Why does everyone always gravitate towards mana as a plot point? I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it seems to come up unproportionally often.
I don't want to get too off topic here, but I think it's mainly a difference of how mana manifests itself. Instead of allowing wizards to cast spells, mana on this plane allows super heroes to have powers. On another plane, a pyromancer might learn how to cast a fire spell. On this plane, someone gains the superpower to control fire.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
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It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Why does everyone always gravitate towards mana as a plot point?
Because mana is a fundamental force of the multiverse. It doesn't make sense to have a plane where we just ignore it. We must deconstruct!
Does a wizard technically have superpowers?
What about flight? Most superheroes can fly, but are they all going to be U aligned in the set?
EDIT: On most planes, mages are commonplace. What about here? To quote Syndrome: "If everyone's super, no-one is."
I'm not trying to derail the topic. I think these are all legitimate questions that we should think about.
Some related thoughts from my own comic book design;
(I'm more of a DC fan boy so most of my references will be dc related)
For a planeswalker I think it would be fun to have at lease one. My idea is a planes walker who's spark ignited when their plane was destroyed by an outside force. After planes walking around they found the comic book plane and decided to stay and became a hero. Think along the lines of Powergirl or Huntress from the New 52. This way to merge the muti-verse comic trope with magic's muti-verss.
I came up with a few "legendary/planeswalker" boost cards such as;
WWW
Sorcery
Put a 1/1 white creature token with flying into play.
If you control a legendary creature or planes walker put three 1/1 white creature token with flying into play instead.
To help with this I thought of a 30 card mega cycle, with 15 mythic legendary creatures (bigger character such as Prof. X or Joker) and 15 rare legendary creatures (smaller characters/sidekicks like Robin or Harley Quinn). A fun thing would be to explore how good and evil the colors and color pairings can be (such as a W/U villain like Captain Cold or a mono-black Batman like character).
I think everyone on this plane can use mana but most only can do 2-4 helpful spells (making a small flame to use as a lighter or making a small light appear, ect)and the stronger mages and super powered beings are the heroes/villains. (I think this is the normal for most planes right?)
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
@MajoraX: Your questions are valid, but they're not relevant to the current discussion about morph and transform. With this now enormous design team, trying to make any kind of decision becomes impossible since every post tears the collective attention in three new directions. If we ever want to make progress, we need to have a more focused discussion. (Now watch as I hypocritically make a post that's not related to morph/transform in any way). Archester utilized a second thread to hold only creative discussion, maybe that would be a good idea here as well.
I imagine this plane will have just as many super heroes as some planes have mages. Do note that on many planes, mages are not all that commonplace. Most creatures are actually magical beings, conjured creatures, or warriors, not exactly mages. For instance, take a look at Theros, where most people don't have any sort of magic ability at all. But yes, I would expect that on this world, super heroes are an everyday occurrence. (Not every hero is made equal. There may be many heroes that fly, but for some that's where their powers end. Also, flying is in 4 of the 5 colors and is already the most commonly used keyword, so I don't see a problem with it showing up often.)
@5colors: See I hate to be a spoil sport, but this is the kind of suggestion that can wait until after we're done figuring this morph situation out. This is an argument that seems pretty divisive, and will strongly shape the rest of the set. If we don't settle it now, it will probably just clog up the discussion until we do, so it's better that we get it off our plates asap before returning to other important questions like what to do with planeswalkers and legendary creatures.
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It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
On the currant topic I'd also like to add we could add a few transform cards (Such as a Lizard (from Spiderman) creature) though not as a secret identity in the set.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I still think it's too early to be deciding between the two, but you're right that I can't be going off on tangents.
The reason I think it's good to choose now is that both mechanics require a set to be designed around them and they've gotten the most attention so far. If we want to use one, we need to know now so we can plan around it. If we don't want either, than we can stop arguing about which one is better.
On the currant topic I'd also like to add we could add a few transform cards (Such as a Lizard (from Spiderman) creature) though not as a secret identity in the set.
If we end up using transform, this is the way I would prefer to use it.
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It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Haven't read the thread yet, just noting that I would really love some sort of "capture" mechanism. SWCCG had a bounty hunter theme/mechanic that was awesome, and could be accomplished here. I'm thinking of something like Fiend Hunter mechanic.
Also, I think there should be a small "civilian" mechanic, maybe a cycle of civilians.
Edit:
Catching up, I think Morph is fine, as it represents civilians pretty well. (Although they are strong civilians at 2/2, but in a world full of superheroes maybe some of that filtered down to the general populace. In fact, it might make sense if the average person was slightly "stronger" than the norm on other planes.) I get the point of Transform, but what's the point of transforming into their non super-powered version? Unless we have mechanics/themes that punish people for using heroes out in the open, Morph makes more sense.
Regarding not making all superheroes morphers, there are a ton of superheroes that are out in the open in comics. I don't see why we couldn't do the same.
I don't think we should make a "superflight" mechanic. If anything, maybe make it a cycle of unblockable creatures. It doesn't make sense that a bird token could chump a 6/6 demon either, but gameplay > flavor.
Regarding different types of superhero origins, we could have each origin be represented by a mechanic. Magic could scry, Mutant could put a counter on when it enters, Tech gets +1/+1 for each equip attached etc etc.
Moon-E, I agree with your idea about "common" super heroes. Top Ten and Astro City would be good examples.
Morph also works for mutants as well as secret identities. Flipping a morpher could represent the mutant powers "turning on".
Equipment matters makes sense. I see something along the lines of the equipment in ISD, where it was an "extra" bonus if put on a human. We could provide bonuses for being on a specific hero/villain, being on a hero OR villain, being on a legendary creature, etc etc.
I'm not sure if I like the villain mechanics listed. I think most hero/villain powers should overlap. If they both get a unique mechanic, it should be new.
As far as the overall theme, I think we should actually have an asymmetric theme: villains are usually solo, against teams of heroes. Sure, there are one on one battles, but usually it's 1 bad guy vs many good guys. Therefore, we should make the good guys have a "weenie-er" feel overall, whereas the villains are bigger overall. It would also help ensure decks weren't too hero/villainy parasitic.
Yeef's "Champion a token" idea is pretty interesting.
Examples of the "capture" mechanic and cards that might work with it:
Specimen Collector4UG
Creature - Alien (R)
Whenever a creature dealt damage by Specimen Collector dies this turn, you may capture it instead. (To capture another creature, exile that card with this card. Return those cards to the battlefield whenever this card leaves the battlefield.)
Specimen Collector gets +X/+Y, where X is equal to the power and Y is equal to toughness of all creatures captured by it.
6/6
Maximum Security Facility2W
Enchantment (R)
Cards in exile can't return to the battlefield.
Major Trouble1BB
Legendary Creature - Human Villain (U)
Whenever Major Trouble enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature you control. If you do so, capture target creature controlled by an opponent. "Ha! You fell right into my trap!"
2/2
This might be stepping on the color pie a little, and so would need modification. But white gets exiling effects, as does blue in some cases (curse of the swine). Red gets exiling effects if damaged (Anger of the Gods), so mainly it's a black/green color bleed. Green rarely gets exile, but maybe we could only put it on one or two green/black creatures to make up for it.
I just think it's way too flavorful not to put in, as it works for heroes (putting bad guys in jail) and villains (capturing good guys/holding citizens hostage).
I'm not a huge fan, it works better for eldrazi than it does for super villains. I'm also not sure exactly what would be fun about it, it's a downside mechanic that gives your opponent a ton of new options. I'm not adamantly against downside mechanics, but I still don't like this mechanic.
Also we're still talking about morph, so if you all could get your votes in that'd be great. Right now it seems like we're leaning towards morph or neither.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
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It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I voted for Morph. I like the idea. If we don't do Morph, I think it would require some weird parasitic mechanics. It works for all sorts of flavor... Secret identities, developed powers, aliens hiding amongst us, etc etc.
I've filled in some of the votes based on previous comments (Legend said he doesn't want either, Asrama and Iugaru both said they prefer transform over morph). Things are pretty heavily split, which honestly kind of pushes me towards the neither camp. Like I said, I don't think this set needs an alter-ego mechanic.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
hey i know the morph vs. transform thing is the main topic here, but as an idea for your mechanical theme: Overcoming obstacles.
