What if the color pie shifted to allow Green to copy creatures, like Blue does?
Do you think this is a good idea?
This idea was introduced to me by the forum user Tahazzar, with the rationale that Green is the "creature color" and that it already has elements of mimicking an enemy through adaptation and evolution.
Here are a few copy ideas that are supposed to feel Green:
Spontaneous Reproduction2GG
Instant
Untap target creature, then create a token that's a copy of it.
Surging Birth4G
Sorcery
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Create a token that's a copy of it.
Forest Lake Seer2U
Creature - Merfolk Shaman 2G, t: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card, create a token that's a copy of it.
1/2
So to start, cloning is currently secondary in green, though it is supposed to only clone your own creatures. They don't do this more because its a rather lack luster ability and normal clones are already infrequent enough that having an even more infrequent clone variant isn't very interesting. Instead they do things that 'look' like cloning but isn't really like Miming Slime. I think seeing some pushed cards in this vein could be interesting, or maybe even a subtheme of a set to support.
So to start, cloning is currently secondary in green, though it is supposed to only clone your own creatures. They don't do this more because its a rather lack luster ability and normal clones are already infrequent enough that having an even more infrequent clone variant isn't very interesting. Instead they do things that 'look' like cloning but isn't really like Miming Slime. I think seeing some pushed cards in this vein could be interesting, or maybe even a subtheme of a set to support.
So is this something that WotC has stated? I've never come across it as far as I can remember...
You wouldn't happen to remember where this was stated and/or by who?
I found this very fascinating. You could basically make a whole faction or (sub)theme within mono-G that could play this into this space.
Add Spitting Image to that list. Copying creatures is at least close enough to green that color-pie-bleeding hybrid cards can get access to Clone effects. Otherwise I agree that green should usually be limited to copying your own stuff like Cackling Counterpart. (Blue is still fine copying anybody's stuff though.)
Spontaneous Reproduction - With a "you control" restriction, this could work really well in green.
Surging Birth - This feels a bit awkward. Like maybe it should be red-green and give both the creature and the token +2/+2 and haste until end of turn. Either way, it should also be a "creature you control".
Forest Lake Seer - This is dangerous since it can abuse deck stacking and leaves the card on top of your library allowing you can activate it during your opponent's turn, then again during your upkeep if you hit something really juicy.
Original Self - Should just be worded like Miming Slime.
Wurminize - Huge colorbleed. However, make that "noncreature spell" and an Ooze or Elemental token for better flavor and it might be acceptable enough for a special non-standard-legal product like a commander set where colorbleeds appear to be more acceptable.
Mitotic Imitator - This is probably too good with enter/leave triggers, plus the "smaller" tokens actually get bigger with anything that enters with +1/+1 counters. You could get a similar flavor by working like Body Double or Ritual of the Returned.
this talk of green being able to clone its own stuff gave me an idea:
Clay Clone3(G/U)
Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
You may have Clay Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature you control if you spent G to cast it.
You may have Clay Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature another player controls if you spent U to cast it.
0/0
this talk of green being able to clone its own stuff gave me an idea:
Clay Clone3(G/U)
Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
You may have Clay Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature you control control if you spent G to cast it.
You may have Clay Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature another player controls if you spent U to cast it.
0/0
That's cool and all, but what do you think happens if you pay both? Don't worry the rules have the answer but I want to know what you think should happen as you designed the card. Also what others think should happen if you pay both.
And even if you did try to apply both, they are two replacement effects trying to affect the same permanent, so that permanent's controller chooses which order to apply them. Mechanically I'm not sure exactly. Either:
1) You make one choice, then the second choice overwrites the first choice.
2) You make one choice, then the second ability is no longer there to be applied.
Functionally though, it doesn't really matter either way. The player just chooses any creature to copy like with Clone. It only ever enters as a copy of one creature. It doesn't enter, then suddenly change. You don't need to call over a judge because your opponent doesn't know the intricacies of how the two replacement effects interact.
That card has completely gone under my radar. I didn't know proto-Serene Master existed. Although, power exchange seems to be the very opposite what green would do. I would use that ability in every other color before I would place it in green. Also, that seems to have some serious memory issues (if the exchange is permanent).
Riptide Mangler doesn't change other creatures, it just makes its own base power equal to the calculated power of any creature. You just have one number you have to remember for itself. The main problem with Riptide Mangler is that it can target itself, which because of layers means you can raise its power with Auras, Equipment, or +1/+1 counters, and then you can repeatedly activate targeting itself to set its previous final calculated power as its new base power.
Land copying currently pretty much limited to lands themselves (Vesuva, Thespian's Stage) which makes sense. Creating a bunch of various land token copies would get out of hand very quickly (memory issues).
Actually, I made this card before, inspired by cards like Sakashima the Impostor that make copies except remember some previous characteristic.
Stone Sentinel1GG Creature - Elemental (R)
Vigilance
You may have CARDNAME enter the battlefield as a copy of any land on the battlefield, except it’s a 3/3 green Elemental creature in addition to its other colors and types and it has vigilance.
