I think that as long as the inclusion of mythics won't overwhelm and dominate the list and/or warp and misrepresent the curve, then they should be included.
Definitely include mythics. This is a Modern list, not a budget list.
Also you are missing a Gatecrash rare (can't think of the name) that was 2W 3/3 all upside (Battalion ability and an anti-Sphinx's Revelation activated ability).
Also you are missing a Gatecrash rare (can't think of the name) that was 2W 3/3 all upside (Battalion ability and an anti-Sphinx's Revelation activated ability).
I guess you're thinking of Frontline Medic. In my list, it's already included.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Understood, and agreed. Mythics are part of the game too, and help define what's possible for power and toughness at any given mana cost. It shouldn't be weird for there to be a handful of them on the master list.
And thanks for pointing out Frontline Medic.
Frontline Medic (3/3+ for 2W) replaces Abzan Falconer (2/3+) and Veteran Swordsmith (3/2+). This further pushes white's acceptable confines in the weenie (1 to 3 mana) range. Also note, Frontline Medic makes it so that Transcendent Master (3/3+ for 1WW) isn't required on the master list. Indomitable Archangel fills a hole in white's confines. Ojutai Exemplars is also a 4/4+ for 2WW but as they're both mythics, I'll list the one that doesn't require additional cards and mana to get a bonus (the Angel has built-in flying). Baneslayer Angel (5/5+ for 3WW) fills a hole which expands the right hand side (the higher-powered side) of white's confines. I'll have to redraw the graphics and attach an updated version. Sun Titan (6/6+ for 4WW) further exasperates the above. I think I can see why it has been so popular in some formats recently... there isn't anything else like it available for white! Torrent Elemental (3/5+ for 4U) fills a hole in blue's confines, and obsoletes Belltower Sphinx (2/5+ for 4U) and Prognostic Sphinx (3/5+ for 3UU). Grave Titan (6/6+ for 4BB) obsoletes everything else at that mana cost: Minotaur Abomination (4/6), Harvester of Souls (5/5+), and Corrupted Harvester (6/3+). Thundermaw Hellkite (5/5+ for 3RR) makes Stoneshock Giant (5/4+) unnecessary. Inferno Titan (6/6+ for 4RR) improves on Chaos Imps's 6/5+.
Awesome! I love getting corrections made. Hopefully there are more we're still missing.
But for now, I'll update the master list in the OP, and work up a new confines analysis for white.
EDIT: I've attached an updated version of the master list, for the OP.
EDIT next day: New spoilers from the Rumor Mill (the entire set has been revealed by Wizards). Sidisi’s Faithful is a 0/4+ for U, knocking Kraken Hatchling off the master list (even has a better creature type, not that we care for this purpose). Blood-Chin Rager or Kolaghan Skirmisher will probably replace Battle Brawler on my list. Both needs adding to anyone's list that keeps track of ties. Marsh Hulk would have made the list a couple days ago, but now that I'm including mythics (like Grave Titan) it isn't needed. Qarsi Sadist is another to add to lists that record ties. Rakshasa Gravecaller (3/6+ for 4B) makes the 3/5+ Fendeep Summoner go away. Ukud Cobra (2/5+) displaces Rotted Hulk (2/5) from the 3B spot. Atarka Pummeler (4/5+) joins Scoria Elemental in defining what 4R creatures can be. Dragonlord’s Servant and Blood-Chin Fanatic have already been added. Hardened Berserker (3/2+) has a decided edge over Goblin Roughrider (3/2) at 2R. Colossodon Yearling (2/4 for 2G) fills a hole in green's data. Like most additions and replacements coming from Dragon's of Tarkir, its printing was all but predicted by the master list. I take that to mean we're on the right track. Segmented Krotiq (6/5+ for 4G) also fits right in. Keeper of the Lens (1/2+ for 1) blows anything previously printed for that cost out of the water, sending Chronomaton (1/1+ for 1) and Hovermyr (1/2+ for 2) to obscurity.
Green, red, and black saw the most expansion of their confines with this set. A lot of it was holes being filled in, and much of it was predicted by precedent. That said, I have a lot of edits to make for the OP, which will happen today. I'll also post some new analysis on the color confines
The full spoiler for DTK came out today. I just looked through it for cards that changed the list, and I found quite many. Each of the cards from DTK that entered the list is reported below, and each of them has an indication with the following meaning:
• "new" means that the card covers a new combination of mana cost and power that had no cards before.
• "in addition" means that the card equals the current best combination of mana cost and P/T, so it has been added in the appropriate line in addition to the cards already there.
• "knocks out [CARDS]" means that the card has a higher toughness than the current best combination of mana cost and P/T, so it enters the list knocking all other cards with that mana cost and power out of the list. The cards that are no longer part of the list because of that DTK card are listed.
My list in post #15 has already been corrected. Now it is the DTK edition of the list.
The following are all the cards added to my list from DTK:
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I'd love to see a version of the list for each rarity, especially common. Definitely think it would show off the design mentality of each color at common far more than this currently does.
Anyway keep up the good work!
I'd love to see a version of the list for each rarity, especially common. Definitely think it would show off the design mentality of each color at common far more than this currently does.
Anyway keep up the good work!
Very good idea. I'll surely work on this.
EDIT - It's much quicker than the complete list, as there are a lot less cards. The method is the same, as are the other limitations (Modern legal, cmc max 6, without drawbacks, max triple colored in mana cost). A double star (**) identifies where the common list differs from the complete list.
EDIT 3/15: I've done gold and hybrid too for completeness, but there are definitely too few common cards to have a good sample in both those categories.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Absolutely! All kinds of variations have the potential to be quite useful, and splitting the list out by rarity is a good one. Each time I run more analysis on the list, I get something I can use in some way, and I'm sure other people would be able to benefit from a lot of it as well.
What I'm hoping/planning to do, is continue to work on the list (it's getting pretty close to accurate now I think), and also the analysis, here in the thread. I'll keep the OP updated with as much content as I can. I welcome others to join us in either doing analysis or suggesting improvements on other peoples' stuff. At some point, I'll start a fresh thread, re-write a lot of the OP, and I think that thread will be useful for people to bookmark and come back to. For now, I consider this a working draft, but what we've already got is pretty sweet.
My latest analysis is a more in-depth look at green. Until now I hadn't looked above 6cc, and didn't look at any costs involving more than 2 coloured mana (GG). Once I opened up the search to include that, the following creatures were incorporated into the data: Leatherback Baloth, Arbor Colossus, Terra Stomper, Kalonian Behemoth, and Ghoultree.
I then spaced out the mana costs so that each CMC (1, 2, 3, etc) got three full lines of text. The little notches down the left mark the separations between CMCs.
Observations...
- The right side of a colour's confines is by far the most important. This is the "topheavy" side, or the side that favours power. This appears to be the limiting factor in how powerful a creature can be. Toughness matters, I'm not at all saying it's insignificant. But I'm saying power matters most, and is the primary factor determining a creature's stats for a given mana cost. Power is what helps you get closer to winning the game, because power is what kills your opponent (and his creatures). Toughness helps your creatures stick around, so it certainly matters, but power (essentially the right side of the data) is the first consideration.
- Toughness can really vary in green. It's usually at-or-near the creature's power, and not very often much lower than power - except in weenies (like 3/1s). You're not very likely to see 8/2 creatures in green. But you'll see stuff like 2/8, 0/13, and so on. For the most part, toughness above 5 or 6 becomes less relevant, and by 8 or 9 it's almost completely pointless to keep going. Very few burn spells (even added together) can compete with ultra high toughness, and the same goes for creatures it meets in combat - they'll rarely be able to take it out when the toughness is hitting double digits.
- Leatherback Baloth, Arbor Colossus, Terra Stomper fit very nicely into the data we've already got. In the case of the Baloth, my "strong analysis" had previously predicted 4/4 at 1GG and 4/6 at 3G, so GGG naturally gives us a 4/5. The other 2 slid just as nicely into the numbers. I don't know how useful this is, though. The splashable costs (like 3G) and the more color-intensive costs (like 2GG) seem to provide enough of a "skeleton" that we can flesh out the numbers quite adequately. Maybe the 1GGG (and up) costs are worth checking into, but myself I'll probably only do that if there's a reason to.
- As for going above 6cc, I feel similarly. It's probably useful to look into, especially if you're not sure about some data and need more to go on, but the lower costs (up to 5 or so) provide most of the info required. In green's case, Terra Stomper, Kalonian Behemoth, and Ghoultree provide not really a proper skeleton, but more like a backbone. It's enough to go on. Clearly, green is allowed 8-power creatures for 6 mana, 9 power for 7 mana, and 10 power for 8 mana (all with extra bells and whistles). And those creatures, while attractive to Timmy, aren't tearing up the tournament scene, so there is probably some minor room for designs with higher power, but I wouldn't suggest pushing it too much further to the right. The trend is pretty clear.
- Green doesn't get super topheavy creatures at mana costs above 4 or 5. Toughness almost always matches power, or close to it. Green can have topheavy weenies like 3/1 and 5/2, but once power hits 6 and up, toughness tends to be in the same ballpark.
- I've put a strike through some of the stats, indicating instances where it has little impact on green's "identity" as a color, which is more represented by the line down the right side than anything else. There's nothing wrong with a 2/8 for 4G and I'm not saying Jaddi Lifestrider should come off the master list. But it doesn't set any precedent. It could be 2/3 or 2/9 and still really not matter. At 6 or 7 power, though, the chosen toughness would certainly matter a lot more to a creature costing 4G. (A 7/4 would be interesting.)
- This makes the 2/2 for G I suggested in my "strong analysis" even more obvious. I can't say I think it'll be printed, but I really do think that's the correct cost for a Grizzly Bears. Savannah Lions was in Alpha. 20 years of power creep has taken its toll!
- I wonder if a vanilla mythic creature is possible. I like to think that it is, if designed properly. With an epic mana cost (something that hasn't been done before and has some visual appeal), very high (and unique/interesting) stats that are still appropriate, and the right name/flavour/creature type(s), it's doable. I think mono-green is a good candidate.
And a card to finish up the post, which pretty much just came out of the above analysis. I'm sort of shocked it hasn't already been printed.
Coppice Hydra - XG
Creature - Hydra
Coppice Hydra enters the battlefield with X+1 +1/+1 counters on it.
0/0
As for the vanilla mythic creature, MaRo said on his blog a while ago that they had considered the idea.
I thought WUBRG for a very large creature was the only likely candidate, with it being at least 12/12. (8/8 was done - Fusion Elemental - as an uncommon intended only for Limited).
It could also be an unbalance multicoloured card - BRGG 7/7 or something like that - but that would probably be rare in a gold set or not printed in a non-gold set.
came out of the above analysis. I'm sort of shocked it hasn't already been printed.
Coppice Hydra - XG
Creature - Hydra
Coppice Hydra enters the battlefield with X+1 +1/+1 counters on it.
0/0
Slime Molding
It has, just not as a hydra (probably because it isn't super exciting for the iconic.)
R_E was suggesting +1/+1 over that, which would be a very good card in Limited but probably never see Constructed play. (Wurmcalling was played in Standard but the buyback on it mattered a lot).
came out of the above analysis. I'm sort of shocked it hasn't already been printed.
Coppice Hydra - XG
Creature - Hydra
Coppice Hydra enters the battlefield with X+1 +1/+1 counters on it.
0/0
Slime Molding
It has, just not as a hydra (probably because it isn't super exciting for the iconic.)
R_E was suggesting +1/+1 over that, which would be a very good card in Limited but probably never see Constructed play. (Wurmcalling was played in Standard but the buyback on it mattered a lot).
came out of the above analysis. I'm sort of shocked it hasn't already been printed.
Coppice Hydra - XG
Creature - Hydra
Coppice Hydra enters the battlefield with X+1 +1/+1 counters on it.
0/0
Slime Molding
It has, just not as a hydra (probably because it isn't super exciting for the iconic.)
R_E was suggesting +1/+1 over that, which would be a very good card in Limited but probably never see Constructed play. (Wurmcalling was played in Standard but the buyback on it mattered a lot).
That is a good point, and if you reliably make GG, Wildcall is considerably stronger than R_E's card due to the non-zero possibility of hitting a real creature.
Makes me think the following might be interesting. Note: This is seriously pushed; it's weaker than Tarmogoyf, but strong enough to possibly be the best combat creature in Standard at a given time.
Big Dumb Green Dude G
Creature - whatever
Multikicker G
~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each time it was kicked
2/2
I remember looking at Tattermunge Maniac and thinking 'wow, this is Green's best one drop ever'. My how things change - BDGD is legitimately printable, IMO.
@courageouscat - the WW 1/1's you listed aren't commons
The list is great btw. Thanks for it
You're right, somehow it escaped me. As you can imagine I did a copy and paste from the complete list and then corrected it vs Gatherer searches for only common cards. It must have been a leftover from the copy and paste. I'll correct it immediately (EDIT: done).
For some reason this made me laugh a lot.
But yes thanks for the common list, I'll go over it sometime soon, looking for any interesting trends etc.
Flatline already did variations on my username not so long ago in the DCC. I'm fine with it, at least it shows you understand what it means! (Unlike some people I know in real life who clearly don't know English well enough and pronounce it as it would be pronounced if it were an Italian word, and that annoys me. But there's no such danger on an English speaking site!)
I started today to prepare some data analysis of my own, based on the common list, because it's probably the best one in showing basic design tendencies. I've not found anything new yet, but I've found numeric confirms for a lot of facts we know empirically, and ways to visualize it in graphs. Also, as any good scientific analysis, it raises even more questions, so it will take some time to make it as complete as it can be. I'm not yet ready to post what I did so far, I think tomorrow I should be able to put it all together in a readable form and I'll show it here.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016 DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Thanks for the info on what MaRo and friends have said about mythic vanillas. I haven't read their stuff in years so I didn't know that. Well, if WUBRG is the only possible cost, fair enough. Maybe 1WUBRG or 5WUBRG, because like you said, Fusion Elemental is already a thing (as is Child of Alara, Maelstrom Archangel, Sliver Hivelord, Scion of the Ur-Dragon, etc). But I like to think that green is pretty good at vanilla creatures - and some of them are even playable! Maybe mono-green is doable too. Looking at some big green dudes to draft off of...
Ghoultree as it was printed is a completely unplayable in competitive decks, and is considered a failed design by my standards. I don't think the stats are too low - 10/10 is a perfectly reasonable power and toughness for something so massive (it is supposedly an animated treefolk army). The problem I think is that it costs too much. Sure, you can build a deck that purposely fills its own graveyard with creatures in the early game in order to get out a 10/10 for 2G (or so) that can be chump blocked. But could this 10/10 really have been printed for less than 8 mana? Given it's better-than-delve ability, the mana cost has to be nice and splashable, so I think to really make this creature playable-calibre, they would have to have cost it at 5G. Of course, any deck running it would have at least a few creatures in the graveyard by turn 3, but to be ultra conservative, any deck can have a creature or two there by turn 4. A reliable 10/10 on turn 4 (that's splashable) should be good enough to make some deck lists. Of course, there are no guarantees, but 5G is what I'd want Ghoultree to cost if it was to be spawning decks. As it stands, this rare Zombie from a set in fairly short supply is worth 50c on the secondary market. Maybe it's just really under-appreciated... but I think the reality is it's just over-costed.
5G should produce 10 power if we're talking anywhere-near-competitive-and-playable. I like 10 power for something different, it's only been used a few times thus far in Magic and will probably remain fairly unused. It's iconic and says "I can kill you with two beatings and no help from anyone else". A large mythic vanilla creature might have 10 power. But I don't think it would cost 5G. 6 mana does sound good, anything higher often precludes use in competitive decks, but how about something that's never been done? 1GGGGG is still 6 mana but it's far more interesting, and lets us go higher with toughness.
How about 20? No, just wait, hear me out. Green's confines stop it from going too topheavy in its fatties, so you won't see a 12/5 in green anytime soon. But it doesn't have any restrictions on being bottomheavy. 2/8, 1/5, hell even 0/13 sometimes. So why not go all the way to 20? Above 10 toughness there isn't much of a bonus anyway, is there? Aside from double-Grasp of Darkness or Shivan Meteor-type-stuff, going higher has more impact on the card's flavour than its playability. I think 10/20 is epic enough to go with the unique 1GGGGG cost yet not break established patterns. Assault Formation would be a fun interaction, but there are far better 2-card 8-mana combos.
Epicname - 1GGGGG
Creature - Notsure (M) Surely, there would be some ominous and creative flavour text here. Or, it would be a textless card with full length awe-inspiring artwork, a mythic set symbol, and two numbers:
10/20
Cloudthresher has a similar cost, though it's a bit easier to cast. It has a few nice upsides, but 3 less power. Terra Stomper is even more splashable while still being 6 mana, and at 8/8 with trample and uncounterable is still rarely considered worthwhile. For GGGGGG, Primalcrux is going to be at least 10/10 every time, and comes with trample. Khalni Hydra is 8/8+ and almost always costs far less than 8 mana. Maybe a better Hydra to compare to is Primordial Hydra, which for 5GG gives you a 10/10 trample starting next turn. Worldspine Wurm seems to be saying that 15 power with some upsides will cost you 11 mana. Kalonian Behemoth gives 9 power and some protection but isn't a competitive threat. If anything, a 10/20 without built-in protection or evasion is at risk of being too weak, considering other options already in print.
This seems to show that a 10-power creature at 1GGGGG is pushing the boundaries for green, indicating that it may be too powerful. But comparing it to similar cards already in print says it's pretty close to reasonable, and most of those cards see marginal play even in Casual decks. I still think it would get people thinking "how can I get this out on turn 3, and make sure it connects with my opponent turn 4 and 5?" I'd probably try it out myself.
Really big things are so often Wurms or Hydras, how about something else? Maybe some kind of Avatar, Mutant, Beast, or Elemental.
Serra Avatar was given anti-reanimation text for a very good reason, and likewise the 20/20 creature (Marit Lage) was made a token hidden behind a triggered ability for a reason (and Emrakul kept to 15 power). Cards like Sutured Ghoul or Erratic Explosion can do horrible things with printed number 20s, even if they are hidden in reasonably 'safe' places like mana costs.
I don't think there's any cards in print now that could abuse a 20 printed toughness, but making that creature may preclude such cards being designed in future.
With respect to Ghoultree - the Standard format at the time was incredibly hostile to the card. I believe the card would be playable today, but it was in Standard alongside Vapor Snag/Snapcaster for the first 8 months (as well as Thrun and one good pro-green Sword), then Terminus as well for the next 4 months, then Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Rest In Peace, Blasphemous Act, Boros Reckoner and Dreadbore after that. And Garruk, Primal Hunter blocked it all day while getting closer to ultimate, or Thundermaw Hellkite or Hellrider killed you when you tapped out to play the thing.
I'd be interested to see if it was played in today's Standard decks if it were legal. The hard answers to it are mostly 3-4 mana.
Ooooh. Call me a bad boy, but I like it even more now. Mythics sometimes break rules or do one-time things. "Comboing with some future design that can abuse 20 toughness" is another claim to fame
I think you're right about Ghoultree being better in today's Standard than in its own. Maybe 6G would have been the right cost for it, had it been intended as a powerful mythic that sees serious play. Nonetheless, I've just picked up a few playsets of it for next to nothing, in case I want to play with some or wait until green gets more toys for graveyard shenanigans, as it has been recently.
Here's another green design that came up while working on my "strong analysis". I figure 2GG could get you a 4/7 fairly safely, but I wanted a mid-range creature with the 2 things all creatures want, evasion and unsolvability. Mono-green has yet to get trample and hexproof together, but I don't see any reason to continue that tradition.
Neckflare Kavu strikes me as just a massively weaker Thrun, the Last Troll. Not to mention, Hexproof is a horrible mechanic that needs to die in a fire - it's non-interactive outside of playing sweepers or counterspells (either to counter the creature itself, or to prevent a combat trick saving it). Decks without counters and sweepers should have options to interact with hexproof creatures other than just 'block and hope they don't have the trick'.
I suggest if you want a trampling, unsolvable creature that you either reprint Vorapede or make a variant thereof. Imagine how good that card would have been if it were in Theros.
Back on Ghoultree - I stand by it being playable or at least worth testing in today's Standard as printed (at 7G) without needing the reduction to 6G. It's all about the removal it stacks up against, the sweepers, and the prevalence of grave hate.
Thrun's nice and unsolvable, but not great in the evasion department. I was going for both in one creature for 2GG.
I agree hexproof is overdone already. Giving the Kavu something else instead would be fine with me, as long as it makes it tougher to kill.
Re: Ghoultree maybe being playable in today's Stadard. That's neither here nor there, though. If it's in question whether or not it's playable in Standard, then it's probably not playable enough. It's kinda like saying "it might be Block playable". I'm aiming for a design that would make players take note, and consider adding it to a deck, or making a deck to take advantage of it. Not a creature that might be Block or Standard playable, if printed at the right time. If Ghoultree was seeing at least some Legacy play as well as quite solid Modern play, and it was in demand for Casual decks as well, then it would be a good benchmark. I don't know from personal experience how well it's doing on the tourny scene, but if the pricetag is any indication, nobody anywhere is playing it, period. Either it's an undiscovered gem that should be on every green decklist, or it's just not really good enough as printed. I think it's the latter...
Anyhow, do you really think Big Dumb Green Dude is possible? 2/2+ for G?
Sandwood Elk - G
Creature - Elk (U)
2/2
I was just going to go for something vanilla, heh.
Ghoultree is most certainly not viable in any of the competitive formats it is legal in now. In a deck with a bunch of creatures it's basically 3G, 10/10, not usually castable T4 - which is utterly unplayable in Modern and Legacy and would be even if it was 3G 10/10 vanilla.
I tend to do custom designs on the basis 'I want this to be good but safe in the present Standard and most forseeable Standard formats', however. I'm concerned that any upgrade on Ghoultree that dropped the mana cost would make it potentially absurd in a Standard format with cards like Satyr Wayfinder or Mulch and where removal is of a lower quality (e.g. today).
Your Sandwood Elk would be outclassed by the 'good' one-drops of recent years (Champion of the Parish, Delver, Monastery Swiftspear, etc) but would be good enough for Standard play in most environments. It would not be good enough in today's because 1 mana aggro dudes are so poorly positioned right now, but this is an unusual situation.
Cool. Well, I think Sandwood Elk is just about perfect, in that I wouldn't want to go to 2/3, nor can we go to 3/1, so 2/2 is the hard limit. That said, 2/2+ at rare might happen here or there, depending on what the + is. Your Big Dumb Green Dude's boost is pretty significant, ensuring he's always above the curve no matter how much mana you put into him.
To be honest, I think a lot of designers will have a problem with the Elk, let alone the Dude. Maybe I'll make a thread about it tomorrow, assuming there hasn't already been a good one on that topic recently.
I think that as long as the inclusion of mythics won't overwhelm and dominate the list and/or warp and misrepresent the curve, then they should be included.
Also you are missing a Gatecrash rare (can't think of the name) that was 2W 3/3 all upside (Battalion ability and an anti-Sphinx's Revelation activated ability).
Avant Block: Avant -- Stormfront
I guess you're thinking of Frontline Medic. In my list, it's already included.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
And thanks for pointing out Frontline Medic.
Frontline Medic (3/3+ for 2W) replaces Abzan Falconer (2/3+) and Veteran Swordsmith (3/2+). This further pushes white's acceptable confines in the weenie (1 to 3 mana) range. Also note, Frontline Medic makes it so that Transcendent Master (3/3+ for 1WW) isn't required on the master list.
Indomitable Archangel fills a hole in white's confines. Ojutai Exemplars is also a 4/4+ for 2WW but as they're both mythics, I'll list the one that doesn't require additional cards and mana to get a bonus (the Angel has built-in flying).
Baneslayer Angel (5/5+ for 3WW) fills a hole which expands the right hand side (the higher-powered side) of white's confines. I'll have to redraw the graphics and attach an updated version.
Sun Titan (6/6+ for 4WW) further exasperates the above. I think I can see why it has been so popular in some formats recently... there isn't anything else like it available for white!
Torrent Elemental (3/5+ for 4U) fills a hole in blue's confines, and obsoletes Belltower Sphinx (2/5+ for 4U) and Prognostic Sphinx (3/5+ for 3UU).
Grave Titan (6/6+ for 4BB) obsoletes everything else at that mana cost: Minotaur Abomination (4/6), Harvester of Souls (5/5+), and Corrupted Harvester (6/3+).
Thundermaw Hellkite (5/5+ for 3RR) makes Stoneshock Giant (5/4+) unnecessary.
Inferno Titan (6/6+ for 4RR) improves on Chaos Imps's 6/5+.
Awesome! I love getting corrections made. Hopefully there are more we're still missing.
But for now, I'll update the master list in the OP, and work up a new confines analysis for white.
EDIT: I've attached an updated version of the master list, for the OP.
EDIT next day: New spoilers from the Rumor Mill (the entire set has been revealed by Wizards).
Sidisi’s Faithful is a 0/4+ for U, knocking Kraken Hatchling off the master list (even has a better creature type, not that we care for this purpose).
Blood-Chin Rager or Kolaghan Skirmisher will probably replace Battle Brawler on my list. Both needs adding to anyone's list that keeps track of ties.
Marsh Hulk would have made the list a couple days ago, but now that I'm including mythics (like Grave Titan) it isn't needed.
Qarsi Sadist is another to add to lists that record ties.
Rakshasa Gravecaller (3/6+ for 4B) makes the 3/5+ Fendeep Summoner go away.
Ukud Cobra (2/5+) displaces Rotted Hulk (2/5) from the 3B spot.
Atarka Pummeler (4/5+) joins Scoria Elemental in defining what 4R creatures can be.
Dragonlord’s Servant and Blood-Chin Fanatic have already been added.
Hardened Berserker (3/2+) has a decided edge over Goblin Roughrider (3/2) at 2R.
Colossodon Yearling (2/4 for 2G) fills a hole in green's data. Like most additions and replacements coming from Dragon's of Tarkir, its printing was all but predicted by the master list. I take that to mean we're on the right track.
Segmented Krotiq (6/5+ for 4G) also fits right in.
Keeper of the Lens (1/2+ for 1) blows anything previously printed for that cost out of the water, sending Chronomaton (1/1+ for 1) and Hovermyr (1/2+ for 2) to obscurity.
Green, red, and black saw the most expansion of their confines with this set. A lot of it was holes being filled in, and much of it was predicted by precedent. That said, I have a lot of edits to make for the OP, which will happen today. I'll also post some new analysis on the color confines
.
• "new" means that the card covers a new combination of mana cost and power that had no cards before.
• "in addition" means that the card equals the current best combination of mana cost and P/T, so it has been added in the appropriate line in addition to the cards already there.
• "knocks out [CARDS]" means that the card has a higher toughness than the current best combination of mana cost and P/T, so it enters the list knocking all other cards with that mana cost and power out of the list. The cards that are no longer part of the list because of that DTK card are listed.
My list in post #15 has already been corrected. Now it is the DTK edition of the list.
The following are all the cards added to my list from DTK:
1 1/2 Keeper of the Lens (knocks out Chronomaton, Heap Doll, Hex Parasite, Jawbone Skulkin, Myr Mindservant, Myr Moonvessel, Myr Servitor, and Vector Asp)
4 3/3 Dragonloft Idol (in addition)
W 2/1 Dragon Hunter (in addition)
1W 1/3 Territorial Roc (in addition)
1W 2/2 Herald of Dromoka (in addition)
1W 3/1 Dromoka Warrior (in addition)
2W 2/3 Graceblade Artisan (in addition)
2WW 4/4 Ojutai Exemplars (in addition)
U 0/4 Sidisi's Faithful (in addition)
UUU 3/3 Shorecrasher Elemental (new)
1U 1/3 Elusive Spellfist (in addition)
1U 2/1 Stratus Dancer (in addition)
2U 1/4 Updraft Elemental (in addition)
2U 2/3 Silumgar Spell-Eater (in addition)
3U 2/4 Gurmag Drowner (in addition)
3U 3/3 Profaner of the Dead (in addition)
B 1/1 Shambling Goblin (in addition)
1B 1/3 Qarsi Sadist (in addition)
1B 2/2 Blood-Chin Rager, Kolaghan Skirmisher (in addition)
2B 2/3 Minister of Pain, Sibsig Icebreakers (in addition)
3B 1/6 Wandering Tombshell (knocks out Sidisi's Pet)
3B 2/5 Ukud Cobra (in addition)
4B 3/6 Rakshasa Gravecaller (knocks out Fendeep Summoner and Rotfeaster Maggot)
1BB 3/3 Blood-Chin Fanatic (knocks out Agent of the Fates)
4BB 4/6 Marsh Hulk (in addition)
RR 2/2 Dragon Whisperer (in addition)
1R 1/3 Dragonlord's Servant (knocks out Atog, Boggart Sprite-Chaser, Bomber Corps, Borderland Marauder, Ember-Fist Zubera, Goblin Archaeologist, Goblin Kaboomist, Kiln Fiend, Kobold Taskmaster, Rustrazor Butcher, Utvara Scalper, and Viashino Slasher)
1R 2/1 Ire Shaman, Kolaghan Aspirant (in addition)
2R 0/6 Crater Elemental (knocks out Bloodfire Mentor)
2R 2/3 Screamreach Brawler (in addition)
2R 3/2 Hardened Berserker (in addition)
3R 4/2 Sabertooth Outrider (in addition)
4R 4/5 Atarka Pummeler (knocks out Bonebreaker Giant, Fomori Nomad, Hungering Yeti, Night Revelers, and Towering Thunderfist)
1G 2/2 Atarka Beastbreaker (in addition)
2G 2/4 Colossodon Yearling (knocks out Advocate of the Beast, Cystbearer, Elder of Laurels, Ember Weaver, Llanowar Sentinel, Netcaster Spider, Oakheart Dryads, Sacellum Archers, Snapping Creeper, Trophy Hunter, Tuskguard Captain, and Villagers of Estwald)
5G 6/5 Segmented Krotiq (new)
GG 2/3 Scaleguard Sentinels (in addition)
1GG 3/3 Deathmist Raptor (in addition)
2GG 2/4 Circle of Elders (in addition)
3GG 5/5 Stampeding Elk Herd (in addition)
4WU 6/4 Pristine Skywise (new)
3UB 4/4 Necromaster Dragon (in addition)
4UB 4/4 Ruthless Deathfang (in addition)
3BR 5/4 Boltwing Marauder (knocks out Spawn of Rix Maadi)
4BR 4/4 Swift Warkite (new)
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Anyway keep up the good work!
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
Very good idea. I'll surely work on this.
EDIT - It's much quicker than the complete list, as there are a lot less cards. The method is the same, as are the other limitations (Modern legal, cmc max 6, without drawbacks, max triple colored in mana cost). A double star (**) identifies where the common list differs from the complete list.
EDIT 3/15: I've done gold and hybrid too for completeness, but there are definitely too few common cards to have a good sample in both those categories.
THE COMMON LIST
COLORLESS
0 0/2 Ornithopter
1 1/2 Keeper of the Lens
2 1/2 Hovermyr, Jhoira's Timebug, Omega Myr **
2 2/1 Alpha Myr, Bronze Sable, Fang Skulkin, Gust-Skimmer
3 1/4 Neurok Replica, Yotian Soldier
3 2/2 Auriok Replica, Elf Replica, Goblin Replica, Hoof Skulkin, Moriok Replica, Scuttlemutt, Sliver Construct, Snapsail Glider, Stonework Puma, Thermal Navigator, Trespassing Souleater, Wingrattle Scarecrow
3 3/1 Nim Replica, Spin Engine, Vulshok Replica
4 1/4 Hematite Golem, Myr Quadropod **
4 2/4 Bladed Sentinel, Watchwing Scarecrow
4 3/3 Dross Ripper
4 4/1 Rusted Slasher
4 5/1 Insatiable Souleater
5 3/4 Soliton **
5 4/2 Pewter Golem, Saberclaw Golem **
5 5/3 Tangle Hulk
6 2/4 Spire Golem **
6 3/4 Razor Golem **
6 4/4 Razorfield Rhino, Thornwatch Scarecrow, Will-Forged Golem **
6 5/4 Phyrexian Hulk **
MONOCOLOR
W 0/4 Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Yoked Ox
W 1/2 Sanctuary Cat
WW 2/3 Armored Warhorse, Veteran Armorsmith
WWW (none existing) **
1W 0/1 Kor Line-Slinger **
1W 1/3 Arashin Cleric, Concordia Pegasus, Jeskai Student, Kithkin Zealot, Leonin Den-Guard, Setessan Battle Priest, Starlight Invoker, Territorial Roc
1W 2/2 Benalish Cavalry, Boros Mastiff, Fledgling Griffin, Glory Seeker, Herald of Dromoka, Kami of Ancient Law, Keening Apparition, Kinsbaile Skirmisher, Kjeldoran Outrider, Knight of Cliffhaven, Knight of the Skyward Eye, Leonin Squire, Moorland Inquisitor, Order of the Golden Cricket, Oreskos Sun Guide, Ronom Unicorn, Safehold Sentry, Sentinel Sliver, Silverchase Fox, Silvercoat Lion, Stonewise Fortifier, Sunspear Shikari, Syndic of Tithes, Traveling Philosopher, Veteran Armorer, Whitemane Lion
1W 3/1 Blade of the Sixth Pride, Daring Skyjek, Dromoka Warrior, Oreskos Swiftclaw
2W 0/1 Kitsune Bonesetter **
2W 1/5 Loxodon Wayfarer
2W 2/3 Farbog Explorer, Harvestguard Alseids, Kor Sanctifiers, Mardu Hordechief, Midnight Guard
2W 3/2 Lagonna-Band Elder, Selesnya Sentry, Veteran Swordsmith **
3W 0/3 Dawnfluke
3W 1/4 Harsh Deceiver, Moonlit Strider, Stonehorn Dignitary **
3W 2/5 Armory Guard, Salt Road Patrol
3W 3/2 Assault Griffin, Champion of Arashin, Changeling Sentinel **
3W 4/2 Loxodon Convert
4W 0/4 Barrenton Medic
4W 1/6 Guardian Lions
4W 2/5 Ardent Militia, Ghost Tactician, Kami of Tattered Shoji, Spectral Gateguards, Totem-Guide Hartebeest
4W 3/5 Great-Horn Krushok, Nav Squad Commandos, Siege Mastodon, Thraben Purebloods
5W 2/5 Jedit's Dragoons
5W 3/6 Maze Sentinel, War Behemoth
5W 5/3 Lairwatch Giant **
1WW 1/2 D'Avenant Healer **
1WW 2/3 Chapel Geist, Sunspire Griffin
2WW 2/4 Seraph of Dawn **
2WW 3/3 Hillcomber Giant, Moorish Cavalry **
3WW 1/4 Griffin Dreamfinder
3WW 2/4 Dawnstrike Paladin, Supply-Line Cranes **
3WW 3/5 Silent Artisan
4WW 3/3 Conclave Equenaut, Silverstorm Samurai, Voice of the Provinces **
1WWW (none existing) **
2WWW (none existing) **
3WWW (none existing) **
U 0/4 Kraken Hatchling, Sidisi's Faithful
U 1/2 Triton Shorethief
UU 1/4 Plated Seastrider
UUU (none existing) **
1U 0/3 Halimar Wavewatch, Sigiled Starfish **
1U 1/3 Elusive Spellfist, Fathom Seer, Frilled Oculus, Halimar Excavator, Lumengrid Warden, Maritime Guard, Omenspeaker, Research Assistant, Seacoast Drake
1U 2/1 Coral Eel, Coral Merfolk, Coral Trickster, Crosstown Courier, Deeptread Merrow, Deepwater Hypnotist, Ink Dissolver, Jhessian Lookout, Merfolk Observer, Wetland Sambar
2U 0/1 Frontline Sage
2U 1/4 Galvanic Alchemist, Horned Turtle, River Kaijin, Updraft Elemental, Wavecrash Triton
2U 2/3 Aeronaut Tinkerer, Blind Phantasm, Crackling Triton, Jwari Scuttler, Nyxborn Triton, Sage's Row Denizen, Selhoff Occultist, Watercourser
3U 1/6 Fortress Crab
3U 2/4 Amphin Cutthroat, Azure Drake, Gurmag Drowner, Opal Lake Gatekeepers
3U 3/3 Giant Octopus
4U 1/4 Voidwielder **
4U 2/6 Thassa's Devourer
4U 3/3 Chasm Drake, Cloudheath Drake, Coastal Hornclaw, Drelnoch, Faerie Invaders, Frostwind Invoker, Merrow Wavebreakers, Nimbus of the Isles, Quillmane Baku, Rotcrown Ghoul, Shinen of Flight's Wings, Spire Monitor, Surrakar Banisher, Synchronous Sliver, Wanderguard Sentry **
4U 4/2 Whirlwind Adept **
5U 2/2 Vedalken Dismisser **
5U 3/5 Maze Glider
5U 4/5 Benthic Giant, Glacial Stalker
1UU 1/4 Calcite Snapper
1UU 2/3 Shaper Parasite, Streambed Aquitects
2UU 1/5 Dream Prowler
2UU 2/4 Ghost Ship **
2UU 3/2 Fencer Clique, Serum Raker **
3UU 2/2 Aven Surveyor, Sphinx's Disciple
3UU 3/4 Prescient Chimera **
4UU (none existing) **
1UUU (none existing)
2UUU (none existing) **
3UUU (none existing) **
3UUU (none existing) **
B 0/4 Disowned Ancestor
B 1/1 Asphodel Wanderer, Bile Urchin, Death Cultist, Deathgreeter, Disciple of the Vault, Drainpipe Vermin, Facevaulter, Festering Goblin, Festering Newt, Fume Spitter, Gnat Miser, Guul Draz Vampire, Maggot Carrier, Martyr of Bones, Merrow Bonegnawer, Mindlash Sliver, Pharika's Chosen, Plague Beetle, Prickly Boggart, Pulse Tracker, Quag Vampires, Rag Dealer, Ridged Kusite, Rimebound Dead, Shadow Alley Denizen, Shadow Guildmage, Shadowborn Apostle, Shambling Goblin, Smolder Initiate, Thoughtpicker Witch, Tormented Soul, Typhoid Rats, Viscera Seer, Zulaport Enforcer
BB 2/2 Wicked Akuba
BBB (none existing) **
1B 0/1 Deathknell Kami, Glaze Fiend, Swamp Mosquito
1B 1/3 Bane Alley Blackguard, Returned Reveler, Qarsi Sadist
1B 2/2 Gutter Skulk, Kolaghan Skirmisher, Walking Corpse
2B 1/4 Grim Guardian
2B 2/3 Dead Reveler, Felhide Minotaur, Sibsig Icebreakers, Undead Minotaur, Witch's Familiar
2B 3/2 Barony Vampire, Moriok Reaver, Warpath Ghoul
3B 0/1 Nim Shrieker
3B 1/6 Wandering Tombshell
3B 2/5 Rotted Hulk, Ukud Cobra
3B 3/3 Alesha's Vanguard, Unyielding Krumar, Viscera Dragger **
3B 4/2 Brain Gorgers, Giant Cockroach, Nether Horror, Smoldering Butcher
3B 5/1 Dross Crocodile, Rotting Fensnake
4B 1/2 Chimney Imp
4B 2/8 Rotting Mastodon
4B 3/5 Rotfeaster Maggot **
4B 4/3 Doomwake Giant, Shadowcloak Vampire, Stromkirk Patrol, Viscid Lemures, Zombie Goliath **
5B 2/2 Crawling Filth **
5B 3/4 Undead Leotau
5B 4/5 Maze Abomination
5B 5/3 Twisted Abomination
1BB 1/1 Cadaver Imp **
1BB 2/2 Blind Zealot, Chattering Rats, Dread Warlock, Faerie Macabre, Ghoulraiser, Severed Legion **
1BB 3/2 Soulcage Fiend **
2BB 0/4 Perilous Shadow
2BB 1/3 Disciple of Phenax
2BB 2/2 Cackling Imp, Crypt Ripper, Deathgaze Cockatrice, Highway Robber, Hornet Harasser **
2BB 3/1 Disciple of Tevesh Szat **
2BB 4/2 Cyclopean Giant **
3BB 2/4 Gorgon Recluse, Gray Merchant of Asphodel **
3BB 3/4 Street Wraith **
3BB 4/3 Bleak Coven Vampires **
3BB 5/3 Krumar Bond-Kin, Mass of Ghouls, Renegade Demon **
4BB 4/6 Marsh Hulk, Minotaur Abomination
1BBB (none existing) **
2BBB (none existing) **
3BBB (none existing) **
R 0/2 Flamekin Brawler
R 1/1 Akki Avalanchers, Akroan Crusader, Bellows Lizard, Boggart Forager, Duct Crawler, Firefright Mage, Forge Devil, Foundry Street Denizen, Frostling, Furnace Scamp, Goblin Arsonist, Goblin Balloon Brigade, Goblin Bushwhacker, Goblin Fireslinger, Goblin Gaveleer, Goblin Mountaineer, Intimidator Initiate, Karplusan Wolverine, Kolaghan Stormsinger, Krark-Clan Shaman, Martyr of Ashes, Mogg Fanatic, Mudbutton Clanger, Nyxborn Rollicker, Orcish Spy, Priest of Iroas, Raging Goblin, Rift Elemental, Satyr Hoplite, Skitter of Lizards, Somberwald Vigilante, Striking Sliver, Toxic Iguanar, War-Torch Goblin **
RR 3/1 Mardu Scout
RRR (none existing)
1R 0/1 Dragon Hatchling
1R 1/2 Boggart Sprite-Chaser, Bomber Corps, Borderland Marauder, Ember-Fist Zubera, Kiln Fiend, Rustrazor Butcher, Viashino Slasher **
1R 2/1 Adder-Staff Boggart, Akki Underling, Ashmouth Hound, Canyon Wildcat, Emberwilde Augur, Generator Servant, Goblin Piker, Goblin Shortcutter, Goblin Skycutter, Gore-House Chainwalker, Hearth Kami, Highland Berserker, Hinterland Hermit, Kolaghan Aspirant, Kruin Striker, Leaping Master, Oxidda Daredevil, Reckless Reveler, Satyr Rambler, Sigiled Skink, Skinbrand Goblin, Soulbright Flamekin, Sunflare Shaman, Tin Street Hooligan, Torch Fiend
2R 0/5 Bloodfire Mentor **
2R 1/3 Stinkdrinker Daredevil
2R 2/3 Kragma Butcher, Pensive Minotaur, Riot Devils, Screamreach Brawler, Warmind Infantry
2R 3/2 Goblin Roughrider, Hardened Berserker
2R 4/1 Gore Swine, Regathan Firecat
3R 0/4 Ogre Menial
3R 2/4 Smelt-Ward Gatekeepers
3R 3/3 Blade-Tribe Berserkers, Canyon Minotaur, Coal Stoker, Hill Giant, Ill-Tempered Cyclops, Lagac Lizard, Lowland Oaf, Mardu Warshrieker, Ohran Yeti, Rubblebelt Maaka, Russet Wolves, Scrapyard Mongrel, War-Spike Changeling **
3R 4/2 Needlepeak Spider, Sabertooth Outrider
3R 5/2 Cobblebrute
4R 2/3 Sokenzan Spellblade
4R 3/3 Barbarian Riftcutter, Emrakul's Hatcher, Grotag Thrasher, Ingot Chewer, Ogre Leadfoot, Pharagax Giant, Pitchburn Devils, Rock Badger, Sokenzan Bruiser **
4R 4/4 Bonebreaker Giant, Fomori Nomad, Night Revelers, Towering Thunderfist **
4R 5/2 Canyon Lurkers, Kranioceros
4R 6/1 Raging Poltergeist, Scoria Elemental
5R 3/5 Defiant Ogre
5R 4/4 Battering Sliver, Lunk Errant
5R 5/4 Gluttonous Cyclops, Tenement Crasher
5R 6/3 Maze Rusher
1RR 1/2 Two-Headed Cerberus **
1RR 2/3 Koth's Courier
1RR 3/2 Balduvian Barbarians, Crossway Vampire **
2RR 1/3 Sandstone Warrior
2RR 2/2 Heirs of Stromkirk **
2RR 3/3 Gorehorn Minotaurs, Viashino Fangtail **
2RR 4/3 Borderland Minotaur, Ogre Resister, Shatterskull Giant, Summit Prowler **
2RR 5/2 Cyclops of One-Eyed Pass
3RR 2/2 Soul of Magma
3RR 3/3 Gathan Raiders, Krark-Clan Ogre **
3RR 4/4 Flowstone Crusher **
3RR 5/4 Fire Elemental **
4RR 4/4 Coalhauler Swine **
4RR 5/4 Gnathosaur **
4RR 6/4 Axegrinder Giant, Flameborn Viron **
1RRR (none existing) **
2RRR (none existing) **
3RRR (none existing) **
G 0/3 Llanowar Augur
G 1/2 Ezuri's Archers, Norwood Ranger, Scattershot Archer
GG 1/3 Juvenile Gloomwidow
GG 2/3 Elvish Warrior, Nissa's Chosen
GG 3/2 Garruk's Companion, Swordwise Centaur **
GGG (none existing) **
1G 0/2 Devoted Druid, Whisperer of the Wilds
1G 1/3 Bosk Banneret, Canopy Spider
1G 2/2 Ashcoat Bear, Atarka Beastbreaker, Boreal Centaur, Carapace Forger, Cylian Elf, Darkthicket Wolf, Dawntreader Elk, Death-Hood Cobra, Disciple of the Old Ways, Drudge Beetle, Gnarlid Pack, Grizzly Bears, Humble Budoka, Kraul Warrior, Leafcrown Dryad, Nest Invader, Runeclaw Bear, Smoke Teller, Somberwald Dryad, Spinneret Sliver, Timberpack Wolf, Transluminant, Woodland Changeling
2G 1/5 Sporecap Spider
2G 2/4 Colossodon Yearling
2G 3/3 Centaur Courser, Nessian Courser
2G 4/2 Alpine Grizzly
3G 1/4 Joraga Bard **
3G 2/4 Blightwidow, Bog-Strider Ash, Giant Spider, Ondu Giant, Ravenous Leucrocota, Sakura-Tribe Springcaller, Saruli Gatekeepers, Scab-Clan Charger, Towering Indrik
3G 3/3 Ambassador Oak, Festerhide Boar, Greater Mossdog, Kavu Primarch, Kozilek's Predator, Longshot Squad, Mold Shambler, Pheres-Band Tromper, Primal Huntbeast, Simian Brawler, Simic Ragworm, Stalking Tiger, Thrashing Mossdog, Wildslayer Elves **
3G 4/3 Nettle Swine, Order of the Sacred Bell
3G 5/1 Conifer Strider **
4G 0/3 Bramble Creeper
4G 2/5 Sagu Archer **
4G 3/7 Pheres-Band Centaurs
4G 4/5 Nessian Asp **
4G 5/4 Feral Krushok, Spined Wurm
4G 6/2 Adaptive Snapjaw
5G 3/6 Foxfire Oak
5G 4/4 Aurochs Herd, Hooting Mandrills, Scaled Hulk **
5G 5/6 Vastwood Gorger
5G 6/5 Segmented Krotiq
1GG 1/1 Setessan Oathsworn **
1GG 2/3 Glissa's Courier, Golgari Brownscale **
1GG 3/3 Gnarled Mass, Trained Armodon
2GG 1/1 Stone-Seeder Hierophant
2GG 2/4 Penumbra Spider
2GG 3/4 Aerie Bowmasters, Cloudcrown Oak, Tangle Mantis **
2GG 4/4 Rumbling Baloth
3GG 2/4 Kashi-Tribe Warriors **
3GG 3/6 Moss Monster
3GG 4/4 Bramble Elemental, Charging Rhino, Fangren Hunter, Game-Trail Changeling, Sentinel Spider, Sporoloth Ancient **
