So I've kind of been working on a set focused around enemy colour pairs, and the last mechanic I need is the B/G one. Because of the flavour of the B/G group - basically, they're a civilization who constantly expand their nests to claim new resources - I really wanted a mechanic that felt encroaching, like you were pressing in on your opponent's options even as you flourished off their resources. The following is what I came up with; comments and suggestions welcomed.
Encroach (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
Desperate Adventurer1B
Creature - Rat Scout {C}
Whenever Desperate Adventurer deals combat damage to a player, encroach. (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
1/2 Those who must leave the nest will do anything to return to it.
Seize Territory1B
Instant {U}
Encroach. (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
Draw a card. The Radis advance in fits and starts. A village that has lived in their shadow for ten years can find itself enfolded by a nest overnight.
Inexorable Growth3G
Sorcery {C}
Search your library for a basic land card and put it into play tapped. Shuffle your library.
Encroach. (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
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Call me Fortuna, please. Ms. Imperatrix Mundi is the empress of the world.
Thank you for your feedback! The idea of Encroach X is interesting, but I worry that it might cause memory issues given you're likely to be representing the emblems with beads or other non-card things. I don't think Desperate Adventurer or Seize Territory would work with Encroach 1, either - Seize Territory can't cost you more mana than it costs your opponent or it becomes difficult to justify playing, and Desperate Adventurer becomes too easy to just pay off even if it does manage to connect. Both of those cards were designed with the balance point pretty firmly at 2. If I want to fill the late game space you're suggesting, I can make cards that encroach multiple times, which is easy since it's a keyword action rather than a keyword ability.
The reason I went with emblems is twofold. First, it makes the text shorter. "Each opponent gets an emblem with" compared to "Each opponent creates a <color> enchantment/artifact token with" is a pretty substantial difference, and I suspect that wording it this way makes it easier to understand on a first read as well. The second reason is that flavourwise, it doesn't make much sense to me to remove this effect with artifact or enchantment removal - it's certainly not a physical object you can smash, and it's more of a strategic condition than a magical construct. Besides, how often would you rather play artifact or enchantment removal rather than just paying 2?
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Call me Fortuna, please. Ms. Imperatrix Mundi is the empress of the world.
I'm going to put out a hypothetical scenario so I know I'm understanding what happens with the mechanic. 4 player commander pod: I'm going 1st turn 1. My opening play is Swamp, Lotus Petal, Seize Territory. If nobody pays the 2 mana to exile the emblems, when it gets to my 1st main phase turn 2, each of my opponents has 2 tokens and I have 3?
Yes, that's correct. At the start of each of your three opponents' upkeeps, each of that player's opponents gets a token. I haven't given a great deal of thought to how this mechanic will play out in multiplayer - there's a couple of knobs that can be tweaked for that.
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Call me Fortuna, please. Ms. Imperatrix Mundi is the empress of the world.
Whether emblems are flavorfully or mechanically better, I would definitely caution that this should more likely be a black and green enchantment token. A greater level of interactivity is better, and emblems are strictly reserved for planeswalkers at the moment.
Mechanically speaking, it's a little odd that every opponent other than the encroached-upon one gets the benefit from this in a multiplayer game, although I can't think of how to fix that short of just giving you the bonus and having all of your opponents be able to pay 2 to end it.
I like this and echo void_nothing. Here's a take on it.
Infest (Create a black and green enchantment token with “At the beginning of your end step, create a 1/1 black and green Insect creature token unless an opponent pays 1”.)
Well, this is all very disheartening and not at all what I wanted to hear. Oh well, that's what feedback is for, right?
First, it sounds like a lot of you want to make this enchantment tokens rather than emblems. This still feels like a big flavour loss to me, as well as complicating the wording, and I'm not sure how much real interaction it would actually add, besides occasional blowouts with mass enchantment removal or the rare enchantment sacrifice outlets (which won't be in the set for this reason if this is the direction I end up going in) and occasionally powering up your opponent's enchantresses or what have you for no good reason at all (which weren't going to be in the set anyway, but would be entirely locked out due to this). Putting the tokens/emblems on your side of the battlefield, as Legend suggests, is a massive flavour loss - it no longer comes across as encroaching on your opponent, but just getting free stuff.
I like Etamin's idea a little better, but I worry that it could get too linear. My original design for encroach is somewhat linear but still functions if you splash it in the early game; Infesting Nests and Territorial Packrat seem like their power level depends much more strongly than I'd like on how many ways to encroach you open.
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Call me Fortuna, please. Ms. Imperatrix Mundi is the empress of the world.
I think the original formulation is the best. You're making a custom set, so go with emblems. Right now they're reserved for planeswalkers, but I don't see how it hurts the game to expand their reach. Also, I think they're interactive enough. You can interact with them by exiling them. That's enough for me.
Maybe moving the trigger to the end step would be beneficial? Encroaching feels like a slow gradual process, the kind where you turn your head and you swear it's moved an inch closer when you turn back. This enables a few balances, like making it slightly less powerful because you won't have a blocker during combat from it but you still have the opportunity to quasi time walk your opponent when they pay for it. And it feels like you're being encroached upon because you do stuff and then while you were thinking about your stuff the trigger slips your mind and you're suddenly losing board control
I really do not like the initial approach proposed here, either. It's weird, texty, and messy. Looking at some of the suggestions downstream, here's what I think:
Scrap it.
Replace with, "Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature," and occasionally the payoff rider, "Whenever a creature a counter on it dies," and you're set. You get that feel of the victim's stuff being crunched in on painfully, the aggressor doesn't get stuff on their side of the field to do it, and best of all, you not only don't need a mechanic word for it, but also, you can implement it wholly using existing rules technology, and not least it saves you from the board stalls that will inevitably result from two colors having heavy 1/1 token producers.
I am intrigued by the concept of encroach. The idea to use emblems breaks new ground. Generally, most people are turned off by new things. So it isn't surprising to see the negative reactions and suggestions to revert to tried and true mechanisms like -1/-1 counters. If it is refined so the command zone isn't littered with encroach emblems, this idea can lead to wide open use of the command zone outside EDH games.
Maybe moving the trigger to the end step would be beneficial? Encroaching feels like a slow gradual process, the kind where you turn your head and you swear it's moved an inch closer when you turn back. This enables a few balances, like making it slightly less powerful because you won't have a blocker during combat from it but you still have the opportunity to quasi time walk your opponent when they pay for it. And it feels like you're being encroached upon because you do stuff and then while you were thinking about your stuff the trigger slips your mind and you're suddenly losing board control
This is an interesting idea, but it has a huge problem - moving the trigger to the end step means if you encroach at sorcery speed, your opponent gets to untap before the trigger. That means encroach becomes way less reliable, and I think much less fun for the player encroaching.
I really do not like the initial approach proposed here, either. It's weird, texty, and messy. Looking at some of the suggestions downstream, here's what I think:
Scrap it.
Replace with, "Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature," and occasionally the payoff rider, "Whenever a creature a counter on it dies," and you're set. You get that feel of the victim's stuff being crunched in on painfully, the aggressor doesn't get stuff on their side of the field to do it, and best of all, you not only don't need a mechanic word for it, but also, you can implement it wholly using existing rules technology, and not least it saves you from the board stalls that will inevitably result from two colors having heavy 1/1 token producers.
I want a feeling of encroaching on territory, not creatures, and the set already makes extensive use of +1/+1 counters. So this idea doesn't really work very well for me.
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Call me Fortuna, please. Ms. Imperatrix Mundi is the empress of the world.
This time, you are going to make two lists: The first list is a list of design goals for your mechanic. The second list is a list of design constraints. Consider making a third list of mechanics and themes that affect your choice of mechanic.
Once you have no new information to add, then the rest of us will be able to make fully informed suggestions for a solution.
Note that this doesn't mean that we will be able to find a solution that perfectly matches with your goals and constraints, such that none of them are ignored or violated, but it will render the conversation in this thread more productive because there aren't any surprise roadblocks.
Encroach as is, is a nightmare to balance. It is absurd in the early game giving you tons of advantage and incredibly weak in the late game where it is possible your opponents won't even notice the strain of keeping unencroached. I also don't get the flavor of it at all, why is everyone but the encroached player getting creatures? This doesn't make sense from a flavor perspective, ideally with a name like encroach you would slowly take control of your opponents resources, but that is more of a UB mechanic. If you are going with a feel of colonizing your opponents lands, while allowing them to uninfest then you might not have a good way of going forward, but if you remove the ability to unencroach you can keep the feel of benefiting from opponents lands by having cards that put counters on lands and then gain benefits from these encroached lands. Depending on the power level of your cards you can split up which cards encroach and which cards benefit, or you can make all cards that benefit encroach while other cards also encroach but don't benefit.
A sample
Displaced Farmhand 1G
Creature - t: Add G to your mana pool for each encroached land an opponent controls.
0/2
Nest Builder 2B
Creature - Rat
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player put an encroachment counter on a land that player controls
At the beginning of your upkeep create a 1/1 green and black rat creature for each encroached land an opponent controls.
1/3
Branch Off G
Sorcery
Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
Put an encroachment counter on a land an opponent controls.
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Encroach (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
Desperate Adventurer 1B
Creature - Rat Scout {C}
Whenever Desperate Adventurer deals combat damage to a player, encroach. (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
1/2
Those who must leave the nest will do anything to return to it.
Seize Territory 1B
Instant {U}
Encroach. (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
Draw a card.
The Radis advance in fits and starts. A village that has lived in their shadow for ten years can find itself enfolded by a nest overnight.
Inexorable Growth 3G
Sorcery {C}
Search your library for a basic land card and put it into play tapped. Shuffle your library.
Encroach. (Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep each opponent creates a 1/1 black and green Rat creature token” and “2: Exile this emblem”.)
The reason I went with emblems is twofold. First, it makes the text shorter. "Each opponent gets an emblem with" compared to "Each opponent creates a <color> enchantment/artifact token with" is a pretty substantial difference, and I suspect that wording it this way makes it easier to understand on a first read as well. The second reason is that flavourwise, it doesn't make much sense to me to remove this effect with artifact or enchantment removal - it's certainly not a physical object you can smash, and it's more of a strategic condition than a magical construct. Besides, how often would you rather play artifact or enchantment removal rather than just paying 2?
WUBRGReaper King - Superfriends
WUBRGChild of Alara - The Nauseating Aurora
WUBSharuum the Hegemon - Christmas In Prison
WUBZur the Enchanter - Ow My Face
WRJor Kadeen, the Prevailer - Snow Goats
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden - International Goblin All Purpose Recycling Facility Number 12
WGSaffi Eriksdotter - Saffi Combosdotter
UPatron of the Moon - The Age of Aquarius
BHorobi, Death's Wail - Bring Out Your Dead
GSachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Sneks
Mechanically speaking, it's a little odd that every opponent other than the encroached-upon one gets the benefit from this in a multiplayer game, although I can't think of how to fix that short of just giving you the bonus and having all of your opponents be able to pay 2 to end it.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Infest (Create a black and green enchantment token with “At the beginning of your end step, create a 1/1 black and green Insect creature token unless an opponent pays 1”.)
First, it sounds like a lot of you want to make this enchantment tokens rather than emblems. This still feels like a big flavour loss to me, as well as complicating the wording, and I'm not sure how much real interaction it would actually add, besides occasional blowouts with mass enchantment removal or the rare enchantment sacrifice outlets (which won't be in the set for this reason if this is the direction I end up going in) and occasionally powering up your opponent's enchantresses or what have you for no good reason at all (which weren't going to be in the set anyway, but would be entirely locked out due to this). Putting the tokens/emblems on your side of the battlefield, as Legend suggests, is a massive flavour loss - it no longer comes across as encroaching on your opponent, but just getting free stuff.
I like Etamin's idea a little better, but I worry that it could get too linear. My original design for encroach is somewhat linear but still functions if you splash it in the early game; Infesting Nests and Territorial Packrat seem like their power level depends much more strongly than I'd like on how many ways to encroach you open.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
And the flavor is amazing.
WUBRGReaper King - Superfriends
WUBRGChild of Alara - The Nauseating Aurora
WUBSharuum the Hegemon - Christmas In Prison
WUBZur the Enchanter - Ow My Face
WRJor Kadeen, the Prevailer - Snow Goats
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden - International Goblin All Purpose Recycling Facility Number 12
WGSaffi Eriksdotter - Saffi Combosdotter
UPatron of the Moon - The Age of Aquarius
BHorobi, Death's Wail - Bring Out Your Dead
GSachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Sneks
Scrap it.
Replace with, "Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature," and occasionally the payoff rider, "Whenever a creature a counter on it dies," and you're set. You get that feel of the victim's stuff being crunched in on painfully, the aggressor doesn't get stuff on their side of the field to do it, and best of all, you not only don't need a mechanic word for it, but also, you can implement it wholly using existing rules technology, and not least it saves you from the board stalls that will inevitably result from two colors having heavy 1/1 token producers.
This is an interesting idea, but it has a huge problem - moving the trigger to the end step means if you encroach at sorcery speed, your opponent gets to untap before the trigger. That means encroach becomes way less reliable, and I think much less fun for the player encroaching.
I want a feeling of encroaching on territory, not creatures, and the set already makes extensive use of +1/+1 counters. So this idea doesn't really work very well for me.
This time, you are going to make two lists: The first list is a list of design goals for your mechanic. The second list is a list of design constraints. Consider making a third list of mechanics and themes that affect your choice of mechanic.
Once you have no new information to add, then the rest of us will be able to make fully informed suggestions for a solution.
Note that this doesn't mean that we will be able to find a solution that perfectly matches with your goals and constraints, such that none of them are ignored or violated, but it will render the conversation in this thread more productive because there aren't any surprise roadblocks.
A sample
Displaced Farmhand 1G
Creature -
t: Add G to your mana pool for each encroached land an opponent controls.
0/2
Nest Builder 2B
Creature - Rat
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player put an encroachment counter on a land that player controls
At the beginning of your upkeep create a 1/1 green and black rat creature for each encroached land an opponent controls.
1/3
Branch Off G
Sorcery
Search your library for a basic land card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
Put an encroachment counter on a land an opponent controls.