For Dreamscape (Previously Dreamscape of Noctus)
I just completed a 9 person physical playtest draft of my custom set Dreamscape over the weekend and it went really well. However after I was talking with Stairc and he still didn't like the current wording of my mechanic Memoir.
My current wording
Memoir X (When you cast this spell or it is put into your graveyard from your library, You may pay X If you do, copy it)
He thinks that the current wording has a flavor disconnect with two seemingly unconnected triggers and that as I've been working Dreamscape for ages I've gotten over how weird it reads.
So while none of the playtesters brought it up he had a good point so I want to ask a few things:
Does the current wording read strangely to you?
Is any of my alternate wordings read better?
Memoir v2 X(When this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, including after you cast it, you pay X. If you do, copy it.)
Memoir v3 X(When this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, you may pay X. If you do, copy it.
The question I would ask is how many people will not get that 'put it into your graveyard from anywhere' includes when you cast it. I don't think writing out the interaction is a good idea because some players could be confused by what that means in relation to the stack and resolving spells and it doesn't look very elegant either.
My thoughts is that the third version is the best, because it's easy enough for players to be told or to realise that it works with normal casting.
v3 it is for me as well. However, keep in mind if you copy a card and not a spell, you still have to cast the copy (without paying its mana cost). The original wording was incomplete in that regard anyway because when you cast it it is a spell, but when it's put into your graveyard from your library, it is a card.
One thing to note (and the reason I abandoned it) is that V3 is nearly completely impossible to grok for non experienced players, they don't realize that it means you can use the card like a kicker effect. Even experienced players usually have to read it a second time before they grok it. Not a good sign.
As for the copy wording I don't have the cast wording as it works differently if you are using it as memoir from your hand and from your library, so I didn't want one to trigger prowess like effects while the other didn't. I'm sure that direct copying can be made to work within the rules. And if not the reminder can can simply be slightly informal.
Honestly, if I had to choose between hard to grok and disconnected flavor, I'd choose hard to grok any day - especially considering your design goal. While disconnected flavor is always going to be a problem, the realization is a temporary issue. Also, a surprising realization of the mechanic's use can actually be a positive moment.
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The five Shadowmoor Lieges pump up all the creatures of their colors, then have an ability that makes the Liege itself a little better, whether it's flying, trample, flash, the anti-discard ability, or the "don't target me" ability. The five Eventide Lieges also pump all the creature of their colors, but they are a little different in that their individual abilities don't tend to help themselves, and instead tend to help your other cards of their colors. Creakwood Liege topped the charts here. Mark Rosewater loves to talk about the moment when players read Creakwood Liege and think "Ok, it's a four-mana Liege that makes a 1/1 every turn. [pause] [pause] Whoa, it makes a 3/3 every turn!" The moment of realization is a fun moment.
Basically, while both can be seen as disadvantages - the enduring lack of flavor is a larger issue than players not necessarily realizing that they can use the cards as a kicker at first. Additionally, it might even fit your design goal of twisting your normal perception of magic on its head.
I would prefer the mechanical applications of the card be more obvious than the flavor of it. Making sure people know how to play their cards properly trumps them knowing what the card actually represents, in my opinion. (And I think they'd still get the flavor after thinking about it for a bit)
Flavor is important, but Magic is a game first and foremost, so it should have satisfying gameplay. And a huge function of the cards - them working like kicker - being hidden from the players due to unintuitive wording seems counter to 'satisfying gameplay'. So, I would prefer v1 or v2.
I think v3 is only grokkable to people who are invested in the game. It's really unintuitive to new players that "going to the graveyard from anywhere" includes from the stack, at least, in my experience with new players.
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As I said before, I don't think writing out the interaction is a good idea because some players could be confused by the significance of that text and what that means in relation to the stack and resolving spells. It doesn't look very elegant either and takes up text space.
You know, I think it's the word "PUT into a graveyard". Because when an instant is PUT into a graveyard, it implies moving it there through some other effect. I wonder if the problem would be reduced if the wording "When this card goes to the graveyard" was in effect.
That is one of the major confusions Stairc, yeah. I think fixing that would work.
Legend, a lot of newbies just don't ever make the connection that instant being cast and going into the graveyard would trigger that. They think it has to be put there by a spell or ability to be "put in the graveyard".
Stairc: The flavor is that you 'remember' it when you're finished with it. "Finished" being when it is done being cast, or when it is sent to the graveyard. Both of them represent something coming to an end, and a memoir is what you do to reminiscence when something has come to an end, so... I agree it's more clunky since you have to realize two game actions represent the same thing flavorfully, but I think it's fine.
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Stairc: The flavor is that you 'remember' it when you're finished with it. "Finished" being when it is done being cast, or when it is sent to the graveyard. Both of them represent something coming to an end, and a memoir is what you do to reminiscence when something has come to an end, so... I agree it's more clunky since you have to realize two game actions represent the same thing flavorfully, but I think it's fine.
The problem is, why doesn't it trigger off being discarded then? Even if you find the unifying flavor, it isn't consistent with another game action that should fit that flavor... So that flavor doesn't really work. It's like when Maro talks about wanting to have "Fire" as a type for certain spells, but they can't because "Fireball" wouldn't be fire type, since it was printed before they'd introduce the type. Except, it's even worse here - because you have to make the connection yourself while also dealing with the fact it isn't consistent in terms of flavor. That's a pretty big problem.
I guess v4 could spell out "Cast, discarded or put into your graveyard from your library" - which at least keeps it consistent... But wow, that's clunky.
I've been a proponent of V3 since the start, and my opinion hasn't really changed. I would go to V2 if there was overwhelming evidence that new players couldn't Grok it, which still seems a little strange to me. Even then, this confusion basically only happens once, since after a player has learned of this interaction the first time it takes very little for them to remember it the next time.
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
If you are streamlining the trigger condition like in V2 or V3, then that also removes the problem where one of the triggers just copies the spell and the other needs you to copy the card and cast the copy.
Memoir {mana} (When this card goes to your graveyard from anywhere, you may copy it and cast the copy for {mana}.)
I would go to V2 if there was overwhelming evidence that new players couldn't Grok it, which still seems a little strange to me.
Well the reason I've kept changing the wording is that with V3 I've constantly had trouble with players groking it...
Thus my hesitation.
Assuming I'm not going to use V3 and that I don't care about the gameplay differences, is version 1 or 2 better?
Alternatively does anyone have an alternate wording that may be more grokable?
Wait, isn't this set designed for experienced players that want to try something that makes magic feel weird and alien and fresh again?
Are we worrying about a demographic the set isn't intended for? And also, isn't the set supposed to have surprising and unusual things like this?
This was exactly what I said the last time this topic came up.
You've already made certain design decisions on the basis of "this set is for experienced players", so this seems like a really weird thing to worry about.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Even then, this confusion basically only happens once, since after a player has learned of this interaction the first time it takes very little for them to remember it the next time.
I agree with the various other posters in the thread that say V3 is the way to go.
I'm not sure why "new player understandability" is such a high priority (and by this, I mean "new player" both as in one to Magic and one to the set). Aside from the already-mentioned goal of catering to more-experienced players, the comprehension issue seems to be mostly short-lived. Unlike with banding, where players consistently need to be reminded of how the mechanic works, a player only needs to be reminded a few times that memoir also works with the stack as a source zone.
Memoir is one of those mechanics that allows players to recognize that a part of the game that they didn't know existed actually exists (the stack). Premonition, which is another mechanic in your set, is a mechanic that allows players to do something extremely different that the rules wouldn't otherwise allow for at all (having face-up cards in libraries). Premonition, in my opinion, is therefore a step even further than memoir, and since there aren't really any problems with premonition, there shouldn't really be any with memoir, either.
Mechanical comprehension issues don't arise, either, since all it is that memoir does is mention that it also triggers from the stack. The mechanic itself alleviates the very comprehension issues that it presents -- if the worry is that players won't know about the stack and therefore won't understand it, then memoir will teach them that the stack exists and that objects can move from there to the graveyard.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
I would go to V2 if there was overwhelming evidence that new players couldn't Grok it, which still seems a little strange to me.
Well the reason I've kept changing the wording is that with V3 I've constantly had trouble with players groking it...
Thus my hesitation.
Assuming I'm not going to use V3 and that I don't care about the gameplay differences, is version 1 or 2 better?
Alternatively does anyone have an alternate wording that may be more grokable?
Honestly, I didn't get the flavor until TurboJustice spelled it out, but now that I do it seems like triggering off discard makes flavor sense, so I don't like v1. Here is my stab at a nicer wording of v2:
Memoir v4 X(When this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, you may pay X. If you do, copy it. Cards are put into the graveyard when they resolve.)
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I just completed a 9 person physical playtest draft of my custom set Dreamscape over the weekend and it went really well. However after I was talking with Stairc and he still didn't like the current wording of my mechanic Memoir.
My current wording
Memoir X (When you cast this spell or it is put into your graveyard from your library, You may pay X If you do, copy it)
He thinks that the current wording has a flavor disconnect with two seemingly unconnected triggers and that as I've been working Dreamscape for ages I've gotten over how weird it reads.
So while none of the playtesters brought it up he had a good point so I want to ask a few things:
Memoir v2 X(When this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, including after you cast it, you pay X. If you do, copy it.)
Memoir v3 X(When this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, you may pay X. If you do, copy it.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
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My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
My thoughts is that the third version is the best, because it's easy enough for players to be told or to realise that it works with normal casting.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
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As for the copy wording I don't have the cast wording as it works differently if you are using it as memoir from your hand and from your library, so I didn't want one to trigger prowess like effects while the other didn't. I'm sure that direct copying can be made to work within the rules. And if not the reminder can can simply be slightly informal.
Thoughts?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Basically, while both can be seen as disadvantages - the enduring lack of flavor is a larger issue than players not necessarily realizing that they can use the cards as a kicker at first. Additionally, it might even fit your design goal of twisting your normal perception of magic on its head.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
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It's very grockable imo.
Why V3 over V2?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Flavor is important, but Magic is a game first and foremost, so it should have satisfying gameplay. And a huge function of the cards - them working like kicker - being hidden from the players due to unintuitive wording seems counter to 'satisfying gameplay'. So, I would prefer v1 or v2.
I think v3 is only grokkable to people who are invested in the game. It's really unintuitive to new players that "going to the graveyard from anywhere" includes from the stack, at least, in my experience with new players.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
As I said before, I don't think writing out the interaction is a good idea because some players could be confused by the significance of that text and what that means in relation to the stack and resolving spells. It doesn't look very elegant either and takes up text space.
I am not sold on V3 though.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Can you explain the flavor of v1 to me? Because I STILL don't get it, and it's been weeks.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
Legend, a lot of newbies just don't ever make the connection that instant being cast and going into the graveyard would trigger that. They think it has to be put there by a spell or ability to be "put in the graveyard".
Stairc: The flavor is that you 'remember' it when you're finished with it. "Finished" being when it is done being cast, or when it is sent to the graveyard. Both of them represent something coming to an end, and a memoir is what you do to reminiscence when something has come to an end, so... I agree it's more clunky since you have to realize two game actions represent the same thing flavorfully, but I think it's fine.
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
The problem is, why doesn't it trigger off being discarded then? Even if you find the unifying flavor, it isn't consistent with another game action that should fit that flavor... So that flavor doesn't really work. It's like when Maro talks about wanting to have "Fire" as a type for certain spells, but they can't because "Fireball" wouldn't be fire type, since it was printed before they'd introduce the type. Except, it's even worse here - because you have to make the connection yourself while also dealing with the fact it isn't consistent in terms of flavor. That's a pretty big problem.
I guess v4 could spell out "Cast, discarded or put into your graveyard from your library" - which at least keeps it consistent... But wow, that's clunky.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Memoir {mana} (When this card goes to your graveyard from anywhere, you may copy it and cast the copy for {mana}.)
Well the reason I've kept changing the wording is that with V3 I've constantly had trouble with players groking it...
Thus my hesitation.
Assuming I'm not going to use V3 and that I don't care about the gameplay differences, is version 1 or 2 better?
Alternatively does anyone have an alternate wording that may be more grokable?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Are we worrying about a demographic the set isn't intended for? And also, isn't the set supposed to have surprising and unusual things like this?
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
You've already made certain design decisions on the basis of "this set is for experienced players", so this seems like a really weird thing to worry about.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Also this.
second the continual coddling and keeping players ignorant of the stack will just continue to prevent cool abilities like this from ever showing up.
........................
second the continual coddling and keeping players ignorant of the stack will just continue to prevent cool abilities like this from ever showing up.
........................
I'm not sure why "new player understandability" is such a high priority (and by this, I mean "new player" both as in one to Magic and one to the set). Aside from the already-mentioned goal of catering to more-experienced players, the comprehension issue seems to be mostly short-lived. Unlike with banding, where players consistently need to be reminded of how the mechanic works, a player only needs to be reminded a few times that memoir also works with the stack as a source zone.
Memoir is one of those mechanics that allows players to recognize that a part of the game that they didn't know existed actually exists (the stack). Premonition, which is another mechanic in your set, is a mechanic that allows players to do something extremely different that the rules wouldn't otherwise allow for at all (having face-up cards in libraries). Premonition, in my opinion, is therefore a step even further than memoir, and since there aren't really any problems with premonition, there shouldn't really be any with memoir, either.
Mechanical comprehension issues don't arise, either, since all it is that memoir does is mention that it also triggers from the stack. The mechanic itself alleviates the very comprehension issues that it presents -- if the worry is that players won't know about the stack and therefore won't understand it, then memoir will teach them that the stack exists and that objects can move from there to the graveyard.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Honestly, I didn't get the flavor until TurboJustice spelled it out, but now that I do it seems like triggering off discard makes flavor sense, so I don't like v1. Here is my stab at a nicer wording of v2:
Memoir v4 X(When this card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, you may pay X. If you do, copy it. Cards are put into the graveyard when they resolve.)
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