Greetings!
Infiltrate is an old ability word that I'm bringing back.
Here's an example.
Adaptive Brambleback 3G
Creature - Beast (C) Infiltrate — Whenever Adaptive Brambleback attacks, if it isn’t blocked, you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/3
Aedon Ambusher 3W
Creature - Dwarf Warrior (C)
First Strike
Ambush 1WW (1WW: Put this creature from your hand onto the battlefield blocking target creature attacking you.)
2/3
Now, here is the question.
What happens if my opponent attacks me with a creature with Infiltrate, and I choose not to block it, or can't block it and instead, I activate Ambush instead?
Does Infiltrate go on the stack, but doesn't resolve since it becomes blocked? The creature with Infiltrate doesn't see itself being blocked, but since it becomes blocked before the end of the combat phase, it doesn't get the trigger. Right?
Curtain of Light's rulings say that "An attacking unblocked creature exists from the time the defending player chooses not to block that creature until the combat phase ends."
Any help with this is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
A creature with Infiltrate will trigger the moment you enter the declare blockers step and it isn't declared as blocked. With the way the ability is worded it will get its counter even if it becomes blocked while its trigger is on the stack. You need it to be an intervening If, if you don't want to get counters for being blocked this way. Its really awkward but somthing like this is needed
Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
This way it attacking sets up a delayed trigger that will trigger during the declare blockers step and then if it is unblocked it will trigger and if it still isn't blocked when it resolves it will get its counter.
You need it to be an intervening If, if you don't want to get counters for being blocked this way. Its really awkward but somthing like this is needed
Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
This way it attacking sets up a delayed trigger that will trigger during the declare blockers step and then if it is unblocked it will trigger and if it still isn't blocked when it resolves it will get its counter.
Due to the difference in timing for attack declarations and block declarations, even an intervening-"if" clause won't do the trick. An ability that's worded "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked, ..." will always have the "if" condition satisfied, since it's impossible for any creature to be blocked before or during the process of declaring attackers.
An even more awkward wording would be needed:
"Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if it isn't blocked, ..."
...but that obviously looks silly, so I wouldn't go for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I'm pretty sure the interventing if works as "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked,..."
Infiltrate will trigger, and if they activate Ambush in response, you won't get the ability, because it's an intervening if, it checks on trigger and on resolution.
If not, what about something more like this?
Whenever ~ attacks, at the end of combat, if it wasn't blocked...
As Thought Criminal points out, this effectively means that creature will always meet its trigger condition unless you have an Ambush creature. Maybe that is what you are going for which means it would work just fine. It does seem like it would cause confusion since most players are going to read it as not triggering until Declare Blockers (because how do you block it if you haven't gotten to that step yet) when in reality they will almost never get the opportunity to stop the trigger from resolving.
For reference, here is what is actually happening:
Player 1 declares the move to the Beginning of Combat and passes priority.
Player 2 passes priority.
The game moves to the Declare Attackers step.
Plyer A attacks with an "Infiltrate" creature.
During Declare Attackers, its ability triggers.
Player B Activates Ambush to block it.
Trigger attempts to resolve, but sees the trigger condition is no longer met, so it does nothing.
Both players pass priority.
Game moves to the Declare Blockers step.
Player A passes priority.
Player B doesn't declare any blockers (Ambush creature is already blocking) so s/he passes priority.
Game moves on and eventually gets to the Combat Damage and End of Combat steps.
The potential problem is the step where Player B activates Ambush. What happens if they don't happen to have an Ambush creature? The Infiltrate trigger will resolve without Player B actually being able to declare blockers in the Declare Blockers step since the trigger happens in Declare Attackers. It effectively makes the ability an "when ~ attacks" rather than "when ~ attacks and isn't blocked" making it much more powerful and having a higher chance of resolving.
Your thought about doing it at the end of combat could work, but then you lose out on the benefit of that +1/+1 counter for that attack step. Since it would have already dealt its damage, the additional +1/+1 counter won't affect combat until next turn. Even then, the wording becomes somewhat clunky
Thanks for that Wizard, however Ambush says 'Activate this ability only once after blockers are declared'. Just like Trap Runner or Curtain of Light. There's also Dazzling Beauty.
Would this change the interaction of the two abilities?
"Whenever CARDNAME attacks" triggers during the declare attackers step.
"Whenever CARDNAME attacks and isn't blocked" triggers durring the declare blockers step.
Once either ability triggers, there is nothing that will stop the ability from resolving (obviously aside from countering the ability or (if targeted) fizzling the ability).
The only way to stop it would be the version Thought Criminal posted. Or if you wanted to go to the extreme and ensure that something like Hollowhenge Spirit could also stop it:
"Whenever CARDNAME attacks and isn't blocked, if it's attacking and unblocked, [effect]"
509.5g An ability that reads “Whenever [this creature] attacks and isn’t blocked, . . .” triggers if no creatures are declared as blockers for that creature. It will trigger even if the creature was never declared as an attacker (for example, if it entered the battlefield attacking). It won’t trigger if the attacking creature is blocked and then all its blockers are removed from combat.
509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.
509.5g An ability that reads “Whenever [this creature] attacks and isn’t blocked, . . .” triggers if no creatures are declared as blockers for that creature. It will trigger even if the creature was never declared as an attacker (for example, if it entered the battlefield attacking). It won’t trigger if the attacking creature is blocked and then all its blockers are removed from combat.
509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.
That's from the comprehensive rules.
Keep in mind that the version with the trigger condition "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked" (without the intervening-"if" clause) will still resolve to its full effect (assuming no other effects), since there is no possible way for an effect to say that a creature becomes blocked after the declaration of blockers but before the ability is put onto the stack.
If infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, ..." and blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with infiltrate, the infiltrate ability will trigger and be put onto the stack. If ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature with infiltrate will become blocked by the creature with ambush. But the infiltrate ability is already on the stack, and so once it resolves, it will continue to resolve fully. The infiltrate effect will occur as normal.
If infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, ... if ~ isn't blocked" and blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with infiltrate, the infiltrate ability will trigger and be put onto the stack. If ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature will become blocked by the creature with ambush. The infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point, and so once it resolves, it will continue to resolve fully. However, since the effect of infiltrate specifically only occurs if the creature with infiltrate isn't blocked, the effect of the ability won't occur, even though the ability itself resolves.
If infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if ~ isn't blocked" and blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with infiltrate, the infiltrate ability will still trigger at this point, and be put onto the stack. This is because at this point, the trigger condition is still true. If ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature will become blocked by the creature with ambush. The infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point. However, when it attempts to resolve, it will check that its intervening-"if" clause condition is false, so it will be removed from the stack entirely and won't resolve.
The same goes for other phrasings of the "if" condition, such as "attacking and unblocked".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Could there possibly be any sort of wording that could work better beyond "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if ~ isn't blocked"?
I was thinking about this: "Whenever ~ attacks and if it doesn't become blocked,"
So that way cards like Flash Foliage that put out a creature that has an attacking creature become blocked, just like how Ambush is worded here, would that work?
The problem with that wording is that "whenever ~ attacks" is checked whenever attackers are declared, so it will always trigger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you knew anything about the lore you'd see that they were clearly hinting that the madness on Innistrad was caused by Uncle Istvan wearing Urza's Power Armor ... tainted with Phrexyian Oil"
Graham from Loading Ready Run
That's not how Infiltrate is worded though xecel. It's "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked,"
An ability that triggers when something “attacks and isn’t blocked” triggers in the declare blockers step after blockers are declared if (1) that creature is attacking and (2) no creatures are declared to block it. It will trigger even if that creature was put onto the battlefield attacking rather than having been declared as an attacker in the declare attackers step.
Sorry this will be a bit pedantic: The wording "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked," is different from the wording "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked,", the first would trigger on attack because it is of the form trigger If condition, but the second wording only has one trigger which is specifically said to trigger during the declare blockers phase by the Comprehensive Rules (CR509.5). So the wording "Whenever ~ attacks and if it doesn't become blocked," which is what I was referring to (sorry for not being clear on that), is also in the form of trigger If condition, and that condition is whenever a creature attacks, so it triggers on attacks. That is the tricky bit of the wording you are trying to use: the and isn't blocked part is what makes it trigger during the declare blocker step, but you need another clause to make sure it is checked upon resolution, like you want it to be, which is why "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if it isn't blocked" might be the best wording even though "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if it doesn't become blocked" would be identical and might read better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you knew anything about the lore you'd see that they were clearly hinting that the madness on Innistrad was caused by Uncle Istvan wearing Urza's Power Armor ... tainted with Phrexyian Oil"
Graham from Loading Ready Run
Infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked, [effect or ability".
If blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with Infiltrate, the Infiltrate ability will trigger at this point, and be put onto the stack. This is because at this point, the trigger condition is still true. If any ability occurs that causes the creature to become blocked, such as a creature with Ambush or Curtain of Light, the Infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point. However, when it attempts to resolve, it will check that its intervening-"if" clause condition is false, so it will be removed from the stack entirely and won't resolve.
So yes, it would still trigger, but it wouldn't resolve.
I understand that that is what you want to do, but under the current ruling whenever ~ attacks triggers during the declare attackers phase, which means the ability doesn't do what you want it to do.
this rule might help make my point,
"603.4. A triggered ability may read“When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].”When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause”rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition."
Bold by me for emphasis.
The point is that the trigger "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked" will check whenever a creature attacks if it is blocked, and since blockers have not been declared the creature will not be blocked.
Contrast with "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked" Which is the wording from Thalakos deceiver (in the oracle text), that is one trigger, that checks if the creature is attacking and if it isn't blocked, and triggers in the declare blockers step, because it doesn't have the if.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you knew anything about the lore you'd see that they were clearly hinting that the madness on Innistrad was caused by Uncle Istvan wearing Urza's Power Armor ... tainted with Phrexyian Oil"
Graham from Loading Ready Run
I never said the ability wouldn't trigger. It just won't resolve. If you read the rules you just quoted it tells you why this does work.
If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.
This is an intervening 'if' ability. The 'if' immediately follows the trigger condition. "Whenever ~ attacks," -- Trigger. "if it isn't blocked" -- intervening if. An attacking unblocked creature exists from the time the defending player chooses not to block that creature until the combat phase ends. So if the creature becomes blocked before the end of the combat phase, but after blockers are declared, the ability won't resolve.
As Thought Criminal pointed out, an alternate wording would be "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if it isn't blocked, ..." This is ugly and "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked," accomplishes the same thing without the terrible wording.
Okay, your right it doesn't trigger, but then the keyword doesn't do anything. Because it will try to trigger during the declare attackers step, but it doesn't because you're right the crature isn't unblocked, at the time. Then nothing happens.
The issue is that the triggered ability won't trigger during the declare blockers step, which is when you want it to trigger, which is why the wording doesn't work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you knew anything about the lore you'd see that they were clearly hinting that the madness on Innistrad was caused by Uncle Istvan wearing Urza's Power Armor ... tainted with Phrexyian Oil"
Graham from Loading Ready Run
This is an intervening 'if' ability. The 'if' immediately follows the trigger condition. "Whenever ~ attacks," -- Trigger. "if it isn't blocked" -- intervening if. An attacking unblocked creature exists from the time the defending player chooses not to block that creature until the combat phase ends. So if the creature becomes blocked before the end of the combat phase, but after blockers are declared, the ability won't resolve.
No, that is still not right. You need to think about the trigger specifically, not all of combat. The trigger only cares about whether the creature is blocked when the trigger resolves. Not what happens later. The trigger checks the condition again during the Declare Attackers step (since that is when it is triggering based on your suggested wording). It isn't going to wait around checking to see if the creature becomes blocked at some point during combat.
That's still the problem. You are trying to "interfere" with the trigger condition so the "if" clause becomes false. However, your wording of Ambush (and Flash Foliage for that matter) don't let you stop the trigger. Both only let you activate the ability after blockers have been declared. This trigger is happening, and resolving, in the Declare Attackers step so you can't activate Ambush yet. Were you suggesting the idea of rewording Ambush to allow it to happen in the Declare Attackers step? This introduces other problems with the ability.
Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked, [effect or ability]
Ambush (updated wording)
Ambush [cost] ([cost]: Put this creature from your hand onto the battlefield blocking target creature attacking you.)
Infiltrate is a triggered ability with an intervening if, so it checks on both trigger and resolution. So yes, it will 'wait around to check to see if the creature becomes blocked at some point during combat.'
Therefore you can use an effect such as Flash Foliage or Curtain of Light or Trap Runner or this Ambush effect to stop the "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked" ability from resolving.
I'll give you a great example of another creature with an intervening 'if' clause that waits till the end step for a trigger in Spiny Starfish. At the beginning of each end step, -- Trigger -- if Spiny Starfish regenerated this turn, -- Intervening 'if' clause -- create a 0/1 blue Starfish creature token for each time it regenerated this turn.
Nothing is stopping the trigger from activating, it's stopping it from resolving. I believe the only way to stop the ability from even triggering would be to untap it and remove it from combat.
It's very situational in how it works. In a situation where blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with Infiltrate, the Infiltrate ability will still trigger at this point, and be put onto the stack. This is because at this point, the trigger condition is still true. If Ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature will become blocked by the creature with Ambush. The Infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point. However, when it attempts to resolve, it will check that its intervening-"if" clause condition is false, so it will be removed from the stack entirely and won't resolve.
I think you misunderstood. Yes, it will wait around to see if something becomes blocked, but only for the duration of the trigger; not all of combat. Triggers happen, and resolve, in the same step, so there is nothing for it to wait around for, which is what we are trying to get across. Yes, you can put a creature onto the battlefield blocking it in the middle of the trigger, but since your current wording of "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked, [effect or ability]" is still triggering during the Declare Attackers step, Flash Foliage can't be cast in response to the trigger. Your current wording of Ambush lets it be cast here, so maybe you are getting closer but again, doing it before Blockers are declared introduces other problems which is why Flash Foliage makes you wait until Blockers have been declared.
Spiny Starfish isn't a great example. I think there may be some confusion on "interviening if" in general, so let's break down the example of Spiny Starfish:
This trigger happens at the End Step because the card specifically says to trigger in the end step. There is nothing on your card that says to trigger in any case other than when it is declared as an attacker so that is when it will happen. Spiny Starfish is not "waiting around" to see what happens in the future. Instead, it is looking back into the past to see if it should trigger. If the creature has not regenerated at all (meaning it was never dealt lethal damage or nothing tried to destroy it after the Regeneration ability resolved) the trigger won't be put onto the stack at all. This is one of the defining features of an "intervening if" clause. They don' automatically go onto the stack. If, however, the creature has regenerated, the trigger will go on the stack and then resolve. You can't "unregenerate" a creature so there is nothing here that can interrupt the if clause.
To mimic the way the Starfish trigger works, you would need to re-word Infiltrate to something like this:
"At the end of combat, if this creature was not blocked this turn, [do something]". It does take away the ability to just pump it up for Combat Damage, but it illustrates the key difference between your example of the Starfish and your Inflitrate mechanic.
Adaptive Brambleback 3G
Creature - Beast (C) Infiltrate — At the end of combat, if Adaptive Brambleback was not blocked this turn, you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/3
I might add in "...and deals 1 damage to defending player". It gives you the additional damage the counter would have given (since adding a counter after the fact doesn't do anything for that combat and it is kind of counter-intuitive). Or, you could just do it at the End Step outside of Combat so there is no confusion about adding a counter in Combat that doesn't affect anything.