3/3
"Alpha"(This creature's power is equal to the greatest power among creatures on the battlefield. <Something about power being 0 if there are no non-"alpha" creatures are on the battlefield?>)
This wouldn't have any memory issues whatsoever. Also, since it makes little sense to use that Riptide ability to target a creature other than the one with the greatest power - it might as well be "on" all the time, right? The creature will "lose power" if the creature with greatest power leaves the battlefield, but that seems like a minor set back - I'm not even sure if that's a pro or con of the ability.
This ability has problems with layers and power boosting effects. However there is a easy fix, though it may ruin the flavor.
Alpha(This creature's base power is equal to the greatest base power among creatures on the battlefield.
The problem with your version is if you have any kind of power boost, like a +1/+1 counter or Glorious Anthem, then its power keeps raising itself because of layers.
A quick breakdown of how and why this happens
Layer 7 power/toughness
a-Characteristic defining abilities
b--Setting base power/toughness
c---Effects that modify power/toughness without setting
d----Changes from counters
e-----Switching power/toughness
Your effect sets its power in layer a, then it will get a buff from either layer c or d, having gotten this buff its ability sees a creature with a new highest power so it goes to layer a to set it to the new highest, then in layer c or d it gets the buff again, ad nauseam. I assume that your ability is a CDA so it works in all zones, though even if it isn't it still has the same problem just occurring in layer b rather than a.
Using Base in the check means that it won't see any power boosts so there is no loop but it will also not gain a benefit from opponents glorious anthem effects.
Here's an alternate take on the color pie based on some of the ideas that have gone around. The gist is that Green copies your own stuff (flavor: pack mentality, evolution), and Blue copies your opponents' stuff (flavor: stealing someone else's good ideas). The thinking behind these shifts is that Green should get more copying because it's flavorful and because having mechanics in multiple colors makes for a more dynamic game. And then, if there are other colors dipping further into copying, Blue should scale back what it can do.
----------------------- Green Miming Slime Giant Adephage Horncaller's Chant
Crackly Counterpart1GG
Instant
Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control.
Flashback 5GG
Mitosis7GG
Sorcery
For each creature you control, create a token that's a copy of that creature.
Referencing Clone Legion.
----------------------- Blue
Devious Impersonator2UU
Creature - Shapeshifter
You may have Devious Impersonator enter the battlefield as a copy of any nonland permanent on the battlefield that an opponent controls.
0/0
Tezzeret's Plagiarism4UU
Sorcery
Choose one or both —
-Create a token that's a copy of target artifact you don't control.
-Create a token that's a copy of target creature you don't control, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types.
The problem with your version is if you have any kind of power boost, like a +1/+1 counter or Glorious Anthem, then its power keeps raising itself because of layers.
Layers don't loop like that though. The real problem (I think) with that previous version would be when there are multiple alpha creatures each one could have different values. The alpha creature with the oldest time stamp would use the highest power among non-alpha creatures, then if that creature's power is raised in layers 7c, 7d, or 7e the alpha creature with the next time stamp would use that new number, continuing for each subsequent time stamped alpha creature.
The minor problem with your cards beyond the first one is that they are just worse versions of already existing cards because of their added restrictions. You could easily remedy that by cutting 1 from each of their cost. I think Clone already has been "outcreeped" as far as creatures go. A good example of that would be how Phyrexian Metamorph makes clone look like a joke.
My intention was just to hint at what an alternate color pie might look like, so yes, I didn't spend time balancing these cards.
Reverse EngineerU
Sorcery
Create a token that's a copy of target artifact an opponent controls.
I love this! Your color breakdown of artifact copying is interesting. This mechanic is young (only 9 cards in the history of the game can copy noncreature artifacts), so the color pie has yet to be strongly developed around it.
If white does what you suggest...
Factory Floor4
Artifact 4,t: Create a Contraption artifact token with "W: Sacrifice this artifact: you gain 3 life."
Factory Foreman2WU
Creature - Dwarf Artificer
At the beginning of your upkeep, assemble (create a token that's a copy of an artifact token you control.)
Whenever you assemble a Contraption, draw a card.
1/1
Not quite there yet, of course, since here it is you that assembles instead of your Riggers. And it's in white instead of red. But I wanted to throw it out there as a possible starting point.
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Do you think this is a good idea?
This idea was introduced to me by the forum user Tahazzar, with the rationale that Green is the "creature color" and that it already has elements of mimicking an enemy through adaptation and evolution.
Here are a few copy ideas that are supposed to feel Green:
Spontaneous Reproduction 2GG
Instant
Untap target creature, then create a token that's a copy of it.
Surging Birth 4G
Sorcery
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Create a token that's a copy of it.
Forest Lake Seer 2U
Creature - Merfolk Shaman
2G, t: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card, create a token that's a copy of it.
1/2
That tells me that copying is in-pie, and now I realize I'm interested in exploring whether other types of copying would feel in-pie as well.
As to your cards:
Original Self: The name seems off, since the ability seems to suggest mimicking the opponent. But this feels Green to me.
Primal Mimic: Feels Blue, since Blue often uses the "with no abilities" clause.
Wurminize: Yeah, definitely a pie break.
I'll get to the others when I have time.
Green is more about increasing your own stuff.
Spontaneous Reproduction - With a "you control" restriction, this could work really well in green.
Surging Birth - This feels a bit awkward. Like maybe it should be red-green and give both the creature and the token +2/+2 and haste until end of turn. Either way, it should also be a "creature you control".
Forest Lake Seer - This is dangerous since it can abuse deck stacking and leaves the card on top of your library allowing you can activate it during your opponent's turn, then again during your upkeep if you hit something really juicy.
Original Self - Should just be worded like Miming Slime.
Primal Mimic - Seems like this should follow the example of Quicksilver Gargantuan. Otherwise it shouldn't be copying; it should just create a token like Broken Visage/Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet/Ritual of the Returned. I'm also reminded of Riptide Mangler as another option that could work well in green, although if you go that direction Riptide Mangler should have had a targeting restriction "another target creature".
Wurminize - Huge colorbleed. However, make that "noncreature spell" and an Ooze or Elemental token for better flavor and it might be acceptable enough for a special non-standard-legal product like a commander set where colorbleeds appear to be more acceptable.
Mitotic Imitator - This is probably too good with enter/leave triggers, plus the "smaller" tokens actually get bigger with anything that enters with +1/+1 counters. You could get a similar flavor by working like Body Double or Ritual of the Returned.
Clay Clone 3(G/U)
Creature - Shapeshifter (R)
You may have Clay Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature you control if you spent G to cast it.
You may have Clay Clone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature another player controls if you spent U to cast it.
0/0
1) You make one choice, then the second choice overwrites the first choice.
2) You make one choice, then the second ability is no longer there to be applied.
Functionally though, it doesn't really matter either way. The player just chooses any creature to copy like with Clone. It only ever enters as a copy of one creature. It doesn't enter, then suddenly change. You don't need to call over a judge because your opponent doesn't know the intricacies of how the two replacement effects interact.
Actually, I made this card before, inspired by cards like Sakashima the Impostor that make copies except remember some previous characteristic.
Creature - Elemental (R)
Vigilance
You may have CARDNAME enter the battlefield as a copy of any land on the battlefield, except it’s a 3/3 green Elemental creature in addition to its other colors and types and it has vigilance.
3/3
Alpha (This creature's base power is equal to the greatest base power among creatures on the battlefield.
The problem with your version is if you have any kind of power boost, like a +1/+1 counter or Glorious Anthem, then its power keeps raising itself because of layers.
A quick breakdown of how and why this happens
Layer 7 power/toughness
a-Characteristic defining abilities
b--Setting base power/toughness
c---Effects that modify power/toughness without setting
d----Changes from counters
e-----Switching power/toughness
Your effect sets its power in layer a, then it will get a buff from either layer c or d, having gotten this buff its ability sees a creature with a new highest power so it goes to layer a to set it to the new highest, then in layer c or d it gets the buff again, ad nauseam. I assume that your ability is a CDA so it works in all zones, though even if it isn't it still has the same problem just occurring in layer b rather than a.
Using Base in the check means that it won't see any power boosts so there is no loop but it will also not gain a benefit from opponents glorious anthem effects.
-----------------------
Green
Miming Slime
Giant Adephage
Horncaller's Chant
Crackly Counterpart 1GG
Instant
Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control.
Flashback 5GG
Referencing Cackling Counterpart. Very similar to populate, actually.
Mitosis 7GG
Sorcery
For each creature you control, create a token that's a copy of that creature.
Referencing Clone Legion.
-----------------------
Blue
Devious Impersonator 2UU
Creature - Shapeshifter
You may have Devious Impersonator enter the battlefield as a copy of any nonland permanent on the battlefield that an opponent controls.
0/0
Referencing Clever Impersonator.
Drone 3U
Creature - Shapeshifter
You may have Drone enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature on the battlefield that an opponent controls.
0/0
Referencing Clone.
Tezzeret's Plagiarism 4UU
Sorcery
Choose one or both —
-Create a token that's a copy of target artifact you don't control.
-Create a token that's a copy of target creature you don't control, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types.
Referencing Saheeli's Artistry.
What do people think?
Layers don't loop like that though. The real problem (I think) with that previous version would be when there are multiple alpha creatures each one could have different values. The alpha creature with the oldest time stamp would use the highest power among non-alpha creatures, then if that creature's power is raised in layers 7c, 7d, or 7e the alpha creature with the next time stamp would use that new number, continuing for each subsequent time stamped alpha creature.
I love this! Your color breakdown of artifact copying is interesting. This mechanic is young (only 9 cards in the history of the game can copy noncreature artifacts), so the color pie has yet to be strongly developed around it.
If white does what you suggest...
Factory Floor 4
Artifact
4,t: Create a Contraption artifact token with "W: Sacrifice this artifact: you gain 3 life."
Factory Foreman 2WU
Creature - Dwarf Artificer
At the beginning of your upkeep, assemble (create a token that's a copy of an artifact token you control.)
Whenever you assemble a Contraption, draw a card.
1/1
Not quite there yet, of course, since here it is you that assembles instead of your Riggers. And it's in white instead of red. But I wanted to throw it out there as a possible starting point.