Edit: Bang up job on the MCC thus far, by the way. Fun stuff!
Edit2: The Virus idea I came up with for the first round has inspired me to start thinking about an all new set. Thanks for that.
Edit3: BTW, is it safe for me to start posting my ideas about my Virus set in other places in CCC? I've been holding off posting anything as to not violate the rules of the first round, but I'm not sure they apply anymore.
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
It's not really the evil part I'm enjoying as much as the creativity. Having to try to convey an entire new race to someone with just one card is quite the challenge. Honestly, I feel like I cheated a little bit by using Virus, since everyone already knows what that is. It passes technically though, Virus certainly isn't a class. Gotta love loop holes.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
I did intend the first challenge to be difficult. Magic is a game of mechanics and flavor that defined the CCG genre. It created many unique fantasy monsters that have their own identity. Being able to convey that in a single card is something that is routine in magic design, but takes a lot of skill to have all the parts line up. It should be emphasized. I gave the direction of evil and villainous creatures because those are both some of the most iconic and some of the most important to create an interesting narrative. If your villains are sub pair, no one will care about your heroes. After all, would Batman or Spiderman be interesting if all they stopped was petty theft?
Some players tried to do a unique creation and others, like yourself, took an existing idea that they felt could fit the challenge. The results were mixed. It is harder to create something entirely new, but taking something with preconceived ideas already attached to it poses it's own challenges, especially when interpreted by another.
Wow, I read that qualification and still went ahead with it. I need to read more carefully and actually think about things even when I think I have a cool card. I think I disconnected between the examples of pumping or granting abilities and generating tokens. As dumb as that is and all.
Don't feel too bad PsyOp, the card I was asking IcariiFA about was actually almost exactly the same card as the first one you posted. The only differences were mine was a mono-blue sorcery that only counted cards put into an opponent's graveyard from his or her library (I was even considering changing mine to U/B). I'd say great minds, but we both missed the whole challenge part.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
@Bravelion...Thank you for your judgment. It is thorough and insightful as usual. That said, are you sure the wording for the reminder text is wrong? I took it straight from Sedris, the Traitor King. Does the fact that Corpse Rotation is in the graveyard change the wording?
(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
While I understand that formatting is an important aspect of card making, and is part of the MCC judging rubric, I feel that deducting a 1/2 point for using dashes instead of bullet points for a modal card is a bit harsh. As far as I know, there are only two ways to go about making bullet points on this forum. The first is to use the {list}{*}{/list} method. I believe this results in an additional space after the list that will potentially cause you to lose points for incorrect formatting. The second is to use the alt 7 (I think that's right) method. As far as I know, this is only possible if you have a number pad on your keyboard, which my laptop does not. I post all of my cards from my laptop and, because of this, I tend to avoid modal spells when posting cards in the MCC (the DCC tends to be a bit more lax on such things). Anyway my point is, at some point you're not really judging people based on their card making skills as much as you are their computer knowledge and access to a keyboard with a number pad. I'd hate to see perfectly good designers turn away from the community out of frustration over such things.
One last thing, please notice that I use phrases such as "as far as know" and "I believe" as much as possible in my posts. I have never claimed to be an aficionado on anything pertaining to computers or card making, I am just voicing my thoughts on the matter, feel free to respectfully correct any inaccuracies.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Don't feel bad about formating. It's part of the quality of the card. Standards are important as they give uniformity to the layout of the card and make them more universally understandable. It's just like saying grammar is not important, but when you see mispellings you cannot ignore them and feel they are affecting the general quality of a card. The details make the difference between a professional-looking product and an amateurish tentative.
Of course in the end some judges are more rigorous about these aspects while others tend to be more "gentle" with them. I love harsh judgings from this point of view since they help me understand the standards better and come up with more realistic wordings closer to what WotC is printing. But then again, I am a bit of a grammar and formatting nazi even in real-work situations on the project I am working on.
I share this 100%. Thanks Tilwin, it's like you wrote this taking it right from my brain. That's exactly how I see this. I didn't write two whole articles on grammar, formatting and quality for nothing (you can see them in my signature, they're the two "Mark of quality" ones, and a third one will surely come sooner or later). As a judge, I expect contestants to know how to correctly format and type cards, just as much as I expect them to cost cards reasonably and to avoid blatantly broken cards.
By the way, there are many ways to make a bullet point. I can think of four right away: two are those Flatline already mentioned (use [list] tags, which should be avoided because it leaves an extra line break at the end of the list, and typing ALT + 7 on the numeric keypad). Another is typing ALT + 0149 sequentially on the numeric keypad while keeping ALT pressed. Finally, if you are in Windows and don't have a numeric keypad, you can always just copy it from the character map.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
While the discussion about bullet points is happening, I want to point out that on at least one occasion the forum has prevented me from posting for having "invalid characters in the post" something about latin characters, which was resolved by removing my alt-code bullet points. When the forum doesn't even consistently allow for bullet pointing the way people want, I think its time for a bit of leniency, at least with accepting the extra space of the [list] tag. After all, that is the forum's officially supported bullet pointing method. Seems really unfair to penalize people for using that (not that the specific example is such a case).
List tags are malformed.
Now that Fearless Feline has finalized his judgments, I'd like to share a few thoughts. First, I'd like to give props to Groovelord for a job well done. I feel like he did the best job in the first round of getting across the flavor of his race (no offense to any others). I'm not sure I see the Gnorts as a menace like the Eldrazi or Phyrexia, but I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on what a Gnort is. Good job with only one card!
With that out of the way, a few thoughts on my card (I actually really liked it for once). I definitely agree that this card is not green mechanically. I made another version of it that had a mono black mana cost ( ) , but the compost cost was green ( ). I didn't like that version as much because I felt that meant I needed to make the card cost six. I like it a lot better at five. I also made a version that shuffled the creatures back into their owner's library. I feel like that makes it a little greener, but it's a lot wordier (no room for flavor text). Anyway, any thoughts on these alternate versions of the card would be much appreciated. You could PM them to me, if you like.
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(22 Total) - October 2014; December 2014; January 2015; April 2015; June 2015; August 2015; September 2015; November 2015; December 2015(T); January 2016; March 2016(T); April 2016; June 2016; October 2016; December 2016(T); February 2017; April 2017; December 2017; November 2018(T); January 2019; April 2019; June 2019
(8 Total) - May 2015; May 2016; June 2016; August 2016; October 2016; December 2016; October 2017; May 2019
(7 Total) - September 2015; October 2015; January 2016; March 2016; April 2016; July 2016(T); March 2019(T)
Thanks for the judgment and especially for the caught up inappropriate wording. I should have indeed specified that "puts all cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard".
I have two comments regarding the feedback.
Elegance: This is really inelegant in the sense that you almost always are targeting yourself with the ability.
What about Misdirection? You mentioned decks that can make this card very powerful, I am thinking here at Legacy Storm. And if that is the case, Misdirection is a big deal in legacy. Thoughtseize would almost all the time want to target an opponent at the same time - it makes very little sense to want to discard your own card using it (there are better discard mechanics if you want to take advantage of discard/graveyard interaction). So again you could justify that Thoughtseize should have targeted opponents only, like Duress does.
Fringe useful you could include the mill effect in the right deck, but then again, that's very fringe and probably not that relevant. I did leave it in to targeting any player for that reason too though... makes for an interesting limited play in the appropriate environment.
Finally, you can use this in a 2HG game to fuel another player's graveyard and mana pool for an even more powerful effect... which I found potentially fun.
It's hard to say whether the cards designed here are meant for a particular format only, so I am usually targeting as many formats as possible without trying to make it too busted. By format I mean here constructed, limited and multiplayer games (2HG, FFA, Commander).
I don't disagree that there is a difference between being able to target any player and only being able to target yourself; my case is that I believe that the extra utility makes the design less elegant and less intuitive for newer players. In their minds, thoughtseize should only be able to target opponents, right? (Side note: I have won a game by targeting myself with a Thoughtseize to get my Golgari Grave-Troll into my graveyard with no other means to do so!) Unfortunately, by giving the card marginal utility, you end up taking away from its elegance somewhat. I only took away one or two points for it, as I felt it was more of a minor concern, but it is a concern nonetheless. If you changed the card such that you always got the mana regardless of who you targeted, it would have gotten full points for elegance from me.
I'm not really feeling the flavor text. It feels very generic. The name is even worse; it doesn't make any sense with the mechanics of the card and it doesn't say anything either.
Yeah, I guess this is highly subjective so I can only justify my design decision here - when it comes to flavor there is a great degree of subjectivity so I can understand why polarizing opinions can occur. The idea of vortex arose from the cards being dragged into the graveyard (as opposed to library-graveyard manipulation sometimes seen as mind invasion... not always the case - though again there is nothing wrong with a demon tapping into one's mind in exchange for some benefit). I also saw this as a form of demonic intervention, something Liliana Vess is well known for - she made 4 pacts with 4 different demons to achieve apparent immortality or at least lengthen her life. This card represents a form of sacrifice (milling) in order to achieve some sort of advantage/power (black mana in this case). Ultimately I figured Liliana fits as a figure for this card as she generally generates black mana.
When it comes to Magic cards, unless you're dealing with a vanilla creature that has the whole text box for flavor text, you generally get a few dozen words to convey the flavor of a card. Your card did not say anything that made the card feel unique or otherwise gave it a special flavor. That you could put your flavor text on several other cards and have it still work, like Dark Ritual or Mind Rot makes it feel less unique. That was more of a minor complaint compared to the name. To say the card is related to a vortex is a stretch, and to say that it has anything to do with demons is ludicrous. That you had to explain the flavor to me for me to get it is a bad sign; truly good flavor text conveys what the card is doing and why it is doing it. If I were designing a name for this card, I might have gone with something along the lines of Underworld Collusion, or some other name that gives it a feel other than "This is a demon card because demons do evil things like evil rituals that give you mana".
Thanks again for your criticism and opinions but especially when we talk about flavors I am not so sure how even or uneven the scores are.
Thanks for the feedback. I realize that judging is highly subjective in certain areas, but I never try to unfairly deny one player points unless I see an issue with their card.
At the end of the day, I did really like your card; I especially liked the implications it might have on a standard format. I just felt a few details kept it from achieving a top tier score.
No explanations of your cards ideas are allowed. It must be illustrated by what would be printed on the card only.
As a point of clarity, does this round follows the same restrictions as round 1 regarding card renders?
It does not. I disallowed renders in the first round because I felt that both eased the burden of creating your own type of creature and in fact would make people create creature types based on the pictures they found (not their own ideas distinct for the magic universe.) For this round I don't feel that it makes a significant difference, so renders are allowed.
No explanations of your cards ideas are allowed. It must be illustrated by what would be printed on the card only.
As a point of clarity, does this round follows the same restrictions as round 1 regarding card renders?
It does not. I disallowed renders in the first round because I felt that both eased the burden of creating your own type of creature and in fact would make people create creature types based on the pictures they found (not their own ideas distinct for the magic universe.) For this round I don't feel that it makes a significant difference, so renders are allowed.
I know that you don't want any additional descriptions/explanations on our entries this round, so I was wondering, that since the first side of my card is colorless and the other is colored, how can I specify the color without violating the rule? Or does it even matter?
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CCL Winner- July '08, Aug '08 Sept '08, Oct '08 Survivor- CCS: Lost in Takenuma, CCS: Stranded In Tolaria
I don't always play Jank, but when I do, I play Saffronolive.
I know that you don't want any additional descriptions/explanations on our entries this round, so I was wondering, that since the first side of my card is colorless and the other is colored, how can I specify the color without violating the rule? Or does it even matter?
You can still label color identity with your card, that doesn't violate the rules. A lot of times I see folks just put the color in () were the cost would be. I'm not 100% what the "official" format for placing it on the entry is. I'll need to look it up, or prod bravelion83. *prod*
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Edit: Bang up job on the MCC thus far, by the way. Fun stuff!
Edit2: The Virus idea I came up with for the first round has inspired me to start thinking about an all new set. Thanks for that.
Edit3: BTW, is it safe for me to start posting my ideas about my Virus set in other places in CCC? I've been holding off posting anything as to not violate the rules of the first round, but I'm not sure they apply anymore.
Some players tried to do a unique creation and others, like yourself, took an existing idea that they felt could fit the challenge. The results were mixed. It is harder to create something entirely new, but taking something with preconceived ideas already attached to it poses it's own challenges, especially when interpreted by another.
Don't feel too bad PsyOp, the card I was asking IcariiFA about was actually almost exactly the same card as the first one you posted. The only differences were mine was a mono-blue sorcery that only counted cards put into an opponent's graveyard from his or her library (I was even considering changing mine to U/B). I'd say great minds, but we both missed the whole challenge part.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
360 Peasant Cube!
Custom Cube
RWU Miracles RWU
That was asked and answered in thread. It does violate the second sub challenge.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
360 Peasant Cube!
Custom Cube
RWU Miracles RWU
One last thing, please notice that I use phrases such as "as far as know" and "I believe" as much as possible in my posts. I have never claimed to be an aficionado on anything pertaining to computers or card making, I am just voicing my thoughts on the matter, feel free to respectfully correct any inaccuracies.
I share this 100%. Thanks Tilwin, it's like you wrote this taking it right from my brain. That's exactly how I see this. I didn't write two whole articles on grammar, formatting and quality for nothing (you can see them in my signature, they're the two "Mark of quality" ones, and a third one will surely come sooner or later). As a judge, I expect contestants to know how to correctly format and type cards, just as much as I expect them to cost cards reasonably and to avoid blatantly broken cards.
By the way, there are many ways to make a bullet point. I can think of four right away: two are those Flatline already mentioned (use [list] tags, which should be avoided because it leaves an extra line break at the end of the list, and typing ALT + 7 on the numeric keypad). Another is typing ALT + 0149 sequentially on the numeric keypad while keeping ALT pressed. Finally, if you are in Windows and don't have a numeric keypad, you can always just copy it from the character map.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
List tags are malformed.
With that out of the way, a few thoughts on my card (I actually really liked it for once). I definitely agree that this card is not green mechanically. I made another version of it that had a mono black mana cost ( ) , but the compost cost was green ( ). I didn't like that version as much because I felt that meant I needed to make the card cost six. I like it a lot better at five. I also made a version that shuffled the creatures back into their owner's library. I feel like that makes it a little greener, but it's a lot wordier (no room for flavor text). Anyway, any thoughts on these alternate versions of the card would be much appreciated. You could PM them to me, if you like.
I don't disagree that there is a difference between being able to target any player and only being able to target yourself; my case is that I believe that the extra utility makes the design less elegant and less intuitive for newer players. In their minds, thoughtseize should only be able to target opponents, right? (Side note: I have won a game by targeting myself with a Thoughtseize to get my Golgari Grave-Troll into my graveyard with no other means to do so!) Unfortunately, by giving the card marginal utility, you end up taking away from its elegance somewhat. I only took away one or two points for it, as I felt it was more of a minor concern, but it is a concern nonetheless. If you changed the card such that you always got the mana regardless of who you targeted, it would have gotten full points for elegance from me.
When it comes to Magic cards, unless you're dealing with a vanilla creature that has the whole text box for flavor text, you generally get a few dozen words to convey the flavor of a card. Your card did not say anything that made the card feel unique or otherwise gave it a special flavor. That you could put your flavor text on several other cards and have it still work, like Dark Ritual or Mind Rot makes it feel less unique. That was more of a minor complaint compared to the name. To say the card is related to a vortex is a stretch, and to say that it has anything to do with demons is ludicrous. That you had to explain the flavor to me for me to get it is a bad sign; truly good flavor text conveys what the card is doing and why it is doing it. If I were designing a name for this card, I might have gone with something along the lines of Underworld Collusion, or some other name that gives it a feel other than "This is a demon card because demons do evil things like evil rituals that give you mana".
Thanks for the feedback. I realize that judging is highly subjective in certain areas, but I never try to unfairly deny one player points unless I see an issue with their card.
At the end of the day, I did really like your card; I especially liked the implications it might have on a standard format. I just felt a few details kept it from achieving a top tier score.
It does not. I disallowed renders in the first round because I felt that both eased the burden of creating your own type of creature and in fact would make people create creature types based on the pictures they found (not their own ideas distinct for the magic universe.) For this round I don't feel that it makes a significant difference, so renders are allowed.
I don't see why not, so long as it fulfills the challenge rules.
CCL Winner- July '08, Aug '08 Sept '08, Oct '08
Survivor- CCS: Lost in Takenuma, CCS: Stranded In Tolaria
You can still label color identity with your card, that doesn't violate the rules. A lot of times I see folks just put the color in () were the cost would be. I'm not 100% what the "official" format for placing it on the entry is. I'll need to look it up, or prod bravelion83. *prod*