Hi, I've followed this set for quite a while here and on Remaking Magic, but I've only now read the reminder text for Premonition and it sorta made me cringe. Right now it says (Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay COST and put this card into your library face up beneath the top three cards. As it reaches the top, cast it for free.), when it seems to me that it should be (Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay W and put this card into your library face up beneath the top three cards. When it reaches the top, cast it without paying its mana cost.). I'm sure you have a reason for that and would love to know it, but otherwise it should probably change.
I'm sure you have a reason for that and would love to know it, but otherwise it should probably change.
"when," "whenever," or "at" signify triggered abilities in MTG and that doesn't work for Premonition because you get situations where you use a spell like Divination with the a face-up card 2nd from the top of the library. The intended interaction is that you draw 1 card, the face-up premonition card is cast and then you draw the 2nd card from the divination.
However using a triggered ability means you draw 1 card, a trigger goes on the stack, you draw the face-up premonition card and then the trigger resolves and does nothing....
This means that I need to use a replacement effect which uses either "If" or "As" and of those two options "As" sounds better.
@Circeus.
And? That doesn't mean you should always use shortcuts. Reminder text is always aimed at being close to what the rules text is, deviations are done when they are useful, not when you are just saving a few words. It's a deviation with little benefit.
@Doombringer.
What about the 'for free' part? Should that be 'without paying it's mana cost'?
In previous wordings the wordiness was far more of an issue and the "for free" text was a good enough replacement that it was worth it.
This isn't clearly the case anymore and I've been tossing up if I should change it back for a while now but haven't got around to testing to see if it makes any of the designs too hard to read.
I was showing Dreamscae to new players at FNM this week and I showed them some dreamwalk and Premonition cards.
They liked it but obviously took a bit of wrapping their heads around
I was then going to show them a memoir card and just realized that it was too much. They wouldn't be able to hand yet another weird and complex mechanic.
Memoir has consistently been a good mechanic that however is very difficult to develop and takes up more comprehension complexity than I initially realized.
I'm still worried about tracking complexity with the graveyard but I'll mitigate this by keeping cards like Wild Hunger out of common for the most part as this instant speed flashback can be very annoying for new players who already are tracking the Premonition cards.
Overall this means I'll need a fewmore graveyard hosers at common/uncommon but the core of the set is still well setup to support the mechanic.
Oddly enough, I thought memoir was, out of the three mechanic, easily the one with the least complexity.
Dreamwalk is in no way a mere evasion mechanic: it messes with how players have been hardwired to consider combat math on a massive scale (not to mention how it alters the value of a whole swath of cards that rely on traditional tapped#untapped dynamics: tappers, tapping spells, tap-cost effects...).
Premonition is still significant on-board complexity. One might in fact argue that it has more on-board complexity, in the end, than suspend ever did: removing the counter manipulation forces players to track Premonition spells all in their head and no longer gives the option of just glancing at the card to know when it'll show up again (not to mention the issue of having to fetch it out of the deck when shuffling it and the potential mishaps involved).
Memoir is literally just a now-or-never flashback. If I had to remove or redo one of those, it'd be Premonition by a mile. Dreamwalk is a far more interesting mechanic, but using either of them IMO requires the rest of the block's mechanic to be toned down significantly (see also: Khans of Tarkir and Morph).
Oddly enough, I thought memoir was, out of the three mechanic, easily the one with the least complexity.
Its the one with the least Tracking Complexity which is why I've left it in so long. However when reading it for the first time it has repeatedly been shown (no matter how I reword it) to be confusing to understand. Its Comprehension Complexity is too high which is unacceptable with two mechanics that are already taking a large amount of that space.
Premonition does have both more tracking and comprehension complexity but its gameplay is orders of magnitude better than memoir's.
I've updated the visual spoiler where you can see my recreation of memoir into flashback and many new cards to support it. I'll have an massive detailed changelog in a few days.
Oddly enough, I thought memoir was, out of the three mechanic, easily the one with the least complexity.
Its the one with the least Tracking Complexity which is why I've left it in so long. However when reading it for the first time it has repeatedly been shown (no matter how I reword it) to be confusing to understand. Its Comprehension Complexity is too high which is unacceptable with two mechanics that are already taking a large amount of that space.
I always thought the "is put into a graveyard from anywhere" an odd trigger, and now you point it out, it does kinda cause Memoir to conflate multiple mechanics. When you cast a memoir card, it's essentially got a one-shot replicate; when you discard it, it has madness; and in both cases or if milled, it briefly has flashback!
General:
Premonition has had some minor rewording. It now uses the "converted mana cost" wording and the "just under" wording to line up more with conventional WotC wording.
Memoir has been removed from the card file. The flashback mechanic is now being used instead.
A lot of the flashback cards planned for rare and uncommon have not been finalized until the next revision however.
Lot and lots of minor changes and reworking of common cards.
Detailed Changelog:
AEther Predator: 4/2 3G -> 3/2 2G for curve reasons
I need some common flashback cards with larger mana costs.
With the amount of mill in the set, have you considered reversing some costs i.e.
Depart in Silence
Sorcery (C)
Return target creature to its owner's hand.
Flashback
I'm not sure if there's an inherent development problem with the idea, though.
As for G/B I can't quite tell what the archetype is meant to be, but I'm assuming some sort of graveyard thing? At first blush, the multicolor BG stuff doesn't have much to support it. Some common death triggers or self-sacrificers would probably help. As much fun as Lifedusk Veil might seem to be, it sounds to me like Deadly Wandering would do as good or even better a job in a BG control shell, especially paired with Nocturnal Hunt.
So many people arguing premonition is just trying too hard to be suspend! Obviously, most people in the custom Magic community are familiar with Maro's articles and know suspend is a failure as a mechanic, so trying to come up with an improved version is totally legit, but players outside the community don't necessarily know that. For some of them suspend is a perfectly good mechanic and you're just messing with the rules for no reason. So I think you could've written a short rationale for your design decisions when posting on the main /r/magicTCG sub.
Oh yeh I definitely expect to be writing a large section about the reaction to Premonition.
Had two additional online sealed playtests recently as well as another a paper sealed playtest.
The format is still too fast, especially with white and green having too many efficient low curve creatures.
Blacks commons where a bit of a complete mess and it ended up being nearly unplayable. However the uncommons have continued to be more popular as I weed out ones that don't work.
Currently I'm looking at ways to improve the RW and BG archetypes, not necessarily in power but just in how fun they are to play.
Green/White was also a little too strong especially with Majestic Eleon just being broken, confusing to track and nearly impossible to stop. Reducing green and white's agressive nature should help tune this.
Full changelog:
Cruel Memories: Reversed casting and flashback costs B -> 2B, 2R -> R for curve reasons
Dementia Shrieker: Changed 1BB -> 3B and PT 2/2 -> 2/3. This helps black be less heavy on 3 drops and give it a tool to fight pestermite and other agressive weenies.
Equinox Sage: PT 2/3 -> 1/4 to make white less agressive
Gardener of Wisdom: support for U/ has gotten far getter so this doesn't need to be pushed as changing 2GG -> 3GG
Looking at Cruel Memory it's an odd choice of effect since black, being secondary in haste, does not normally (as far as I understand it, anyway) get to grant it at common, not even on common revival spell. Besides, it's lost all usefulness anyway at that cost. A Damage-dealing effect of some sort or a Nausea/Festergloom variation may be a better choice. Of course if teh set NEEDS a mass haste granter at common (or bad black or flashback card), it's entirely forgivable, but I have some doubts, especially one costing 3 mana (which is REALLY high for a sorcery/instant with that sort of effect).
Pretty sure Ghoulish Nightwalker should target.
