EDIT: Posted in the wrong subforum. This should be under Custom Card Rulings.
Realm of Disillusion3UU Enchantment {M}
Rather than choose targets for spells and abilities you control as they're cast or activated, choose them immediately before they resolve. (If you can't choose any targets this way, the spell or ability doesn't resolve.)
Rather than choose players or planeswalkers for creatures you control to attack, choose them immediately before the combat damage step begins. (During your declare blockers step, any creatures may block a creature you control that's attacking this way.)
Assume the above card is to be printed in a set whose target audience is players who are very familiar with the rules of the game and are able to warp them around a bit. Are there any cases where this card wouldn't work? A few notes are below. In them, attacking without a player or planeswalker specified this way will be called "attacking 'into nothing'", and analogously for spells and abilities:
1) Normally, the period of time that a spell or ability is on the stack goes like this:
1.1.1 Put spell or ability on stack, choose modes or intent to pay non-mana costs
1.1.2 Choose targets for the spell or ability
1.1.3 Determine and pay costs
1.1.4 Players pass priority
1.1.5 Spell or ability resolves based on legal targets or gets countered
1.1.6 Spell is put into owner's graveyard or ability ceases to exist
With this card on the battlefield, the order changes slightly:
1.2.1 Put spell or ability on stack, choose modes or intent to pay non-mana costs
1.2.2 Determine and pay costs
1.2.3 Players pass priority
1.2.4 Choose targets for the spell or ability
1.2.5 Spell or ability resolves based on legal targets or gets countered
1.2.6 Spell is put into owner's graveyard or ability ceases to exist
In step d of the second version, the targets of the spell or ability are chosen as though they were chosen at the same time a spell is being cast or an ability is being activated. Targeting restrictions and requirements apply as normal.
2) Similarly, the combat phase order changes slightly:
2.1 Beginning of combat step
2.2 Declare attackers step
2.2.1 For each creature, do not choose a player or planeswalker for it to be attacking
2.2.2 Other things that are part of declaration of attackers happen as normal*
2.2.3 Players pass priority
2.3 Declare blockers step
2.3.1 Because attacking creatures aren't attacking any one specific player or planeswalker, any players' creatures are able to block such creatures
2.3.2 Other things that are part of declaration of blockers happen as normal*
2.3.3 Players pass priority
2.3.4 For each creature the active player controls that is attacking but with an unspecified player or planeswalker, that player specifies a player or planeswalker that that creature attacks
2.4 Combat damage step
2.5 End of combat step
3) Regarding (1):
a. If the ability of a permanent triggers upon having it become a target of a spell or ability (perhaps a heroic ability), the ability triggers when step 1.2.4 is reached if that creature is chosen as a target, but isn't put onto the stack until the spell finishes resolving.
b. Because players don't receive priority again after targets are chosen for spells and abilities this way, abilities of cards like Spellskite that redirect targets of spells and abilities will not work against spells and abilities that are cast or activated "into nothing".
c. Requirements and restrictions of targeting are obeyed as normal (such as Flagbearers).
4) Regarding (2):
a. If a creature has a requirement that forces it to attack, but the player or planeswalker is not specified, that creature is allowed to attack "into nothing". Abilities of creatures that trigger whenever they attack, without a player or planeswalker specified, trigger as normal.
b. If a creature has a requirement that forces it to attack a specific player or planeswalker, the creature must obey any one such requirement if able. Abilities of creatures that trigger whenever they attack, with a player or planeswalker specified, will not trigger.
c. If a creature has a restriction that prohibits it from attacking, but the player or planeswalker that it's prohibited from attacking is unspecified, that restriction applies even to a creature that's attacking "into nothing".
d. If a creature has a restriction that prohibits it from attacking a specific player or planeswalker, the restriction doesn't apply to that creature if it's attacking "into nothing".
5) In games with teams of more than one player, Realm of Disillusion applies onto the its controllers' spells, abilities, and creatures.
