Consider Melira, Sylvok Outcast on the battlefield under my control. Now consider the following card:
Dude0 Creature - Whatever {Q}
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a -1/-1 counter on ~. If you do, you win the game.
0/2
I draw a card, and the ability triggers and resolves. I decide in favor of putting the -1/-1 counter on Dude. What happens?
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Melira's ability stops you from being able to put the -1/-1 counter on it, for whatever reason that might be.
This means, for instance, that you cannot pay the cost of Devoted Druid's second ability while you control Melira, Sylvok Outcast, any spell which requires a -1/-1 counter be put on a creature you control cannot be cast (as the costs cannot be paid), and effects that instruct you to put a -1/-1 counter on a creature you control will fail.
If you have an effect that says "You may put a -1/-1 counter on... If you don't, X", then you can't put the counter on a creature you control, and X will happen. Conversely, if the effect says "You may do [X]. If you don't, [Y, which involves putting -1/-1 counters on your creatures]", then you need not do X, and the default action of Y will resolve without effect.
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Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Now that I think about it, doesn't this rule cover the situation quite nicely?
117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
In this case, I do choose to pay the cost, and the "event that actually occurred" is nothing. But that the "event" is nothing shouldn't matter, because the "if" clause checks my decision to pay, and it doesn't matter that nothing happened.
Or am I reading this rule incorrectly? I know for certain that the last part of the rule refers to events that "actually occurred [during the process of paying the cost]", not events that "actually occurred [as a result of paying the cost]".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
The problem with the way you are reading it is that in this case, the cost would be an unpayable cost, so it would not be possible for you to attempt to pay the cost.
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, ~ enters tapped. If you control Platinum Emperion, you cannot pay that 2 life, so your decision to try to pay the 2 life is irrelevant. The default action of Godless Shrine entering the battlefield will happen.
Per Gatherer Ruling:
1/1/2011: You can't pay a cost that includes the payment of any amount of life other than 0 life.
The same idea applies here. I will try to find some better supporting evidence in the CR.
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Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Platinum Emperion, Angel of Jubilation, and Tatterkite are all pretty clear when trying to pay a cost to cast a spell or activate an ability. The problem here though is that the rules for making choices like this in a resolving spell or ability are not as well defined. I still think it would not work though.
As another corollary, Mindlock Orb says "Players can't search libraries." and has this ruling:
10/1/2008: If an effect says "You may search your library . . . If you do, shuffle your library," you can't choose to search, so you won't shuffle.
For this particular kind of ability, if you were worried about potential confusion, you could write it out a little more like Fathom Mage:
[trigger], you may put a -1/-1 counter on CARDNAME. If a -1/-1 counter is placed on CARDNAME this way, [effect].
What's stopping you from paying the optional cost is the following text from the section about Resolving Spells and Abilities:
Quote from CR 608.2d »
If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can’t choose an option that’s illegal or impossible...
Because Melira makes it impossible to choose to pay the optional cost, you can't do it.
How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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Consider Melira, Sylvok Outcast on the battlefield under my control. Now consider the following card:
Dude 0
Creature - Whatever {Q}
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a -1/-1 counter on ~. If you do, you win the game.
0/2
I draw a card, and the ability triggers and resolves. I decide in favor of putting the -1/-1 counter on Dude. What happens?
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
This means, for instance, that you cannot pay the cost of Devoted Druid's second ability while you control Melira, Sylvok Outcast, any spell which requires a -1/-1 counter be put on a creature you control cannot be cast (as the costs cannot be paid), and effects that instruct you to put a -1/-1 counter on a creature you control will fail.
If you have an effect that says "You may put a -1/-1 counter on... If you don't, X", then you can't put the counter on a creature you control, and X will happen. Conversely, if the effect says "You may do [X]. If you don't, [Y, which involves putting -1/-1 counters on your creatures]", then you need not do X, and the default action of Y will resolve without effect.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
In this case, I do choose to pay the cost, and the "event that actually occurred" is nothing. But that the "event" is nothing shouldn't matter, because the "if" clause checks my decision to pay, and it doesn't matter that nothing happened.
Or am I reading this rule incorrectly? I know for certain that the last part of the rule refers to events that "actually occurred [during the process of paying the cost]", not events that "actually occurred [as a result of paying the cost]".
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
For example, the shocklands. Godless Shrine, et al.
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, ~ enters tapped. If you control Platinum Emperion, you cannot pay that 2 life, so your decision to try to pay the 2 life is irrelevant. The default action of Godless Shrine entering the battlefield will happen.
Per Gatherer Ruling:
The same idea applies here. I will try to find some better supporting evidence in the CR.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
As another corollary, Mindlock Orb says "Players can't search libraries." and has this ruling:
For this particular kind of ability, if you were worried about potential confusion, you could write it out a little more like Fathom Mage:
Because Melira makes it impossible to choose to pay the optional cost, you can't do it.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool.
Check out my Tapped Out profile and comment on my decks!
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall