Nice talk. I'll throw in the my 2 cents about smash bros and tripping, and say the tripping was also added as a nerf to certain pro level tactics (dash dancing.) It was mostly introduced as a negative feedback mechanic ("hope" as you say) like rage is in a lot of fighting games, but rage has that narrative draw that tripping never had. It was a feel bad mechanic all around especially since both players knew it had nothing to do with the others skills or actions. It made the competitive aspect of it feel illegitimate, and not in a way that was hidden at all. Even as a party game, if it seems like you didn't in some way "earn" the win, it ruins the experience.
Good episode as always. I just wanted to say that I think the first trap you talk about and the lesson you learn from it can apply not only to game design but also to a lot of real life situation. When you see, hear, or have to deal with something that looks stupid to you, don't waste time saying it's stupid, but understand why it's the way it is. Maybe it's actually wrong, or maybe you are the one to be wrong, but if you don't understand it you'll never see.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I recently fell into the "stupid trap" in regards to Strive. I thought it was stupid because I didn't understand why it was worded the way it is, but now I do! I still think it's stupid, but now for only 4/5 reasons - the flavor sucks, it's unintuitive, inelegant, and poorly executed.
It's definitely cool. A lot of that info is super out of date though. We've gone back into closed beta for tons of redesign about a year ago. It's gotten so much more fun. =)
In an earlier podcast, when describing a game you where working on, you talked about two resources that you could manage, but you eventually decided to move to one. That's talking about the gold/faeria system isn't it?
EDIT: You even referred to it 'cryptically' as 'fairy wings' and 'gold'. Subtle .
I gotta say I was chuckling the whole time you guys were talking about Ruin. I haven't been able to get online a lot in the past couple of weeks (my computer broke and I've been slammed with work) and my blog posts on Cazia have, well, stalled. I'd come to exactly the same conclusion as Stairc on Ruin almost a year ago, but I wanted to present the design of Ruin as a mechanic before I presented the design of Ruin on cards. Duneblast (which has been in the design file in one form or another since day 1 of Ruin) in particular convinced me that Ruin worked better as an additional cost than as a weapon. Dark Sun was a setting I drew a lot of influences from, but I didn't want to explicitly reference it when discussing Cazia before I had established the story of Cazia.
Also Ruin creates Dunes not Deserts, as Desert is already a card:
Dune
Basic Land - Desert (B)
(T: Add 1 to your mana pool.)
Ruin also has an updated wording, based off commentary from Thought Criminal:
Ruin target land. (Remove that land from the game then that land's controller puts a Dune basic land card from outside the game onto the battlefield tapped under their control.)
Overall another great podcast, keep up the good work.
I gotta say I was chuckling the whole time you guys were talking about Ruin. I haven't been able to get online a lot in the past couple of weeks (my computer broke and I've been slammed with work) and my blog posts on Cazia have, well, stalled. I'd come to exactly the same conclusion as Stairc on Ruin almost a year ago, but I wanted to present the design of Ruin as a mechanic before I presented the design of Ruin on cards.
That's not the stance you took in your thread about it or in your blog so pardon me if this seems like backpedaling.
The blog is pretty explicit.
Why not represent the ability to slowly destroy by giving players the ability to destroy each other’s access to coloured mana?
Ruin a/target land (Exile that land and its controller puts a Dune basic land card from outside the game onto the battlefield tapped under their control.)
This is the current version of Ruin, representing the desert’s ability to sap strength and slowly erode the mana of your enemies.
Regardless, I'm glad to see that you prefer the direction of it being a cost and not really something directed at your opponents lands now.
IcariiFA I was intentionally coming down too strong in my support of Ruin, to foster discussion. Devil's advocate to myself as it were. Such communication only works in the anonymous forum of the internet and I'm disappointed in myself I couldn't find the time to develop both sides and guide the discussion. A single playtest of Ruin showed that Ruining your opponent's lands wasn't right. Duneblast and similar cards showed extremely quickly that there was far more interesting tension and strategic choice when Ruining your own lands, something which I've hinted at and I'm glad to see others come to the same conclusion. In much the same way that Doombringer is intentionally avoiding Netrunner strategy articles, I didn't want to bias anyone's thought process as regards Ruin.
Mainly because we try to keep overall criticism anonymous - especially when doing the Critique a Card segment. We were really hitting Ruin hard, and we didn't want it to sound like we were attacking a specific designer. Even if it doesn't bother you, being singled out like that for sharing an idea can scare off other people that might want to share their ideas in the community - and that's the last thing we'd want to happen.
This was another great episode. The designer traps discussion was very useful. I have needlessly made myself suffer over designs just because I was trying to do something different than had been done before and that's a large part of why I've worked on my set for so long without being able to finish it. (I've been working on it off and on since the GDS2 in 2010.) I feel like this "originality trap" is one of the more dangerous traps for CCC designers and one that I and others have fallen into a lot. It takes a lot of experience, humility, and wisdom on the part of a designer to admit that emulating previous mechanics and ideas is not only O. K., it's actually a very good thing to do.
The "this designer is a moron" trap is a good example of the "labeling" cognitive distortion from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy:
"Labelling is a cognitive distortion that involves making a judgement about yourself or someone else as a person, rather than seeing their behavior as something the person did that does not define them as an individual." Source
Just skimming the source article, it appears CBT and game design have a good bit of crossover.
I agree that a Dark Sun type world would be a good fit for Ruin. Maybe the first set in the block could feature lush lands and have Ruin spells and a later set in it could feature deserts and focus on desolation. To help solve the weird logistical issues of ruin, I suggest using double-faced cards, which would move a good bit of the complexity to the lands themselves:
Mountain Oasis
Basic Oasis Land- Mountain
/// Dune
Land- Desert T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
You could then modify the ruin mechanic as follows:
Dust Volley R
Instant (C) Drain- As an additional cost to cast ~, you may transform an oasis land you control.
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If you transformed an oasis as you cast ~, it deals 3 damage to that creature or player instead.
Here are couple of cards that play around with this design space some more:
Channel the Sands 3R
Instant (R) Drain- As an additional cost to cast ~, you may transform any number of oasis lands you control.
~ deals X damage to target creature or player, where X is 3 plus the number of oasis lands you transformed as you cast it.
Fertile Prarie
Oasis Land- Plains (R)
~ enters the battlefield tapped. 1W, transform ~ and any number of oasis lands you control: ~ deals X damage to target attacking or blocking creature, where X is the number of oasis lands you transformed as you activated this ability.
/// Dune
Land- Desert T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
I realize my suggestion probably has its own issues (parasitism being one of them), but I think it's a step in the right direction and I think it does an even better job of telling a "Dark Sun" story. (And yes, I remember that a Dark Sun narrative was Dan's suggestion, not your current design goal, Jaxck's.)
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In this episode:
Contact details:
Reuben Covington
Twitter: @reubencovington
Email: reubencovington@gmail.com
MTGsalvation Account: Doombringer
Dan Felder
Email: minimallyexceptional@gmail.com
MTGsalvation Account: Stairc
Card Renders
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
To answer my own question, I listened to the wrong episode (10). I'm a dork.
But hey, episode 10 was awesome!
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
http://www.faeria.net/
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
EDIT: This looks really cool. Here's hoping it's very successful because it probably deserves it.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
EDIT: You even referred to it 'cryptically' as 'fairy wings' and 'gold'. Subtle .
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Also Ruin creates Dunes not Deserts, as Desert is already a card:
Dune
Basic Land - Desert (B)
(T: Add 1 to your mana pool.)
Ruin also has an updated wording, based off commentary from Thought Criminal:
Ruin target land. (Remove that land from the game then that land's controller puts a Dune basic land card from outside the game onto the battlefield tapped under their control.)
Overall another great podcast, keep up the good work.
PS: Why did you explicitly avoid saying my name?
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
That's not the stance you took in your thread about it or in your blog so pardon me if this seems like backpedaling.
The blog is pretty explicit.
Regardless, I'm glad to see that you prefer the direction of it being a cost and not really something directed at your opponents lands now.
EDIT: Here's a link to my post Revisiting Ruin
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
Mainly because we try to keep overall criticism anonymous - especially when doing the Critique a Card segment. We were really hitting Ruin hard, and we didn't want it to sound like we were attacking a specific designer. Even if it doesn't bother you, being singled out like that for sharing an idea can scare off other people that might want to share their ideas in the community - and that's the last thing we'd want to happen.
Remaking Magic - A Podcast for those that love MTG and Game Design
The Dungeon Master's Guide - A Podcast for those that love RPGs and Game Design
Sig-Heroes of the Plane
The "this designer is a moron" trap is a good example of the "labeling" cognitive distortion from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy:
"Labelling is a cognitive distortion that involves making a judgement about yourself or someone else as a person, rather than seeing their behavior as something the person did that does not define them as an individual." Source
Just skimming the source article, it appears CBT and game design have a good bit of crossover.
I agree that a Dark Sun type world would be a good fit for Ruin. Maybe the first set in the block could feature lush lands and have Ruin spells and a later set in it could feature deserts and focus on desolation. To help solve the weird logistical issues of ruin, I suggest using double-faced cards, which would move a good bit of the complexity to the lands themselves:
Mountain Oasis
Basic Oasis Land- Mountain
///
Dune
Land- Desert
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
You could then modify the ruin mechanic as follows:
Dust Volley
R
Instant (C)
Drain- As an additional cost to cast ~, you may transform an oasis land you control.
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player. If you transformed an oasis as you cast ~, it deals 3 damage to that creature or player instead.
Here are couple of cards that play around with this design space some more:
Channel the Sands
3R
Instant (R)
Drain- As an additional cost to cast ~, you may transform any number of oasis lands you control.
~ deals X damage to target creature or player, where X is 3 plus the number of oasis lands you transformed as you cast it.
Fertile Prarie
Oasis Land- Plains (R)
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
1W, transform ~ and any number of oasis lands you control: ~ deals X damage to target attacking or blocking creature, where X is the number of oasis lands you transformed as you activated this ability.
///
Dune
Land- Desert
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
I realize my suggestion probably has its own issues (parasitism being one of them), but I think it's a step in the right direction and I think it does an even better job of telling a "Dark Sun" story. (And yes, I remember that a Dark Sun narrative was Dan's suggestion, not your current design goal, Jaxck's.)