6) In games with simultaneous turns, a creature attacking "into nothing" can't be blocked by another attacking creature.
7) Creatures put onto the battlefield "tapped and attacking" are not affected by this. Other things that work as normal include things like control change removing creatures from combat and regeneration. Effects of cards like Curtain of Light will cause a creature attacking "into nothing" to be blocked the same way as a creature being blocked by a creature that's later destroyed attacks "into nothing". Trample works in both cases as normal.
I'm concerned only with the rules interactions with this card. Depending on how I feel, this may or may not be included in a special hypothetical supplemental product.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Pretty much nothing that references a defending player works in a multiplayer game.
And no, you would never be able to trigger heroic with this. There's a difference between "Whenever ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability" and "Whenever you cast a spell that targets ~". Heroic is the latter.
What about the rules requiring a full set of legal targets to be chosen? What happens when there aren't 6 creatures when Hex starts resolving? What happens when there are less than X creatures and players when Firestorm starts resolving? How does Comet Storm work?
This design makes it impossible to make informed responses/blocks to anything. No matter what a responding/blocking player does, it will almost always end up being a feel-bad moment because the final result will be engineered to make as many responses/blocks as possible into very bad ones. This isn't a good thing to have in a game.
This design makes it impossible to make informed responses/blocks to anything. No matter what a responding/blocking player does, it will almost always end up being a feel-bad moment because the final result will be engineered to make as many responses/blocks as possible into very bad ones. This isn't a good thing to have in a game.
Yes, yes. The main reason for having spells that target is so that the other player can respond to your choice. So what is the reason for doing this? If you don't want players to respond, there are other simpler existing ways like split second that prevent responses without having to rewrite several lengthy rules and hope that there are no rules interactions problems.
Technically in a 2 player game, the defending player is the non active player. If you could attack multiple players, the defending player for that creature is the player it was attacking when it was declared as an attacker during that combat. Edit: Feel like fixing my wording. It's the player it was attacking (or controller of the planeswalker it's attacking) when it became an attacking creature rather than when it was declared as an attacker.
It works in a duel because the other player is always the defending player, but no defending player is ever defined in multiplayer because all your creatures are somehow attacking "into nothing".
Thanks for that. I play much more multiplayer than 2-player, so I forgot about the simplified determination of "defending player" used in 2-player games.
Realm of Disillusion 3UU
Enchantment {M}
Rather than choose targets for spells and abilities you control as they're cast or activated, choose them immediately before they resolve. (If you can't choose any targets this way, the spell or ability doesn't resolve.)
Rather than choose players or planeswalkers for creatures you control to attack, choose them immediately before the combat damage step begins. (During your declare blockers step, any creatures may block a creature you control that's attacking this way.)
Assume the above card is to be printed in a set whose target audience is players who are very familiar with the rules of the game and are able to warp them around a bit. Are there any cases where this card wouldn't work? A few notes are below. In them, attacking without a player or planeswalker specified this way will be called "attacking 'into nothing'", and analogously for spells and abilities:
1) Normally, the period of time that a spell or ability is on the stack goes like this:
1.1.1 Put spell or ability on stack, choose modes or intent to pay non-mana costs
1.1.2 Choose targets for the spell or ability
1.1.3 Determine and pay costs
1.1.4 Players pass priority
1.1.5 Spell or ability resolves based on legal targets or gets countered
1.1.6 Spell is put into owner's graveyard or ability ceases to exist
With this card on the battlefield, the order changes slightly:
1.2.1 Put spell or ability on stack, choose modes or intent to pay non-mana costs
1.2.2 Determine and pay costs
1.2.3 Players pass priority
1.2.4 Choose targets for the spell or ability
1.2.5 Spell or ability resolves based on legal targets or gets countered
1.2.6 Spell is put into owner's graveyard or ability ceases to exist
In step d of the second version, the targets of the spell or ability are chosen as though they were chosen at the same time a spell is being cast or an ability is being activated. Targeting restrictions and requirements apply as normal.
