Suppose I control a permanent with the following ability:
T: Add R to your mana pool. ~ deals 1 damage to up to one target player.
Is this a mana ability?
---
112.1. An ability can be one of two things:
112.1a An ability is a characteristic an object has that lets it affect the game. An object’s abilities are defined by its rules text or by the effect that created it. Abilities can also be granted to objects by rules or effects. Abilities generate effects.
112.1b An ability can be an activated or triggered ability on the stack. This kind of ability is an object.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability.
---
Does 605.1a refer to abilities as defined by 112.1a or 112.1b?
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I think 112.1 is intended to be read along the lines of "When some effect in the game talks about an 'ability', it can mean one of two things:" and then the subrules give the distinction between what Humility is talking about vs. what Stifle is talking about. Since mana abilities don't go to the stack, you could say that technically "mana ability" can only mean something covered by 112.1a.
The hypothetical card is interesting because the ability isn't definitively a mana ability or non-mana ability until it's actually activated. Because of the rules about how to activate an ability (namely: if at any time the activation becomes illegal, stop what you're doing and back up), this should interact with cards like Pithing Needle, etc. in the "correct" way, based on whether or not a target is chosen. Whether or not it's okay for something to sometimes be a mana ability and sometimes not may still be an open question.
Earlier this summer the topic of Caged Sun's triggered ability came up in these forums and official judge resource forums, specifically about whether or not the triggered ability is still considered a mana ability if it triggers from a non-mana ability (the situations always involve some combination of Conspiracy and Life and Limb). Matt Tabak's "(O)fficial" answer acknowledged the ambiguity in the rules and said to just treat it as a mana ability. The related rules haven't yet been updated to document that result.
The hypothetical card is interesting because the ability isn't definitively a mana ability or non-mana ability until it's actually activated. Because of the rules about how to activate an ability (namely: if at any time the activation becomes illegal, stop what you're doing and back up), this should interact with cards like Pithing Needle, etc. in the "correct" way, based on whether or not a target is chosen. Whether or not it's okay for something to sometimes be a mana ability and sometimes not may still be an open question.
That's interesting. If I recall correctly, wasn't there some sort of interaction between either like a Dryad Arbor or a mana rock and a Reflecting Pool/Exotic Orchard where it was ruled that if the mana that would be produced by the effects of a mana ability were indeterminate, that Reflecting Pool or Exotic Orchard wouldn't be able to produce that mana? Maybe I'm just pulling stuff out of thin air here.
Earlier this summer the topic of Caged Sun's triggered ability came up in these forums and official judge resource forums, specifically about whether or not the triggered ability is still considered a mana ability if it triggers from a non-mana ability (the situations always involve some combination of Conspiracy and Life and Limb). Matt Tabak's "(O)fficial" answer acknowledged the ambiguity in the rules and said to just treat it as a mana ability. The related rules haven't yet been updated to document that result.
The fiasco with Caged Sun was ruled in favor of "always mana ability" because of the clear intention of the person who designed the card. It was the "intention" argument that was the entire basis of the ruling being made in favor of "always mana ability". Without that basis, it would've been impossible to determine otherwise, and the ruling given would have otherwise had to been arbitrary.
Having said that, since I would be the creator of the card with the weird mana ability in the first place, my intent would be that this ability is a mana ability if and only if a target is not chosen for it.
Actually, I believe that's why 605.1a uses "doesn't have a target" rather than "isn't targeted", since 114.1c describes very well what it means for an ability to "be targeted".
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I'm not really sure what you're getting at with the Reflecting Pool/Exotic Orchard thing. I know that if a player controls Pool and no other lands, his opponent's Orchard can't make mana.
I figured that's what you intended for the function of the card, but I'm the type that would much rather have improved documentation in the CR than more "intent" rulings. Things like that remind me of the "bad old days" when the rules just gave the basics about how to play, timing, and keywords, and the rest of the game was a mess of stapled-together single card (O)fficial rulings that often conflicted with the rules and each other.
I figured that's what you intended for the function of the card, but I'm the type that would much rather have improved documentation in the CR than more "intent" rulings. Things like that remind me of the "bad old days" when the rules just gave the basics about how to play, timing, and keywords, and the rest of the game was a mess of stapled-together single card (O)fficial rulings that often conflicted with the rules and each other.
I'm all for improved CR documentation for clarity and readability purposes, too. Unfortunately, some people don't agree, giving the (bogus) reason that "these kinds of situations don't happen nearly enough in the game to warrant such an addition."
Anyway, this is what I'm going with. Does this break anything?
605.1a* An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability. This includes an activated ability that is targeted but doesn't have any targets selected for it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Using the word "targeted" in that sentence kind of makes it sound contradictory. Maybe something like "This includes an ability with a variable number of targets that is activated with no targets chosen for it"? That sounds too long and unwieldy.
Using the word "targeted" in that sentence kind of makes it sound contradictory. Maybe something like "This includes an ability with a variable number of targets that is activated with no targets chosen for it"? That sounds too long and unwieldy.
Eh, the CR has longer sentences than that. I think that's a much better rewording. Thanks!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I think the non-targeting rules for defining a mana ability is more relevant for how the ability is activated.
605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability (see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:
605.3a A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
In order for you to activate an ability while in the middle of casting a spell, you have to determine that it is a mana ability before you begin to activate it. That is long before you would choose the "up to one target player" for the hypothetical ability. In order for the exceptions in CR 605.3 to function properly, I think the hypothetical ability would have to always be considered to not be a mana ability, whether or not you choose a target for it. For custom rules, this would be added to CR 605.5a to specify that abilities with optional targets are never mana abilities even if nothing is chosen for those targets.
I think the non-targeting rules for defining a mana ability is more relevant for how the ability is activated.
605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability (see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:
605.3a A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
In order for you to activate an ability while in the middle of casting a spell, you have to determine that it is a mana ability before you begin to activate it. That is long before you would choose the "up to one target player" for the hypothetical ability. In order for the exceptions in CR 605.3 to function properly, I think the hypothetical ability would have to always be considered to not be a mana ability, whether or not you choose a target for it. For custom rules, this would be added to CR 605.5a to specify that abilities with optional targets are never mana abilities even if nothing is chosen for those targets.
Would it not also fall under handling illegal actions? As in, choosing to activate the ability with a target is an illegal action and would be rewound (in the same way that a player casting a sorcery spell on an opponent's turn would be rewound), but choosing to activate the ability with no target is not an illegal action?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Comparing it with sorcery spells is not very favorable to your argument because you can't start to cast a sorcery spell at any time other than during your main phase while the stack is empty. You likewise can't start to activate an ability that isn't a mana ability while there is a spell being cast or a spell resolving. Sure you could decide that is an illegal action and should be reversed, but it is still not a mana ability then.
The main point of differentiating between mana abilities and non-mana abilities is that mana abilities have different timing and are activated and resolved in a different way. For this to sometime be a mana ability, I think you would actually need to create a third category for mana abilities, non-mana abilities, and abilities that can change between being mana abilities and not being mana abilities. That would allow you to start activating an ability, decide not to choose any targets, then have it be a mana ability.
Rules-wise it would be a whole lot simpler and cleaner if this hypothetical ability were just never a mana ability.
But then what about the situation where you're about to cast a spell or activate an ability, and then realizing you don't have enough sources of mana to satisfy the costs of casting or activating that object? In both cases, there is a step in the casting/activating process that cannot be followed, meaning the casting/activating is illegal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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T: Add R to your mana pool. ~ deals 1 damage to up to one target player.
Is this a mana ability?
---
112.1. An ability can be one of two things:
112.1a An ability is a characteristic an object has that lets it affect the game. An object’s abilities are defined by its rules text or by the effect that created it. Abilities can also be granted to objects by rules or effects. Abilities generate effects.
112.1b An ability can be an activated or triggered ability on the stack. This kind of ability is an object.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability.
---
Does 605.1a refer to abilities as defined by 112.1a or 112.1b?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The hypothetical card is interesting because the ability isn't definitively a mana ability or non-mana ability until it's actually activated. Because of the rules about how to activate an ability (namely: if at any time the activation becomes illegal, stop what you're doing and back up), this should interact with cards like Pithing Needle, etc. in the "correct" way, based on whether or not a target is chosen. Whether or not it's okay for something to sometimes be a mana ability and sometimes not may still be an open question.
Earlier this summer the topic of Caged Sun's triggered ability came up in these forums and official judge resource forums, specifically about whether or not the triggered ability is still considered a mana ability if it triggers from a non-mana ability (the situations always involve some combination of Conspiracy and Life and Limb). Matt Tabak's "(O)fficial" answer acknowledged the ambiguity in the rules and said to just treat it as a mana ability. The related rules haven't yet been updated to document that result.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
That's interesting. If I recall correctly, wasn't there some sort of interaction between either like a Dryad Arbor or a mana rock and a Reflecting Pool/Exotic Orchard where it was ruled that if the mana that would be produced by the effects of a mana ability were indeterminate, that Reflecting Pool or Exotic Orchard wouldn't be able to produce that mana? Maybe I'm just pulling stuff out of thin air here.
The fiasco with Caged Sun was ruled in favor of "always mana ability" because of the clear intention of the person who designed the card. It was the "intention" argument that was the entire basis of the ruling being made in favor of "always mana ability". Without that basis, it would've been impossible to determine otherwise, and the ruling given would have otherwise had to been arbitrary.
Having said that, since I would be the creator of the card with the weird mana ability in the first place, my intent would be that this ability is a mana ability if and only if a target is not chosen for it.
Actually, I believe that's why 605.1a uses "doesn't have a target" rather than "isn't targeted", since 114.1c describes very well what it means for an ability to "be targeted".
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I figured that's what you intended for the function of the card, but I'm the type that would much rather have improved documentation in the CR than more "intent" rulings. Things like that remind me of the "bad old days" when the rules just gave the basics about how to play, timing, and keywords, and the rest of the game was a mess of stapled-together single card (O)fficial rulings that often conflicted with the rules and each other.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
I'm all for improved CR documentation for clarity and readability purposes, too. Unfortunately, some people don't agree, giving the (bogus) reason that "these kinds of situations don't happen nearly enough in the game to warrant such an addition."
Anyway, this is what I'm going with. Does this break anything?
605.1a* An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets three criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability. This includes an activated ability that is targeted but doesn't have any targets selected for it.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
Eh, the CR has longer sentences than that. I think that's a much better rewording. Thanks!
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
605.3a A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
In order for you to activate an ability while in the middle of casting a spell, you have to determine that it is a mana ability before you begin to activate it. That is long before you would choose the "up to one target player" for the hypothetical ability. In order for the exceptions in CR 605.3 to function properly, I think the hypothetical ability would have to always be considered to not be a mana ability, whether or not you choose a target for it. For custom rules, this would be added to CR 605.5a to specify that abilities with optional targets are never mana abilities even if nothing is chosen for those targets.
Would it not also fall under handling illegal actions? As in, choosing to activate the ability with a target is an illegal action and would be rewound (in the same way that a player casting a sorcery spell on an opponent's turn would be rewound), but choosing to activate the ability with no target is not an illegal action?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The main point of differentiating between mana abilities and non-mana abilities is that mana abilities have different timing and are activated and resolved in a different way. For this to sometime be a mana ability, I think you would actually need to create a third category for mana abilities, non-mana abilities, and abilities that can change between being mana abilities and not being mana abilities. That would allow you to start activating an ability, decide not to choose any targets, then have it be a mana ability.
Rules-wise it would be a whole lot simpler and cleaner if this hypothetical ability were just never a mana ability.
But then what about the situation where you're about to cast a spell or activate an ability, and then realizing you don't have enough sources of mana to satisfy the costs of casting or activating that object? In both cases, there is a step in the casting/activating process that cannot be followed, meaning the casting/activating is illegal.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall