I am thinking about starting to work on a Muraganda Set, and one mechanic that came to mind was something like this:
Apex Predator2GG
Creature- Dinosaur UC
Feast 1(When this creature dealt lethal combat damage, but a +1/+1 counter on it at the end of turn.)
3/3
The ability is similar to what Sengir creatures can do, but I wanted it to be more connected to the creature. Damage after the Combat Damage Phase, beeing the first to block or any kinds of shenanigans damage should not enable feast.
It's supposed to be really straight forward. You delivered the killing blow, you get to eat it.
Question is, can you incorporate "lethal damage" into a mechanic like that?
The reminder text as currently written is acceptable, although not formatted properly: "(Whenever this creature deals lethal combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it at the beginning of the next end step.)"
However, the above doesn't assume the answer to the following questions:
1) If multiple creatures deal combat damage to the same creature simultaneously, at least one of which has feast, do the creatures with feast get their +1/+1 counter?
2) Do you want "lethal" to also apply to players? In other words, do you want a creature with feast to be able to get a +1/+1 counter upon a player losing the game due to SBA's being checked where the action that caused them to lose the game was being dealt damage by a creature with feast?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The reminder text as currently written is acceptable, although not formatted properly: "(Whenever this creature deals lethal combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it at the beginning of the next end step.)"
However, the above doesn't assume the answer to the following questions:
1) If multiple creatures deal combat damage to the same creature simultaneously, at least one of which has feast, do the creatures with feast get their +1/+1 counter?
2) Do you want "lethal" to also apply to players? In other words, do you want a creature with feast to be able to get a +1/+1 counter upon a player losing the game due to SBA's being checked where the action that caused them to lose the game was being dealt damage by a creature with feast?
Thanks, that should work!
@1) That's what I meant with multiple blockers. Even though combat damage is dealt "simultaneously", but there is still a combat damage assignment order to determine who deals what damage when. If the first blocker did not assign enough damage to kill the attacker, feast will not trigger, but the damage will be marked on the attacker and maybe the next blocker gets the kill.
@2) No, not really. Would only be applicable in multiplayer anyway, it would also need a higher bonus, like Blood Tyrant. Getting the same bonus for eating a player would not be enough, feasting on a parent should bring higher rewards.
@1) That's what I meant with multiple blockers. Even though combat damage is dealt "simultaneously", but there is still a combat damage assignment order to determine who deals what damage when. If the first blocker did not assign enough damage to kill the attacker, feast will not trigger, but the damage will be marked on the attacker and maybe the next blocker gets the kill.
@2) No, not really. Would only be applicable in multiplayer anyway, it would also need a higher bonus, like Blood Tyrant. Getting the same bonus for eating a player would not be enough, feasting on a parent should bring higher rewards.
1) Combat damage assignment order is only relevant to what creatures or players (in the case of trample) are dealt how much damage relative to other creatures or players in the order. It doesn't actually mean that combat damage is dealt at separate times. Because of this, if two feast creatures each deal 3 combat damage to a 5/5, then either both or neither abilities would have to trigger (barring first strike and double strike, of course).
2) You might want to include "lethal combat damage to a creature" in the reminder text then, as even though more experienced players may understand it, those who aren't as familiar likely will not.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
1) Combat damage assignment order is only relevant to what creatures or players (in the case of trample) are dealt how much damage relative to other creatures or players in the order. It doesn't actually mean that combat damage is dealt at separate times. Because of this, if two feast creatures each deal 3 combat damage to a 5/5, then either both or neither abilities would have to trigger (barring first strike and double strike, of course).
2) You might want to include "lethal combat damage to a creature" in the reminder text then, as even though more experienced players may understand it, those who aren't as familiar likely will not.
@1) I was mostly relying on this part of the combat phase ruling:
When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step
So even though damage is applied simultaniously, the damage that made it lethal came from whichever creature came in last in the assignment order, unless previous damage was already lethal.
The rules are really flimsy about that by the way. Damage comes in simultaniously, but there is supposed to be an assignment order. How can something be after each other but also at the same time?
@1) I was mostly relying on this part of the combat phase ruling:
When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that's being assigned during the same combat damage step
So even though damage is applied simultaniously, the damage that made it lethal came from whichever creature came in last in the assignment order, unless previous damage was already lethal.
The rules are really flimsy about that by the way. Damage comes in simultaniously, but there is supposed to be an assignment order. How can something be after each other but also at the same time?
The damage assignment order is only for ordering what creatures an attacking or blocking creature deals damage to. You shouldn't be thinking of the damage assignment order as actually having creatures deal damage at different times with state-based actions checked afterward.
Damage assignment order really only applies when multiple creatures are blocking or blocked by the same creature. Here, since we're only focused on many creatures with feast being blocked by one big creature, it's the blocking creature, not the attacking creatures, that the controller has to give a damage assignment order to. As far as the attacking feast creatures are concerned, the only possible ordering of things to deal damage to is the one big creature. When combat damage is dealt, each of the attacking creatures, as well as the one blocking creature, will deal their damage to each other at the same time, and if that's what causes the blocking creature to die, then your feast creatures get the bonus.
When determining whether a creature with feast will get its bonus, don't think of the damage assignment order. Think of each of the creatures that it's dealing damage to and whether they would be dealt lethal damage and destroyed or put into another zone this way. If they are, then your creature will get the bonus. If not, then it won't.
For what it's worth, here is an attempted hypothetical CR rules entry for what I believe is your intention. The following assumes that creatures with indestructible that are dealt lethal damage will not allow feast creatures to get their bonus:
---
702.FST. Feast
702.FSTa Feast is a triggered ability that appears on some creatures. "Feast N" means "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, the second creature had not been dealt lethal damage since the last time state-based actions were checked, and the second creature would be put into another zone due to being dealt lethal damage the next time state-based actions are checked, put N +1/+1 counters on the first creature."
702.FSTb If a creature has multiple instances of feast, each triggers separately.
---
The extremely long trigger condition is required for the idea of immediacy that you want for your mechanic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Ok, thanks for the comprehensive rules!!!, although I don't really get the phrasing "second creature". Do you mean the other creature, as in "another creature"?
When determining whether a creature with feast will get its bonus, don't think of the damage assignment order. Think of each of the creatures that it's dealing damage to and whether they would be dealt lethal damage and destroyed or put into another zone this way. If they are, then your creature will get the bonus. If not, then it won't.
Yep, that's what I was going for anyway, and I can live with it maybe being used by 2+ creatures at once. Teameffort or something.
It's just important that the trigger relies on combat damage and the combat phase, so no 2nd mainphase sorcery kills to trigger your Baron Sengir or something like that. Fight for it and invest into good Instants or leave it.
Ok, thanks for the comprehensive rules!!!, although I don't really get the phrasing "second creature". Do you mean the other creature, as in "another creature"?
Yes, the "first creature" refers to your attacking creature, and the "second creature" refers to the creature that's destroyed (or otherwise removed from the battlefield) this way.
Yep, that's what I was going for anyway, and I can live with it maybe being used by 2+ creatures at once. Teameffort or something.
It's just important that the trigger relies on combat damage and the combat phase, so no 2nd mainphase sorcery kills to trigger your Baron Sengir or something like that. Fight for it and invest into good Instants or leave it.
I'm glad I could help. In fact, the rules I wrote more generally incorporates "causation" of events, such as a spell "causing" a creature to die or whatnot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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I am thinking about starting to work on a Muraganda Set, and one mechanic that came to mind was something like this:
Apex Predator 2GG
Creature- Dinosaur UC
Feast 1(When this creature dealt lethal combat damage, but a +1/+1 counter on it at the end of turn.)
3/3
The ability is similar to what Sengir creatures can do, but I wanted it to be more connected to the creature. Damage after the Combat Damage Phase, beeing the first to block or any kinds of shenanigans damage should not enable feast.
It's supposed to be really straight forward. You delivered the killing blow, you get to eat it.
Question is, can you incorporate "lethal damage" into a mechanic like that?
However, the above doesn't assume the answer to the following questions:
1) If multiple creatures deal combat damage to the same creature simultaneously, at least one of which has feast, do the creatures with feast get their +1/+1 counter?
2) Do you want "lethal" to also apply to players? In other words, do you want a creature with feast to be able to get a +1/+1 counter upon a player losing the game due to SBA's being checked where the action that caused them to lose the game was being dealt damage by a creature with feast?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Thanks, that should work!
@1) That's what I meant with multiple blockers. Even though combat damage is dealt "simultaneously", but there is still a combat damage assignment order to determine who deals what damage when. If the first blocker did not assign enough damage to kill the attacker, feast will not trigger, but the damage will be marked on the attacker and maybe the next blocker gets the kill.
@2) No, not really. Would only be applicable in multiplayer anyway, it would also need a higher bonus, like Blood Tyrant. Getting the same bonus for eating a player would not be enough, feasting on a parent should bring higher rewards.
1) Combat damage assignment order is only relevant to what creatures or players (in the case of trample) are dealt how much damage relative to other creatures or players in the order. It doesn't actually mean that combat damage is dealt at separate times. Because of this, if two feast creatures each deal 3 combat damage to a 5/5, then either both or neither abilities would have to trigger (barring first strike and double strike, of course).
2) You might want to include "lethal combat damage to a creature" in the reminder text then, as even though more experienced players may understand it, those who aren't as familiar likely will not.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
@1) I was mostly relying on this part of the combat phase ruling:
So even though damage is applied simultaniously, the damage that made it lethal came from whichever creature came in last in the assignment order, unless previous damage was already lethal.
The rules are really flimsy about that by the way. Damage comes in simultaniously, but there is supposed to be an assignment order. How can something be after each other but also at the same time?
The damage assignment order is only for ordering what creatures an attacking or blocking creature deals damage to. You shouldn't be thinking of the damage assignment order as actually having creatures deal damage at different times with state-based actions checked afterward.
Damage assignment order really only applies when multiple creatures are blocking or blocked by the same creature. Here, since we're only focused on many creatures with feast being blocked by one big creature, it's the blocking creature, not the attacking creatures, that the controller has to give a damage assignment order to. As far as the attacking feast creatures are concerned, the only possible ordering of things to deal damage to is the one big creature. When combat damage is dealt, each of the attacking creatures, as well as the one blocking creature, will deal their damage to each other at the same time, and if that's what causes the blocking creature to die, then your feast creatures get the bonus.
When determining whether a creature with feast will get its bonus, don't think of the damage assignment order. Think of each of the creatures that it's dealing damage to and whether they would be dealt lethal damage and destroyed or put into another zone this way. If they are, then your creature will get the bonus. If not, then it won't.
For what it's worth, here is an attempted hypothetical CR rules entry for what I believe is your intention. The following assumes that creatures with indestructible that are dealt lethal damage will not allow feast creatures to get their bonus:
---
702.FST. Feast
702.FSTa Feast is a triggered ability that appears on some creatures. "Feast N" means "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to another creature, the second creature had not been dealt lethal damage since the last time state-based actions were checked, and the second creature would be put into another zone due to being dealt lethal damage the next time state-based actions are checked, put N +1/+1 counters on the first creature."
702.FSTb If a creature has multiple instances of feast, each triggers separately.
---
The extremely long trigger condition is required for the idea of immediacy that you want for your mechanic.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Yep, that's what I was going for anyway, and I can live with it maybe being used by 2+ creatures at once. Teameffort or something.
It's just important that the trigger relies on combat damage and the combat phase, so no 2nd mainphase sorcery kills to trigger your Baron Sengir or something like that. Fight for it and invest into good Instants or leave it.
Yes, the "first creature" refers to your attacking creature, and the "second creature" refers to the creature that's destroyed (or otherwise removed from the battlefield) this way.
I'm glad I could help. In fact, the rules I wrote more generally incorporates "causation" of events, such as a spell "causing" a creature to die or whatnot.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall