Cleave (This creature can deal excess combat damage when attacking to another creature defending player controls.)
The thing is, I don't know if it works properly in the rules. It's templated after trample obviously and intended to work in the same way, but it throws a wrench in the works that you have to choose a creature for damage to spill over to. I dunno, can I word this better? How?
I'm also not clear on where one would situate this colorwise. It's clearly red and I think white would be ok with it too, but that creates an excess of overlap in RW creature keywords. Also it's clearly both nongreen and better than trample in many situations which may be problematic.
If you're fine not targeting the benched creatures then it isn't a mess to reword tramples rules to make it function for cleave(though Trample's rules are already excessive).
Other than the obvious of putting this into Red and Green I can see this in Black.
702.2. Cleave
702.2a Cleave is a static ability that modifies the rules for assigning an attacking creature’s
combat damage. The ability has no effect when a creature with cleave is blocking or is dealing
noncombat damage. (See rule 510, “Combat Damage Step.”)
702.2b The controller of an attacking creature with cleave first assigns damage to the creature(s)
blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining
damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and any other nonblocking
creatures controlled by the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for
assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other
creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects
that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need
not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to
any other nonblocking creatures controlled by player or planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2c If an attacking creature with cleave is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when
damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to any other nonblocking creatures controlled by the
player or planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2d If a creature with cleave is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be
assigned to any other nonblocking creatures controlled by the defending player, even if that
planeswalker has been removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is
greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.
702.2e Multiple instances of cleave on the same creature are redundant.
Well, it reminds me of super-trample, which would put it into green, and it reminds me of Butcher Orgg and the laccoliths, which puts it in red, and it reminds be of fighting and creature-baseddamage spells, which puts it in red and green, and obviously it works like trample, which puts it in green.
I really feel like its green.
It's similarities to trample mean that it could in theory go anywhere that trample does, White, Blue, Black, and Colorless all get trample sometimes, though white's tramplers are mostly quite old, and blue's are entirely huge leviathan-like critters. It's not super on-message for white or blue in my mind, but black would have a lot of fun with it.
Combining it with deathtouch would be the absolute bomb.
It would be interesting to have a creature with both Trample and Cleave, kill the blocker, spread the damage to kill bystanders, and drop any extra on the player.
One question though, if a Cleave creature attacks and is not blocked, how is it's combat damage distributed? Point out why this is the case based on your understanding of the rules that would define it, not just based on how you want it to work. The way I read it, an unblocked Cleave can just throw its damage wherever it chooses among nonblocking creatures.
One question though, if a Cleave creature attacks and is not blocked, how is it's combat damage distributed? Point out why this is the case based on your understanding of the rules that would define it, not just based on how you want it to work. The way I read it, an unblocked Cleave can just throw its damage wherever it chooses among nonblocking creatures.
Creatures deal all of there damage to a player if left unblocked. It cant have excess damage to spread around a f wll of it hits the player. I.e.- no excess
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
The arguments for putting this in green make sense. But I think it's both redundant with trample and a flavor fail; cleave is about "being skilled at fighting" rather than "being physically large" and I don't think that fits with green's ethos; green is rarely about solving its problems with skill and precision. It wants a blunt object.
@user_938036: I'm in favor of not targeting the creature, actually! I think it makes for cleaner looking text and as a bonus it provides a safety valve against overpowered hexproof creatures. I would remove the 'nonblocking' restriction in your rules text, for a couple of reasons: it complicates the reminder text, it's weirdly unintuitive (after i beat the dudes i was fighting, i can hit other dudes, but not dudes fighting other guys? why?), &c.
@saneatali: I am in agreement with Jiyor here, you don't get to cleave into creatures if you're unblocked. This is maybe odd but it parallels the functioning of trample.
One question though, if a Cleave creature attacks and is not blocked, how is it's combat damage distributed? Point out why this is the case based on your understanding of the rules that would define it, not just based on how you want it to work. The way I read it, an unblocked Cleave can just throw its damage wherever it chooses among nonblocking creatures.
Creatures deal all of there damage to a player if left unblocked. It cant have excess damage to spread around a f wll of it hits the player. I.e.- no excess
The reminder text in the OP is not comprehensive, what would be the defining rules to cause this to be the case? user_938036's suggested rules do not require the Cleave creature to be blocked, just that sufficient damage is assigned to blocking creatures to kill them, and allows any additional damage (which in the case of being unblocked would be all of it) to be Cleaved off to other creatures. This is a side effect of duplicating the rules of Trample, but it's something that should be addressed, and why I requested that the rules being used to define the ability be cited in the answer to my question. Like Trample, the operation of Cleave will demand much more rules text than can be encompassed in reminder text, we need to hammer out those details before trying to apply it to cards.
One question though, if a Cleave creature attacks and is not blocked, how is it's combat damage distributed? Point out why this is the case based on your understanding of the rules that would define it, not just based on how you want it to work. The way I read it, an unblocked Cleave can just throw its damage wherever it chooses among nonblocking creatures.
Creatures deal all of there damage to a player if left unblocked. It cant have excess damage to spread around a f wll of it hits the player. I.e.- no excess
The reminder text in the OP is not comprehensive, what would be the defining rules to cause this to be the case? user_938036's suggested rules do not require the Cleave creature to be blocked, just that sufficient damage is assigned to blocking creatures to kill them, and allows any additional damage (which in the case of being unblocked would be all of it) to be Cleaved off to other creatures. This is a side effect of duplicating the rules of Trample, but it's something that should be addressed, and why I requested that the rules being used to define the ability be cited in the answer to my question. Like Trample, the operation of Cleave will demand much more rules text than can be encompassed in reminder text, we need to hammer out those details before trying to apply it to cards.
To fix this you just need to clarify it doesn't do anything when unblocked. That can be added to the part about not having an effect while blocking, or dealing noncombat damage. Yes it was an oversight but not a significant one.
I had nonblocking to ease up on combat math. It might muddy the rules a bit but makes game play smoother. It could be taken out without causing any rules problems, I'll post updated rules when I get on a computer. On that note, are there any other corner cases that need to be addressed?
To fix this you just need to clarify it doesn't do anything when unblocked. That can be added to the part about not having an effect while blocking, or dealing noncombat damage. Yes it was an oversight but not a significant one.
I had nonblocking to ease up on combat math. It might muddy the rules a bit but makes game play smoother. It could be taken out without causing any rules problems, I'll post updated rules when I get on a computer. On that note, are there any other corner cases that need to be addressed?
What about a creature with Cleave and Trample? Can you just choose between defending player or his/her creatures?
To fix this you just need to clarify it doesn't do anything when unblocked. That can be added to the part about not having an effect while blocking, or dealing noncombat damage. Yes it was an oversight but not a significant one.
I had nonblocking to ease up on combat math. It might muddy the rules a bit but makes game play smoother. It could be taken out without causing any rules problems, I'll post updated rules when I get on a computer. On that note, are there any other corner cases that need to be addressed?
What about a creature with Cleave and Trample? Can you just choose between defending player or his/her creatures?
It should be an either-or proposition. A cleaving trampler would get to assign the excess to only the defending player or only one of their creatures. Since trample tells you that you assign the excess damage (i.e. all of it) to defending player, and cleave tells you to assign the same amount to a creature, there should be no provision to subdivide the damage unless one is specifically written into the rules.
To fix this you just need to clarify it doesn't do anything when unblocked. That can be added to the part about not having an effect while blocking, or dealing noncombat damage. Yes it was an oversight but not a significant one.
I had nonblocking to ease up on combat math. It might muddy the rules a bit but makes game play smoother. It could be taken out without causing any rules problems, I'll post updated rules when I get on a computer. On that note, are there any other corner cases that need to be addressed?
What about a creature with Cleave and Trample? Can you just choose between defending player or his/her creatures?
It should be an either-or proposition. A cleaving trampler would get to assign the excess to only the defending player or only one of their creatures. Since trample tells you that you assign the excess damage (i.e. all of it) to defending player, and cleave tells you to assign the same amount to a creature, there should be no provision to subdivide the damage unless one is specifically written into the rules.
That isn't how Trample works and isn't how Cleave would work. Both allow you to divide the damage as you choose among a number of options. So a creature with Cleave and Trample would simply have more options.
To fix this you just need to clarify it doesn't do anything when unblocked. That can be added to the part about not having an effect while blocking, or dealing noncombat damage. Yes it was an oversight but not a significant one.
I had nonblocking to ease up on combat math. It might muddy the rules a bit but makes game play smoother. It could be taken out without causing any rules problems, I'll post updated rules when I get on a computer. On that note, are there any other corner cases that need to be addressed?
What about a creature with Cleave and Trample? Can you just choose between defending player or his/her creatures?
It should be an either-or proposition. A cleaving trampler would get to assign the excess to only the defending player or only one of their creatures. Since trample tells you that you assign the excess damage (i.e. all of it) to defending player, and cleave tells you to assign the same amount to a creature, there should be no provision to subdivide the damage unless one is specifically written into the rules.
That isn't how Trample works and isn't how Cleave would work. Both allow you to divide the damage as you choose among a number of options. So a creature with Cleave and Trample would simply have more options.
Well, that's even better! Favorable interactions between keywords are great. So a 5/5 with cleave and trample that's attacking a player and blocked by a 2/2 should be able to assign 1 damage to a 1/1 to kill it and the remaining 2 damage to the player.
Well, that's even better! Favorable interactions between keywords are great. So a 5/5 with cleave and trample that's attacking a player and blocked by a 2/2 should be able to assign 1 damage to a 1/1 to kill it and the remaining 2 damage to the player.
Yes, in fact with the way its worded you can assign 2 damage to the blocked creature 1 damage to a 1/1, 1 damage to a different 1/1(or a larger creature that also blocked and you want to finish off), and 1 damage to the player.
702.2. Cleave
702.2a Cleave is a static ability that modifies the rules for assigning an attacking creature’s
combat damage. The ability has no effect when a creature with cleave is unblocked, blocking or is dealing
noncombat damage. (See rule 510, “Combat Damage Step.”)
702.2b The controller of an attacking creature with cleave first assigns damage to the creature(s)
blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining
damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and any other creatures
controlled by the player or controller of the planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for
assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other
creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that
might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need not assign
lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to any other creatures controlled by the player or the controller of the planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2c If an attacking creature with cleave is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when
damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned as its controller chooses to any other creatures controlled
by the player or the controller of the planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2d If a creature with cleave is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be
assigned to any other creatures controlled by the defending player, even if that planeswalker has been
removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.
702.2e Multiple instances of cleave on the same creature are redundant.
This is a take on possible reminder text, it is vague and leaves out a lot of the finer points but so does reminder text for trample.
Cleave (This creature can deal excess combat damage to creatures defending player controls while attacking.)
The arguments for putting this in green make sense. But I think it's both redundant with trample and a flavor fail; cleave is about "being skilled at fighting" rather than "being physically large" and I don't think that fits with green's ethos; green is rarely about solving its problems with skill and precision. It wants a blunt object.
Green is the color of Spiders making spider webs. Reach is flavored as those or as archery or otherwise sniping a flyer.
And cleave is not just about being "skilled" to begin with but still requires strength. Though any color could have strength.
From the color pie this is easily red-white, but could also go into green as well. Like "trample for blockers" it fits the Naya colors well.
---
702.2d If a creature with cleave is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be
assigned to any other nonblocking creatures controlled by the defending player, even if that
planeswalker has been removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is
greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.
This subrule does not make sense; I imagine it has been taken from the trample subrules and added to the cleave rule proposition with a little editing but without thought put into it to why the original rule was there in trample and whether it should still be there in cleave.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
702.2d If a creature with cleave is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be
assigned to any other nonblocking creatures controlled by the defending player, even if that
planeswalker has been removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is
greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.
This subrule does not make sense; I imagine it has been taken from the trample subrules and added to the cleave rule proposition with a little editing but without thought put into it to why the original rule was there in trample and whether it should still be there in cleave.
It was put in to remove confusion just like with trample, though once I added the 'doesn't effect unblocked attacker' it was no longer necessary but I didn't think to remove it. It can be cut from the rules without harm.
So why would I even try to block this and give my opponent 2 for 1? Is this evergreen or block only keyword? If block only, how many cards can this keyword be applied to?
Wizards used to do something like this regularly through at least Onslaught block. But it was always clunky.
Trample has, despite being intuitive, been similarly clunky.
The mechanical space Cleave plays (snowballing creature removal) is quite distinct and unpleasant compared to Trample's mechanical space - usually described as mock evasion.
Wizards did Provoke for "attacking creatures" and apart from the ability to crew vehicles (uh oh!), this seems like a preferable means of "dealing combat damage to creatures."
If anything, I'd be more interested in a revised Provoke:
Hunter (When ~ attacks, you may have target creature block it and that creature may block it even if it ordinarily be able to do so. For example, a targeted tapped creatures may block as though they were untapped, and a targeted tapped creature without flying may block as though it had reach.)
Hunter takes out the "middle man" and lets you kill the prey. Easy peasy.
There are spells and effects that give flying and other evasion. Having to have additional text to make Provoke 2.0 work as it's supposed to do is sloppy design. The fact you can "get away with it" in most cases doesn't help flavor or function.
I see this in Red, Black, and Green. Sure Green doesn't really evoke that mad berserker cutting through hordes, but I imagine a big Rhino or something battering around a bunch of creatures.
Overall I like it, but my question is how often is it going to be useful? I guess it's like trample; it'll usually be seen on bigger creatures or creatures that can get big.
Cleave (This creature can deal excess combat damage when attacking to another creature defending player controls.)
The thing is, I don't know if it works properly in the rules. It's templated after trample obviously and intended to work in the same way, but it throws a wrench in the works that you have to choose a creature for damage to spill over to. I dunno, can I word this better? How?
I'm also not clear on where one would situate this colorwise. It's clearly red and I think white would be ok with it too, but that creates an excess of overlap in RW creature keywords. Also it's clearly both nongreen and better than trample in many situations which may be problematic.
Red and green are the colors for this, but they already kinda share too much, so maybe let black get in on it.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Other than the obvious of putting this into Red and Green I can see this in Black.
702.2. Cleave
702.2a Cleave is a static ability that modifies the rules for assigning an attacking creature’s
combat damage. The ability has no effect when a creature with cleave is blocking or is dealing
noncombat damage. (See rule 510, “Combat Damage Step.”)
702.2b The controller of an attacking creature with cleave first assigns damage to the creature(s)
blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining
damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and any other nonblocking
creatures controlled by the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for
assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other
creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects
that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need
not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to
any other nonblocking creatures controlled by player or planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2c If an attacking creature with cleave is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when
damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to any other nonblocking creatures controlled by the
player or planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2d If a creature with cleave is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be
assigned to any other nonblocking creatures controlled by the defending player, even if that
planeswalker has been removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is
greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.
702.2e Multiple instances of cleave on the same creature are redundant.
I really feel like its green.
It's similarities to trample mean that it could in theory go anywhere that trample does, White, Blue, Black, and Colorless all get trample sometimes, though white's tramplers are mostly quite old, and blue's are entirely huge leviathan-like critters. It's not super on-message for white or blue in my mind, but black would have a lot of fun with it.
Combining it with deathtouch would be the absolute bomb.
It would be interesting to have a creature with both Trample and Cleave, kill the blocker, spread the damage to kill bystanders, and drop any extra on the player.
One question though, if a Cleave creature attacks and is not blocked, how is it's combat damage distributed? Point out why this is the case based on your understanding of the rules that would define it, not just based on how you want it to work. The way I read it, an unblocked Cleave can just throw its damage wherever it chooses among nonblocking creatures.
Creatures deal all of there damage to a player if left unblocked. It cant have excess damage to spread around a f wll of it hits the player. I.e.- no excess
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
@user_938036: I'm in favor of not targeting the creature, actually! I think it makes for cleaner looking text and as a bonus it provides a safety valve against overpowered hexproof creatures. I would remove the 'nonblocking' restriction in your rules text, for a couple of reasons: it complicates the reminder text, it's weirdly unintuitive (after i beat the dudes i was fighting, i can hit other dudes, but not dudes fighting other guys? why?), &c.
@saneatali: I am in agreement with Jiyor here, you don't get to cleave into creatures if you're unblocked. This is maybe odd but it parallels the functioning of trample.
The reminder text in the OP is not comprehensive, what would be the defining rules to cause this to be the case? user_938036's suggested rules do not require the Cleave creature to be blocked, just that sufficient damage is assigned to blocking creatures to kill them, and allows any additional damage (which in the case of being unblocked would be all of it) to be Cleaved off to other creatures. This is a side effect of duplicating the rules of Trample, but it's something that should be addressed, and why I requested that the rules being used to define the ability be cited in the answer to my question. Like Trample, the operation of Cleave will demand much more rules text than can be encompassed in reminder text, we need to hammer out those details before trying to apply it to cards.
I had nonblocking to ease up on combat math. It might muddy the rules a bit but makes game play smoother. It could be taken out without causing any rules problems, I'll post updated rules when I get on a computer. On that note, are there any other corner cases that need to be addressed?
What about a creature with Cleave and Trample? Can you just choose between defending player or his/her creatures?
It should be an either-or proposition. A cleaving trampler would get to assign the excess to only the defending player or only one of their creatures. Since trample tells you that you assign the excess damage (i.e. all of it) to defending player, and cleave tells you to assign the same amount to a creature, there should be no provision to subdivide the damage unless one is specifically written into the rules.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Well, that's even better! Favorable interactions between keywords are great. So a 5/5 with cleave and trample that's attacking a player and blocked by a 2/2 should be able to assign 1 damage to a 1/1 to kill it and the remaining 2 damage to the player.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
702.2a Cleave is a static ability that modifies the rules for assigning an attacking creature’s
combat damage. The ability has no effect when a creature with cleave is unblocked, blocking or is dealing
noncombat damage. (See rule 510, “Combat Damage Step.”)
702.2b The controller of an attacking creature with cleave first assigns damage to the creature(s)
blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining
damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and any other creatures
controlled by the player or controller of the planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for
assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other
creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that
might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need not assign
lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to any other creatures controlled by the player or the controller of the planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2c If an attacking creature with cleave is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when
damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned as its controller chooses to any other creatures controlled
by the player or the controller of the planeswalker it’s attacking.
702.2d If a creature with cleave is attacking a planeswalker, none of its combat damage can be
assigned to any other creatures controlled by the defending player, even if that planeswalker has been
removed from combat or the damage the attacking creature could assign is greater than the planeswalker’s loyalty.
702.2e Multiple instances of cleave on the same creature are redundant.
Green is the color of Spiders making spider webs. Reach is flavored as those or as archery or otherwise sniping a flyer.
And cleave is not just about being "skilled" to begin with but still requires strength. Though any color could have strength.
From the color pie this is easily red-white, but could also go into green as well. Like "trample for blockers" it fits the Naya colors well.
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This subrule does not make sense; I imagine it has been taken from the trample subrules and added to the cleave rule proposition with a little editing but without thought put into it to why the original rule was there in trample and whether it should still be there in cleave.
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Trample has, despite being intuitive, been similarly clunky.
The mechanical space Cleave plays (snowballing creature removal) is quite distinct and unpleasant compared to Trample's mechanical space - usually described as mock evasion.
Wizards did Provoke for "attacking creatures" and apart from the ability to crew vehicles (uh oh!), this seems like a preferable means of "dealing combat damage to creatures."
If anything, I'd be more interested in a revised Provoke:
Hunter (When ~ attacks, you may have target creature block it and that creature may block it even if it ordinarily be able to do so. For example, a targeted tapped creatures may block as though they were untapped, and a targeted tapped creature without flying may block as though it had reach.)
Hunter takes out the "middle man" and lets you kill the prey. Easy peasy.
Overall I like it, but my question is how often is it going to be useful? I guess it's like trample; it'll usually be seen on bigger creatures or creatures that can get big.
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