Yeah it's a little vague but other than secret identities, weirdo names, and colored underwear, when i think of superheroes, the first thing that comes to mind is a scene in which a hero (and/or their sidekick) is in a pinch and they're on borrowed time (ie, hanging over a vat of acid). then the hero needs to be quick to act to overcome the sticky situation, and once he's out, he punches the villain, the machine if he has one, and wins. but even that aside, as the hero tracks down the villain, s/he has to jump over a lot of hurdles to get where he needs to be. gameplay-wise, this could translate to abilities activating or triggering based on certain things as they happen, like that one post that had the hero transform if you lost life that turn, but turned back if you didn't. i think that kind of transform would make the most sense for this kind of theme, but morph does have its merits as was said so far
On the villain side, it could be hindering those abilities as they happen, being more reactive than the heroes' abilities... oh, maybe countering triggered/activated abilities in the set could emulate this?
My main problem with transform is that being stuck in "normal mode" isn't part of a super hero fantasy. This kind of thing works with something like werewolves because not being able to directly control the transformation is a huge part of what werewolves are about. For super heroes, normal mode is just a disguise, there's no reason to go back to it or somehow become locked into it once you're already in a fight. Things would be different for something like The Hulk, which has a similar feel to a werewolf, but for most other heroes it just doesn't make sense.
@chowdah: When I think about it, it actually seems like the other way around; villains are the ones that are trying to build to something while the heroes are reactive. I mean, most super hero stories are about the hero trying to foil some evil plan of the villain.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
@chowdah: When I think about it, it actually seems like the other way around; villains are the ones that are trying to build to something while the heroes are reactive. I mean, most super hero stories are about the hero trying to foil some evil plan of the villain.
that's true... I know you said you didn't want heroic, but how about an inverse of it? "Whenever ~ becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls, [effect]"
and @rai, Quests are great, but it seems to imply slower than might be expected of a superhero story, and those are more about exploration, anyway. Traps are definitely great though
Does anyone have anything new to add to the morph/transform discussion? If not, I think we should table both and go on as though we're using neither. We can revisit them if we feel there's something missing or they need to fill a role.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Mark's said many times before that he doesn't see super heroes as being fantasy enough for magic. (Also he considers planeswalkers to be magic's versions of super heroes.)
I don't see a bunch of heroes teaming up against one villain as being super central. Sure there are tons of hero teams, but there are also many stories where one hero is responsible for fighting a menagerie of villains all on their own. If anything, I'd expect a mechanic that encourages heroes to team up to be on heroes themselves.
(EDIT: Remember that the villains in this set need to deliver on player fantasy just as much as the heroes. Playing with super villain cards need to make the player feel like a super villain (setting traps, making schemes, causing chaos, etc.) Even if nemesis delivers on making your opponent feel heroic, it doesn't do much for you. It's a mechanic that seems more geared towards a one-sided challenge deck like the Hydra or the Minotaur Horde)
In general I think it's important to allow for both a "super friends" team style gameplay and a "lone wolf" style hero as well. That's why I suggested exalted (or something similar) to capture the mechanics and flavor of one hero being revered by everyone, acting on their behalf. For the team-up, I think we should give that mechanic to the mutants. Mutants are flavorfully distinct from other heroes and have a lot or precedence in real comics for teaming up, so it seems natural that we could find a way for them to work together.
My original plan for the set (before I opened it to everyone else) went something like this (which is in no means final or even the direction we're going to go in):
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Quick question since we are thinking of having heroes and villains in all colors, does that mean each mechanic will also show up in each color?
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
My guess is that the mechanic distribution will work similar to Theros or any other mono colored set; mechanics show up in every color, but varying frequencies. For instance, there should definitely be black heroes, but I wouldn't be surprised for black to get way more villain cards.
That said, there's nothing necessarily wrong with designing a mechanic that only fits in certain colors, so long as there's enough other stuff to make all the color feel balanced.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I like the idea of tabling the morph/transform discussion, and I think we could even capture the flavor of heroes living among us with slyly winking card names on non-hero cards, a la Quirky Journalist, or Aloof Billionaire or what have you (obviously we wouldn't be so on the nose, but this is for illustration purposes).
As for Nemesis, I feel a little uncomfortable centering our entire set around a downside mechanic that encourages us to print hug bodies to make up for, which requires a level of overcommitment to just keeping your opponent's creatures at bay that's reserved normally for Planeswalkers.
That said, Nemesis is essentially an inversion of an old Pharmalade mechanic called "Hunting," which allows a creature to directly attack other creatures. With a slight flavor tweak, that might be a good fit here to demonstrate the heroes and villains ability to directly engage with one another:
Bloodcrazed Symbiote
Creature - Mutant (U)
3/2
Haste, Engage (This creature may directly attack creatures you don't control. If this creature does, it assigns its combat damage divided between the defending creature and any blocking creatures.)
Bloodcrazed Symbiote attacks a creature each turn if able.
Stoic Protector
Creature - Human Hero (R)
4/4
Flying, Engage (This creature may directly attack creatures you don't control. If this creature does, it assigns its combat damage divided between the defending creature and any blocking creatures.)
Stoic Protector can't attack players with less life than its controller.
Stoic Protector can't attack a creature unless its controller controls more creatures than you.
"Engage" is, again, a placeholder.
Also, have we given any actual thought space to re-using Heroic? It's a solid mechanic that plays well with most of our set's themes, and even though it just got used there's still plenty left to do with it.
This is not a mechanic, so you guys dont need to make special space for it, but I would love to see a lot of 'fight' on some creature cards and 'fight' instants/sorceries since heroes and villains should be punching each other more often than they punch the planeswalker.
That could also open up a 'teamwork' sorcery card where several creatures fight one, and you can assign damage in a way that makes your creatures survive.
I don't feel like creatures attacking creatures makes a whole lot of sense here. Of course we can have a couple of fights, but I don't think we need to suddenly introduce some weird new form of attacking. It's not like this setting calls for it more than any other. Remember this is still Magic.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
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It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
I think a "fastball special" instant will work well enough without a new mechanic.
I would like to see capturing/holding histage as a mechanical theme as I laid out earlier. Wha makes a hero different from a villain? A hero (usually) won't cross a line. If we use a mechanic like that we could play on those themes. Example:
Dark PathB
Instant (U)
Destroy target creature that dealt lethal damage this turn.
Draw a card. Death can change a man, twist him into a mockery of himself.
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I don't want to get too off topic here, but I think it's mainly a difference of how mana manifests itself. Instead of allowing wizards to cast spells, mana on this plane allows super heroes to have powers. On another plane, a pyromancer might learn how to cast a fire spell. On this plane, someone gains the superpower to control fire.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Because mana is a fundamental force of the multiverse. It doesn't make sense to have a plane where we just ignore it. We must deconstruct!
Does a wizard technically have superpowers?
What about flight? Most superheroes can fly, but are they all going to be U aligned in the set?
EDIT: On most planes, mages are commonplace. What about here? To quote Syndrome: "If everyone's super, no-one is."
I'm not trying to derail the topic. I think these are all legitimate questions that we should think about.
(I'm more of a DC fan boy so most of my references will be dc related)
For a planeswalker I think it would be fun to have at lease one. My idea is a planes walker who's spark ignited when their plane was destroyed by an outside force. After planes walking around they found the comic book plane and decided to stay and became a hero. Think along the lines of Powergirl or Huntress from the New 52. This way to merge the muti-verse comic trope with magic's muti-verss.
I came up with a few "legendary/planeswalker" boost cards such as;
WWW
Sorcery
Put a 1/1 white creature token with flying into play.
If you control a legendary creature or planes walker put three 1/1 white creature token with flying into play instead.
To help with this I thought of a 30 card mega cycle, with 15 mythic legendary creatures (bigger character such as Prof. X or Joker) and 15 rare legendary creatures (smaller characters/sidekicks like Robin or Harley Quinn). A fun thing would be to explore how good and evil the colors and color pairings can be (such as a W/U villain like Captain Cold or a mono-black Batman like character).
I think everyone on this plane can use mana but most only can do 2-4 helpful spells (making a small flame to use as a lighter or making a small light appear, ect)and the stronger mages and super powered beings are the heroes/villains. (I think this is the normal for most planes right?)
I also like this idea.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
If so, then we don't want:
- a strong enchantment or Aura theme
- Heroic
I imagine this plane will have just as many super heroes as some planes have mages. Do note that on many planes, mages are not all that commonplace. Most creatures are actually magical beings, conjured creatures, or warriors, not exactly mages. For instance, take a look at Theros, where most people don't have any sort of magic ability at all. But yes, I would expect that on this world, super heroes are an everyday occurrence. (Not every hero is made equal. There may be many heroes that fly, but for some that's where their powers end. Also, flying is in 4 of the 5 colors and is already the most commonly used keyword, so I don't see a problem with it showing up often.)
@5colors: See I hate to be a spoil sport, but this is the kind of suggestion that can wait until after we're done figuring this morph situation out. This is an argument that seems pretty divisive, and will strongly shape the rest of the set. If we don't settle it now, it will probably just clog up the discussion until we do, so it's better that we get it off our plates asap before returning to other important questions like what to do with planeswalkers and legendary creatures.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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I still think it's too early to be deciding between the two, but you're right that I can't be going off on tangents.
Second thread is a good idea.
On the currant topic I'd also like to add we could add a few transform cards (Such as a Lizard (from Spiderman) creature) though not as a secret identity in the set.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The reason I think it's good to choose now is that both mechanics require a set to be designed around them and they've gotten the most attention so far. If we want to use one, we need to know now so we can plan around it. If we don't want either, than we can stop arguing about which one is better.
If we end up using transform, this is the way I would prefer to use it.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Also, I think there should be a small "civilian" mechanic, maybe a cycle of civilians.
Edit:
Catching up, I think Morph is fine, as it represents civilians pretty well. (Although they are strong civilians at 2/2, but in a world full of superheroes maybe some of that filtered down to the general populace. In fact, it might make sense if the average person was slightly "stronger" than the norm on other planes.) I get the point of Transform, but what's the point of transforming into their non super-powered version? Unless we have mechanics/themes that punish people for using heroes out in the open, Morph makes more sense.
Regarding not making all superheroes morphers, there are a ton of superheroes that are out in the open in comics. I don't see why we couldn't do the same.
I don't think we should make a "superflight" mechanic. If anything, maybe make it a cycle of unblockable creatures. It doesn't make sense that a bird token could chump a 6/6 demon either, but gameplay > flavor.
Regarding different types of superhero origins, we could have each origin be represented by a mechanic. Magic could scry, Mutant could put a counter on when it enters, Tech gets +1/+1 for each equip attached etc etc.
Moon-E, I agree with your idea about "common" super heroes. Top Ten and Astro City would be good examples.
Morph also works for mutants as well as secret identities. Flipping a morpher could represent the mutant powers "turning on".
Equipment matters makes sense. I see something along the lines of the equipment in ISD, where it was an "extra" bonus if put on a human. We could provide bonuses for being on a specific hero/villain, being on a hero OR villain, being on a legendary creature, etc etc.
I'm not sure if I like the villain mechanics listed. I think most hero/villain powers should overlap. If they both get a unique mechanic, it should be new.
As far as the overall theme, I think we should actually have an asymmetric theme: villains are usually solo, against teams of heroes. Sure, there are one on one battles, but usually it's 1 bad guy vs many good guys. Therefore, we should make the good guys have a "weenie-er" feel overall, whereas the villains are bigger overall. It would also help ensure decks weren't too hero/villainy parasitic.
Yeef's "Champion a token" idea is pretty interesting.
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Specimen Collector 4UG
Creature - Alien (R)
Whenever a creature dealt damage by Specimen Collector dies this turn, you may capture it instead. (To capture another creature, exile that card with this card. Return those cards to the battlefield whenever this card leaves the battlefield.)
Specimen Collector gets +X/+Y, where X is equal to the power and Y is equal to toughness of all creatures captured by it.
6/6
Maximum Security Facility 2W
Enchantment (R)
Cards in exile can't return to the battlefield.
Major Trouble 1BB
Legendary Creature - Human Villain (U)
Whenever Major Trouble enters the battlefield, you may sacrifice a creature you control. If you do so, capture target creature controlled by an opponent.
"Ha! You fell right into my trap!"
2/2
This might be stepping on the color pie a little, and so would need modification. But white gets exiling effects, as does blue in some cases (curse of the swine). Red gets exiling effects if damaged (Anger of the Gods), so mainly it's a black/green color bleed. Green rarely gets exile, but maybe we could only put it on one or two green/black creatures to make up for it.
I just think it's way too flavorful not to put in, as it works for heroes (putting bad guys in jail) and villains (capturing good guys/holding citizens hostage).
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Also we're still talking about morph, so if you all could get your votes in that'd be great. Right now it seems like we're leaning towards morph or neither.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Yeah it's a little vague but other than secret identities, weirdo names, and colored underwear, when i think of superheroes, the first thing that comes to mind is a scene in which a hero (and/or their sidekick) is in a pinch and they're on borrowed time (ie, hanging over a vat of acid). then the hero needs to be quick to act to overcome the sticky situation, and once he's out, he punches the villain, the machine if he has one, and wins. but even that aside, as the hero tracks down the villain, s/he has to jump over a lot of hurdles to get where he needs to be. gameplay-wise, this could translate to abilities activating or triggering based on certain things as they happen, like that one post that had the hero transform if you lost life that turn, but turned back if you didn't. i think that kind of transform would make the most sense for this kind of theme, but morph does have its merits as was said so far
On the villain side, it could be hindering those abilities as they happen, being more reactive than the heroes' abilities... oh, maybe countering triggered/activated abilities in the set could emulate this?
enchanting Witchstalker with Raised by Wolves
@chowdah: When I think about it, it actually seems like the other way around; villains are the ones that are trying to build to something while the heroes are reactive. I mean, most super hero stories are about the hero trying to foil some evil plan of the villain.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
that's true... I know you said you didn't want heroic, but how about an inverse of it? "Whenever ~ becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls, [effect]"
and @rai, Quests are great, but it seems to imply slower than might be expected of a superhero story, and those are more about exploration, anyway. Traps are definitely great though
enchanting Witchstalker with Raised by Wolves
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I don't see a bunch of heroes teaming up against one villain as being super central. Sure there are tons of hero teams, but there are also many stories where one hero is responsible for fighting a menagerie of villains all on their own. If anything, I'd expect a mechanic that encourages heroes to team up to be on heroes themselves.
(EDIT: Remember that the villains in this set need to deliver on player fantasy just as much as the heroes. Playing with super villain cards need to make the player feel like a super villain (setting traps, making schemes, causing chaos, etc.) Even if nemesis delivers on making your opponent feel heroic, it doesn't do much for you. It's a mechanic that seems more geared towards a one-sided challenge deck like the Hydra or the Minotaur Horde)
In general I think it's important to allow for both a "super friends" team style gameplay and a "lone wolf" style hero as well. That's why I suggested exalted (or something similar) to capture the mechanics and flavor of one hero being revered by everyone, acting on their behalf. For the team-up, I think we should give that mechanic to the mutants. Mutants are flavorfully distinct from other heroes and have a lot or precedence in real comics for teaming up, so it seems natural that we could find a way for them to work together.
My original plan for the set (before I opened it to everyone else) went something like this (which is in no means final or even the direction we're going to go in):
- Exalted-like "one hero" mechanic
- Mutant team-up mechanic
- Equipment matters mechanic
- Traps
- Monstrous
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Quick question since we are thinking of having heroes and villains in all colors, does that mean each mechanic will also show up in each color?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
That said, there's nothing necessarily wrong with designing a mechanic that only fits in certain colors, so long as there's enough other stuff to make all the color feel balanced.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
As for Nemesis, I feel a little uncomfortable centering our entire set around a downside mechanic that encourages us to print hug bodies to make up for, which requires a level of overcommitment to just keeping your opponent's creatures at bay that's reserved normally for Planeswalkers.
That said, Nemesis is essentially an inversion of an old Pharmalade mechanic called "Hunting," which allows a creature to directly attack other creatures. With a slight flavor tweak, that might be a good fit here to demonstrate the heroes and villains ability to directly engage with one another:
Bloodcrazed Symbiote
Creature - Mutant (U)
3/2
Haste, Engage (This creature may directly attack creatures you don't control. If this creature does, it assigns its combat damage divided between the defending creature and any blocking creatures.)
Bloodcrazed Symbiote attacks a creature each turn if able.
Stoic Protector
Creature - Human Hero (R)
4/4
Flying, Engage (This creature may directly attack creatures you don't control. If this creature does, it assigns its combat damage divided between the defending creature and any blocking creatures.)
Stoic Protector can't attack players with less life than its controller.
Stoic Protector can't attack a creature unless its controller controls more creatures than you.
"Engage" is, again, a placeholder.
Also, have we given any actual thought space to re-using Heroic? It's a solid mechanic that plays well with most of our set's themes, and even though it just got used there's still plenty left to do with it.
That could also open up a 'teamwork' sorcery card where several creatures fight one, and you can assign damage in a way that makes your creatures survive.
www.theconnoisseurs.com
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I would like to see capturing/holding histage as a mechanical theme as I laid out earlier. Wha makes a hero different from a villain? A hero (usually) won't cross a line. If we use a mechanic like that we could play on those themes. Example:
Dark Path B
Instant (U)
Destroy target creature that dealt lethal damage this turn.
Draw a card.
Death can change a man, twist him into a mockery of himself.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!