2) Similarly, the combat phase order changes slightly:
2.1 Beginning of combat step
2.2 Declare attackers step
2.2.1 For each creature, do not choose a player or planeswalker for it to be attacking
2.2.2 Other things that are part of declaration of attackers happen as normal*
2.2.3 Players pass priority
2.3 Declare blockers step
2.3.1 Because attacking creatures aren't attacking any one specific player or planeswalker, any players' creatures are able to block such creatures
2.3.2 Other things that are part of declaration of blockers happen as normal*
2.3.3 Players pass priority
2.3.4 For each creature the active player controls that is attacking but with an unspecified player or planeswalker, that player specifies a player or planeswalker that that creature attacks
2.4 Combat damage step
2.5 End of combat step
3) Regarding (1):
a. If the ability of a permanent triggers upon having it become a target of a spell or ability (perhaps a heroic ability), the ability triggers when step 1.2.4 is reached if that creature is chosen as a target, but isn't put onto the stack until the spell finishes resolving.
b. Because players don't receive priority again after targets are chosen for spells and abilities this way, abilities of cards like Spellskite that redirect targets of spells and abilities will not work against spells and abilities that are cast or activated "into nothing".
c. Requirements and restrictions of targeting are obeyed as normal (such as Flagbearers).
4) Regarding (2):
a. If a creature has a requirement that forces it to attack, but the player or planeswalker is not specified, that creature is allowed to attack "into nothing". Abilities of creatures that trigger whenever they attack, without a player or planeswalker specified, trigger as normal.
b. If a creature has a requirement that forces it to attack a specific player or planeswalker, the creature must obey any one such requirement if able. Abilities of creatures that trigger whenever they attack, with a player or planeswalker specified, will not trigger.
c. If a creature has a restriction that prohibits it from attacking, but the player or planeswalker that it's prohibited from attacking is unspecified, that restriction applies even to a creature that's attacking "into nothing".
d. If a creature has a restriction that prohibits it from attacking a specific player or planeswalker, the restriction doesn't apply to that creature if it's attacking "into nothing".
5) In games with teams of more than one player, Realm of Disillusion applies onto the its controllers' spells, abilities, and creatures.
6) In games with simultaneous turns, a creature attacking "into nothing" can't be blocked by another attacking creature.
7) Creatures put onto the battlefield "tapped and attacking" are not affected by this. Other things that work as normal include things like control change removing creatures from combat and regeneration. Effects of cards like Curtain of Light will cause a creature attacking "into nothing" to be blocked the same way as a creature being blocked by a creature that's later destroyed attacks "into nothing". Trample works in both cases as normal.
I'm concerned only with the rules interactions with this card. Depending on how I feel, this may or may not be included in a special hypothetical supplemental product.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
No longer staff here.
And no, you would never be able to trigger heroic with this. There's a difference between "Whenever ~ becomes the target of a spell or ability" and "Whenever you cast a spell that targets ~". Heroic is the latter.
What about the rules requiring a full set of legal targets to be chosen? What happens when there aren't 6 creatures when Hex starts resolving? What happens when there are less than X creatures and players when Firestorm starts resolving? How does Comet Storm work?
This design makes it impossible to make informed responses/blocks to anything. No matter what a responding/blocking player does, it will almost always end up being a feel-bad moment because the final result will be engineered to make as many responses/blocks as possible into very bad ones. This isn't a good thing to have in a game.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
Yes, yes. The main reason for having spells that target is so that the other player can respond to your choice. So what is the reason for doing this? If you don't want players to respond, there are other simpler existing ways like split second that prevent responses without having to rewrite several lengthy rules and hope that there are no rules interactions problems.
It works in a duel because the other player is always the defending player, but no defending player is ever defined in multiplayer because all your creatures are somehow attacking "into nothing".
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!