In general, looking at magics history, having creatures in your graveyard is an easier source to abuse/fuel then discarding from your hand. At least in constructed. So no, I don't think your "nerf" is sufficient.
Well, Pack Rat didn't really break in any other format than Standard, so I'd be worried about that only. And in such format, usually the graveyard isn't that easy to fuel. Also, take in consideration that you must exile a creature, and first you have to find a way to put one in there. With Pack Rat you could discard any card, and you'd draw a fresh one each turn. Anyway, I respect the critique, I just like to argue and compare points of view when it comes to design and balance.
Until such a time as someone with a P.hD in Statistics is willing to come forth and design a better system, all scoring systems will be flawed in some way. You can make a case for the DCC and MCC having flaws in their systems. The list is simple and answers many problems that teams had, especially with a low number of players.
Of course, this discussion is here, among other reasons, to allow people to offer different scoring systems and debate them, so if you've got a new idea, I'm all for hearing it.
Or, if you truly think the teams are a better option, you can always host yourself and use whatever method stikes you as best.
I'm not claiming I have the solution, just wanted to bring the topic to the table. I always wanted to host one, but I never find the time...hopefully someday I can do it.
I advise you to read the last few pages of this very thread, were I (and a couple others) brought up the issues with the team system, which didn't work well at all, at least lately (but maybe ever).
The problem with the list is that, each round, you are competing against someone in 5 out of 6 critiques, another player in 4 out 6, etc...
This should NOT happen with the list system in theory as long as it's well used and there are at least seven players competing. The list should be remade each round including only people who posted that round, so that each person is critiqued by six ACTIVE players. There might be the problem of people not posting critiques, but that is a problem in whichever system you use. In the list system, a normalization is used to take care of such situations if they arise.
I don't think I made myself clear, which doesn't happen infrequently If you have the list ABCDEFGHIJK.. and judging the six above, players E and F will be competing for the same points when G, H, I, J, and K are judging. The same F player will compete with D when G, H, I and J are judging. And so on. Now to the next quote you broke down:
This means that those two guys are competing for the same points, while the remaining N-2 players get critiques from other sets. I realize it happens to everyone, but you're not leveling the field this way because worse cards can still get better scores than you, just because you didn't face them directly. With teams that happens as well, of course, but you are not in the same race, so it's fine.
I'm not sure I understand this fully, but as Asrama already said, there is no perfect system. Each system has its pro and cons. Nobody ever said the list system is perfect, I know I said it's the best we have as of now, much better than teams. In the end, what makes the list better than the teams (IMO of course) is that the former takes care of people dropping much better than the latter, and at least since I'm an active poster here (about a year and a half) there is always a lot of people dropping. I can't see any other real issue with the list again outside of people not posting critiques, but that would be a problem for teams too, and a worse one for teams as I don't know of any normalization method that was applied with teams.
I get that the lack of players might be an issue for the team structure, but I really think the list option has many flaws.
I honestly can't see them. I see a lot of flaws with teams instead.
Like I said above, I do not have the perfect system either. I wanted to discuss it, because it feels flawed to me, but maybe the problems I'm mentioning are consequence of something else I can't describe. Or maybe I'm just missing the bigger picture and can'r remember all pros and cons team structure has. Anyway, I'll read some pages back and try to think of something.
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Trophyless guy.
Thought of the Month: I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
In general, looking at magics history, having creatures in your graveyard is an easier source to abuse/fuel then discarding from your hand. At least in constructed. So no, I don't think your "nerf" is sufficient.
Well, Pack Rat didn't really break in any other format than Standard, so I'd be worried about that only. And in such format, usually the graveyard isn't that easy to fuel. Also, take in consideration that you must exile a creature, and first you have to find a way to put one in there. With Pack Rat you could discard any card, and you'd draw a fresh one each turn. Anyway, I respect the critique, I just like to argue and compare points of view when it comes to design and balance.
Bolded for emphasis. This is where our issue lies. I judge based on standard. If your opinion is that pack rat was too good in standard, and your card is about as good, then youre card is too powerful by my definition. Your card is more likely to be powerful then pack rats was in older formats too.
The whole part about exiling a creature was part of my initial consideration. It's not a big hurdle to fulfil. If anything, it means in standard it would be harder to have it replicating turn 3 like with pack rat, but the turns after that it only gets easier and easier the pack rat, to the point where you start making multiple and removing the original one/all of them doesn't matter.
I have no issue debating critiques a little, and there are have been times where I have been objectively wrong and conceded as much, but this is not one of those times. We just respectfully disagree.
glurman: Destroying creatures with high powers is a niche specifically carved out for white as opposed to black, which if its not killing indiscriminately and decides references power, looks for power equal to or less. I think this fits the theme of challenge well in terms of design, but really should be white and flavored differently.
glurman: Destroying creatures with high powers is a niche specifically carved out for white as opposed to black, which if its not killing indiscriminately and decides references power, looks for power equal to or less. I think this fits the theme of challenge well in terms of design, but really should be white and flavored differently.
You do realize you're citing a Planar Chaos card, a sets whose whole purpose was color shifting abilities? In terms of the color pie, pretty much every card in that set is invalid. I looked and found no other examples when I wrote my original comment.
Specifically Big Game Hunter was a a card that was shifting the ability of Intrepid Hero. White has numerous cards which do the "Kill 4 power or greater" effect, unlike black which only has the aforementioned Planar Chaos color pie breaking example.
This just happens to be one of those time where you are objectively wrong. Just read through that link of Maros blog to his numerous comments on Planar Chaos confusing the color pie and not something you can base design expectations off of.
The only black example the games history of "Destroy power 4 or greater" is Big Game Hunter, a planar chaos card where the color pie was re-imagined as a "what if" alternative reality to what we've come to know colors as (or rather "knew colors as" since that set is about 10 years old now not making it the most compelling example of contemporary design regardless of other issues).
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I think the arbitrary "Black cares about killing power x or less and white cares about x or greater (typically 4)" an unnecessary restriction.
I get that it's probably black preying on/exploiting the weak and white trying to empower the meek or whatever, but why the hell can't black just want to kill something big for the sake of killing something big?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I think the arbitrary "Black cares about killing power x or less and white cares about x or greater (typically 4)" an unnecessary restriction.
I get that it's probably black preying on/exploiting the weak and white trying to empower the meek or whatever, but why the hell can't black just want to kill something big for the sake of killing something big?
Your mistake is that it isn't arbitrary. The color pie is a system based on iteration of mechanical needs, flavor requirements and giving each color distinct identities and gameplay. Blurring these has real consequences.
I'd suggest reading this article I wrote on exactly this subject. Color Pie: An In-depth Guide
@Doombringer: The start date is the 1st of the month. First round is also the signup. I'd give the first round about five days of design, so everybody can sign up, and the rest of the rounds should have about 4 days of design. The critiques for round 1 and 2 can be done while the design phase for the next round is up. After that, you can do a top 8, semifinals and finals or the shorter version of top 6, then finals with three players.
Here's an example schedule for you, feel free to change it in any way that suits you.
Jan 1st: Round 1/signup
Jan 6th: Round 2, Critiques for Round 1
Jan 11th: Round 3, critiques for Round 2
Jan 15th: Critiques for round 3
Jan 18th: Top 8
Jan 22nd: Critiques for round 8
Jan 25th: Semifinals
Jan 29th: Critiques for semifinals
Feb 1st: Finals
Feb 5th: Poll up
Feb 10th: Poll ends.
I'm thinking of having the theme be "Fixing common mistakes", things like using Planar Chaos as a color pie example or making an overstuffed rare etc.
I'd totally support that theme. It sounds both fun and informative, and it's not easy to find a theme that is both at the same time!
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Question about the current contest round 2: Can we change the color weight in the mana cost of the card? For instance, if I wanted to colorshift a monocolored card to two colors, but there's only one colored mana symbol in the cost, can I change one of the generic mana to the second color?
Question about the current contest round 2: Can we change the color weight in the mana cost of the card? For instance, if I wanted to colorshift a monocolored card to two colors, but there's only one colored mana symbol in the cost, can I change one of the generic mana to the second color?
Considering I'm allowing gold colorshifts I'll lean towards yes. However having a 3G spell turning into a RRRR spell is less likely to be acceptable than a 3G -> 2RR change.
I've got a quick question before I get into my round 1 judgments. Are we supposed to create an iconic card, or just a card using an iconic creature type (one of the five listed in the challenge)? I have been working under the assumption that it is the latter, but after reading glurman's judgments, I'm wondering if I've misinterpreted the challenge.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
I've got a quick question before I get into my round 1 judgments. Are we supposed to create an iconic card, or just a card using an iconic creature type (one of the five listed in the challenge)? I have been working under the assumption that it is the latter, but after reading glurman's judgments, I'm wondering if I've misinterpreted the challenge.
I interpreted it as both. Angel is an iconic creature, and create a card that could be a poster child for said creature type. I wouldn't put much credence into what I have to say, however, since I didn't even check my line count and failed the challenge immediately
I personally took it as "design a creature that has one of the iconic creature types" (aka Angel, Sphinx, Demon, Dragon, Hydra). The word "iconic" has a very specific meaning in Magic design, even though I can see where the confusion comes from.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
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Well, Pack Rat didn't really break in any other format than Standard, so I'd be worried about that only. And in such format, usually the graveyard isn't that easy to fuel. Also, take in consideration that you must exile a creature, and first you have to find a way to put one in there. With Pack Rat you could discard any card, and you'd draw a fresh one each turn. Anyway, I respect the critique, I just like to argue and compare points of view when it comes to design and balance.
I'm not claiming I have the solution, just wanted to bring the topic to the table. I always wanted to host one, but I never find the time...hopefully someday I can do it.
I will have a look.
I don't think I made myself clear, which doesn't happen infrequently If you have the list ABCDEFGHIJK.. and judging the six above, players E and F will be competing for the same points when G, H, I, J, and K are judging. The same F player will compete with D when G, H, I and J are judging. And so on. Now to the next quote you broke down:
Like I said above, I do not have the perfect system either. I wanted to discuss it, because it feels flawed to me, but maybe the problems I'm mentioning are consequence of something else I can't describe. Or maybe I'm just missing the bigger picture and can'r remember all pros and cons team structure has. Anyway, I'll read some pages back and try to think of something.
Thought of the Month:
I gave up from trying to require the 'i' on my name: SolesticIo
Bolded for emphasis. This is where our issue lies. I judge based on standard. If your opinion is that pack rat was too good in standard, and your card is about as good, then youre card is too powerful by my definition. Your card is more likely to be powerful then pack rats was in older formats too.
The whole part about exiling a creature was part of my initial consideration. It's not a big hurdle to fulfil. If anything, it means in standard it would be harder to have it replicating turn 3 like with pack rat, but the turns after that it only gets easier and easier the pack rat, to the point where you start making multiple and removing the original one/all of them doesn't matter.
I have no issue debating critiques a little, and there are have been times where I have been objectively wrong and conceded as much, but this is not one of those times. We just respectfully disagree.
Yuh huh
You do realize you're citing a Planar Chaos card, a sets whose whole purpose was color shifting abilities? In terms of the color pie, pretty much every card in that set is invalid. I looked and found no other examples when I wrote my original comment.
Specifically Big Game Hunter was a a card that was shifting the ability of Intrepid Hero. White has numerous cards which do the "Kill 4 power or greater" effect, unlike black which only has the aforementioned Planar Chaos color pie breaking example.
The only black example the games history of "Destroy power 4 or greater" is Big Game Hunter, a planar chaos card where the color pie was re-imagined as a "what if" alternative reality to what we've come to know colors as (or rather "knew colors as" since that set is about 10 years old now not making it the most compelling example of contemporary design regardless of other issues).
White examples include Intrepid Hero, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Hidden Dragonslayer, Radiant's Judgment, Reprisal, Retribution of the Meek, Smite the Monstrous, and Vanquish the Foul.
So you can plug your ears and and disagree based off no evidence, or accept the numerous examples and sources referenced.
I get that it's probably black preying on/exploiting the weak and white trying to empower the meek or whatever, but why the hell can't black just want to kill something big for the sake of killing something big?
Your mistake is that it isn't arbitrary. The color pie is a system based on iteration of mechanical needs, flavor requirements and giving each color distinct identities and gameplay. Blurring these has real consequences.
I'd suggest reading this article I wrote on exactly this subject.
Color Pie: An In-depth Guide
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Pretty sure I'm out of the CCL at any rate.
I'll stand firm.
Sure. I'll think of a theme in the next few days.
Its been a while since I've done it so whats the usually start date and turnaround for each round?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Here's an example schedule for you, feel free to change it in any way that suits you.
Jan 1st: Round 1/signup
Jan 6th: Round 2, Critiques for Round 1
Jan 11th: Round 3, critiques for Round 2
Jan 15th: Critiques for round 3
Jan 18th: Top 8
Jan 22nd: Critiques for round 8
Jan 25th: Semifinals
Jan 29th: Critiques for semifinals
Feb 1st: Finals
Feb 5th: Poll up
Feb 10th: Poll ends.
Host, December 2015: A Winter Wonderland? - R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL April 2014: A Game of Fate - Signup|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinal|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL December 2012: Spy Games - Signup|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL November 2010: The Perfect Crime - Signup|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL August 2009: A Commander's Journey: Signups|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
I've got tons of art from the web. Want art for a render? PM me! Want to create your own collection? Start here!
I'm thinking of having the theme be "Fixing common mistakes", things like using Planar Chaos as a color pie example or making an overstuffed rare etc.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
I'd totally support that theme. It sounds both fun and informative, and it's not easy to find a theme that is both at the same time!
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
lol
Yeah. That.
Also, about that: Look here and here. You may want to reconsider.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Considering I'm allowing gold colorshifts I'll lean towards yes. However having a 3G spell turning into a RRRR spell is less likely to be acceptable than a 3G -> 2RR change.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Host, December 2015: A Winter Wonderland? - R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL April 2014: A Game of Fate - Signup|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinal|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL December 2012: Spy Games - Signup|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL November 2010: The Perfect Crime - Signup|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
Host, CCL August 2009: A Commander's Journey: Signups|R1|R2|R3|Top 8|Semifinals|Finals|Poll
I've got tons of art from the web. Want art for a render? PM me! Want to create your own collection? Start here!
I interpreted it as both. Angel is an iconic creature, and create a card that could be a poster child for said creature type. I wouldn't put much credence into what I have to say, however, since I didn't even check my line count and failed the challenge immediately
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)