Even with that being said I think it is fine and I think it seems to better allow for interaction between Infiltrate and Ambush the way you want.
Player A: "Is Infiltrate supposed to trigger if you didn't attack with the creature (and therefore it wasn't blocked)?"
Me: "Did the creature attack?"
Player A: "No."
Me: "So it didn't enter combat."
Player A: "But it still wasn't blocked."
Me: "A creature can only be blocked when it's in combat, right?"
Player A: "Then shouldn't it say 'At the end of combat, if ~ attacked was not blocked this turn,'
Do it need to be so explicitly tied to being blocked or unblocked? How about trying out "Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player or planeswalker, [effect]." ? That is an ability that players are already comfortable with and other than trample and Lone Wolf-like abilities (or maybe any 0 power creatures like Guiltfeeder), that has the same larger-scale desired mechanical interactions between the two abilities.
Infiltrate is an old ability word that I'm bringing back.
Here's an example.
Adaptive Brambleback 3G
Creature - Beast (C)
Infiltrate — Whenever Adaptive Brambleback attacks, if it isn’t blocked, you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/3
Ambush is a fairly complex ability based on Trap Runner and Curtain of Light.
Here's an example.
Aedon Ambusher 3W
Creature - Dwarf Warrior (C)
First Strike
Ambush 1WW (1WW: Put this creature from your hand onto the battlefield blocking target creature attacking you.)
2/3
Now, here is the question.
What happens if my opponent attacks me with a creature with Infiltrate, and I choose not to block it, or can't block it and instead, I activate Ambush instead?
Does Infiltrate go on the stack, but doesn't resolve since it becomes blocked? The creature with Infiltrate doesn't see itself being blocked, but since it becomes blocked before the end of the combat phase, it doesn't get the trigger. Right?
Curtain of Light's rulings say that "An attacking unblocked creature exists from the time the defending player chooses not to block that creature until the combat phase ends."
Any help with this is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
This way it attacking sets up a delayed trigger that will trigger during the declare blockers step and then if it is unblocked it will trigger and if it still isn't blocked when it resolves it will get its counter.
Due to the difference in timing for attack declarations and block declarations, even an intervening-"if" clause won't do the trick. An ability that's worded "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked, ..." will always have the "if" condition satisfied, since it's impossible for any creature to be blocked before or during the process of declaring attackers.
An even more awkward wording would be needed:
"Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if it isn't blocked, ..."
...but that obviously looks silly, so I wouldn't go for it.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Infiltrate will trigger, and if they activate Ambush in response, you won't get the ability, because it's an intervening if, it checks on trigger and on resolution.
If not, what about something more like this?
Whenever ~ attacks, at the end of combat, if it wasn't blocked...
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
For reference, here is what is actually happening:
The potential problem is the step where Player B activates Ambush. What happens if they don't happen to have an Ambush creature? The Infiltrate trigger will resolve without Player B actually being able to declare blockers in the Declare Blockers step since the trigger happens in Declare Attackers. It effectively makes the ability an "when ~ attacks" rather than "when ~ attacks and isn't blocked" making it much more powerful and having a higher chance of resolving.
Your thought about doing it at the end of combat could work, but then you lose out on the benefit of that +1/+1 counter for that attack step. Since it would have already dealt its damage, the additional +1/+1 counter won't affect combat until next turn. Even then, the wording becomes somewhat clunky
Would this change the interaction of the two abilities?
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
"Whenever CARDNAME attacks and isn't blocked" triggers durring the declare blockers step.
Once either ability triggers, there is nothing that will stop the ability from resolving (obviously aside from countering the ability or (if targeted) fizzling the ability).
The only way to stop it would be the version Thought Criminal posted. Or if you wanted to go to the extreme and ensure that something like Hollowhenge Spirit could also stop it:
"Whenever CARDNAME attacks and isn't blocked, if it's attacking and unblocked, [effect]"
509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.
That's from the comprehensive rules.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Keep in mind that the version with the trigger condition "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked" (without the intervening-"if" clause) will still resolve to its full effect (assuming no other effects), since there is no possible way for an effect to say that a creature becomes blocked after the declaration of blockers but before the ability is put onto the stack.
If infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, ..." and blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with infiltrate, the infiltrate ability will trigger and be put onto the stack. If ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature with infiltrate will become blocked by the creature with ambush. But the infiltrate ability is already on the stack, and so once it resolves, it will continue to resolve fully. The infiltrate effect will occur as normal.
If infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, ... if ~ isn't blocked" and blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with infiltrate, the infiltrate ability will trigger and be put onto the stack. If ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature will become blocked by the creature with ambush. The infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point, and so once it resolves, it will continue to resolve fully. However, since the effect of infiltrate specifically only occurs if the creature with infiltrate isn't blocked, the effect of the ability won't occur, even though the ability itself resolves.
If infiltrate says "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if ~ isn't blocked" and blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with infiltrate, the infiltrate ability will still trigger at this point, and be put onto the stack. This is because at this point, the trigger condition is still true. If ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature will become blocked by the creature with ambush. The infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point. However, when it attempts to resolve, it will check that its intervening-"if" clause condition is false, so it will be removed from the stack entirely and won't resolve.
The same goes for other phrasings of the "if" condition, such as "attacking and unblocked".
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Could there possibly be any sort of wording that could work better beyond "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if ~ isn't blocked"?
I was thinking about this: "Whenever ~ attacks and if it doesn't become blocked,"
So that way cards like Flash Foliage that put out a creature that has an attacking creature become blocked, just like how Ambush is worded here, would that work?
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Graham from Loading Ready Run
An ability that triggers when something “attacks and isn’t blocked” triggers in the declare blockers step after blockers are declared if (1) that creature is attacking and (2) no creatures are declared to block it. It will trigger even if that creature was put onto the battlefield attacking rather than having been declared as an attacker in the declare attackers step.
See the rulings on Thalakos Deceiver.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Graham from Loading Ready Run
If blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with Infiltrate, the Infiltrate ability will trigger at this point, and be put onto the stack. This is because at this point, the trigger condition is still true. If any ability occurs that causes the creature to become blocked, such as a creature with Ambush or Curtain of Light, the Infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point. However, when it attempts to resolve, it will check that its intervening-"if" clause condition is false, so it will be removed from the stack entirely and won't resolve.
So yes, it would still trigger, but it wouldn't resolve.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
this rule might help make my point,
"603.4. A triggered ability may read“When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].”When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause”rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition."
Bold by me for emphasis.
The point is that the trigger "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked" will check whenever a creature attacks if it is blocked, and since blockers have not been declared the creature will not be blocked.
Contrast with "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked" Which is the wording from Thalakos deceiver (in the oracle text), that is one trigger, that checks if the creature is attacking and if it isn't blocked, and triggers in the declare blockers step, because it doesn't have the if.
Graham from Loading Ready Run
If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.
This is an intervening 'if' ability. The 'if' immediately follows the trigger condition. "Whenever ~ attacks," -- Trigger. "if it isn't blocked" -- intervening if. An attacking unblocked creature exists from the time the defending player chooses not to block that creature until the combat phase ends. So if the creature becomes blocked before the end of the combat phase, but after blockers are declared, the ability won't resolve.
As Thought Criminal pointed out, an alternate wording would be "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked, if it isn't blocked, ..." This is ugly and "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked," accomplishes the same thing without the terrible wording.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
The issue is that the triggered ability won't trigger during the declare blockers step, which is when you want it to trigger, which is why the wording doesn't work.
Graham from Loading Ready Run
That's still the problem. You are trying to "interfere" with the trigger condition so the "if" clause becomes false. However, your wording of Ambush (and Flash Foliage for that matter) don't let you stop the trigger. Both only let you activate the ability after blockers have been declared. This trigger is happening, and resolving, in the Declare Attackers step so you can't activate Ambush yet. Were you suggesting the idea of rewording Ambush to allow it to happen in the Declare Attackers step? This introduces other problems with the ability.
Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked, [effect or ability]
Ambush (updated wording)
Ambush [cost] ([cost]: Put this creature from your hand onto the battlefield blocking target creature attacking you.)
Infiltrate is a triggered ability with an intervening if, so it checks on both trigger and resolution. So yes, it will 'wait around to check to see if the creature becomes blocked at some point during combat.'
Therefore you can use an effect such as Flash Foliage or Curtain of Light or Trap Runner or this Ambush effect to stop the "Whenever ~ attacks, if it isn't blocked" ability from resolving.
I'll give you a great example of another creature with an intervening 'if' clause that waits till the end step for a trigger in Spiny Starfish. At the beginning of each end step, -- Trigger -- if Spiny Starfish regenerated this turn, -- Intervening 'if' clause -- create a 0/1 blue Starfish creature token for each time it regenerated this turn.
Nothing is stopping the trigger from activating, it's stopping it from resolving. I believe the only way to stop the ability from even triggering would be to untap it and remove it from combat.
It's very situational in how it works. In a situation where blockers are declared such that no creature blocks the creature with Infiltrate, the Infiltrate ability will still trigger at this point, and be put onto the stack. This is because at this point, the trigger condition is still true. If Ambush is activated at this point and resolves, the creature will become blocked by the creature with Ambush. The Infiltrate ability is still on the stack at this point. However, when it attempts to resolve, it will check that its intervening-"if" clause condition is false, so it will be removed from the stack entirely and won't resolve.
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Spiny Starfish isn't a great example. I think there may be some confusion on "interviening if" in general, so let's break down the example of Spiny Starfish:
This trigger happens at the End Step because the card specifically says to trigger in the end step. There is nothing on your card that says to trigger in any case other than when it is declared as an attacker so that is when it will happen. Spiny Starfish is not "waiting around" to see what happens in the future. Instead, it is looking back into the past to see if it should trigger. If the creature has not regenerated at all (meaning it was never dealt lethal damage or nothing tried to destroy it after the Regeneration ability resolved) the trigger won't be put onto the stack at all. This is one of the defining features of an "intervening if" clause. They don' automatically go onto the stack. If, however, the creature has regenerated, the trigger will go on the stack and then resolve. You can't "unregenerate" a creature so there is nothing here that can interrupt the if clause.
To mimic the way the Starfish trigger works, you would need to re-word Infiltrate to something like this:
"At the end of combat, if this creature was not blocked this turn, [do something]". It does take away the ability to just pump it up for Combat Damage, but it illustrates the key difference between your example of the Starfish and your Inflitrate mechanic.
Adaptive Brambleback 3G
Creature - Beast (C)
Infiltrate — At the end of combat, if Adaptive Brambleback was not blocked this turn, you may put a +1/+1 counter on it.
3/3
Thoughts?
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Even with that being said I think it is fine and I think it seems to better allow for interaction between Infiltrate and Ambush the way you want.
Player A: "Is Infiltrate supposed to trigger if you didn't attack with the creature (and therefore it wasn't blocked)?"
Me: "Did the creature attack?"
Player A: "No."
Me: "So it didn't enter combat."
Player A: "But it still wasn't blocked."
Me: "A creature can only be blocked when it's in combat, right?"
Player A: "Then shouldn't it say 'At the end of combat, if ~ attacked was not blocked this turn,'
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling
Servien
Chaos' Realm
Escalation of Chaos
Tales of Cahdaria
Enigmatic Distrubance
Celestial Unveiling