3GG 5/5 Hollowhenge Beast, Stampeding Elk Herd
4GG 3/4 Tangle Spider
4GG 4/5 Carnivorous Moss-Beast **
4GG 5/5 Durkwood Baloth, Humbler of Mortals
4GG 6/5 Tusked Colossodon, Vulpine Goliath **
1GGG (none existing) **
2GGG (none existing) **
3GGG 6/6 Kindercatch
GOLD
WU 1/3 Ethercaste Knight
WU 2/2 Azorius First-Wing, Deputy of Acquittals, Vedalken Outlander
1WU 2/3 Talon Trooper
2WU 2/4 Hussar Patrol
2WU 3/3 Esper Cormorants
3WU 3/4 Glassdust Hulk
3WU (none existing) **
UB 1/3 Dimir Infiltrator
UB 2/2 Zombie Outlander
1UB 1/1 Mortus Strider **
2UB 3/3 Architects of Will
3UB 4/3 Etherium Abomination, Vectis Agent **
4UB 2/4 Jhessian Zombies
BR 2/2 Gobhobbler Rats, Goblin Outlander
BR 3/1 Goblin Deathraiders
1BR 1/1 Rakdos Ickspitter
1BR 2/2 Kathari Bomber **
2BR 3/2 Singe-Mind Ogre
3BR 5/3 Spawn of Rix Maadi
4BR 5/1 Igneous Pouncer **
RG 1/1 Scab-Clan Mauler, Zhur-Taa Druid
RG 2/2 Nacatl Outlander, Rip-Clan Crasher
1RG 2/2 Godtracker of Jund
2RG 2/2 Burning-Tree Bloodscale
2RG 4/4 Rhox Brute
3RG 3/4 Deadshot Minotaur
3RG 5/5 Gorger Wurm
3RG 6/4 Streetbreaker Wurm
4RG 6/3 Valley Rannet
4RG 7/6 Ruination Wurm
GW 1/5 Grizzled Leotau
GW 2/2 Qasali Pridemage, Steward of Valeron, Valeron Outlander
1GW 3/3 Centaur Healer
2GW 3/3 Leonin Armorguard
3GW 2/3 Rhox Bodyguard **
3GW 4/6 Armored Wolf-Rider
4GW 4/5 Pale Recluse
4GW 5/4 Sigiled Behemoth **
WB 2/1 Tithe Drinker **
1WB 0/2 Vectis Dominator
1WB 2/2 Kingpin's Pet
2WB 2/2 Blind Hunter
3WB (none existing) **
4WB (none existing) **
UR 2/2 Goblin Electromancer
1UR 1/3 Wee Dragonauts
2UR (none existing) **
3UR 2/2 Izzet Chronarch **
4UR (none existing)
BG 2/2 Putrid Leech
1BG 3/1 Shembling Shell **
2BG 2/2 Sluiceway Scorpion, Woodwraith Strangler
3BG 5/4 Golgari Rotwurm
4BG (none existing)
RW 2/2 Cerodon Yearling
RW 3/2 Wojek Halberdiers
1RW 2/2 Skyknight Legionnaire, Viashino Firstblade
2RW (none existing) **
3RW (none existing) **
4RW (none existing) **
GU 1/1 Coiling Oracle
GU 2/1 Shambleshark
1GU 1/1 Winged Coatl
1GU 2/2 Beetleform Mage **
1GU 3/1 Drakewing Krasis
2GU 3/3 Assault Zeppelid
3GU (none existing) **
4GU (none existing) **
HYBRID
(W/U) 1/1 Zealous Guardian
(W/U)(W/U) (none existing) **
(W/U)(W/U)(W/U) (none existing)
(W/U)(W/U)(W/U)(W/U) (none existing)
(W/U)(W/U)(W/U)(W/U)(W/U) (none existing) **
1(W/U) 2/1 Somnomancer
2(W/U) 1/3 Silkbind Faerie
2(W/U) 2/2 Thistledown Duo
3(W/U) (none existing)
4(W/U) (none existing) **
5(W/U) (none existing)
1(W/U)(W/U) 2/2 Vassal Soul
2(W/U)(W/U) 3/3 Barrenton Cragtreads
2(W/U)(W/U) (none existing) **
3(W/U)(W/U) (none existing) **
4(W/U)(W/U) (none existing)
1(W/U)(W/U)(W/U) (none existing) **
2(W/U)(W/U)(W/U) (none existing)
3(W/U)(W/U)(W/U) (none existing)
(U/B) (none existing)
(U/B)(U/B) (none existing) **
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) (none existing) **
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) (none existing)
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) (none existing) **
1(U/B) 1/2 Lurking Informant
2(U/B) 2/1 Gravelgill Duo
3(U/B) (none existing) **
4(U/B) 3/3 Gravelgill Axeshark
5(U/B) (none existing)
1(U/B)(U/B) 2/2 Deathcult Rogue
2(U/B)(U/B) 3/3 Wanderbrine Rootcutters
3(U/B)(U/B) (none existing)
4(U/B)(U/B) (none existing)
1(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) (none existing) **
2(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) (none existing)
3(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) (none existing)
(B/R) 1/1 Manaforge Cinder
(B/R)(B/R) 2/1 Rakdos Shred-Freak **
(B/R)(B/R)(B/R) (none existing)
(B/R)(B/R)(B/R)(B/R) (none existing)
(B/R)(B/R)(B/R)(B/R)(B/R) (none existing) **
1(B/R) 1/1 Emberstrike Duo, Sootstoke Kindler
2(B/R) (none existing)
3(B/R) (none existing)
4(B/R) 3/3 Cultbrand Cinder
5(B/R) (none existing)
1(B/R)(B/R) (none existing) **
2(B/R)(B/R) (none existing) **
2(B/R)(B/R) 3/3 Sootwalkers
3(B/R)(B/R) (none existing) **
4(B/R)(B/R) (none existing)
1(B/R)(B/R)(B/R) (none existing) **
2(B/R)(B/R)(B/R) (none existing)
3(B/R)(B/R)(B/R) (none existing)
(R/G) 1/1 Scuzzback Scrapper, Wild Cantor
(R/G)(R/G) (none existing) **
(R/G)(R/G)(R/G) (none existing) **
(R/G)(R/G)(R/G)(R/G) (none existing)
(R/G)(R/G)(R/G)(R/G)(R/G) (none existing) **
1(R/G) (none existing)
2(R/G) 2/3 Tattermunge Duo
3(R/G) (none existing)
4(R/G) 5/2 Scuzzback Marauders
5(R/G) (none existing) **
1(R/G)(R/G) (none existing)
2(R/G)(R/G) 3/3 Mudbrawler Raiders
2(R/G)(R/G) (none existing) **
3(R/G)(R/G) (none existing)
4(R/G)(R/G) (none existing)
1(R/G)(R/G)(R/G) (none existing) **
2(R/G)(R/G)(R/G) (none existing)
3(R/G)(R/G)(R/G) (none existing)
(G/W) 1/1 Elvish Hexhunter
(G/W)(G/W) (none existing) **
(G/W)(G/W)(G/W) (none existing) **
(G/W)(G/W)(G/W)(G/W) (none existing)
(G/W)(G/W)(G/W)(G/W)(G/W) (none existing) **
1(G/W) 2/2 Safehold Elite
2(G/W) 3/1 Centaur Safeguard
3(G/W) 2/4 Safehold Duo
4(G/W) (none existing)
5(G/W) (none existing)
1(G/W)(G/W) (none existing) **
2(G/W)(G/W) (none existing) **
2(G/W)(G/W) 3/3 Raven's Run Dragoon
3(G/W)(G/W) 3/6 Old Ghastbark
4(G/W)(G/W) (none existing)
1(G/W)(G/W)(G/W) (none existing) **
2(G/W)(G/W)(G/W) (none existing)
3(G/W)(G/W)(G/W) (none existing)
(W/B) 1/1 Nip Gwyllion
(W/B)(W/B) (none existing) **
(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) (none existing) **
(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) (none existing)
(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) (none existing) **
1(W/B) 1/1 Mourning Thrull
1(W/B) 2/1 Nightsky Mimic
2(W/B) (none existing) **
3(W/B) (none existing)
4(W/B) (none existing)
5(W/B) (none existing)
1(W/B)(W/B) (none existing) **
2(W/B)(W/B) 2/4 Harvest Gwyllion
3(W/B)(W/B) (none existing) **
4(W/B)(W/B) (none existing)
1(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) (none existing)
2(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) (none existing) **
3(W/B)(W/B)(W/B) (none existing)
(U/R) 1/1 Stream Hopper **
(U/R)(U/R) 1/4 Frostburn Weird
(U/R)(U/R)(U/R) (none existing) **
(U/R)(U/R)(U/R)(U/R) (none existing)
(U/R)(U/R)(U/R)(U/R)(U/R) (none existing) **
1(U/R) 2/1 Riverfall Mimic
2(U/R) (none existing) **
3(U/R) (none existing)
4(U/R) (none existing)
5(U/R) (none existing)
1(U/R)(U/R) (none existing) **
2(U/R)(U/R) (none existing)
3(U/R)(U/R) (none existing)
4(U/R)(U/R) (none existing) **
1(U/R)(U/R)(U/R) (none existing)
2(U/R)(U/R)(U/R) (none existing)
3(U/R)(U/R)(U/R) (none existing) **
(B/G) 1/1 Odious Trow **
(B/G)(B/G) (none existing) **
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) (none existing) **
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) (none existing)
(B/G)(B/G)(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) (none existing)
1(B/G) 2/1 Woodlurker Mimic
2(B/G) 2/2 Rendclaw Trow
3(B/G) (none existing)
4(B/G) (none existing)
5(B/G) (none existing)
1(B/G)(B/G) (none existing)
2(B/G)(B/G) 2/2 Desecrator Hag
3(B/G)(B/G) 5/4 Golgari Longlegs
4(B/G)(B/G) (none existing)
1(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) (none existing) **
2(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) (none existing)
3(B/G)(B/G)(B/G) (none existing) **
(R/W) 1/1 Boros Recruit, Duergar Assailant
(R/W)(R/W) (none existing) **
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) (none existing) **
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) (none existing)
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) (none existing) **
1(R/W) 2/1 Battlegate Mimic
2(R/W) 1/2 Hobgoblin Dragoon
2(R/W) (none existing) **
3(R/W) (none existing)
4(R/W) (none existing)
5(R/W) (none existing)
1(R/W)(R/W) (none existing)
2(R/W)(R/W) (none existing) **
3(R/W)(R/W) (none existing)
4(R/W)(R/W) (none existing)
1(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) (none existing)
2(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) (none existing) **
3(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) (none existing)
(G/U) 1/1 Slippery Bogle
(G/U)(G/U) (none existing) **
(G/U)(G/U)(G/U) (none existing) **
(G/U)(G/U)(G/U)(G/U) (none existing)
(G/U)(G/U)(G/U)(G/U)(G/U) (none existing)
1(G/U) 2/1 Shorecrasher Mimic
2(G/U) (none existing) **
3(G/U) 2/3 Grazing Kelpie
4(G/U) (none existing)
5(G/U) (none existing)
1(G/U)(G/U) (none existing) **
2(G/U)(G/U) (none existing)
3(G/U)(G/U) (none existing)
4(G/U)(G/U) 3/3 Trapjaw Kelpie
4(G/U)(G/U) (none existing) **
1(G/U)(G/U)(G/U) (none existing)
2(G/U)(G/U)(G/U) (none existing) **
3(G/U)(G/U)(G/U) (none existing)
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
What I'm hoping/planning to do, is continue to work on the list (it's getting pretty close to accurate now I think), and also the analysis, here in the thread. I'll keep the OP updated with as much content as I can. I welcome others to join us in either doing analysis or suggesting improvements on other peoples' stuff. At some point, I'll start a fresh thread, re-write a lot of the OP, and I think that thread will be useful for people to bookmark and come back to. For now, I consider this a working draft, but what we've already got is pretty sweet.
My latest analysis is a more in-depth look at green. Until now I hadn't looked above 6cc, and didn't look at any costs involving more than 2 coloured mana (GG). Once I opened up the search to include that, the following creatures were incorporated into the data: Leatherback Baloth, Arbor Colossus, Terra Stomper, Kalonian Behemoth, and Ghoultree.
I then spaced out the mana costs so that each CMC (1, 2, 3, etc) got three full lines of text. The little notches down the left mark the separations between CMCs.
Observations...
- The right side of a colour's confines is by far the most important. This is the "topheavy" side, or the side that favours power. This appears to be the limiting factor in how powerful a creature can be. Toughness matters, I'm not at all saying it's insignificant. But I'm saying power matters most, and is the primary factor determining a creature's stats for a given mana cost. Power is what helps you get closer to winning the game, because power is what kills your opponent (and his creatures). Toughness helps your creatures stick around, so it certainly matters, but power (essentially the right side of the data) is the first consideration.
- Toughness can really vary in green. It's usually at-or-near the creature's power, and not very often much lower than power - except in weenies (like 3/1s). You're not very likely to see 8/2 creatures in green. But you'll see stuff like 2/8, 0/13, and so on. For the most part, toughness above 5 or 6 becomes less relevant, and by 8 or 9 it's almost completely pointless to keep going. Very few burn spells (even added together) can compete with ultra high toughness, and the same goes for creatures it meets in combat - they'll rarely be able to take it out when the toughness is hitting double digits.
- Leatherback Baloth, Arbor Colossus, Terra Stomper fit very nicely into the data we've already got. In the case of the Baloth, my "strong analysis" had previously predicted 4/4 at 1GG and 4/6 at 3G, so GGG naturally gives us a 4/5. The other 2 slid just as nicely into the numbers. I don't know how useful this is, though. The splashable costs (like 3G) and the more color-intensive costs (like 2GG) seem to provide enough of a "skeleton" that we can flesh out the numbers quite adequately. Maybe the 1GGG (and up) costs are worth checking into, but myself I'll probably only do that if there's a reason to.
- As for going above 6cc, I feel similarly. It's probably useful to look into, especially if you're not sure about some data and need more to go on, but the lower costs (up to 5 or so) provide most of the info required. In green's case, Terra Stomper, Kalonian Behemoth, and Ghoultree provide not really a proper skeleton, but more like a backbone. It's enough to go on. Clearly, green is allowed 8-power creatures for 6 mana, 9 power for 7 mana, and 10 power for 8 mana (all with extra bells and whistles). And those creatures, while attractive to Timmy, aren't tearing up the tournament scene, so there is probably some minor room for designs with higher power, but I wouldn't suggest pushing it too much further to the right. The trend is pretty clear.
- Green doesn't get super topheavy creatures at mana costs above 4 or 5. Toughness almost always matches power, or close to it. Green can have topheavy weenies like 3/1 and 5/2, but once power hits 6 and up, toughness tends to be in the same ballpark.
- I've put a strike through some of the stats, indicating instances where it has little impact on green's "identity" as a color, which is more represented by the line down the right side than anything else. There's nothing wrong with a 2/8 for 4G and I'm not saying Jaddi Lifestrider should come off the master list. But it doesn't set any precedent. It could be 2/3 or 2/9 and still really not matter. At 6 or 7 power, though, the chosen toughness would certainly matter a lot more to a creature costing 4G. (A 7/4 would be interesting.)
- This makes the 2/2 for G I suggested in my "strong analysis" even more obvious. I can't say I think it'll be printed, but I really do think that's the correct cost for a Grizzly Bears. Savannah Lions was in Alpha. 20 years of power creep has taken its toll!
- I wonder if a vanilla mythic creature is possible. I like to think that it is, if designed properly. With an epic mana cost (something that hasn't been done before and has some visual appeal), very high (and unique/interesting) stats that are still appropriate, and the right name/flavour/creature type(s), it's doable. I think mono-green is a good candidate.
And a card to finish up the post, which pretty much just came out of the above analysis. I'm sort of shocked it hasn't already been printed.
Coppice Hydra - XG
Creature - Hydra
Coppice Hydra enters the battlefield with X+1 +1/+1 counters on it.
0/0
.
I thought WUBRG for a very large creature was the only likely candidate, with it being at least 12/12. (8/8 was done - Fusion Elemental - as an uncommon intended only for Limited).
It could also be an unbalance multicoloured card - BRGG 7/7 or something like that - but that would probably be rare in a gold set or not printed in a non-gold set.
Slime Molding
It has, just not as a hydra (probably because it isn't super exciting for the iconic.)
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
R_E was suggesting +1/+1 over that, which would be a very good card in Limited but probably never see Constructed play. (Wurmcalling was played in Standard but the buyback on it mattered a lot).
Ahhh true.
Well Wildcall exists.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
The list is great btw. Thanks for it
For some reason this made me laugh a lot.
But yes thanks for the common list, I'll go over it sometime soon, looking for any interesting trends etc.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
That is a good point, and if you reliably make GG, Wildcall is considerably stronger than R_E's card due to the non-zero possibility of hitting a real creature.
Makes me think the following might be interesting. Note: This is seriously pushed; it's weaker than Tarmogoyf, but strong enough to possibly be the best combat creature in Standard at a given time.
Big Dumb Green Dude G
Creature - whatever
Multikicker G
~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each time it was kicked
2/2
I remember looking at Tattermunge Maniac and thinking 'wow, this is Green's best one drop ever'. My how things change - BDGD is legitimately printable, IMO.
You're right, somehow it escaped me. As you can imagine I did a copy and paste from the complete list and then corrected it vs Gatherer searches for only common cards. It must have been a leftover from the copy and paste. I'll correct it immediately (EDIT: done).
Flatline already did variations on my username not so long ago in the DCC. I'm fine with it, at least it shows you understand what it means! (Unlike some people I know in real life who clearly don't know English well enough and pronounce it as it would be pronounced if it were an Italian word, and that annoys me. But there's no such danger on an English speaking site!)
I started today to prepare some data analysis of my own, based on the common list, because it's probably the best one in showing basic design tendencies. I've not found anything new yet, but I've found numeric confirms for a lot of facts we know empirically, and ways to visualize it in graphs. Also, as any good scientific analysis, it raises even more questions, so it will take some time to make it as complete as it can be. I'm not yet ready to post what I did so far, I think tomorrow I should be able to put it all together in a readable form and I'll show it here.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Ghoultree as it was printed is a completely unplayable in competitive decks, and is considered a failed design by my standards. I don't think the stats are too low - 10/10 is a perfectly reasonable power and toughness for something so massive (it is supposedly an animated treefolk army). The problem I think is that it costs too much. Sure, you can build a deck that purposely fills its own graveyard with creatures in the early game in order to get out a 10/10 for 2G (or so) that can be chump blocked. But could this 10/10 really have been printed for less than 8 mana? Given it's better-than-delve ability, the mana cost has to be nice and splashable, so I think to really make this creature playable-calibre, they would have to have cost it at 5G. Of course, any deck running it would have at least a few creatures in the graveyard by turn 3, but to be ultra conservative, any deck can have a creature or two there by turn 4. A reliable 10/10 on turn 4 (that's splashable) should be good enough to make some deck lists. Of course, there are no guarantees, but 5G is what I'd want Ghoultree to cost if it was to be spawning decks. As it stands, this rare Zombie from a set in fairly short supply is worth 50c on the secondary market. Maybe it's just really under-appreciated... but I think the reality is it's just over-costed.
5G should produce 10 power if we're talking anywhere-near-competitive-and-playable. I like 10 power for something different, it's only been used a few times thus far in Magic and will probably remain fairly unused. It's iconic and says "I can kill you with two beatings and no help from anyone else". A large mythic vanilla creature might have 10 power. But I don't think it would cost 5G. 6 mana does sound good, anything higher often precludes use in competitive decks, but how about something that's never been done? 1GGGGG is still 6 mana but it's far more interesting, and lets us go higher with toughness.
How about 20? No, just wait, hear me out. Green's confines stop it from going too topheavy in its fatties, so you won't see a 12/5 in green anytime soon. But it doesn't have any restrictions on being bottomheavy. 2/8, 1/5, hell even 0/13 sometimes. So why not go all the way to 20? Above 10 toughness there isn't much of a bonus anyway, is there? Aside from double-Grasp of Darkness or Shivan Meteor-type-stuff, going higher has more impact on the card's flavour than its playability. I think 10/20 is epic enough to go with the unique 1GGGGG cost yet not break established patterns. Assault Formation would be a fun interaction, but there are far better 2-card 8-mana combos.
Epicname - 1GGGGG
Creature - Notsure (M)
Surely, there would be some ominous and creative flavour text here. Or, it would be a textless card with full length awe-inspiring artwork, a mythic set symbol, and two numbers:
10/20
Cloudthresher has a similar cost, though it's a bit easier to cast. It has a few nice upsides, but 3 less power. Terra Stomper is even more splashable while still being 6 mana, and at 8/8 with trample and uncounterable is still rarely considered worthwhile. For GGGGGG, Primalcrux is going to be at least 10/10 every time, and comes with trample. Khalni Hydra is 8/8+ and almost always costs far less than 8 mana. Maybe a better Hydra to compare to is Primordial Hydra, which for 5GG gives you a 10/10 trample starting next turn. Worldspine Wurm seems to be saying that 15 power with some upsides will cost you 11 mana. Kalonian Behemoth gives 9 power and some protection but isn't a competitive threat. If anything, a 10/20 without built-in protection or evasion is at risk of being too weak, considering other options already in print.
This seems to show that a 10-power creature at 1GGGGG is pushing the boundaries for green, indicating that it may be too powerful. But comparing it to similar cards already in print says it's pretty close to reasonable, and most of those cards see marginal play even in Casual decks. I still think it would get people thinking "how can I get this out on turn 3, and make sure it connects with my opponent turn 4 and 5?" I'd probably try it out myself.
Really big things are so often Wurms or Hydras, how about something else? Maybe some kind of Avatar, Mutant, Beast, or Elemental.
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Serra Avatar was given anti-reanimation text for a very good reason, and likewise the 20/20 creature (Marit Lage) was made a token hidden behind a triggered ability for a reason (and Emrakul kept to 15 power). Cards like Sutured Ghoul or Erratic Explosion can do horrible things with printed number 20s, even if they are hidden in reasonably 'safe' places like mana costs.
I don't think there's any cards in print now that could abuse a 20 printed toughness, but making that creature may preclude such cards being designed in future.
With respect to Ghoultree - the Standard format at the time was incredibly hostile to the card. I believe the card would be playable today, but it was in Standard alongside Vapor Snag/Snapcaster for the first 8 months (as well as Thrun and one good pro-green Sword), then Terminus as well for the next 4 months, then Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Rest In Peace, Blasphemous Act, Boros Reckoner and Dreadbore after that. And Garruk, Primal Hunter blocked it all day while getting closer to ultimate, or Thundermaw Hellkite or Hellrider killed you when you tapped out to play the thing.
I'd be interested to see if it was played in today's Standard decks if it were legal. The hard answers to it are mostly 3-4 mana.
Ooooh. Call me a bad boy, but I like it even more now. Mythics sometimes break rules or do one-time things. "Comboing with some future design that can abuse 20 toughness" is another claim to fame
I think you're right about Ghoultree being better in today's Standard than in its own. Maybe 6G would have been the right cost for it, had it been intended as a powerful mythic that sees serious play. Nonetheless, I've just picked up a few playsets of it for next to nothing, in case I want to play with some or wait until green gets more toys for graveyard shenanigans, as it has been recently.
Here's another green design that came up while working on my "strong analysis". I figure 2GG could get you a 4/7 fairly safely, but I wanted a mid-range creature with the 2 things all creatures want, evasion and unsolvability. Mono-green has yet to get trample and hexproof together, but I don't see any reason to continue that tradition.
Neckflare Kavu - 2GG
Creature - Kavu
Trample, hexproof
4/3
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I suggest if you want a trampling, unsolvable creature that you either reprint Vorapede or make a variant thereof. Imagine how good that card would have been if it were in Theros.
Back on Ghoultree - I stand by it being playable or at least worth testing in today's Standard as printed (at 7G) without needing the reduction to 6G. It's all about the removal it stacks up against, the sweepers, and the prevalence of grave hate.
I agree hexproof is overdone already. Giving the Kavu something else instead would be fine with me, as long as it makes it tougher to kill.
Re: Ghoultree maybe being playable in today's Stadard. That's neither here nor there, though. If it's in question whether or not it's playable in Standard, then it's probably not playable enough. It's kinda like saying "it might be Block playable". I'm aiming for a design that would make players take note, and consider adding it to a deck, or making a deck to take advantage of it. Not a creature that might be Block or Standard playable, if printed at the right time. If Ghoultree was seeing at least some Legacy play as well as quite solid Modern play, and it was in demand for Casual decks as well, then it would be a good benchmark. I don't know from personal experience how well it's doing on the tourny scene, but if the pricetag is any indication, nobody anywhere is playing it, period. Either it's an undiscovered gem that should be on every green decklist, or it's just not really good enough as printed. I think it's the latter...
Anyhow, do you really think Big Dumb Green Dude is possible? 2/2+ for G?
Sandwood Elk - G
Creature - Elk (U)
2/2
I was just going to go for something vanilla, heh.
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I tend to do custom designs on the basis 'I want this to be good but safe in the present Standard and most forseeable Standard formats', however. I'm concerned that any upgrade on Ghoultree that dropped the mana cost would make it potentially absurd in a Standard format with cards like Satyr Wayfinder or Mulch and where removal is of a lower quality (e.g. today).
Your Sandwood Elk would be outclassed by the 'good' one-drops of recent years (Champion of the Parish, Delver, Monastery Swiftspear, etc) but would be good enough for Standard play in most environments. It would not be good enough in today's because 1 mana aggro dudes are so poorly positioned right now, but this is an unusual situation.
To be honest, I think a lot of designers will have a problem with the Elk, let alone the Dude. Maybe I'll make a thread about it tomorrow, assuming there hasn't already been a good one on that topic recently.
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