Totally Not Black Creature Destruction1UU
Instant
Return target creature to the top of it's owner's library, then put the top card of that library in the graveyard.
Your card, if you seperate the abilities, looks green, but the total effect isn't.
Venomous Predator isn't a color pie break like Beast Within, but like Ezuri's Predation it's too cheaty. It would work fine as a BG card.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I'm not on board with the idea that this is a pie-breaker. Everything about this card us squarely in green. It's about as much of a color pie break to me as casting Prey Upon on your Ambush Viper. Come to think of it, the the logic currently being used in this thread, would you guys consider flashing in an Ambush Viper for a surprise block to be a pie break as well?
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
slightly off topic but if you worded mondu's card like this, would it be blue?
Possibly Not Black Creature Destruction1UU
Instant
Return target creature to the top of it's owner's library, then each player may put the top card of their library in the graveyard.
Your card is a color pie break. Mark Rosewater speaks of a card just like this in his tumblr - "blogatog" quite often as his example of a card that uses in color abilities to do stuff the color can't.
When it comes to judging whether something is within a color's boundaries - or a 'bend' of their boundaries - or a flat-out break - we look to what the card actually accomplishes and does, and compare it to the color's established weaknesses. If the sum of the card's parts add up to a product that defies the weaknesses of the card's color, then it's a color-pie break.
Venomous Predator is not green, and Monoblue Murder likewise not blue, for this reason. Individually, Ambush Viper and Prey Upon are certainly green. But in conjunction, you produce a card that is its own singular near-guaranteed removal spell, without relying on another creature. Green's card draw and 'removal' (fighting) rely on the creatures you already control to do the work. (This is what Polukranos uses to get by - you have to have 'already controlled' it for the Monstrosity fight to work. Sneaky, I know.) A 'sudden answer' isn't good enough for green - it has to have been present. (Flash creatures only work as 'removal' if the creature was entering combat and inherently being put at risk, negating much of the problematic nature of a 'sudden answer'.)
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Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
How far could you push this kind of thing before it breaks pie?
Would this be k? Like, personally it feels like a bend into white rather than black now.
When it comes to judging whether something is within a color's boundaries - or a 'bend' of their boundaries - or a flat-out break - we look to what the card actually accomplishes and does, and compare it to the color's established weaknesses. If the sum of the card's parts add up to a product that defies the weaknesses of the card's color, then it's a color-pie break.
Venomous Predator is not green, and Monoblue Murder likewise not blue, for this reason. Individually, Ambush Viper and Prey Upon are certainly green. But in conjunction, you produce a card that is its own singular near-guaranteed removal spell, without relying on another creature. Green's card draw and 'removal' (fighting) rely on the creatures you already control to do the work. (This is what Polukranos uses to get by - you have to have 'already controlled' it for the Monstrosity fight to work. Sneaky, I know.) A 'sudden answer' isn't good enough for green - it has to have been present. (Flash creatures only work as 'removal' if the creature was entering combat and inherently being put at risk, negating much of the problematic nature of a 'sudden answer'.)
This post and the one giving the blue murder spell are totally missing the fact that venomous predator is not nearly as effective as murder at killing creatures because it is fizzled by a removal spell. This fact makes the card ring of green. One of the major weaknesses of cards like prey upon is that if your creature is killed, the result is a two for one. Obviously, attaching the deathtouch creature to the prey upon spell makes the card significantly stronger, but if you are looking for a murder effect, it is not as strong an option.
slightly off topic but if you worded mondu's card like this, would it be blue?
Possibly Not Black Creature Destruction1UU
Instant
Return target creature to the top of it's owner's library, then each player may put the top card of their library in the graveyard.
This is interesting. To make it more interesting you could make it a clash decides where the card goes
This post and the one giving the blue murder spell are totally missing the fact that venomous predator is not nearly as effective as murder at killing creatures because it is fizzled by a removal spell. This fact makes the card ring of green. One of the major weaknesses of cards like prey upon is that if your creature is killed, the result is a two for one. Obviously, attaching the deathtouch creature to the prey upon spell makes the card significantly stronger, but if you are looking for a murder effect, it is not as strong an option.
The vulnerability is definitely a part of the 'cost' of green's removal, but I think a part of is that you have to work to find the 'guaranteed kill'. Deathtouch and fight on a single creature is very close to guaranteed kill - too close, I feel. It's both vulnerability and having to work to find the right 'ammo'.
Known as Inanimate at Goblin Artisans, and TyrRev at /r/custommagic!
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The vulnerability is definitely a part of the 'cost' of green's removal, but I think a part of is that you have to work to find the 'guaranteed kill'. Deathtouch and fight on a single creature is very close to guaranteed kill - too close, I feel. It's both vulnerability and having to work to find the right 'ammo'.
