Chains of Debt 3U
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
You control enchanted creature.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player may put the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. If he or she does, that player gains control of Chains of Debt.
So, Rule 303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
But the creature is already attached to the Aura, so do you just get the Aura or both it and the creature?
I'm not sure why the rule you quote is relevant, since it appears that Chains of Debt never leaves the battlefield as part of the upkeep trigger. Does gaining control of a Verdurous Gearhulk let you distribute +1/+1 counters?
The upkeep trigger does indeed cause a player who gains control of the Aura to gain control of the enchanted creature.
Just trying to do my due diligence with checking for rules. If for some reason you got control of the aura alone, I was wondering what would happen to just the aura. But since you get the creature with the aura it makes that since it never leaves the battlefield you wouldn't be able to attach it to something else.
Now, the ultimate question is, what rules say that gaining control of the aura say you get the creature as well? I know gaining control of a creature with an aura attached to it, you get that creature and the aura stays attached. You don't control the aura and can't activate any of its abilities, if any, but where in the rules does it say that you get the creature as well?
Would it be a better design for you to just gain control of the creature, since the aura stays attached to it?
Thoughts?
As you may know, the interaction of continuous effects in Magic is determined by a rather complex layer system. The only layer that is relevant in this situation is the control-changing layer (layer 2):
613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1b. Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
...
613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
Suppose Bob plays this Aura on Alice's creature. The Aura's "you control enchanted creature" ability generates a continuous effect that applies in layer 2. As a result, Bob gains control of Alice's creature. (This is standard behavior, no problems here.)
Then suppose it's Carol's upkeep. Carol decides to mill herself for 3 during her upkeep, so she gains control of the Aura. This in itself is a control-changing effect, and since it occurs after the effect that caused Bob to gain control of Alice's creature, it would logically follow that the effect where Bob gains control of Alice's creature is applied first, and the effect where Carol gains control of the Aura is applied second, right? This would mean that Bob ultimately ends up still controlling the creature, and the Aura ends up being controlled by whoever last milled themselves for 3, right?
Fortunately, this isn't the case, because there is another rules entry that is being forgotten here:
613.7. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.
613.7a. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
From this, we can see that the "you control enchanted creature" continuous effect depends on the most recent control-changing effect as caused by the upkeep trigger. Since the upkeep trigger's control-changing effect (a) is applied in the same layer as the "you control enchanted creature" control-changing effect; (b) would change what happens to the creature that the "you control enchanted creature" control-changing effect applies to; and (c) is not a characteristic-defining ability like the "you control enchanted creature" effect, the upkeep trigger's control-changing effect will be applied first before the "you control enchanted creature" effect, regardless of which one has the earlier timestamp.
So, in the above example, what ends up happening is that Carol will end up controlling both the Aura and the creature that it enchants, rather than Bob controlling the creature and Carol controlling the Aura.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
You control enchanted creature.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player may put the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. If he or she does, that player gains control of Chains of Debt.
So, Rule 303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
But the creature is already attached to the Aura, so do you just get the Aura or both it and the creature?
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
The upkeep trigger does indeed cause a player who gains control of the Aura to gain control of the enchanted creature.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Now, the ultimate question is, what rules say that gaining control of the aura say you get the creature as well? I know gaining control of a creature with an aura attached to it, you get that creature and the aura stays attached. You don't control the aura and can't activate any of its abilities, if any, but where in the rules does it say that you get the creature as well?
Would it be a better design for you to just gain control of the creature, since the aura stays attached to it?
Thoughts?
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Suppose Bob plays this Aura on Alice's creature. The Aura's "you control enchanted creature" ability generates a continuous effect that applies in layer 2. As a result, Bob gains control of Alice's creature. (This is standard behavior, no problems here.)
Then suppose it's Carol's upkeep. Carol decides to mill herself for 3 during her upkeep, so she gains control of the Aura. This in itself is a control-changing effect, and since it occurs after the effect that caused Bob to gain control of Alice's creature, it would logically follow that the effect where Bob gains control of Alice's creature is applied first, and the effect where Carol gains control of the Aura is applied second, right? This would mean that Bob ultimately ends up still controlling the creature, and the Aura ends up being controlled by whoever last milled themselves for 3, right?
Fortunately, this isn't the case, because there is another rules entry that is being forgotten here:
From this, we can see that the "you control enchanted creature" continuous effect depends on the most recent control-changing effect as caused by the upkeep trigger. Since the upkeep trigger's control-changing effect (a) is applied in the same layer as the "you control enchanted creature" control-changing effect; (b) would change what happens to the creature that the "you control enchanted creature" control-changing effect applies to; and (c) is not a characteristic-defining ability like the "you control enchanted creature" effect, the upkeep trigger's control-changing effect will be applied first before the "you control enchanted creature" effect, regardless of which one has the earlier timestamp.
So, in the above example, what ends up happening is that Carol will end up controlling both the Aura and the creature that it enchants, rather than Bob controlling the creature and Carol controlling the Aura.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall