As far as I know, there is only one card in the game where there is no priority-passing between the time when targets are selected for it and the time when the effect that requires those targets is applied. That card is Fatal Lore. It works the way it does because the choice of opponent isn't made until resolution, by which point the standard procedure for selecting targets has already long passed.
However, is there a way for targets for a spell or ability to be chosen upon its resolution where there is no time between choice of targets and application of effect for players to have priority? I don't know how to word it, but the rules would be as follows:
- If such a spell or ability would resolve, choose legal targets for the spell as described in 601.2c. If you can, the spell will resolve as normal, but if you can't, the spell is countered upon resolution and put into your graveyard as normal (it doesn't resolve).
- If such a spell or ability is copied and an effect allows its targets to be changed, nothing happens, because during the process of casting the spell or activating the ability, targets for it were never chosen.
- Similarly, Spellskite, the flagbearer mechanic, and other similar mechanics do not apply.
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Fatal Lore is a modal spell. It works the exact same as any other modal spell except an opponent chooses the mode for you. This doesn't happen upon resolution, it happens when you cast the spell.
Fatal Lore is a modal spell. It works the exact same as any other modal spell except an opponent chooses the mode for you. This doesn't happen upon resolution, it happens when you cast the spell.
Thanks for catching that. It appears the Gatherer ruling is a bit ambiguous.
However, my question still stands. Is there a way for targets to be chosen for a spell or ability during its resolution and have its effects be applied immediately after the choice of targets?
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Not really. To cast a spell with targets you have to choose an object for all those targets. That's the point of targeting.
The only thing that choosing a target upon resolution would do as opposed to just "Choose a ____" would be to get stopped by things like hexproof or protection.
Hmm, alright. So would the "slap things on" wording work:
Groom Blade1B Instant
~'s target isn't chosen until it would resolve.
Destroy target nonblack creature.
That One Spell That Kills Six Creatures Whose Name I Forgot Sorcery
~'s targets aren't chosen until it would resolve.
Destroy six target creatures.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
It's more of a design experiment. Whereas split second is the "I do all the targeting now so that this spell can resolve 'immediately' without you having a chance at saving what I targeted", this would be the converse (i.e. "I do none of the targeting now so that this spell can resolve later, giving you a chance to guess what I'm about to target").
Both have the notion of "by the time I select targets for this thing, it'll be too late for you to respond" (for the most part, when speaking about split second).
My Sarcasmometer™ is pinging, yet I am unsure whether you are serious or not that you forgot the name Hex.
Wow, seriously? I thought it would have a more complex name than that. But I suppose a Gatherer search would've cleared that up.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Well, more than it just being a simple name, the design was specifically playing with the two meanings of the word. A hex is an evil spell, and "hex-" is the prefix meaning six (as in hexagon). It also costs six mana and has six words in its flavor text.
What's the motivation for this? Groom Blade can be worded "Choose a nonblack creature and destroy it", but do you still want protection/shroud/etc. to defend against it?
Well, more than it just being a simple name, the design was specifically playing with the two meanings of the word. A hex is an evil spell, and "hex-" is the prefix meaning six (as in hexagon). It also costs six mana and has six words in its flavor text.
What's the motivation for this? Groom Blade can be worded "Choose a nonblack creature and destroy it", but do you still want protection/shroud/etc. to defend against it?
Yes, that's the point of this. If Groom Blade would resolve, its controller has an opportunity to choose any targets for it, with the same restrictions as though the spell were just being cast. This means that the controller can't choose creatures with shroud/hexproof/protection as the targets. It's simply a movement of the targeting procedure from when the spell is cast to when the spell would resolve.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
There's nothing mathematically contradictory with targets being chosen just before resolution. However, it is contrary to the lifecycle of a spell that its number of targets would change during its time on the Stack. It is one of those things about the game's semantics that so far has been constant, but it's not clear whether shaking it up would break something (or simply be bad in the long run).
Bizarrely, the following effect is intelligible:
Broom Blade
You may change the target of Broom Blade. Destroy target nonblack creature.
The trouble is it's not likely to be read correctly.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
As far as I know, there is only one card in the game where there is no priority-passing between the time when targets are selected for it and the time when the effect that requires those targets is applied. That card is Fatal Lore. It works the way it does because the choice of opponent isn't made until resolution, by which point the standard procedure for selecting targets has already long passed.However, is there a way for targets for a spell or ability to be chosen upon its resolution where there is no time between choice of targets and application of effect for players to have priority? I don't know how to word it, but the rules would be as follows:
- If such a spell or ability would resolve, choose legal targets for the spell as described in 601.2c. If you can, the spell will resolve as normal, but if you can't, the spell is countered upon resolution and put into your graveyard as normal (it doesn't resolve).
- If such a spell or ability is copied and an effect allows its targets to be changed, nothing happens, because during the process of casting the spell or activating the ability, targets for it were never chosen.
- Similarly, Spellskite, the flagbearer mechanic, and other similar mechanics do not apply.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Thanks for catching that. It appears the Gatherer ruling is a bit ambiguous.
However, my question still stands. Is there a way for targets to be chosen for a spell or ability during its resolution and have its effects be applied immediately after the choice of targets?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The only thing that choosing a target upon resolution would do as opposed to just "Choose a ____" would be to get stopped by things like hexproof or protection.
Groom Blade 1B
Instant
~'s target isn't chosen until it would resolve.
Destroy target nonblack creature.
That One Spell That Kills Six Creatures Whose Name I Forgot
Sorcery
~'s targets aren't chosen until it would resolve.
Destroy six target creatures.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
My Sarcasmometer™ is pinging, yet I am unsure whether you are serious or not that you forgot the name Hex.
It's more of a design experiment. Whereas split second is the "I do all the targeting now so that this spell can resolve 'immediately' without you having a chance at saving what I targeted", this would be the converse (i.e. "I do none of the targeting now so that this spell can resolve later, giving you a chance to guess what I'm about to target").
Both have the notion of "by the time I select targets for this thing, it'll be too late for you to respond" (for the most part, when speaking about split second).
Wow, seriously? I thought it would have a more complex name than that. But I suppose a Gatherer search would've cleared that up.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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Ah, yes. The wonders of the English language.
Yes, that's the point of this. If Groom Blade would resolve, its controller has an opportunity to choose any targets for it, with the same restrictions as though the spell were just being cast. This means that the controller can't choose creatures with shroud/hexproof/protection as the targets. It's simply a movement of the targeting procedure from when the spell is cast to when the spell would resolve.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Bizarrely, the following effect is intelligible:
Broom Blade
You may change the target of Broom Blade. Destroy target nonblack creature.
The trouble is it's not likely to be read correctly.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].