Is ease of access to different components of the overall effect actually a factor in determining whether a card with that effect is in-color or not? Depending on the answer to this question, it may be possible to alter the OP's card (and mondu's example) so that they fit within mono-green and mono-blue, respectively.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Thought Criminal, that's a good question. Yes and no. In some cases, like Red's randomness and punisher abilities, the color gets access to more because of the very fact they aren't guaranteed access to it, but have to spend inordinate amounts of risk and hope that they get the desired effect. That's very specific to red's flavor, though.
Green's way of using creatures as removal is asking the question "Do you have a creature that can actually kill that creature?" There have been creatures like Foe-Razer Regent that are relatively big and enable themselves to fight, but that's still basically a "deal 4 damage" spell that puts the creature at risk against many of the worst things you're trying to defeat. Getting a creature to fight and trade profitably or survive is green's main 'weakness' in this form of removal, so supplying a creature guaranteed to trade profitably most of the time is the problem here.
For "Monoblue Murder", the issue is that you're permanently removing a creature with a near-100% guarantee. Blue can remove creatures for a VERY LONG time (shuffle it into it's owner's library) but it just can't throw a creature into the yard like that with a single card. An effect that makes it more unreliable, like a punisher or random outcome, could help, but the end product - 'randomly hope you get the outcome you want' - doesn't feel as blue as it does red.
So, to answer concisely - ease of access matters sometimes. I think for the green card we could certainly change it to fit more - cost it higher (so that it's not a guaranteed profitable trade) or remove the deathtouch (so it's not a guaranteed kill) - but for monoblue murder I don't see as many ways to fix it.
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Okay so deathtouch + fight on one card is probably cheating too much.
How about this?
Ferocious Predator1GG
Creature - Bear
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
4/2
Removed deathtouch and gave it +1/+1. This wouldn't be the first 3 mana 4/2 with upside in green. I feel like at 4 power it can act like a killspell most of the time and with the small boost in toughness it can take out a small creature and live to fight another turn, but anything bigger will cost you the creature.
How far could you push this kind of thing before it breaks pie?
Would this be k? Like, personally it feels like a bend into white rather than black now.
The concern is making a green Murder. Plummet is already a green card. Green is allowed to kill creatures with flying. If Ambush Viper is fine, which it appears to be treated similar to instants like Lace with Moonglove, then also giving it reach is no problem. If you were worried about power level, then it could maybe also have an ability like Gloomwidow so it can only block flying creatures.
Taking that back to the first card, if it had a Plummet restriction, then it would probably be okay.
Venomous Spider1GG Creature - Spider (U)
Deathtouch, reach
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature with flying an opponent controls.
3/1
Okay so deathtouch + fight on one card is probably cheating too much.
How about this?
Ferocious Predator1GG
Creature - Bear
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
4/2
Removed deathtouch and gave it +1/+1. This wouldn't be the first 3 mana 4/2 with upside in green. I feel like at 4 power it can act like a killspell most of the time and with the small boost in toughness it can take out a small creature and live to fight another turn, but anything bigger will cost you the creature.
At 4/2 I would not want to see that costing any less than four mana like Flametongue Kavu. You could maybe do 2/2 at three mana, but that still seems like a push.
How far could you push this kind of thing before it breaks pie?
Would this be k? Like, personally it feels like a bend into white rather than black now.
The concern is making a green Murder. Plummet is already a green card. Green is allowed to kill creatures with flying. If Ambush Viper is fine, which it appears to be treated similar to instants like Lace with Moonglove, then also giving it reach is no problem. If you were worried about power level, then it could maybe also have an ability like Gloomwidow so it can only block flying creatures.
Taking that back to the first card, if it had a Plummet restriction, then it would probably be okay.
Venomous Spider1GG Creature - Spider (U)
Deathtouch, reach
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature with flying an opponent controls.
3/1
Okay so deathtouch + fight on one card is probably cheating too much.
How about this?
Ferocious Predator1GG
Creature - Bear
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
4/2
Removed deathtouch and gave it +1/+1. This wouldn't be the first 3 mana 4/2 with upside in green. I feel like at 4 power it can act like a killspell most of the time and with the small boost in toughness it can take out a small creature and live to fight another turn, but anything bigger will cost you the creature.
At 4/2 I would not want to see that costing any less than four mana like Flametongue Kavu. You could maybe do 2/2 at three mana, but that still seems like a push.
Edit AGAIN: UUGH WHY IS THIS HAPPENING! I was pointing out Alpine Grizzly, Boon Satyr, Leery Fogbeast, and Yasova Dragonclaw (all 3cmc 4/2s with considerable upsides(well, except for Alpine Grizzly, which is just a vanilla 4/2 at common)).
It is not the 4/2 for three mana body that I have a problem with. It is 4/2 with the built in Prey Upon that is a concern. Boon Satyr is the closest thing in that link. But, as discussed with Ambush Viper, there is still a big difference between using flash to surprise block an attacking creature and using a built-in enter trigger to fight with any creature. Foe-Razer Regent costs seven mana for the same 4 power fight. Other enter triggered fights require other colors, other cards, or give your opponent some choice in the matter like Nessian Wilds Ravager.
How far could you push this kind of thing before it breaks pie?
Would this be k? Like, personally it feels like a bend into white rather than black now.
The concern is making a green Murder. Plummet is already a green card. Green is allowed to kill creatures with flying. If Ambush Viper is fine, which it appears to be treated similar to instants like Lace with Moonglove, then also giving it reach is no problem. If you were worried about power level, then it could maybe also have an ability like Gloomwidow so it can only block flying creatures.
Taking that back to the first card, if it had a Plummet restriction, then it would probably be okay.
Venomous Spider1GG Creature - Spider (U)
Deathtouch, reach
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature with flying an opponent controls.
3/1
Okay so deathtouch + fight on one card is probably cheating too much.
How about this?
Ferocious Predator1GG
Creature - Bear
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
4/2
Removed deathtouch and gave it +1/+1. This wouldn't be the first 3 mana 4/2 with upside in green. I feel like at 4 power it can act like a killspell most of the time and with the small boost in toughness it can take out a small creature and live to fight another turn, but anything bigger will cost you the creature.
At 4/2 I would not want to see that costing any less than four mana like Flametongue Kavu. You could maybe do 2/2 at three mana, but that still seems like a push.
Second this. FTK was really good back in the day. Would still be amazing if printed in todays world. Yeah you run the risk of yours dying as a result of fighting but you also gain the advantage of pump spells making it more ridiculous.
I think when wotc representatives say stuff like, "Green can have (non-flying-hate) creature removal, but it has to be creature dependent," that means, "Green can have cards that remove creatures, but those cards need to depend on other cards or permanents that are creatures." "Dependent on X", in general, means "needs an external X"
Foe-Razer Regent is a bold exception to this rule! But it accurately covers most cases. I think FRR gets a pass because at a 7 mana investment, you will rarely use it in a way that doesn't leave a creature (soon to be an impressive 6/7) behind, so the cases where it acts as a green Murder are less frequent.
I think when wotc representatives say stuff like, "Green can have (non-flying-hate) creature removal, but it has to be creature dependent," that means, "Green can have cards that remove creatures, but those cards need to depend on other cards or permanents that are creatures." "Dependent on X", in general, means "needs an external X"
Foe-Razer Regent is a bold exception to this rule! But it accurately covers most cases. I think FRR gets a pass because at a 7 mana investment, you will rarely use it in a way that doesn't leave a creature (soon to be an impressive 6/7) behind, so the cases where it acts as a green Murder are less frequent.
But "4 damage to target creature" is not Murder. It's conditional in it's own way. Imo a ETB + Fight target creature is totally doable for as long the creature doesn't have Deathtouch.
Creature - Bear
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
4/2
Creature - Snake
Deathtouch
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
3/1
Instant
Return target creature to the top of it's owner's library, then put the top card of that library in the graveyard.
Your card, if you seperate the abilities, looks green, but the total effect isn't.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
-Chandra Nalaar
Possibly Not Black Creature Destruction 1UU
Instant
Return target creature to the top of it's owner's library, then each player may put the top card of their library in the graveyard.
WUR Control
WB Tokens
Venomous Predator is not green, and Monoblue Murder likewise not blue, for this reason. Individually, Ambush Viper and Prey Upon are certainly green. But in conjunction, you produce a card that is its own singular near-guaranteed removal spell, without relying on another creature. Green's card draw and 'removal' (fighting) rely on the creatures you already control to do the work. (This is what Polukranos uses to get by - you have to have 'already controlled' it for the Monstrosity fight to work. Sneaky, I know.) A 'sudden answer' isn't good enough for green - it has to have been present. (Flash creatures only work as 'removal' if the creature was entering combat and inherently being put at risk, negating much of the problematic nature of a 'sudden answer'.)
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
Would this be k? Like, personally it feels like a bend into white rather than black now.
Venomous Predator 2GG
Creature - Spider
Deathtouch, Flash, Reach
1/1
Art is life itself.
This post and the one giving the blue murder spell are totally missing the fact that venomous predator is not nearly as effective as murder at killing creatures because it is fizzled by a removal spell. This fact makes the card ring of green. One of the major weaknesses of cards like prey upon is that if your creature is killed, the result is a two for one. Obviously, attaching the deathtouch creature to the prey upon spell makes the card significantly stronger, but if you are looking for a murder effect, it is not as strong an option.
This is interesting. To make it more interesting you could make it a clash decides where the card goes
edit: similiar to whirlpool whelm
The vulnerability is definitely a part of the 'cost' of green's removal, but I think a part of is that you have to work to find the 'guaranteed kill'. Deathtouch and fight on a single creature is very close to guaranteed kill - too close, I feel. It's both vulnerability and having to work to find the right 'ammo'.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
Is ease of access to different components of the overall effect actually a factor in determining whether a card with that effect is in-color or not? Depending on the answer to this question, it may be possible to alter the OP's card (and mondu's example) so that they fit within mono-green and mono-blue, respectively.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Green's way of using creatures as removal is asking the question "Do you have a creature that can actually kill that creature?" There have been creatures like Foe-Razer Regent that are relatively big and enable themselves to fight, but that's still basically a "deal 4 damage" spell that puts the creature at risk against many of the worst things you're trying to defeat. Getting a creature to fight and trade profitably or survive is green's main 'weakness' in this form of removal, so supplying a creature guaranteed to trade profitably most of the time is the problem here.
For "Monoblue Murder", the issue is that you're permanently removing a creature with a near-100% guarantee. Blue can remove creatures for a VERY LONG time (shuffle it into it's owner's library) but it just can't throw a creature into the yard like that with a single card. An effect that makes it more unreliable, like a punisher or random outcome, could help, but the end product - 'randomly hope you get the outcome you want' - doesn't feel as blue as it does red.
So, to answer concisely - ease of access matters sometimes. I think for the green card we could certainly change it to fit more - cost it higher (so that it's not a guaranteed profitable trade) or remove the deathtouch (so it's not a guaranteed kill) - but for monoblue murder I don't see as many ways to fix it.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
My point is it isn't.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
How about this?
Ferocious Predator 1GG
Creature - Bear
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature an opponent controls.
4/2
Removed deathtouch and gave it +1/+1. This wouldn't be the first 3 mana 4/2 with upside in green. I feel like at 4 power it can act like a killspell most of the time and with the small boost in toughness it can take out a small creature and live to fight another turn, but anything bigger will cost you the creature.
Taking that back to the first card, if it had a Plummet restriction, then it would probably be okay.
Venomous Spider 1GG
Creature - Spider (U)
Deathtouch, reach
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature with flying an opponent controls.
3/1
At 4/2 I would not want to see that costing any less than four mana like Flametongue Kavu. You could maybe do 2/2 at three mana, but that still seems like a push.
While it might seem a little pushed, something tells me Ferociouos Predator could easily be printed in standard today.
Edit: Okay it doesn't look like my link is working. Here's the url I was pointing to: http://magiccards.info/query?q=t:"creature" c!g pow=4 tou=2 cmc=3&v=card&s=cname
Edit AGAIN: UUGH WHY IS THIS HAPPENING! I was pointing out Alpine Grizzly, Boon Satyr, Leery Fogbeast, and Yasova Dragonclaw (all 3cmc 4/2s with considerable upsides(well, except for Alpine Grizzly, which is just a vanilla 4/2 at common)).
It is not the 4/2 for three mana body that I have a problem with. It is 4/2 with the built in Prey Upon that is a concern. Boon Satyr is the closest thing in that link. But, as discussed with Ambush Viper, there is still a big difference between using flash to surprise block an attacking creature and using a built-in enter trigger to fight with any creature. Foe-Razer Regent costs seven mana for the same 4 power fight. Other enter triggered fights require other colors, other cards, or give your opponent some choice in the matter like Nessian Wilds Ravager.
Second this. FTK was really good back in the day. Would still be amazing if printed in todays world. Yeah you run the risk of yours dying as a result of fighting but you also gain the advantage of pump spells making it more ridiculous.
Totally Not Lightning Helix GG
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight target creature.
When ~ dies, gain 3 life.
3/1
Foe-Razer Regent is a bold exception to this rule! But it accurately covers most cases. I think FRR gets a pass because at a 7 mana investment, you will rarely use it in a way that doesn't leave a creature (soon to be an impressive 6/7) behind, so the cases where it acts as a green Murder are less frequent.
But "4 damage to target creature" is not Murder. It's conditional in it's own way. Imo a ETB + Fight target creature is totally doable for as long the creature doesn't have Deathtouch.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras