Archester: Frontier of Steam - DESIGN IS DONE! Starting Development - (Post 3821)

  • #102
    Quote from MOON-E

    I think we need to make a minor adjustment to some of the factions. I think (R/G) should be the frontiersmen and (W/G) the elves. The reason is that making (G/R) the "smash stuff" faction makes it too similar to the (W/U)R splinter faction. I like the idea of "artifacts in graveyard" as a theme since it fits with all colors, but I think the focus should shift to sacrificing your own stuff rather than smashing your opponents. It just gives the color combination more identity beyond the "hate" colors.

    I like your changes. If the others also think its a good idea (I'm pretty sure they will), I'll change the OP. Smile

    Quote from MOON-E

    Anyway, the regeneration idea is cool and all, but it doesn't really fit with blue and black.

    I think whatever we come up with, we should definitely make it about color. Right now, 3 of the 5 factions have an artifact theme. We should make sure (U/B)G is focused on color so that we get the message across about what the set is like.

    What if the focus was on land? UB is all about industry, so it abuses lands. Blue augments its lands (Convincing Mirage, Spreading Seas), Black sacrifices its own lands and blows yours up, and green searches for lands to fuel the machine.


    You have a good point about Regeneration not being in blue mana and the focusing on the Color/Colorless theme. How about focusing on how black mana uses all of it's resouces (People, Tech, etc...) to advance it's agenda. We could show this mechanicaly, through sacrificing your own stuff like you said. Then the green mana splinter could have a trigger when a player sacrifices something, maybe the "evolution" mechanic. I have no idea for :symu:.

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  • #103
    I think it's important to create a mechanic that makes sense in UB first, then extend it to G. This is why I like the land idea. Blue has a long history of changing land types, and Black has a long history of destroying lands (though perhaps not as much as red). This seems to make it a good fit. Green has an even longer history of finding/restoring lands.
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    Quote from Matt Tabak »
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  • #104
    Quote from MOON-E
    I think it's important to create a mechanic that makes sense in UB first, then extend it to G. This is why I like the land idea. Blue has a long history of changing land types, and Black has a long history of destroying lands (though perhaps not as much as red). This seems to make it a good fit. Green has an even longer history of finding/restoring lands.


    Agreed. The splinter needs to be a counter to the main mechanic that also works with it to fit Curious' observation.

    I think MOON-E has a good idea here. With the U focus on changing lands, this would be a good place to make basic lands matter by having U changing basic lands to make colorless mana. (And the land theme in G will help support the colored matters/Imperiosaur theme in the (G/W)B group and the ____/? mana matters themes in general.)

    ---

    MOON-E, could you describe your proposed changes to the groups? I don't quite understand what you're getting at and I want to be sure I do before I vote on it. :p
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 5:07:25 PM
  • #105
    Lands feels like a really good theme for now that you say it.

    While blue and black abuse them and corrupt them, green attempts to restore them or just replace them.

    Also, if we have the (R/G) bit be artifacts in graveyards, could the blue theme then be recovering artifacts?
    Last edited by Ninja Caterpie: 12/21/2011 5:18:30 PM
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  • #106
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    Also, if we have the (R/G) bit be artifacts in graveyards, could the blue theme then be recovering artifacts?


    This sounds perfect!
  • #107
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    Lands feels like a really good theme for now that you say it.

    While blue and black abuse them and corrupt them, green attempts to restore them or just replace them.

    Also, if we have the (R/G) bit be artifacts in graveyards, could the blue theme then be recovering artifacts?


    Sounds good to me. Smile

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  • #108
    MOON-E, could you describe your proposed changes to the groups? I don't quite understand what you're getting at and I want to be sure I do before I vote on it. :p


    I guess it's more of just a clarification on the OP, as it's rather vague and blends (R/G) and (G/W).

    Basically, right now it listed (R/G) as the "smash things" sect, but that's already covered by the (W/U)R splinter. Instead, (R/G) should represent the people of the frontier. They're not adverse to the use of technology, but they don't necessarily like it either. Because of this, they end up breaking down their own stuff (sacrificing) for their own benefit, rather than blowing up other people's stuff. This just makes the faction less about countering the others and more of it's own thing. (In this scenario, the Doc Browns are trying to show the people what good can come of technology by restoring it.)

    (G/W) is comprised of the elves that have very little technology at all (hence the "basic lands" theme).

    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    Also, if we have the (R/G) bit be artifacts in graveyards, could the blue theme then be recovering artifacts?


    That was the plan. Wink
    "In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
    This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."


    Comic Book Set
    Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)

    Quote from Matt Tabak »
    It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.


    A Good Place to Start Designing
  • #109
    Quote from MOON-E
    I guess it's more of just a clarification on the OP, as it's rather vague and blends (R/G) and (G/W).

    Basically, right now it listed (R/G) as the "smash things" sect, but that's already covered by the (W/U)R splinter. Instead, (R/G) should represent the people of the frontier. They're not adverse to the use of technology, but they don't necessarily like it either. Because of this, they end up breaking down their own stuff (sacrificing) for their own benefit, rather than blowing up other people's stuff. This just makes the faction less about countering the others and more of it's own thing. (In this scenario, the Doc Browns are trying to show the people what good can come of technology by restoring it.)

    (G/W) is comprised of the elves that have very little technology at all (hence the "basic lands" theme).



    That was the plan. Wink


    Sounds pretty good, I'll get to work on the OP. Smile

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  • #110
    I'm trying to figure out the black splinter - if the (G/W) is creature-based... removal based? !?!?! sacrifice-based?
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  • #111
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I'm trying to figure out the black splinter - if the (G/W) is creature-based... removal based? !?!?! sacrifice-based?


    Actually that's not a bad idea... black mana will do anything to advance it's agenda. How about sacrificing your stuff (Creatures, lands, etc...) for some kind of benefit <-- actually that plays into the :symub:(:symg:) groups as well. Smile

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  • #112
    Quote from MOON-E
    I guess it's more of just a clarification on the OP, as it's rather vague and blends (R/G) and (G/W).

    Basically, right now it listed (R/G) as the "smash things" sect, but that's already covered by the (W/U)R splinter. Instead, (R/G) should represent the people of the frontier. They're not adverse to the use of technology, but they don't necessarily like it either. Because of this, they end up breaking down their own stuff (sacrificing) for their own benefit, rather than blowing up other people's stuff. This just makes the faction less about countering the others and more of it's own thing. (In this scenario, the Doc Browns are trying to show the people what good can come of technology by restoring it.)


    This sounds good to me. Any ideas of how you'd show this mechanically in a way that doesn't tread of the spellshapers' toes (or would it)?

    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I'm trying to figure out the black splinter - if the (G/W) is creature-based... removal based? !?!?! sacrifice-based?


    Well, according to our story, the B splinter is about "zombifying" those who couldn't adapt to the polution with clockwork and gears, so if (G/W) is creature based, I think a removal theme (pollution?) plus a small amount of some sort of "return from graveyard" mechanic would be a good counter to it.
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 6:06:03 PM
  • #113
    This sounds good to me. Any ideas of how you'd show this mechanically in a way that doesn't tread of the spellshapers' toes (or would it)?


    Well, spellshapers discard artifacts. These guys would sacrifice artifacts. I don't think they intersect all that much mechanically.
    "In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
    This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."


    Comic Book Set
    Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)

    Quote from Matt Tabak »
    It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.


    A Good Place to Start Designing
  • #114
    Quote from MOON-E
    Well, spellshapers discard artifacts. These guys would sacrifice artifacts. I don't think they intersect all that much mechanically.


    Well, if (R/B) likes to discard the artifacts, and (R/G) likes to sacrifice them, then R is going to have a lot of cards that don't play well together.

    Maybe there is another way to represent not using artifacts than sacrificing them. After all, if you don't use them, you wouldn't have any to sacrifice. Rewarding you for not having any on the battlefield doesn't seem like a very interesting theme, so maybe we should look in directions away from artifacts.
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 6:10:39 PM
  • #115
    Well, if (R/B) likes to discard the artifacts, and (R/G) likes to sacrifice them, then R is going to have a lot of cards that don't play well together.


    Well either way, red mana is going to want to play artifacts (in its deck, it deosn't necessarily want to cast them), so since the spellshapers are still simi-functional without discarding artifacts they could be used together in the same deck. Right?

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  • #116
    Quote from Raptor1210
    Well either way, red mana is going to want to play artifacts (in its deck), so since the spellshapers are still simi-functional without discarding artifacts they could be used together in the same deck. Right?


    Actually, I was just thinking about it and if the focus is more than they don't care that the artifacts are in the graveyard (queue our "number of artifacts in the graveyard" idea) and less the sacrificing (not without the sacrificing, just make it not the main focus), to give us a mix of discard and sacrifice so that the focus of the (G/R) isn't so much that they are throwing away the artifacts, but that they did and do.

    Perhaps the R "exile X cards in your graveyard" mechanic from Innistrad could make a small comeback here for artifacts in the graveyard.

    Quote from TurboJustice
    Just include cards like Scrapyard Salvo. Maybe they exile artifacts from the grave to 'smelt together' spells and stuff, much like the stitch-zombies of Innistrad for creature?


    This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Make this kind of thing a major focus. (In fact, we could even reprint this card. It's actually fairly setting neutral.)
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 6:25:05 PM
  • #117
    Just include cards like Scrapyard Salvo. Maybe they exile artifacts from the grave to 'smelt together' spells and stuff, much like the stitch-zombies of Innistrad for creature?
  • #118
    Well, if (R/B) likes to discard the artifacts, and (R/G) likes to sacrifice them, then R is going to have a lot of cards that don't play well together.


    Remember that these mechanical themes are actually very small. Look at innistrad; there are only 4 cards with the "exile creatures from your graveyard" theme, but they get the message across quite nicely. Some red decks may not have either one of these themes in them, but if you end up drafting RB or RG, these are the archetypes you'll want to draft.

    Also, like everyone else said, focusing more on the graveyard part makes these cards work well together; now both sacrificing and discarding are enablers to graveyard shenanigans.

    Also, what turbo said with the sticher-mechanics. I love the flavor of that.
    "In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
    This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."


    Comic Book Set
    Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)

    Quote from Matt Tabak »
    It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.


    A Good Place to Start Designing
  • #119
    Quote from MOON-E
    Remember that these mechanical themes are actually very small. Look at innistrad; there are only 4 cards with the "exile creatures from your graveyard" theme, but they get the message across quite nicely. Some red decks may not have either one of these themes in them, but if you end up drafting RB or RG, these are the archetypes you'll want to draft.

    Also, like everyone else said, focusing more on the graveyard part makes these cards work well together; now both sacrificing and discarding are enablers to graveyard shenanigans.

    Also, what turbo said with the sticher-mechanics. I love the flavor of that.


    Yeah, I kinda continued my own thought process to this conclusion.

    I think we've all agreed on the land theme for the (U/B)G group (haven't we?), so the OP can probably be updated with that.

    And, now that we have basic idea for each of the color groups, should we maybe think of the colorless cards that are most likely going to be present? How are we going to do the clockwork creatures? The current clockwork designs are very clunky and I think it'd be in our best bet to redesign them, top down. Does anybody else feel this way?
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 7:03:28 PM
  • #120
    I've updated the OP. I wasn't sure how to word the R/G mana mechanics section though. Slant


    And, now that we have basic idea for each of the color groups, should we maybe think of the colorless cards that are most likely going to be present? How are we going to do the clockwork creatures? The current clockwork designs are very clunky and I think it'd be in our best bet to redesign them, top down. Does anybody else feel this way?

    We can look into redesigning them if anyone would like to. Personally I always thought the Clockwork Vorrac/Clockwork Hydra version of the mechanic was pretty flavorful (:symtap: = Winding up the creature). The other versions such as Clockwork Condor and Clockwork Avian weren't so good though. Slant I'd prefer we go the Clockwork Vorrac route rather than either of the other two versions.

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  • #121
    Clockwork Soldier 1
    Creature - Construct Soldier
    Clockwork Soldier enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. Whenever it attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it.
    T,T,T,T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Soldier.
    0/1
    Last edited by Ninja Caterpie: 12/21/2011 8:37:04 PM
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  • #122
    Quote from Raptor1210
    We can look into redesigning them if anyone would like to. Personally I always thought the Clockwork Vorrac/Clockwork Hydra version of the mechanic was pretty flavorful (:symtap: = Winding up the creature). The other versions such as Clockwork Condor and Clockwork Avian weren't so good though. Slant I'd prefer we go the Clockwork Vorrac route rather than either of the other two versions.


    My problem with them isn't the flavor, but the fact that they're all really wordy. (I'm pretty sure I read in an article on the Mothership long ago that this is Wizards' view on them as well, but a quick search of the site didn't help much, so I can't prove it. :p) I prefer the latter of the two as well though, but I feel we should expand upon the mechanic in some way, otherwise it'll feel like more of the same old stuff.

    My thought: Make Clockwork a creature type. This would be a simple change which will open up a lot of design space. All the current Clockworks can be errata'd to be "Artifact Creature - Clockwork Whatever," it'll help tie them together, and it will allow us to make cards that interact with Clockwork creatures, such as a cool Clockwork lord, among others.
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 8:44:44 PM
  • #123
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    Clockwork Soldier 1
    Creature - Construct Soldier
    Clockwork Soldier enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. Whenever it attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it.
    T,T,T,T: Put a +1/+1 counter on Clockwork Soldier.
    0/1

    I see what you did there. :p Well played.

    My problem with them isn't the flavor, but the fact that they're all really wordy. (I'm pretty sure I read in an article on the Mothership long ago that this is Wizards' view on them as well, but a quick search of the site didn't help much, so I can't prove it. :p) I prefer the latter of the two as well though, but I feel we should expand upon the mechanic in some way, otherwise it'll feel like more of the same old stuff.

    My thought: Make Clockwork a creature type. This would be a simple change which will open up a lot of design space. All the current Clockworks can be errata'd to be "Artifact Creature - Clockwork Whatever," it'll help tie them together, and it will allow us to make cards that interact with Clockwork creatures, such as a cool Clockwork lord, among others.


    If we make "Clockwork" a type, would the type have any mechanics attached to it? Would the ":symtap:: Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature." ability be implied with the type?

    Wait a second... I just thought of something, maybe we could keyword "Clockwork N". It could mean...

    Clockwork N (This creature enters the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters on it and it has ":symtap:: Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.").

    OR

    Clockwork N (This creature enters the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters on it and it has "Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.")

    OR both.

    Thoughts?

    Also I really like the "Clockwork Lord" idea and if you can find that article on the mothership I'd love to read it.
    Last edited by Raptor1210: 12/21/2011 9:18:00 PM

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  • #124
    I prefer the normal Clockwork ability. Being able to shorten it to a mechanic seems interesting, but I dunno if we'll have enough clockwork dudes to make it worth it.
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  • #125
    Quote from Raptor1210
    If we make "Clockwork" a type, would the type have any mechanics attached to it? Would the ":symtap:: Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature." ability be implied with the type?

    Wait a second... I just thought of something, maybe we could keyword "Clockwork N". It could mean...

    Clockwork N (This creature enters the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters on it and it has ":symtap:: Put a +1/+1 counter on this creature.").

    OR

    Clockwork N (This creature enters the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters on it and it has "Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.")

    OR both.

    Thoughts?

    Also I really like the "Clockwork Lord" idea and if you can find that article on the mothership I'd love to read it.


    Types with rules baggage is a big no-no for me (and everyone else, I think), so a keyword might be nice to make Clockworks at higher rarities less wordy. I like this one:

    Clockwork N (This creature enters the battlefield with N +1/+1 counters on it. Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.)

    By not making the tap ability standard, we leave ourselves the option of making a really flavorful lord that doesn't seem redundant. (See where I'm going with this? ;))

    Also, there's no reason we can't have a subtype and a keyword. There's already a precedent for creatures that have a word appearing as a keyword and in the name of every creature with that keyword (changelings), and it'd be better to have things that just refer to clockwork creatures, rather than "creatures with clockwork" as we want to include all the old Clockwork creatures with any reference.

    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I prefer the normal Clockwork ability. Being able to shorten it to a mechanic seems interesting, but I dunno if we'll have enough clockwork dudes to make it worth it.


    A handful in each set of the block is really all that's needed. Shards block had a grand total of 10 Domain cards and it was a major theme of one of the sets. And, like Domain, Clockwork N is a keyword that can be retroactively errata'd onto older Clockworks (the Mirrodin and Time Spiral ones, at least).
    Last edited by Basic Land Collector: 12/21/2011 9:38:44 PM
  • #126
    Ok, I think we're on to something, look at this...

    Clockwork Drake 4 mana
    Artifact Creature - Clockwork Drake [Common]
    Flying
    Clockwork 3 (This creature enters the battlefield with three +1/+1 counters on it. Whenever this creature attacks or blocks, remove a +1/+1 counter from it at end of combat.)
    0/0

    ^---- That looks pretty awesome, if I do say so myself. Grin
    Last edited by Raptor1210: 12/21/2011 9:49:03 PM

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    The World of Pokemon RPG has been rebooted. Come over and check it out. Psyshiro Duckezawa

    Set Creation Projects: We Can Do ItArchester: Frontier of Steam Yar! Come over and check out our AWESOME Steampunk set.

    (W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)(U/R)(R/W)(W/U)
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