Information Leak (Common) 2U
Enchantment
When Information Leak enters the battlefield, draw a card. Inform - Whenever you draw a card, each opponent puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Phantasmal Strangler (Common) 3UB
Creature - Illusion Horror
2/5 Inform - Whenever you draw a card, you may switch Phantasmal Strangler's power and toughness until end of turn. A painless death. Followed by immense pain.
Sewer Sneak (Common) (U/B)
Creature - Merfolk Rogue
1/1 Inform - Whenever you draw a card, Sewer Sneak gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Every tunnel leads to a dead end.
Messenger Crow (Common) UB
Creature - Bird Minion
2/2 Inform - Whenever you draw a card, Messenger Crow gains flying until end of turn.
Contract Killer (Common) 3B
Creature - Orc Assassin Mercenary
2/3
Deathtouch Inform - Whenever you draw a card, Contract Killer gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
Bonus
Morbid Fascination (Rare) XUUBB
Sorcery
Each opponent puts the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard and you draw X cards.
Phantasm (Common) 3U
Creature – Illusion
2/2
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Flying
Thought Grifter (Common) 2U
Creature – Merfolk Rogue
1/3
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Whenever Thought Grifter infiltrates, defending player exiles the top two cards of his or her library.
Sewer Squid (Common) 5(U/B)
Creature – Squid
4/4
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Contract Killer (Common) 1B
Creature – Human Assassin
1/2
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Deathtouch
Dungeon Rats (Common) B
Creature – Rat
1/1
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Whenever Dungeon Rats infiltrates, defending player exiles two cards from his or her graveyard.
Dimir Saboteur (Common) 2B
Creature – Goblin Rogue
1/3
When Dimir Saboteur enters the battlefield, sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Defile (Common) 4B
Sorcery
Destroy target land, then sabotage the top card of its controller’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
False Documents (Common) (U/B)
Sorcery
Target opponent puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Sabotage the top card of that player’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Gather Intelligence (Common) 1U
Sorcery
Sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Draw a card.
Political Pawn (Common) 2U
Creature – Homunculus
2/1
When Political Pawn dies, sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Eye Witness (Common) U
Creature – Homunculus
1/2
When Eye Witness enters the battlefield, interrogate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Goblin Informant (Common) 2B
Creature – Goblin Advisor
3/2
When Goblin Informant dies, interrogate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Mind Spike (Common) 1(U/B)
Sorcery
Interrogate, then target player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard for each Clue you control. (To interrogate, put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Wrack with Guilt (Common) 3B
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
When Wrack with Guilt enters the battlefield, interrogate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Enchanted ceature gets -2/-2 for each Clue you control.
Intimidate (Common) 2U
Instant
Target creature gets -3/-0 until end of turn.
Interrogate (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
I don't think these could be named Clues. That's too confusing... Maybe Report, Intel, or Scandal?
Clues are fine because they're available in every color; all colors get cantrips, after all. Interrogate, however, is a color break in every color except black. Blue simply doesn't get discard like this.
In addition, Clues propel the game and are fun. These are oppressive and unfun, especially since they work at instant speed.
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What kind of discard do you think it gets (seriously)? It seems to me that blue gets discard when WotC wants it to have discard and more-or-less always for flavor - Mindculling, Frightful Delusion, and Dismal Failure.
The thing is about the Ravnica bleeds, is that Dimir is predominantly blue, not black. White Extort and blue evolve worked because these guilds' flavor hinged a little more toward black and green respectively. But Dimir does not hinge toward black (at least it doesn't seem to do so for me). The concept is not entirely a bad idea (though see the next paragraph), I just don't think it quite fits the flavor of Dimir.
Personally I'm always concerned about a mechanic that makes players discard. It's very griefer-y, which I don't like to see in mechanics (as opposed to individual cards). That's more a personal thing though. ETA: I agree with Icarii that the concept of a mechanic flavored around interrogation would fit great. His proposal may or may not do the trick (I've seen it or variants before, maybe even in one of your own threads but I can't quite recall where).
Mindculling was in a set themed around black bleeds. As was Frightful Delusion. Dismal Failure is from Planar Chaos, and was showcasing how blue got small discard in that set. None of these are appropriate examples.
Saying it's a break was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, I apologize. It's more like it's a very big bleed.
Blue Transmute is fine... blue can fetch things from the library. Tutoring is well within their color pie, and in many ways, it makes more sense in blue than in black, even. Blue Unearth was an odd case, but it's basically just "I can use this creature again temporarily", which is really a thing any color can do, since all colors get access to creatures. (Persist and Undying, you may note, are also available to any color.) Blue Exploit makes a lot of sense; it just converts creatures into spell-effects, which is a very blue thing. There's nothing in blue's color pie that says it can't sacrifice creatures. Lastly, white Extort is odd in that it deals direct damage, yes, but direct damage in super-small amounts is available to pretty much every color, since the life total is so fundamental to the game, and 99% of decks win through depleting the opponent's life total.
While blue discard doesn't undermine the color's weaknesses at all, it's just a very weird thing to see in any color except black, since it's so emblematic of the color. In addition, it's just not fun in serious quantities. Cantrips make the game more fun as they give people ammo, and make sure interesting things keep happening. Drawing cards means more cards are played which makes games more exciting. Discarding, on the other hand, reduces the number of cards that can be played in a game of Magic, which means less stuff is happening, and people run out of steam faster, and games grow less exciting... you could get stuck with a board stall, or you could end up just oppressing your opponent and steamrolling them. Neither option seems particularly fun, to me!
This is what makes discard a very big bleed, rather than just a bleed. The more unfun a mechanic is, the less you want to bleed it. This is why taxing counterspells, though available in white, are not done very often; why make more of a mechanic that is oppressive and unfun in larger quantities?
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I think the flavor idea of interrogation as a dimir mechanic is interesting. I dont like how this mechanic will easily force your opponent to have no hand in limited.
Maybe something like this. Should be less of a color bleed too:
Shadow Captor1B
Creature - Spirit (C)
When Shadow Captor enters the battlefield, interrogate target opponent. (That player reveals a card at random from his or her hand. You may have that player discard that card. If you do, he or she draws a card.)
2/1
So Interrogate is an ugly baby. I guess I'll have to go with Infiltrate. I was hoping for a mechanic that could go on any spell card type. But I suppose I can still get an enchantment and/or a sorcery out of Infiltrate. It's simple but I think it poses some very interesting (but not confusing) combat scenarios.
Dimir Spy (Common) 1(U/B)
Creature - Human Rogue
2/1
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks, target creature can't block it this combat.)
The difficulty with Dimir is that we don't really have a really good model to try and work off. Each other guild has at least one mechanic that worked well and was a very good flavor fit. We don't have that for Dimir: Transmute was undesirable because of too much tutoring, and they pulled cipher back so much that it resulted in the cards being unplayable.
Infiltrate runs into the same issue that I had with Beguile: Dimir just doesn't strikes as a guild that manipulates combat, plus another evasion mechanic in blue/black... (and yes I rolled my eyes at skulk based on that particular factor).
I liked sabotage as a mechanic when you proposed it, even if I thought the cards offered were a little too pushed (and SecretInfiltrator's suggestion did a lot to fix my concerns). That Icarii suggested essentially the same thing goes to show it seems like a natural fit for the guild. What happened to that mechanic? Did it playtest poorly?
A random idea: Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.) It could possibly be just draw? I was hinging my chances a little admittedly since the mechanic will probably end on a draw spell eventually.
Just an AccidentB
Instant
Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.)
Sudden Impediments2U
Instant
Creatures your opponents control get -3/-0 until end of turn.
Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.)
Duskmantle Circler2UB
Creature — Drake
Flash, flying
Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.)
2/3
Thanks for the inspiration. I'm trying to avoid random effects. How about this? I like that it does everything Spy did and then some. It's in the Fateseal family, but softer in that you can't deprive your opponent of land. Sabotage commons are found in the op.
Sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
This looks a lot better though still horribly unfun for your opponent. Fateseal was horrible because it could lock your opponent in all lands or no lands, which ever was better for you. This can feel similar, but has the inability to deny lands. This is very dangerous if pushed. Does the Dimir mechanic have to feel so unfun?
UB mechanics and cards have a history of feeling unfun to play against (if not with). They just tend to bring out the worst in each other. I'm more concerned with "unfair" than "unfun". There will always be those that like a given mechanic and those that don't.
I think as of this post, the current version of Sabotage is fair (if not weak). It's not as bad as library, land, or hand destruction. As long as it doesn't warp limited, it's fine.
I agree fatesealing variants would be a dubious idea. I think Seek Fate from Suvnica can repurposed advantageously:
Spy on a player, then if you guessed right, [bonus] (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
Or maybe...
Dimir Spy
Creature — Rogue (C)
When ~ ETBs, Spy on a player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
Whenever you spy correctly, each opponent puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard.
2/1
Dimir Mindpeerer
Creature — Warrior (U)
When ~ ETBs, Spy on a player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
Whenever you spy correctly, you may have target creature get -1/-1 UEOT.
2/4
Recoverer of Secrets
Creature — Rogue (C)
Whenever ~ attacks, spy on the defending player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
2/2
Which doesn't preclude things like
Invade Mind
Instant
Target creature gets -2/-1 UEOT, then spy on that creature's controller. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
If you spied correctly, that creature gets an additional -2/-1.
Heft of Thoughts
Instant
Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains flying UEOT. Spy on a player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
If you spied correctly, instead put a 1/+1 counter on that creature and it gains flying UEOT.
And, obviously...
Pervade Thoughts
Sorcery
Spy on target player, then they reveal their hand and you choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
If you spied correctly, you may put the spied card on the bottom of its owner's library.
UB mechanics and cards have a history of feeling unfun to play against (if not with). They just tend to bring out the worst in each other. I'm more concerned with "unfair" than "unfun". There will always be those that like a given mechanic and those that don't.
This seems like a profoundly misguided attitude to me. Fun, surely, is of the utmost priority for something of which the whole purpose is almost solely just that? A balanced game is not necessarily a good game. A fun game is necessarily a good game, because that's what makes games good. Balance is a way of producing fun games, if balanced games were not generally funner than unbalanced ones, then balanced would be very much unimportant. Balance is just an aspect of fun in games.
The idea that usually not everybody will have the same fun is fine, but not because it's not a serious limitation, but because there is only so much you can do, not everyone will like what you are trying to do. The goal then is to find an audience and makes this as fun as possible for them.
So who is the audience for this mechanic?
I very much suspect that nobody will find this mechanic really fun except griefer players, who by their nature, unfortunately, will always get the short end of the stick because they are the minority and catering to them inherently goes against the interests of the larger audience.
In general, I think hurting the opponent's choices is less fun than helping the user's choices, because the direction of most impact is toward the negative experience not the positive.
I'm so happy! My Dimir finally have a mechanic that even Goldy Locks would like. It's the lovechild of Prowess and Dethrone. Perhaps it's evergreen worthy?
So your giving Dimir frenzy 1(Frenzy Sliver) with an unneeded toughness attached? It works and I understand the need to re-brand because frenzy as a word doesn't make any sense for Dimir, but why the toughness added?
And no one (designers included, I'd guess) is aesthetically pleased when a named mechanic has its name straight up replaced without at least a small cosmetic change.
Except it does have a small cosmetic change. The toughness.
I think the mechanic is okay, it's definitely fine as a guild mechanic. Frenzy is (apparently) developmentally problematic, which I've never understood, but these seem fine. I've always liked it.
It does seem to be more red/black than blue/black, but this is fine.
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I'm so happy! My Dimir finally have a mechanic that even Goldy Locks would like. It's the lovechild of Prowess and Dethrone. Perhaps it's evergreen worthy?
Where is that miracle mechanic? From my spot I can see interogate which is obviously an investigate derivate, sabotage which is a fateseal derivate and infiltrate which looks like a frenzy derivate. I would like to see this great mechanic that combines the positives of prowess and dethrone. I can only assume the positives their lovechild would have ar the soft modular deckbuilding implications of prowess and the influence on in-gamedecision making of dethrone both on combat relevant keywords. That would be neat.
UB mechanics and cards have a history of feeling unfun to play against (if not with). They just tend to bring out the worst in each other. I'm more concerned with "unfair" than "unfun". There will always be those that like a given mechanic and those that don't.
With such a mindset it's no wonder you come up with unfun mechanics. If your first design instinct is not to search for the most fun ideas in the vast space of blue-black mechanics, then it just becomes more likely that you miss the fun ideas and end up settling for the unfun you already accepted in your mind as unavoidable.
Even if a particular card or mechanic is "unfun" designers can learn to get the most enjoyable ideas from it by analysing which parts create "fun" and which don't and try to recreate the former without the later - maybe just look at the most enjoyable games involving blue-black strategies and see why they worked for everybody etc. Try to build a new blue-black deck avoiding unfun cards and see what you end up with.
---
I'm not saying your mechanics are overall bad and unusable, but maybe a different attitude would help. Infiltrate e. g. is not obviously bad. I designed it myself half a dozen times, as I expect many of us have, and it always is charmingly simple. It does not though solve the problems of frenzy and the aesthetic change is a lateral move more than an improvement (easier to grok vs. setting up false expectations of toughness mattering).
I think infiltrate can fill out the role of a small utility mechanic similar to skulk and will avoid hurting too much of the concerns frenzy brings. On the other hand I doubt it will play on the strong themes of Dimir quiet as nicely. It is a fine mechanic to settle on if you find nothing better fitting to Dimir.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I love infiltrate. So much. It adds a simple yet interesting variable to combat math that's conveniently maximised by the key limited strategies of UB: bounce, tap, destroy.
I would also love this mechanic, but apparently frenzy has development issues, so I'm going to be more reserved about it. Needs testing to work out the extent of the issue.
I know Dev has said this is a develop challenged mechanic. So we take the stance that it is and try to think why? The only thing I can see it that for balancing purpose the creatures should be treated as though the always have the buff. Of course this leads to the same problem with Cipher a interesting mechanic that you reign in excessively making it look, and probably is, massively under powered on everything but the most pushed card. Though ample testing should resolve this problem as it will allow you to more accurately find the sweet spot on power, while WoTC can't dedicate too much time to finding this mythical spot so its easier to scrap something with these concerns.
If your first design instinct is not to search for the most fun ideas in the vast space of blue-black mechanics, then it just becomes more likely that you miss the fun ideas and end up settling for the unfun you already accepted in your mind as unavoidable.
I freely admit that I have natural griefer tendencies when it comes to gaming. I'm wary of that tendency when designing. But if you research every UB (only) multicolored card, you will see that they tend to bring out the worst in each other - counter (spells), discard, mill, Extraction, tutoring, card draw, recursion, etc. In short: Zone Manipulation, which constitutes many of the least fun aspects of Magic to play against.
I would also love this mechanic, but apparently frenzy has development issues, so I'm going to be more reserved about it. Needs testing to work out the extent of the issue.
I hope to test some tonight. Do you know what the issues are? Does anyone?
I suspect it has something to do with MTGO. Or the complexity of the particular application seen on Frenzy Sliver.
I'm guessing the difficulty with Frenzy is to make it relevant without making it too relevant. After all, it's just a conditional version of (creature) power.
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Information Leak (Common)
2U
Enchantment
When Information Leak enters the battlefield, draw a card.
Inform - Whenever you draw a card, each opponent puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Phantasmal Strangler (Common)
3UB
Creature - Illusion Horror
2/5
Inform - Whenever you draw a card, you may switch Phantasmal Strangler's power and toughness until end of turn.
A painless death. Followed by immense pain.
Sewer Sneak (Common)
(U/B)
Creature - Merfolk Rogue
1/1
Inform - Whenever you draw a card, Sewer Sneak gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Every tunnel leads to a dead end.
Messenger Crow (Common)
UB
Creature - Bird Minion
2/2
Inform - Whenever you draw a card, Messenger Crow gains flying until end of turn.
Contract Killer (Common)
3B
Creature - Orc Assassin Mercenary
2/3
Deathtouch
Inform - Whenever you draw a card, Contract Killer gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
Bonus
Morbid Fascination (Rare)
XUUBB
Sorcery
Each opponent puts the top X cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard and you draw X cards.
Phantasm (Common)
3U
Creature – Illusion
2/2
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Flying
Thought Grifter (Common)
2U
Creature – Merfolk Rogue
1/3
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Whenever Thought Grifter infiltrates, defending player exiles the top two cards of his or her library.
Sewer Squid (Common)
5(U/B)
Creature – Squid
4/4
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Contract Killer (Common)
1B
Creature – Human Assassin
1/2
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Deathtouch
Dungeon Rats (Common)
B
Creature – Rat
1/1
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks and isn’t blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Whenever Dungeon Rats infiltrates, defending player exiles two cards from his or her graveyard.
2B
Creature – Goblin Rogue
1/3
When Dimir Saboteur enters the battlefield, sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Defile (Common)
4B
Sorcery
Destroy target land, then sabotage the top card of its controller’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
False Documents (Common)
(U/B)
Sorcery
Target opponent puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Sabotage the top card of that player’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Gather Intelligence (Common)
1U
Sorcery
Sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
Draw a card.
Political Pawn (Common)
2U
Creature – Homunculus
2/1
When Political Pawn dies, sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
U
Creature – Homunculus
1/2
When Eye Witness enters the battlefield, interrogate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Goblin Informant (Common)
2B
Creature – Goblin Advisor
3/2
When Goblin Informant dies, interrogate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Mind Spike (Common)
1(U/B)
Sorcery
Interrogate, then target player puts the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard for each Clue you control. (To interrogate, put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Wrack with Guilt (Common)
3B
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
When Wrack with Guilt enters the battlefield, interrogate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Enchanted ceature gets -2/-2 for each Clue you control.
Intimidate (Common)
2U
Instant
Target creature gets -3/-0 until end of turn.
Interrogate (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Target player discards a card if it's your turn.")
Clues are fine because they're available in every color; all colors get cantrips, after all. Interrogate, however, is a color break in every color except black. Blue simply doesn't get discard like this.
In addition, Clues propel the game and are fun. These are oppressive and unfun, especially since they work at instant speed.
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What precedent do you think R&D drew from for blue Transmute, Unearth, and even Exploit; and of course white Extort?
What kind of discard do you think it gets (seriously)? It seems to me that blue gets discard when WotC wants it to have discard and more-or-less always for flavor - Mindculling, Frightful Delusion, and Dismal Failure.
Added sorcery speed clause.
Personally I'm always concerned about a mechanic that makes players discard. It's very griefer-y, which I don't like to see in mechanics (as opposed to individual cards). That's more a personal thing though. ETA: I agree with Icarii that the concept of a mechanic flavored around interrogation would fit great. His proposal may or may not do the trick (I've seen it or variants before, maybe even in one of your own threads but I can't quite recall where).
Saying it's a break was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, I apologize. It's more like it's a very big bleed.
Blue Transmute is fine... blue can fetch things from the library. Tutoring is well within their color pie, and in many ways, it makes more sense in blue than in black, even. Blue Unearth was an odd case, but it's basically just "I can use this creature again temporarily", which is really a thing any color can do, since all colors get access to creatures. (Persist and Undying, you may note, are also available to any color.) Blue Exploit makes a lot of sense; it just converts creatures into spell-effects, which is a very blue thing. There's nothing in blue's color pie that says it can't sacrifice creatures. Lastly, white Extort is odd in that it deals direct damage, yes, but direct damage in super-small amounts is available to pretty much every color, since the life total is so fundamental to the game, and 99% of decks win through depleting the opponent's life total.
While blue discard doesn't undermine the color's weaknesses at all, it's just a very weird thing to see in any color except black, since it's so emblematic of the color. In addition, it's just not fun in serious quantities. Cantrips make the game more fun as they give people ammo, and make sure interesting things keep happening. Drawing cards means more cards are played which makes games more exciting. Discarding, on the other hand, reduces the number of cards that can be played in a game of Magic, which means less stuff is happening, and people run out of steam faster, and games grow less exciting... you could get stuck with a board stall, or you could end up just oppressing your opponent and steamrolling them. Neither option seems particularly fun, to me!
This is what makes discard a very big bleed, rather than just a bleed. The more unfun a mechanic is, the less you want to bleed it. This is why taxing counterspells, though available in white, are not done very often; why make more of a mechanic that is oppressive and unfun in larger quantities?
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Maybe something like this. Should be less of a color bleed too:
Shadow Captor 1B
Creature - Spirit (C)
When Shadow Captor enters the battlefield, interrogate target opponent. (That player reveals a card at random from his or her hand. You may have that player discard that card. If you do, he or she draws a card.)
2/1
Dimir Spy (Common)
1(U/B)
Creature - Human Rogue
2/1
Infiltrate (Whenever this creature attacks, target creature can't block it this combat.)
etc.
Infiltrate runs into the same issue that I had with Beguile: Dimir just doesn't strikes as a guild that manipulates combat, plus another evasion mechanic in blue/black... (and yes I rolled my eyes at skulk based on that particular factor).
I liked sabotage as a mechanic when you proposed it, even if I thought the cards offered were a little too pushed (and SecretInfiltrator's suggestion did a lot to fix my concerns). That Icarii suggested essentially the same thing goes to show it seems like a natural fit for the guild. What happened to that mechanic? Did it playtest poorly?
A random idea: Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.) It could possibly be just draw? I was hinging my chances a little admittedly since the mechanic will probably end on a draw spell eventually.
Just an Accident B
Instant
Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.)
Sudden Impediments 2U
Instant
Creatures your opponents control get -3/-0 until end of turn.
Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.)
Duskmantle Circler 2UB
Creature — Drake
Flash, flying
Bide time (If you cast this spell during your main phase, you may draw a card, then discard a card.)
2/3
Sabotage the top card of target opponent’s library. (Look at it. If it’s a nonland card, you may reveal it and put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.)
UB mechanics and cards have a history of feeling unfun to play against (if not with). They just tend to bring out the worst in each other. I'm more concerned with "unfair" than "unfun". There will always be those that like a given mechanic and those that don't.
I think as of this post, the current version of Sabotage is fair (if not weak). It's not as bad as library, land, or hand destruction. As long as it doesn't warp limited, it's fine.
Spy on a player, then if you guessed right, [bonus] (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
Or maybe...
Dimir Spy
Creature — Rogue (C)
When ~ ETBs, Spy on a player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
Whenever you spy correctly, each opponent puts the top two cards of their library into their graveyard.
2/1
Dimir Mindpeerer
Creature — Warrior (U)
When ~ ETBs, Spy on a player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
Whenever you spy correctly, you may have target creature get -1/-1 UEOT.
2/4
Recoverer of Secrets
Creature — Rogue (C)
Whenever ~ attacks, spy on the defending player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
2/2
Which doesn't preclude things like
Invade Mind
Instant
Target creature gets -2/-1 UEOT, then spy on that creature's controller. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
If you spied correctly, that creature gets an additional -2/-1.
Heft of Thoughts
Instant
Target creature gets +1/+1 and gains flying UEOT. Spy on a player. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
If you spied correctly, instead put a 1/+1 counter on that creature and it gains flying UEOT.
And, obviously...
Pervade Thoughts
Sorcery
Spy on target player, then they reveal their hand and you choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. (To spy, choose land or nonland, then reveal the top card of that player's library.)
If you spied correctly, you may put the spied card on the bottom of its owner's library.
This seems like a profoundly misguided attitude to me. Fun, surely, is of the utmost priority for something of which the whole purpose is almost solely just that? A balanced game is not necessarily a good game. A fun game is necessarily a good game, because that's what makes games good. Balance is a way of producing fun games, if balanced games were not generally funner than unbalanced ones, then balanced would be very much unimportant. Balance is just an aspect of fun in games.
The idea that usually not everybody will have the same fun is fine, but not because it's not a serious limitation, but because there is only so much you can do, not everyone will like what you are trying to do. The goal then is to find an audience and makes this as fun as possible for them.
So who is the audience for this mechanic?
I very much suspect that nobody will find this mechanic really fun except griefer players, who by their nature, unfortunately, will always get the short end of the stick because they are the minority and catering to them inherently goes against the interests of the larger audience.
In general, I think hurting the opponent's choices is less fun than helping the user's choices, because the direction of most impact is toward the negative experience not the positive.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
This looks to be quite wordy, and I suspect the variance in it would frustrate players.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Practical aesthetics. It's just easier to grock.
I think the mechanic is okay, it's definitely fine as a guild mechanic. Frenzy is (apparently) developmentally problematic, which I've never understood, but these seem fine. I've always liked it.
It does seem to be more red/black than blue/black, but this is fine.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
Where is that miracle mechanic? From my spot I can see interogate which is obviously an investigate derivate, sabotage which is a fateseal derivate and infiltrate which looks like a frenzy derivate. I would like to see this great mechanic that combines the positives of prowess and dethrone. I can only assume the positives their lovechild would have ar the soft modular deckbuilding implications of prowess and the influence on in-gamedecision making of dethrone both on combat relevant keywords. That would be neat.
With such a mindset it's no wonder you come up with unfun mechanics. If your first design instinct is not to search for the most fun ideas in the vast space of blue-black mechanics, then it just becomes more likely that you miss the fun ideas and end up settling for the unfun you already accepted in your mind as unavoidable.
Even if a particular card or mechanic is "unfun" designers can learn to get the most enjoyable ideas from it by analysing which parts create "fun" and which don't and try to recreate the former without the later - maybe just look at the most enjoyable games involving blue-black strategies and see why they worked for everybody etc. Try to build a new blue-black deck avoiding unfun cards and see what you end up with.
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I'm not saying your mechanics are overall bad and unusable, but maybe a different attitude would help. Infiltrate e. g. is not obviously bad. I designed it myself half a dozen times, as I expect many of us have, and it always is charmingly simple. It does not though solve the problems of frenzy and the aesthetic change is a lateral move more than an improvement (easier to grok vs. setting up false expectations of toughness mattering).
I think infiltrate can fill out the role of a small utility mechanic similar to skulk and will avoid hurting too much of the concerns frenzy brings. On the other hand I doubt it will play on the strong themes of Dimir quiet as nicely. It is a fine mechanic to settle on if you find nothing better fitting to Dimir.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Plus it doesn't have the number. I realize the lack of such a gauge limits design space, but I'm okay with that (for now).
I freely admit that I have natural griefer tendencies when it comes to gaming. I'm wary of that tendency when designing. But if you research every UB (only) multicolored card, you will see that they tend to bring out the worst in each other - counter (spells), discard, mill, Extraction, tutoring, card draw, recursion, etc. In short: Zone Manipulation, which constitutes many of the least fun aspects of Magic to play against.
It has nice synergy with Cipher?
I hope to test some tonight. Do you know what the issues are? Does anyone?
I suspect it has something to do with MTGO. Or the complexity of the particular application seen on Frenzy Sliver.