Most other changes seem on point or hard to judge without playing the set, though I'm not convinced Sunbloom Chorus isn't still undercosted. It's really BEGGING for an aggro/token build with Haven Watcher: on-curve creatures T1-3, then drop Haven Watcher+Sun bloom, then even more Watchers and sunblooms/travel preps on the following turns.
Wicked cool set. I would love to see some of the stories in this set. I really want to know more about Mindi and how crazy the world must be with the dreams of a child running about.
Also, love the passives the Planeswalkers have. Its interesting and epic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commanders: BUGThe MimeoplasmBUG WUBGAtraxa, Praetor's VoiceWUBG BGhoulcaller GisaB URMizzix of the IzmagnusUR UBSygg,River CutthroatUB RZada, Hedron GrinderR RGUlrich, Krallenhorde AlphaRG
Wicked cool set. I would love to see some of the stories in this set. I really want to know more about Mindi and how crazy the world must be with the dreams of a child running about.
Also, love the passives the Planeswalkers have. Its interesting and epic.
Thanks!
The story is a little bit of a mess at the moment but is due for a large update over the next month or so
I'm currently revamping the RW archetype, changing it from auras to a prowess type deck.
Also I have an exciting uncommon cycle of flashback cards in the works that I'll be showing off soon.
Once again you can see the latest visual spoiler HERE
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
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Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
[DMS] SAMPLE BOOSTER #8
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
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As always feedback is much appreciated.
White Commons Draft #5
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Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
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"when," "whenever," or "at" signify triggered abilities in MTG and that doesn't work for Premonition because you get situations where you use a spell like Divination with the a face-up card 2nd from the top of the library. The intended interaction is that you draw 1 card, the face-up premonition card is cast and then you draw the 2nd card from the divination.
However using a triggered ability means you draw 1 card, a trigger goes on the stack, you draw the face-up premonition card and then the trigger resolves and does nothing....
This means that I need to use a replacement effect which uses either "If" or "As" and of those two options "As" sounds better.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
What about the 'for free' part? Should that be 'without paying it's mana cost'?
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Reminder text is used precisely because it can do those sort of shortcuts.
And? That doesn't mean you should always use shortcuts. Reminder text is always aimed at being close to what the rules text is, deviations are done when they are useful, not when you are just saving a few words. It's a deviation with little benefit.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
In previous wordings the wordiness was far more of an issue and the "for free" text was a good enough replacement that it was worth it.
This isn't clearly the case anymore and I've been tossing up if I should change it back for a while now but haven't got around to testing to see if it makes any of the designs too hard to read.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
I also have a large amount of reworking for the green commons and white commons in the works.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Memoir is out! Flashback is back in!
I was showing Dreamscae to new players at FNM this week and I showed them some dreamwalk and Premonition cards.
They liked it but obviously took a bit of wrapping their heads around
I was then going to show them a memoir card and just realized that it was too much. They wouldn't be able to hand yet another weird and complex mechanic.
Memoir has consistently been a good mechanic that however is very difficult to develop and takes up more comprehension complexity than I initially realized.
I'm still worried about tracking complexity with the graveyard but I'll mitigate this by keeping cards like Wild Hunger out of common for the most part as this instant speed flashback can be very annoying for new players who already are tracking the Premonition cards.
Overall this means I'll need a fewmore graveyard hosers at common/uncommon but the core of the set is still well setup to support the mechanic.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Dreamwalk is in no way a mere evasion mechanic: it messes with how players have been hardwired to consider combat math on a massive scale (not to mention how it alters the value of a whole swath of cards that rely on traditional tapped#untapped dynamics: tappers, tapping spells, tap-cost effects...).
Premonition is still significant on-board complexity. One might in fact argue that it has more on-board complexity, in the end, than suspend ever did: removing the counter manipulation forces players to track Premonition spells all in their head and no longer gives the option of just glancing at the card to know when it'll show up again (not to mention the issue of having to fetch it out of the deck when shuffling it and the potential mishaps involved).
Memoir is literally just a now-or-never flashback. If I had to remove or redo one of those, it'd be Premonition by a mile. Dreamwalk is a far more interesting mechanic, but using either of them IMO requires the rest of the block's mechanic to be toned down significantly (see also: Khans of Tarkir and Morph).
Its the one with the least Tracking Complexity which is why I've left it in so long. However when reading it for the first time it has repeatedly been shown (no matter how I reword it) to be confusing to understand. Its Comprehension Complexity is too high which is unacceptable with two mechanics that are already taking a large amount of that space.
Premonition does have both more tracking and comprehension complexity but its gameplay is orders of magnitude better than memoir's.
I've updated the visual spoiler where you can see my recreation of memoir into flashback and many new cards to support it. I'll have an massive detailed changelog in a few days.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14755602/Hosted Files/CMC Visual Spoiler/visual_spoiler.html
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
I always thought the "is put into a graveyard from anywhere" an odd trigger, and now you point it out, it does kinda cause Memoir to conflate multiple mechanics. When you cast a memoir card, it's essentially got a one-shot replicate; when you discard it, it has madness; and in both cases or if milled, it briefly has flashback!
General:
Premonition has had some minor rewording. It now uses the "converted mana cost" wording and the "just under" wording to line up more with conventional WotC wording.
Memoir has been removed from the card file. The flashback mechanic is now being used instead.
A lot of the flashback cards planned for rare and uncommon have not been finalized until the next revision however.
Lot and lots of minor changes and reworking of common cards.
Detailed Changelog:
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
With the amount of mill in the set, have you considered reversing some costs i.e.
Depart in Silence
Sorcery (C)
Return target creature to its owner's hand.
Flashback
I'm not sure if there's an inherent development problem with the idea, though.
As for G/B I can't quite tell what the archetype is meant to be, but I'm assuming some sort of graveyard thing? At first blush, the multicolor BG stuff doesn't have much to support it. Some common death triggers or self-sacrificers would probably help. As much fun as Lifedusk Veil might seem to be, it sounds to me like Deadly Wandering would do as good or even better a job in a BG control shell, especially paired with Nocturnal Hunt.
I'll be writing an article on the changes soon.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Oh yeh I definitely expect to be writing a large section about the reaction to Premonition.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
I'd highly recommend reading it and letting me know what you think.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
The format is still too fast, especially with white and green having too many efficient low curve creatures.
Blacks commons where a bit of a complete mess and it ended up being nearly unplayable. However the uncommons have continued to be more popular as I weed out ones that don't work.
Currently I'm looking at ways to improve the RW and BG archetypes, not necessarily in power but just in how fun they are to play.
Green/White was also a little too strong especially with Majestic Eleon just being broken, confusing to track and nearly impossible to stop. Reducing green and white's agressive nature should help tune this.
Full changelog:
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Pretty sure Ghoulish Nightwalker should target.
Most other changes seem on point or hard to judge without playing the set, though I'm not convinced Sunbloom Chorus isn't still undercosted. It's really BEGGING for an aggro/token build with Haven Watcher: on-curve creatures T1-3, then drop Haven Watcher+Sun bloom, then even more Watchers and sunblooms/travel preps on the following turns.
Also, love the passives the Planeswalkers have. Its interesting and epic.
BUGThe MimeoplasmBUG
WUBGAtraxa, Praetor's VoiceWUBG
BGhoulcaller GisaB
URMizzix of the IzmagnusUR
UBSygg,River CutthroatUB
RZada, Hedron GrinderR
RGUlrich, Krallenhorde AlphaRG
Thanks!
The story is a little bit of a mess at the moment but is due for a large update over the next month or so
I'm currently revamping the RW archetype, changing it from auras to a prowess type deck.
Also I have an exciting uncommon cycle of flashback cards in the works that I'll be showing off soon.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD