ZeDork, no one is playing the ability -- it's a static ability with a replacement effect, not an activated ability. That wording doesn't work. The counter thing comes up because there's otherwise no means of keeping track of whether it's done its thing earlier in the turn or not. (Consider the Phoenix with the doom counter -- LC forgets which card it specifically is.)Okay, a Glasskite-ish solution: "The first time each turn this would leave play, it doesn't." But that just makes it leave a second time when SBEs are checked and find it still has lethal damage on it, or zero toughness.
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But that doesn't solve the problem of lethal damage and toughness-reducing effects.
"I Shock your guy. It dies."
"No it doesn't. It has Manifest. So it stays in play."
"Yeah, but it still has 2 damage on it. So it dies."
"Shucks."
"I Enfeeblement your guy. It dies."
"No it doesn't. It has Manifest. So it stays in play."
"Yeah, but it still has zero toughness. So it dies."
"Shucks."
"I block your guy with Grizzly Bears. It dies."
"No it doesn't. It has Manifest. So it stays in play."
"Yeah, but it still has 2 damage on it. So it dies."
"Shucks."
For Manifest to actually do anything useful, the creature must leave play, then reenter play anew, free of all the annoying damage and toughness-reducing effects.
(Whenever this creature leaves play, return it to play and it loses Manifest until end of turn.)
Yeah I'm with Puchik's verson. Heres a new ability I'm working on.
Adapt X- A creature with adapt may be swapped with another creature with Adapt in your hand as long as they share their Adapts. So a creature Adapt Bear could be swapped with only Adapt Bear. To "swap" a creature you do just that. Switch places with the one in your hand. It is attached with all cards attached to the first creature. It is considered blocking or attacking if the creature in play was. It has all counters that were on the creature. If it was tapped/untapped everything is exactly the same. Adapt is a static ability that does not use the stack and can not be responded to.
Manifestation - {cost} (You may pay {cost}. If you do, if this permanent would leave play this turn, unless it is sacrificed, it remains in play instead.)
Of all presented, I prefer this version. One line, no damage/decay problems, no leaving/returning to play trickery, and a mildly inelegant yet clear anti-saccing clause. Only slight change I'd recommend is to make it a proper activated ability, ie:
Manifestation - {cost} ({cost}: Whenever this permanent would leave play this turn, unless it is sacrificed, it remains in play instead.)
I don't think there are any memory issues, as it works pretty much the same way as regeneration and damage prevention shields—they only last until end of turn, and is usually pretty easy to remember back that far. In rare cases were players do get confused, they can usually see what mana has been tapped and work backwards.
Some have suggested that this mechanic should allow the creature to be vulnerable to lethal damage and decay. I agree that that would be an interesting mechanic and likely have just as much if not more design space, but think it goes to far from the designer's original vision.
The "glasskite"-like once per turn limitation is interesting, but we haven't found an elegant way of wording it. I believe the ability above is also more general: we could use it to mimic the glasskite version more easily than the other way around.
I'll raise a motion to accept this as a final version; does anyone second?
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@LSK: Yeah, cool, we'll post each one as we finish with it.
I'm fine with Manifestation not working against decay and damage. However, how do you explain it to Timmy. I see severe confusion in the virtual playership.
The way I understand it, "Timmy" is far from being synonymous with "new player". There is a fair bit of overlap, as most new players start out as Timmy and few players (especially tourney players) retain their Timmy-ness after gaining a more in depth understanding of the game. But there's still a large section of the experienced player population that is predominantly Timmy, as well as a significant amount of residual Timmy in most Johnnys and Spikes (R&D tries to tap into this occassionally, with the size matters theme in Scourge and the Dragon cycle in ChK).
As Manifestation would only appear in a expert expansion, its not intended for new players, and is about on par with the complexity of indestructible.
Timmy, in fact, would probably like the mechanic better than either Johnny or Spike, as he'd be the most willing to pay high prices to keep his favourite creature in play.
Le Chat would accept "Manifestation - {cost} ({cost}: The next time this permanent would leave play this turn, unless it is sacrificed, it remains in play instead.)"
The "whenever" wording is slightly misleading, and would also mean that a single payment would cover the entire turn.
