor.
Sorry, I realize this post is all over the place, but just looking to cover my initial impressions.
The design goal is exactly what kind of experience and gameplay I intend to create, one that emulates the style and feel of norse mythology and the norse world. Perhaps this isn't clear, but that's what I mean.
Honoured is supposed to play differently to some of the other mechanics, so conflicting motivations is fine in moderation. Although it seems as though it's a mechanic about having your creatures die, that's not really what honoured is about. It's the threat of it and the presence of it that makes it what it is. Honoured don't need to die to get value from the ability, decisions made by your opponent will often be otherwise subpar in the presence of Honoured as a modifier. While there is certainly the support and the want to use it just as a death trigger, it's not the only use. Honoured does interact with control decks, it still affects their decision making. They don't have to have creatures, they have removal. Against control, Honoured will often force them to kill a problem creature before combat, giving you time to change your decision making. It's not as big of an effect as it is against creature-heavy decks, but that should be OK, as the mechanic can be balanced with this in mind. To make it clear, the wording of Honoured and it's effects is open to change and it's one of the things I really want to playtest (which I am starting very, very soon)
Overwhelm has problems I will admit, but I don't think they are not solvable. The real issue in my mind is whether it is worth the effort that would take. Overwhelm is not really in all colours, blue and white only get one card (blue for mechanics reasons, white for flavour and set reasons although I could have more).
I am happy with my choice of returning mechanics and I am glad you agree.
I feel that the mythic cycle are justified considering that the titans were also and these cards are quite similar (not a coincidence). Cards in the set are not balanced exactly and I like to make things powerful to start (perhaps a weakness of mine, and a lot of other designers I think). Reinforce 3 is not strong unless costed as such. The raw power of an effect doesn't make it inappropriate at common unless it is vastly game changing. Immersturm Bolt is not overpowered by any means. Bathe in Dragonfire and Lighting Strike and similarly powerful and those are both commons. Burn spells are normally costed as 1cc two damage, 2cc three damage, 3cc 4 damage etc. with sorcery speed adding a damage. It's a good card in limited and is borderline constructed playable but it won't brake anything.
Decide Fate is balanced based on Athreos. Darakr Cursemaker is potentially unfun with instant speed discard, yes, and is potentially too powerful but Ashiok's Adept exists so a single, rarer example should be developable.
The reprint number is intentionally quite high, because this set is two set paradigm designed, which means no core set and hence more reprints.
About mantle: I don't understand the question. Do you mean where are the cards with it, which they are simply under artifacts and lands, at rare, uncommon and common.
Thank you for your genuinely useful feedback and I would like to hear your thoughts after I post playtesting updates (which is partly why I haven't made any conclusive statements in this response)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Commons added, balancing changes
-Beginning Playtesting-
Updates to follow
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Because I felt like it.
Potential New Mechanics (may be moved to the first set but only if it really needs it)
'Fated' and 'Victorious'
Speculate Away!
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I got that what your design goal is at this point. The problem is, that's not a design goal. That's an inspiration. What is the gameplay that a norse mythological world isnpires? That question isn't answered.
Think about it this way: What was Theros' design goal? It wasn't "to emulate the style and feel of Greeco-Roman mythology." It took that as an inspiration and interpreted that to mean "Create gameplay where heroes and monster grow in strength over their journey until they become unstoppable forces." That's a design goal. It sets a standard to the gameplay that everyone has a clear sense on. What a "Norse Mythological Feel" is interpreted as could mean a ton of different gameplay directions.
The mythic cycle for overwhelm is pretty bad. I think most players would be disappointed to pull any of those.
It is VERY game changing, and there is a reason no more than reinforce 2 was done at common. Having the alternative option to play a creature/spell as is or reinforce is always a strong. A permanent +3/+3 boost at instant speed is already a really good effect on top of the creature body. Versatility matters. Both your Eyes of Alorus and Wilder Wurm are way over the curve for commons (and uncommons arguably), regardless of whether or not you agree with keeping reinforce low.
Versatile, splashable 4 damaging burn for 3CC is not standard. Bathe in dragon fire only hits creatures, and the 4 damage threshold for burn has been a signifact cost increase in temporary magic over things like Lightning Strike, as it kills players in 5 uses versus 7 while killing most relevent creatures that cost 4 or less (and many that cost more.) In limited it's more than "good", it's format defining, and still usuable in constructed. Any deck that runs red will have it and be able to easily deal with 4 toughness creatures or less, make them far less valuable. Keep that in mind.
Athreos is multicolored and gives them a choice. Decide fate does neither. Also, its hard to refute when a specific example is cited as an easy infinite combo engine that probably isn't work repeating, especially costing less.
Perhaps, but I can assure you, this version isn't it. The difference between a heroic trigger and any noncreature spell you cast is huge. You can similtaneously destroy the board and an opponents hand all at instant speed never letting your opponent draw or keeping things in play over and over again while pumping up your creature, all for the one time investment of 2B. Doesn't that just sound unfun and unfair?
Ah I missed those somehow. Though I imagined mantel as being an alternative way to equip as opposed to the only way to equip. Not sure what I think about that.
I guess I should be more specific with my design goal, I will update that in a moment
About the Jotnar lords, you say people would be disappointed by them. Do you mean they are bad design wise or power level wise? If you mean design do you mean boring design (which I don't really see) or broken design (they are pretty standard, don't do anything unfun or counterintuitive or whatnot). If you mean power level I can't see that. Oroborg is exteremely powerful against board stalls, capable of winning the game out of nowhere and the others are similar.
About reinforce, the balancing of higher reinforce amounts is still open. On some of the commons, perhaps it's a bit to strong. But, keep in mind this set is still being designed, power level is not my primary concern and keep in mind that current sets are not the only reference for balancing. R&D has openly admitted that power level of set components shift significantly over time. The same argument is valid for Immersturm Bolt. All cards are subject to future balancing as well and time will tell where certain cards should be costed at.
Although it is easier to play and more versatile in it's effect, Decide Fate is not indestructible nor does not have the ability to become a creature. It is a strong card and it may be a bit too powerful but it's not overtly so.
Darakr Cursemaker is open to changing based on playtesting, as are all the cards. I won't be changing anything significantly unless it obviously needs it until playtesting updates. Darkar Cursemaker, by the way, was designed to be a constructed mono-black prowess card, in a cycle with Norn Apprentice and Suncaster of prowess creatures that have corresponding triggered abilities.
Mantle equipment doesn't have equip for three reasons:
Thank you again.
EDIT: (updated)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Right now you're generalizing about R&D adjusting power levels. That's not a valid argument. In the context of your set, do you feel it's important to keep creatures with toughness 4 or less in check while also encouraging Red Deck Wins? Does a card that can give a permanent +5/+5 at instant speed and can be a 5/5 creature itself for 5 mana not concern you? Why? Make an argument about why you think those power levels are good for your set and/or a standard environment and you'll start see your intent (or perhaps misstep) behind your designs.
That has nothing to do with the fact it's a glaringly obvious, cheap infinite combo enabler and Athreos is not.
It will be constructed playable. Oppressively so. With a mechanic R&D has described as "unfun." When you test it, let me know.
The Jotnar Lords' design is in hold as overwhelm is not fixed in the set, if overwhelm is replaced they will be changed accordingly.
Immersturm Bolt is justified in the same manner as lightning strike. Even if 1 mana =/= 1 damage it's only sorcery speed, whereas lightning strike isn't. It's good, yes, but it should be fair.
High Reinforce numbers are pretty similar to just playing a creature, and more vulnerable to removal. It is certainly not something I want in any large amount but I think the set can support. Costing is open to change based on playtesting.
I would give a more detailed response, but I am in the process of playtesting so there's not much point making many changes now.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Initial Playtesting Complete: Results to Come
Further Playtesting Continues
In other news; I posted a thread discussing my ideas for a different set in the same standard as this one. It's based around a unique multicolour system and is set on Alara. Link below (Fate of Alara)
Thank you.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Proof of Concept Complete (testing combat matters and norse mythology as a theme)
Mechanics Testing in Progress
Current Set Mechanics:
Overwhelm
Honoured
Reinforce
Scry
Mantle
Mechanics for Potential Replacement:
'Victorious' (potential second set mechanic): Whenever a creature dealt combat damage by this creature dies, (effect) (Could replace Honoured)
'Rally' (n): (Whenever this creature attacks alone, put (n) 1/1 creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking) (Something like this could replace Honoured/Reinforce)
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn) (could replace scry)
Monstrosity (returning) (Could replace Overwhelm)
Exalted (returning) (Could replace Honoured)
Bloodthirst (returning) (Could replace Overwhelm)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Mechanics Most Suitable for Replacement (out of the set)
Overwhelm (gameplay and mechanical concerns)
Scry (flavour concerns with manipulating fate)
Reinforce (unnecessary to the set, could be removed to make room for other mechanics)
Suggestions for Replacements (into the set) very welcome!
EDIT: UPDATE
1,500 views! Yay! Thanks to Everyone for Their Support!
Expect more playtesting updates in the next few days (although I have had some stalls).
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Cards of Concern (potentially change or remove):
Decide Fate (potentially OP, combo risk)
Darakr Cursemaker (potentially OP/unfun)
Jotnar Lords Cycle (potentially underpowered/underwhelming design)
Suncaster (potentially OP)
Jotnar's Bane (potentially underpowered)
Eyes of Alorus (potentially OP)
Wilder Wurm (potentially OP)
Immersturm Bolt (potentially OP)
EDIT: UPDATE
Miasar's Presence changed (oppressive)
Worldtree Aven changed (poor design, overlap with Honoured)
Rising Champion weakened (overpowered)
-
Thoughts on any of these cards would be helpful and much appreciated.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
This mechanic was originally supposed to be in the second (final) set as the marquee mechanic. However, due to concerns of the appropriateness of scry (raised by StairC in his podcast with Doombringer) I may need a mechanic in the first set to replace it and it could fit well. This is that mechanic:
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn)
Fated is a state given to a card and the spell created by it (and permanent if applicable). Cards with fated always have a a separate ability that is active if the card was fated. The final line of the rules text is to prevent a card being fated before being cast, trivialising the drawback of revealing it and ruining the flavour of foretelling.
Fated represent the norse sense of destiny, that some things are meant to happen and no matter what will always come to pass. Epic battles, moments of figures are foretold for greatness and inevitable ruin.
An example:
(name?) World Serpent ( )
Legendary Creature- Serpent (M)
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn)
When World Serpent enters the battlefield, if it was fated, tap each creature your opponents control. They don’t untap during their controller’s next untap step.
When World Serpent dies, put any number of cards from your graveyard on top of your library.
7/7
“Behold, the World Serpent comes and the sea is called into a fury” – The Twilight of the Gods
-
Thoughts on this mechanic? Should I be using in both sets and replacing scry, or saving it for the second and finding other solutions?
Thank you.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Suggested Change: Scry (Out) - Fated (In)
Pros
Cons
Some Cards to give a sense of how Fated would work in set:
Grand Mistreader ( )
Creature- Norn Wizard (R)
Whenever you reveal a card from your hand, untap Grand Mistreader.
, : Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library.
2/4
Crashing Tide Sorcerer ( )
Creature- Human Wizard (U)
Whenever you reveal a card from your hand, return an instant or sorcery card at random from graveyard to your hand.
2/2
Norn Apprentice ( )
Creature- Norn Wizard (U)
Prowess
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, draw a card, then put a card from your hand on top of your library.
2/2
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
In response to your concerns:
1. You keep track of your own hand, if you have multiples, the difference is insignificant so that could be ruled in a bunch of ways. If an opponent sees your hand. They will already know that you had any fated cards and which cards those were so it doesn't matter.
2. Yes, the marking doesn't apply unless ruled uniquely, but that's fine. The rules would be something like: 'When a card becomes Fated, if it becomes a different type of object (such as a spell or permanent), it will remain fated. A card that is Fated will only lose that quality if it enters the graveyard, a library or the command zone. When transitioning between any other zones it will always remain Fated.' It's a bit rough, but this way cards are fated and will only change in circumstances that make sense (exile is excluded because the only ways to return from exile are flavoured and/or designed as such that it makes sense to remain Fated). This is likely too specific to ignore on cards, but gives the basis for how it could work the way I want it too. Otherwise, it could be 'When a card becomes fated, it will remain so for the rest of the game regardless of zone changes and changes in permanent types.'
A general question to everyone: How should the rules for Fated work and should I include more detail in the reminder text?
3. Drawing at the start just doesn't count same as with miracle, no need to change for that to work. What would be gained by changing it to only the first card? It is my understanding is that Miracle had to the help identify the card and preserve the 'miracle topdeck' flavour, neither of which apply here.
4. Yes, that won't be true here. 'Fating' a card will give your opponent useful information and they will the time to act and plan based on it, making it something you don't always want to do. Another reason to support just 'when you draw...', because you don't always want to do it anyway.
The exile version is more complex, less intuitive and distracts from the point of the mechanic. I'd rather get rid of the mechanic if it doesn't work.
Thanks for the feedback.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
1. As I said the zone ruling is probably too complex, but I just wanted to throw it out there. The second ruling should work though and makes sense.
2. As you said, a simple ruling would fix the mulligan triggering if necessary. It's more complex because it does more things actively in the game by a lot. It's not intuitive because it seems weird and it definitely ruins the flavour with the seemingly unnecessary extra step. Exiling the card in any way confuses things. The simpler solution practically and actively is the better solution here even if in technicality in the rules it is more complex.
As you can tell, there is some rules issues to be worked out. But the mechanic should be workable with intuition and player understanding to help ease over complexity in the background.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, it becomes fated, you can't cast it this turn)
to
Fated (When you draw this card, you may reveal it. If you do, you can't cast it this turn)
This way fated is not a quality but becoming fated is an action that can be referenced nonetheless. Thoughts on this vs any other wordings?
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Sphinx of the Immersturm 4RU
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
When Sphinx of the Immersturm enters the battlefield, if you forecast it this game, draw four cards and discard two cards.
Forecast UR -- Reveal ~ from your hand: Draw two cards and discard two cards.
5/5