Motion to change final wording; does anyone second?
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NO. Dude, you don't get it. THIS ABILITY IS USELESS. Without saccing the only things that will remove it are damage or toughness<=0, both of which will remain if it doesn't leave play for some period.
Puchik's wording is perfect, though you can add the no-sac clause if you want.
This version of manifest -- it seems everyone agrees the original is too powerful -- would make the creature immune to bounce/flicker/RFG effects. It would leave it still vulnerable to burn, -X/-X, and sacrifice.
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This is getting kind of confusing as there are two debates happening at the same time:
Should Manifest protect against lethal damage and -X/-X effects? (Yes/no)
If it does survive lethal damage and -X/-X effects, should this be done using (A) a regeneration-like sheild or (B) a leave play and then return to play effect? (A/B)
If everyone could post their prefrence on both cases without argument (I think we've heard from all sides already) over the next day, I think we'll have a clearer idea of the current consensus here. Please try to keep further discussion to a minimum until everyone's had a chance to do so (about a day should be sufficient).
Le Chat's preference is that it not protect against destroy and -X/-X effects, making it a counterpart to, rather than expansion on, indestructibility. (Yes, Le Chat realizes indestructibility doesn't protect against -X/-X.)
This is entirely in keeping with the original version submitted.
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Stax, the thing about your version is the insanity with CIP effects. It's like Squee; but from in-play instead of your hand.
(That's actually my version, although Stax seconded it.)
I don't see any insanity, since the ability can only manifest itself (sorry, couldn't resist) once per turn. At the most, you get one CIP effect per permanent with Manifest per turn. Not worse than Lifeline, anyway.
1. Yes. It's a magical field around the creature, able to save it from anything, even if only once per turn.
2. B. The vanquished foe disappeares into a brief astral journey, where he is told 'your work on Earth is not yet done'.
1. No. Put at least some balance into the mechanic. As I have already said I don't like the idea for a permanent to be completely immune to anything that will remove it form the board. Even now it's a huge "energy field" protecting it from (non-damage) destroy, bury and remove but more importantly from bounce of any kind. Which is unique byt itself.
I second Le Chat's idea for this to be a counterpart to indestructability when this mechanic is in motion at all...
We seemed to have stalled in the development process here. To further things along, Le Chat offers the following:
520.MAN Manifest
520.MANa Manifest is an activated ability. "Manifest {cost}" means "{Cost}: The next time this permanent would leave play this turn, unless it is sacrificed, it remains in play instead." This is a replacement ability similar to regeneration (CR 419.6b).
520.MANb Manifesting a creature doesn't remove damage from it or prevent it from being out into a graveyard due to state-based effects, such as having 0 or less toughness.
520.MANc If a permanent has multiple instances of manifest, any of its manifest abilities may be used. Playing a manifest ability will only create one repalcement shield, even if the permanent has multiple instances of manifest.
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Le Chat, although we seemed to have minority regarding the current wording for Manifest, I won't be the one to complain this time You're the workshop director after all I guess.
Another thing, myself, you and even jwanders seconded the name "GUILE" for the first mechanic in the queue. Please change the name of Outrun at your convenience.
Now on to Critical State: I don't want to sound overly critical or impolite but I think this mechanic is little too weak to be actually keyworded - compared to Threshold for instance. But WOTC had already created worse pseudo-keywords (Radiance, Sweep) for so few cards...
So if no one else supports this opinion (what I suggest) I would leave it as it is, it has some potential after all. I would only change the name to either Danger or Crisis or something even better.
I like the 7 life idea, it has a nice aestetic parallel to Threshold. Having to compare with other players' life totals is clunky. Of course the mechanic itself isn't very complicated rulewise, but allows for interesting designs. Flavorwise, I suggest the name 'Distress'.
502.DIS. Distress
502.DISa Distress is a characteristic-setting ability, written “Distress— [text].” It alters the rules text of the object it’s on, based on a condition. The text can create any kind of ability. “Distress — [text]” means “As long as you have seven or less life, [this object] has ‘[text].’”
502.DISb Spells and permanents with distress have the distress text only if their controller has seven or less life. Otherwise, the text after “Distress —” is treated as though it did not appear on the spell or permanent.
502.DISc An instant or sorcery with distress has the distress text only while the spell is on the stack. An artifact, creature, enchantment, or land with distress has the distress text only if the permanent is in play.
Regarding Manifest, the way Le Chat figures, it can always be re-submitted. That being said, for both Critical State and Distress, we need to keep the original wording in mind. If you want to submit Distress as a mechanic, go for it -- but currently we're discussing critical state.
Le Chat's mind gets fuzzy with too much math (even math this simple). It boils down to "As long as each opponent has more than twice your life total, you have critical state."
Like threshold, players don't really have critical state; their permanents do. In fact, they don't even have "critical state"; rather, some text becomes revealed as long as that condition is met.
This is one of those areas where having actual cards to look at would help, because all it does is create a new condition for abilities to work under; it doesn't do anything itself. Judging the power level of the ability is impossible, because it has no direct effect on the game. Judging its playworthiness -- well, as many said, it's just an alternate version of threshold.
There is one item of note with this card (it crops up with Threshold as well), which is that it's possible to step into critical state and play an activated ability only present with critical state that causes you to gain enough life to lose critical state. If this happened while other critical-state-dependent abilities were on the stack ... hmm.
Puchik, we'll use your CR text (but keep it in line with the original wording) and ... move on.
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Fadprint N - Zone (Fadprint N - ZONE (When this card comes into play remove N cards from ZONE. At the beginning of your upkeep, return a card imprinted on this card to zone. If you can't, sacrifice this card.)
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Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Manifest {cost} (The next time this permanent would leave play this turn, it doesn't. This loses Manifest until end of turn.)
Prevents combo's and is still simple.
That is elegant.
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
"I Shock your guy. It dies."
"No it doesn't. It has Manifest. So it stays in play."
"Yeah, but it still has 2 damage on it. So it dies."
"Shucks."
"I Enfeeblement your guy. It dies."
"No it doesn't. It has Manifest. So it stays in play."
"Yeah, but it still has zero toughness. So it dies."
"Shucks."
"I block your guy with Grizzly Bears. It dies."
"No it doesn't. It has Manifest. So it stays in play."
"Yeah, but it still has 2 damage on it. So it dies."
"Shucks."
For Manifest to actually do anything useful, the creature must leave play, then reenter play anew, free of all the annoying damage and toughness-reducing effects.
(Whenever this creature leaves play, return it to play and it loses Manifest until end of turn.)
(Whenever this creature leaves play, return it to play and it loses Manifest until end of turn.)
Adapt X- A creature with adapt may be swapped with another creature with Adapt in your hand as long as they share their Adapts. So a creature Adapt Bear could be swapped with only Adapt Bear.
To "swap" a creature you do just that. Switch places with the one in your hand. It is attached with all cards attached to the first creature. It is considered blocking or attacking if the creature in play was. It has all counters that were on the creature. If it was tapped/untapped everything is exactly the same.
Adapt is a static ability that does not use the stack and can not be responded to.
I need snappy reminder text though.
Manifestation - {cost} ({cost}: Whenever this permanent would leave play this turn, unless it is sacrificed, it remains in play instead.)
I don't think there are any memory issues, as it works pretty much the same way as regeneration and damage prevention shields—they only last until end of turn, and is usually pretty easy to remember back that far. In rare cases were players do get confused, they can usually see what mana has been tapped and work backwards.
Some have suggested that this mechanic should allow the creature to be vulnerable to lethal damage and decay. I agree that that would be an interesting mechanic and likely have just as much if not more design space, but think it goes to far from the designer's original vision.
The "glasskite"-like once per turn limitation is interesting, but we haven't found an elegant way of wording it. I believe the ability above is also more general: we could use it to mimic the glasskite version more easily than the other way around.
I'll raise a motion to accept this as a final version; does anyone second?
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@LSK: Yeah, cool, we'll post each one as we finish with it.
As Manifestation would only appear in a expert expansion, its not intended for new players, and is about on par with the complexity of indestructible.
Timmy, in fact, would probably like the mechanic better than either Johnny or Spike, as he'd be the most willing to pay high prices to keep his favourite creature in play.
The "whenever" wording is slightly misleading, and would also mean that a single payment would cover the entire turn.
Motion to change final wording; does anyone second?
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Puchik's wording is perfect, though you can add the no-sac clause if you want.
This version of manifest -- it seems everyone agrees the original is too powerful -- would make the creature immune to bounce/flicker/RFG effects. It would leave it still vulnerable to burn, -X/-X, and sacrifice.
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
2. B, less words, stays true to flavor, more design space.
This is entirely in keeping with the original version submitted.
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Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
(That's actually my version, although Stax seconded it.)
I don't see any insanity, since the ability can only manifest itself (sorry, couldn't resist) once per turn. At the most, you get one CIP effect per permanent with Manifest per turn. Not worse than Lifeline, anyway.
1. Yes. It's a magical field around the creature, able to save it from anything, even if only once per turn.
2. B. The vanquished foe disappeares into a brief astral journey, where he is told 'your work on Earth is not yet done'.
I second Le Chat's idea for this to be a counterpart to indestructability when this mechanic is in motion at all...
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520.MAN Manifest
520.MANa Manifest is an activated ability. "Manifest {cost}" means "{Cost}: The next time this permanent would leave play this turn, unless it is sacrificed, it remains in play instead." This is a replacement ability similar to regeneration (CR 419.6b).
520.MANb Manifesting a creature doesn't remove damage from it or prevent it from being out into a graveyard due to state-based effects, such as having 0 or less toughness.
520.MANc If a permanent has multiple instances of manifest, any of its manifest abilities may be used. Playing a manifest ability will only create one repalcement shield, even if the permanent has multiple instances of manifest.
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Critical State—Effect (You are in a critical state as long as your life total is not higher than half the life total of any other player.)
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Another thing, myself, you and even jwanders seconded the name "GUILE" for the first mechanic in the queue. Please change the name of Outrun at your convenience.
Now on to Critical State: I don't want to sound overly critical or impolite but I think this mechanic is little too weak to be actually keyworded - compared to Threshold for instance. But WOTC had already created worse pseudo-keywords (Radiance, Sweep) for so few cards...
So if no one else supports this opinion (what I suggest) I would leave it as it is, it has some potential after all. I would only change the name to either Danger or Crisis or something even better.
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Tired of losing to mana problems or interested to learn more about Magic's mana system?
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502.DIS. Distress
502.DISa Distress is a characteristic-setting ability, written “Distress— [text].” It alters the rules text of the object it’s on, based on a condition. The text can create any kind of ability. “Distress — [text]” means “As long as you have seven or less life, [this object] has ‘[text].’”
502.DISb Spells and permanents with distress have the distress text only if their controller has seven or less life. Otherwise, the text after “Distress —” is treated as though it did not appear on the spell or permanent.
502.DISc An instant or sorcery with distress has the distress text only while the spell is on the stack. An artifact, creature, enchantment, or land with distress has the distress text only if the permanent is in play.
Le Chat's mind gets fuzzy with too much math (even math this simple). It boils down to "As long as each opponent has more than twice your life total, you have critical state."
Like threshold, players don't really have critical state; their permanents do. In fact, they don't even have "critical state"; rather, some text becomes revealed as long as that condition is met.
This is one of those areas where having actual cards to look at would help, because all it does is create a new condition for abilities to work under; it doesn't do anything itself. Judging the power level of the ability is impossible, because it has no direct effect on the game. Judging its playworthiness -- well, as many said, it's just an alternate version of threshold.
There is one item of note with this card (it crops up with Threshold as well), which is that it's possible to step into critical state and play an activated ability only present with critical state that causes you to gain enough life to lose critical state. If this happened while other critical-state-dependent abilities were on the stack ... hmm.
Puchik, we'll use your CR text (but keep it in line with the original wording) and ... move on.
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.
Fadprint N - Zone (Fadprint N - ZONE (When this card comes into play remove N cards from ZONE. At the beginning of your upkeep, return a card imprinted on this card to zone. If you can't, sacrifice this card.)
Instant
Target spell or permanent's tone becomes playful.