I'll be taking a couple days to digest the recent analysis done by bravelion and myself. Lots of good stuff here.
In the meantime, what's the consensus..... is Etched Monstrosity a 5/5+ for 5? I could see arguments either way but I lean toward "yes".
Personally, I think it just comes down to convention. I chose to ignore creatures entering the battlefield with -1/-1 counters on them considering it a form of drawback, and also because it simplified my work. But that was my own choice for now, you can choose to include them as well. But if you include them, you should also include the many creatures that are 0/0 and enter the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on them, for example all creatures with graft or modular. In the end, I also think there are arguments for both sides but as long as your choice is clear and justified there should be no problem with it.
I'm aware that both my analysis posts are quite long, especially the second, so I repeat: take your time! There's no hurry!
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
For a couple blocks a few years ago, there were some cards printed (mainly for limited) that punished -1/-1 counters (stuff like Kulrath Knight or Steady Progress). There were also cards printed that make -1/-1 counters an advantage, and there are cards that can remove tokens en masse like Æther Snap. On the other hand, there are also cards that make +1/+1 counters a bonus or resource, and cards that make +1/+1 counters a drawback or liability. I would not point at counters (+1/+1, -1/-1, or other types) to be inherantly bonuses or drawbacks.
I've used Gatherer and my brain for most of it, but Gatherer's search has limitations. For example, if there was a creature out there like this...
Spikedog - 2G
Creature - Hound
When Spikedog enters the battlefield, put 2 +1/+1 counters on target creature.
1/1
... then I'd consider it a 3/3+ for 2G, and it would knock Centaur Courser off the list. Gatherer wouldn't have helped me find Spikedog though.
So indeed, I've already included creatures that have power and/or toughness modified by their own counters. I skipped Etched Monstrosity when I first did up the master list because I was excluding mythics at that time, but now it appears it should be added.
Maybe "did the designers of Etched Monstrosity mean it to be a 5-mana 10/10 with a drawback, a 5/5 with a bonus, or a 5/5 with a drawback?" is the question here.
Or maybe we should simplify the problem down. Consider the following hypothetical creature:
Spinebeast - 2G
Creature - Beast
Spinebeast enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it.
5/4
If that card was in print, and assuming it wasn't warping Modern or anything, I'd conclude a 4/3 for 2G is printable. (Not saying that would happen. It's just an example.)
Etched Monstrosity is just a slightly flashier version of Spinebeast, so if you agree with me about one, you agree with me about the other.
In fact, Etched Monstrosity has an activated ability which can use the -1/-1 counters as a resource, should you come up with the right mana. But a deck that can use the activated ability can't take advantage of the fact that Etched Monstrosity's mana cost is colorless, so to me it's either a 5/5+ for WUBRG or essentially a vanilla 5/5 for 5.
For the purposes of my master list, Etched Monstrosity appears to be a 5/5 for with a potential upside. I'm not shocked that it never sees play. For 6, one can very easily get a 6/6 with massive upsides and no counters to mess around with, and even Scuttling Doom Engine sees no play.
I'm not calling for a reprint of Su-Chi and Cathodion or anything, but it appears that 5/5 for 5, 6/6 for 6, and 7/7 for 7 are safe stats.
So indeed, I've already included creatures that have power and/or toughness modified by their own counters. I skipped Etched Monstrosity when I first did up the master list because I was excluding mythics at that time, but now it appears it should be added.
Given this, I think you should definitely add the Monstrosity too. Instead, I've not yet included them right because I'm basing on Gatherer and it doesn't make it that easy to include them, as you too said before. I don't exclude to do so in the future.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Cool, I'll update my master list soon with that. And while I'm at it, a design that takes the above into consideration:
Piecemeal Hydra - X
Artifact Creature - Construct Hydra
X can't be less than 5.
Piecemeal Hydra enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Trample
0/0
Maybe "did the designers of Etched Monstrosity mean it to be a 5-mana 10/10 with a drawback, a 5/5 with a bonus, or a 5/5 with a drawback?" is the question here.
Yes, Etched Monstrosity sets a precedent for a 5/5 for 5. But the creature you presented to exemplify that precedent is thoroughly erroneous. Which surprises me because you're usually quite precise. Anyways, you're both missing the obvious - Etched Monstrosity was intended as a foil to Infect.
Etched Monstrosity was intended as a foil to Infect.
Not sure what you mean here, either. By a foil to infect, I assume you meant against creatures from the same set that have infect, like Razor Swine? In what way does Etched Monstrosity specifically work against it? Does the 10/10 block Infect creatures to accumulate -1/-1 counters, and then activate its ability to draw 3 cards, then rinse and repeat? If that's the big foil, cool, but I've never seen it happen or even heard of it happening. Are we talking Constructed infect decks, or limited? Because if it was meant to foil Constructed infect decks, it has failed miserably. If it was meant to foil Limited infect decks, why did they give that task to a mythic? I don't get it.
Anyhow, I'll consider it a 5/5 (not 5/5+) for 5, for the purpose of my master list. If you're playing it in a colourless deck, you can't use the activated ability, so it's vanilla. It's only 5/5+ in a WUBRG deck.
What would the creature portion of a set skeleton look like if it drew from the master list?
A very interesting question, and one I will definitely work on as soon as I can. Thanks.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Be aware it will take some time though... don't expect it before a few days at least.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Just coming back to chime in on the Etched Monstrosity example.
You can certainly make up a game state in which EM is inferior to a vanilla 5/5 for 5. You can also design a gamestate where Shock is superior to Lightning Bolt (you are at 3 life, opponent is at 10 and controls a Boros Reckoner with a -1/-1 counter on it, and you have a Ghoultree). This comes up a lot in 'strictly better' arguments.
However a more useful criterion is:
"Has there ever been a Constructed environment where, for the purposes of deck design, a vanilla 5/5 for 5 would be superior to Etched Monstrosity?"
I think we can confidently say the answer is no, and so EM is a 5/5 with an upside.
For what it's worth, a creature costed at 5 would need to be considerably better than '5/5 trinket text' to see play. Whilst I don't expect to ever see it printed, a 7/7 vanilla would be a forgettable card outside Limited.
Neither do I. Nyx-Fleece Ram should already be in my lists if I recall correctly.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
There have been many advancements and analysis over the OP, including making my own list and analysis. You can find everything if you read the whole thread. I'm sure I have included it in my own list, I don't know about and can't speak for rancored_elf, who had the original idea and made the OP with his own list, which is not exactly the same as mine, but I think he included it too. He may have done so later than the OP though, and in that case you should be able to find it too reading the thread. If you have any more questions you're welcome! Contributions too, even if I believe that all relevant existing cards have been found, but a lot of analysis is still to be done!
I also apologize if this project has fallen a bit behind in my priorities, there are still many unsolved question and I have all the intention to take it back into my hands sometimes in the near future.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yeah, linear forums are too tedious. If this stuff was organized into nested replies, I'd read the top level replies and then drill down into the good ones... as it stands, on a linear forum I'm gonna look at the first page and last page only.
However! Now that I know you've kinda "taken it over", I'll skim back and read your longest-looking posts for more info. Up til now, I assumed the OP was still running the show. Perhaps split your version of the project off into its own thread, so people can see its current state more easily, without the distraction of replies that are only meant for the OP?
Yeah, linear forums are too tedious. If this stuff was organized into nested replies, I'd read the top level replies and then drill down into the good ones... as it stands, on a linear forum I'm gonna look at the first page and last page only.
You're losing quite a lot of information doing this though...
However! Now that I know you've kinda "taken it over", I'll skim back and read your longest-looking posts for more info. Up til now, I assumed the OP was still running the show. Perhaps split your version of the project off into its own thread, so people can see its current state more easily, without the distraction of replies that are only meant for the OP?
I haven't taken anything over. I'm still a contributor like everyone else. It's more like there are two very similar and deeply linked projects going on benefitting from the information of one another. When I go on with my own analysis I'll decide if going on here or creating a new thread. We'll see.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Yes, I was mainly referring to that when I was saying that I'll take this back into my hands sometimes. I've not forgotten, other things just had higher priority, and that's work that requires some time.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Some time ago it was asked to me to try to fill a design skeleton with the cards from the list, to see what a set comprising the best cmc-to-PT ratio in the history of the game could potentially look like. I had to set this aside for some time because of real life things and other projects coming up (such as the custom set I'm collaborating in: Extinctia), but now I'm going to face that challenge.
I'm going to use the design skeleton from this article by Mark Rosewater. For simplicity, it refers to only common cards from a small set. One could build the skeleton for uncommon and rares too (I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to do so for mythics), and also for a large set, but for now I'll leave these as further future improvements. Now I'm going to first adjust a few details to fit the skeleton to today's standards (the article is from 2011, so it starts getting a little dated), and then fill the skeleton with the best card available in my version of the list for each slot in the skeleton.
For reference, I'm considering this version of the skeleton (the second to last in the article):
The Master List is only about creatures, so I'm going to keep only creature slots and eliminate the rest. A few notes:
• Shroud is no longer supported, so I'm going to change it to hexproof.
• Intimidate is also no longer supported at the time of this writing. We know it's getting replaced by menace, but as Magic Origins hasn't come out yet, there are no real cards with menace out yet, so I'm going to treat it as intimidate nonetheless.
• Where there are two or more slots for the same kind of creature (for example, in green's medium creatures), I'm going to take the best that many cards from the list.
• This is only one possible version of a design skeleton. One could build any number of other versions changing keywords, rearranging them, changing the creature size, and so on. I'm not going to analyze every possible variation, it would take just too much time (if such a thing is even possible).
Let's keep in mind the conventions about creature size:
Quote from MaRo"s article »
Small means anything from a 0/1 up to about a 2/3. Medium is a 3/3 up to about a 4/5. Large is 5/5 or larger.
Now we're ready to take creatures from the list to fill the skeleton. The result is the following:
CW01 – creature, small – Loxodon Convert
CW02 – creature, small, flying – Assault Griffin
CW03 – creature, small, first strike – none in the list, the best would be Peregrine Griffin
CW04 – creature, small, flash – none in the list, the best would be Benalish Knight
CW05 – creature, medium, vigilance – Maze Sentinel
CW06 – creature, medium, flying – none in the list, the best would be Castle Raptors
CU01 – creature, small, flying – Azure Drake
CU02 – creature, small, hexproof – (none existing at common)
CU03 – creature, medium, flying – Maze Glider
CU04 – creature, large – Glacial Stalker (no 5/5 or larger in the list)
CB01 – creature, small – Warpath Ghoul
CB02 – creature, small, flying – none in the list, the best would be Jagwasp Swarm
CB03 – creature, small, deathtouch – none in the list, the best would be Moonglove Winnower
CB04 – creature, medium, intimidate – none in the list, the best would be Accursed Spirit
CB05 – creature, medium – Krumar Bond-Kin
CB06 – creature, medium – Maze Abomination
CR01 – creature, small – Kragma Butcher
CR02 – creature, small, first strike – none in the list, the best would be Anaba Bodyguard
CR03 – creature, small – Hardened Berserker
CR04 – creature, medium, haste – Tenement Crasher
CR05 – creature, medium, trample – Sabertooth Outrider
CG01 – creature, small – Colossodon Yearling
CG02 – creature, small, regeneration – none in the list, the best would be Tel-Jilad Exile
CG03 – creature, small, deathtouch – none in the list, the best would be Kessig Recluse
CG04 – creature, medium, reach – Sentinel Spider
CG05 – creature, medium – Rumbling Baloth
CG06 – creature, medium – Carnivorous Moss-Beast
CG07 – creature, large, trample – Vulpine Goliath
CA01 – creature, medium – Phyrexian Hulk
That's all I've got for now. Thanks for reading.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
It should be noted that since the pair of power and toughness is a tuple there is no predefined strict order on them, but I personally sort them by TOTAL power and toughness first, which means that small creatures are everything with P+T<6 and medium is served as 6<=P+T<10 (I personally would also be more strict). At the very least Loxodon Convert does not qualify as "small" and hence the list is quiet useless to me.
You could rgue that Loxodon Convert would fill in none of the categories MaRo defines, but the same is true for Force of Savagery but that does not mae it a "small" creature. If you go strictly by the definition provided Loxodon Convert does not belong in the list at all. It is arbitrary to sort by toughness first and power second - the effect is skewed results that cease to produce any useful information.
I like the general idea of what you are doing, but you need to address how "small", "medium" and "large" are defined and use a more meaningful method than you are applying right now.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Yes, I agree there are quite some problems with the approach I used for filling the skeleton, but I still wanted to publish that as answer to one thing that was asked to me. I might review it with a better approach in the future.
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• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for: "Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index.Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
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Personally, I think it just comes down to convention. I chose to ignore creatures entering the battlefield with -1/-1 counters on them considering it a form of drawback, and also because it simplified my work. But that was my own choice for now, you can choose to include them as well. But if you include them, you should also include the many creatures that are 0/0 and enter the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on them, for example all creatures with graft or modular. In the end, I also think there are arguments for both sides but as long as your choice is clear and justified there should be no problem with it.
I'm aware that both my analysis posts are quite long, especially the second, so I repeat: take your time! There's no hurry!
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
That's true. In the OP I said:
So indeed, I've already included creatures that have power and/or toughness modified by their own counters. I skipped Etched Monstrosity when I first did up the master list because I was excluding mythics at that time, but now it appears it should be added.
Maybe "did the designers of Etched Monstrosity mean it to be a 5-mana 10/10 with a drawback, a 5/5 with a bonus, or a 5/5 with a drawback?" is the question here.
Or maybe we should simplify the problem down. Consider the following hypothetical creature:
Spinebeast - 2G
Creature - Beast
Spinebeast enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it.
5/4
If that card was in print, and assuming it wasn't warping Modern or anything, I'd conclude a 4/3 for 2G is printable. (Not saying that would happen. It's just an example.)
Etched Monstrosity is just a slightly flashier version of Spinebeast, so if you agree with me about one, you agree with me about the other.
In fact, Etched Monstrosity has an activated ability which can use the -1/-1 counters as a resource, should you come up with the right mana. But a deck that can use the activated ability can't take advantage of the fact that Etched Monstrosity's mana cost is colorless, so to me it's either a 5/5+ for WUBRG or essentially a vanilla 5/5 for 5.
For the purposes of my master list, Etched Monstrosity appears to be a 5/5 for with a potential upside. I'm not shocked that it never sees play. For 6, one can very easily get a 6/6 with massive upsides and no counters to mess around with, and even Scuttling Doom Engine sees no play.
I'm not calling for a reprint of Su-Chi and Cathodion or anything, but it appears that 5/5 for 5, 6/6 for 6, and 7/7 for 7 are safe stats.
0: 1/1
1: 1/2+
2: 2/1+
3: 3/1+
4: 5/1+
5: 5/5?
6: 6/6+
I guess Kuldotha Forgemaster, Stone Golem, and Tangle Hulk are no longer all that significant to the master list (if they ever were)..?
.
Given this, I think you should definitely add the Monstrosity too. Instead, I've not yet included them right because I'm basing on Gatherer and it doesn't make it that easy to include them, as you too said before. I don't exclude to do so in the future.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Piecemeal Hydra - X
Artifact Creature - Construct Hydra
X can't be less than 5.
Piecemeal Hydra enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Trample
0/0
.
Yes, Etched Monstrosity sets a precedent for a 5/5 for 5. But the creature you presented to exemplify that precedent is thoroughly erroneous. Which surprises me because you're usually quite precise. Anyways, you're both missing the obvious - Etched Monstrosity was intended as a foil to Infect.
Do you mean Spinebeast or Piecemeal Hydra?
Not sure what you mean here, either. By a foil to infect, I assume you meant against creatures from the same set that have infect, like Razor Swine? In what way does Etched Monstrosity specifically work against it? Does the 10/10 block Infect creatures to accumulate -1/-1 counters, and then activate its ability to draw 3 cards, then rinse and repeat? If that's the big foil, cool, but I've never seen it happen or even heard of it happening. Are we talking Constructed infect decks, or limited? Because if it was meant to foil Constructed infect decks, it has failed miserably. If it was meant to foil Limited infect decks, why did they give that task to a mythic? I don't get it.
Anyhow, I'll consider it a 5/5 (not 5/5+) for 5, for the purpose of my master list. If you're playing it in a colourless deck, you can't use the activated ability, so it's vanilla. It's only 5/5+ in a WUBRG deck.
.
A very interesting question, and one I will definitely work on as soon as I can. Thanks.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
I was hoping you'd say that.
Be aware it will take some time though... don't expect it before a few days at least.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
You can certainly make up a game state in which EM is inferior to a vanilla 5/5 for 5. You can also design a gamestate where Shock is superior to Lightning Bolt (you are at 3 life, opponent is at 10 and controls a Boros Reckoner with a -1/-1 counter on it, and you have a Ghoultree). This comes up a lot in 'strictly better' arguments.
However a more useful criterion is:
"Has there ever been a Constructed environment where, for the purposes of deck design, a vanilla 5/5 for 5 would be superior to Etched Monstrosity?"
I think we can confidently say the answer is no, and so EM is a 5/5 with an upside.
For what it's worth, a creature costed at 5 would need to be considerably better than '5/5 trinket text' to see play. Whilst I don't expect to ever see it printed, a 7/7 vanilla would be a forgettable card outside Limited.
Neither do I. Nyx-Fleece Ram should already be in my lists if I recall correctly.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
There have been many advancements and analysis over the OP, including making my own list and analysis. You can find everything if you read the whole thread. I'm sure I have included it in my own list, I don't know about and can't speak for rancored_elf, who had the original idea and made the OP with his own list, which is not exactly the same as mine, but I think he included it too. He may have done so later than the OP though, and in that case you should be able to find it too reading the thread. If you have any more questions you're welcome! Contributions too, even if I believe that all relevant existing cards have been found, but a lot of analysis is still to be done!
I also apologize if this project has fallen a bit behind in my priorities, there are still many unsolved question and I have all the intention to take it back into my hands sometimes in the near future.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
However! Now that I know you've kinda "taken it over", I'll skim back and read your longest-looking posts for more info. Up til now, I assumed the OP was still running the show. Perhaps split your version of the project off into its own thread, so people can see its current state more easily, without the distraction of replies that are only meant for the OP?
You're losing quite a lot of information doing this though...
I haven't taken anything over. I'm still a contributor like everyone else. It's more like there are two very similar and deeply linked projects going on benefitting from the information of one another. When I go on with my own analysis I'll decide if going on here or creating a new thread. We'll see.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Still hoping.
Yes, I was mainly referring to that when I was saying that I'll take this back into my hands sometimes. I've not forgotten, other things just had higher priority, and that's work that requires some time.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
Some time ago it was asked to me to try to fill a design skeleton with the cards from the list, to see what a set comprising the best cmc-to-PT ratio in the history of the game could potentially look like. I had to set this aside for some time because of real life things and other projects coming up (such as the custom set I'm collaborating in: Extinctia), but now I'm going to face that challenge.
I'm going to use the design skeleton from this article by Mark Rosewater. For simplicity, it refers to only common cards from a small set. One could build the skeleton for uncommon and rares too (I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to do so for mythics), and also for a large set, but for now I'll leave these as further future improvements. Now I'm going to first adjust a few details to fit the skeleton to today's standards (the article is from 2011, so it starts getting a little dated), and then fill the skeleton with the best card available in my version of the list for each slot in the skeleton.
For reference, I'm considering this version of the skeleton (the second to last in the article):
CW01 – creature, small
CW02 – creature, small, flying
CW03 – creature, small, first strike
CW04 – creature, small, flash
CW05 – creature, medium, vigilance
CW06 – creature, medium, flying
CW07 – sorcery – token making, flying
CW08 – instant
CW09 – instant
CW10 – enchantment, aura
CU01 – creature, small, flying
CU02 – creature, small, shroud
CU03 – creature, medium, flying
CU04 – creature, large
CU05 – instant
CU06 – instant
CU07 – instant
CU08 – sorcery
CU09 – sorcery
CU10 – enchantment, aura
CB01 – creature, small
CB02 – creature, small, flying
CB03 – creature, small, deathtouch
CB04 – creature, medium, intimidate
CB05 – creature, medium
CB06 – creature, medium
CB07 – instant
CB08 – sorcery
CB09 – sorcery
CB10 – enchantment, aura
CR01 – creature, small
CR02 – creature, small, first strike
CR03 – creature, small
CR04 – creature, medium, haste
CR05 – creature, medium, trample
CR06 – instant
CR07 – instant
CR08 – instant
CR09 – sorcery
CR10 – enchantment, aura
CG01 – creature, small
CG02 – creature, small, regeneration
CG03 – creature, small, deathtouch
CG04 – creature, medium, reach
CG05 – creature, medium
CG06 – creature, medium
CG07 – creature, large, trample
CG08 – instant
CG09 – sorcery
CG10 – enchantment, aura
CA01 – creature, medium
CA02 – sac effect
CA03 – tap ability
CA04 – equipment
CA05 – equipment
CL01 – produces W
CL02 – produces U
CL03 – produces B
CL04 – produces R
CL05 – produces G
The Master List is only about creatures, so I'm going to keep only creature slots and eliminate the rest. A few notes:
• Shroud is no longer supported, so I'm going to change it to hexproof.
• Intimidate is also no longer supported at the time of this writing. We know it's getting replaced by menace, but as Magic Origins hasn't come out yet, there are no real cards with menace out yet, so I'm going to treat it as intimidate nonetheless.
• Where there are two or more slots for the same kind of creature (for example, in green's medium creatures), I'm going to take the best that many cards from the list.
• This is only one possible version of a design skeleton. One could build any number of other versions changing keywords, rearranging them, changing the creature size, and so on. I'm not going to analyze every possible variation, it would take just too much time (if such a thing is even possible).
All of the above changes the skeleton to this:
CW01 – creature, small
CW02 – creature, small, flying
CW03 – creature, small, first strike
CW04 – creature, small, flash
CW05 – creature, medium, vigilance
CW06 – creature, medium, flying
CU01 – creature, small, flying
CU02 – creature, small, shroud
CU03 – creature, medium, flying
CU04 – creature, large
CB01 – creature, small
CB02 – creature, small, flying
CB03 – creature, small, deathtouch
CB04 – creature, medium, intimidate
CB05 – creature, medium
CB06 – creature, medium
CR01 – creature, small
CR02 – creature, small, first strike
CR03 – creature, small
CR04 – creature, medium, haste
CR05 – creature, medium, trample
CG01 – creature, small
CG02 – creature, small, regeneration
CG03 – creature, small, deathtouch
CG04 – creature, medium, reach
CG05 – creature, medium
CG06 – creature, medium
CG07 – creature, large, trample
CA01 – creature, medium
Let's keep in mind the conventions about creature size:
Now we're ready to take creatures from the list to fill the skeleton. The result is the following:
CW01 – creature, small – Loxodon Convert
CW02 – creature, small, flying – Assault Griffin
CW03 – creature, small, first strike – none in the list, the best would be Peregrine Griffin
CW04 – creature, small, flash – none in the list, the best would be Benalish Knight
CW05 – creature, medium, vigilance – Maze Sentinel
CW06 – creature, medium, flying – none in the list, the best would be Castle Raptors
CU01 – creature, small, flying – Azure Drake
CU02 – creature, small, hexproof – (none existing at common)
CU03 – creature, medium, flying – Maze Glider
CU04 – creature, large – Glacial Stalker (no 5/5 or larger in the list)
CB01 – creature, small – Warpath Ghoul
CB02 – creature, small, flying – none in the list, the best would be Jagwasp Swarm
CB03 – creature, small, deathtouch – none in the list, the best would be Moonglove Winnower
CB04 – creature, medium, intimidate – none in the list, the best would be Accursed Spirit
CB05 – creature, medium – Krumar Bond-Kin
CB06 – creature, medium – Maze Abomination
CR01 – creature, small – Kragma Butcher
CR02 – creature, small, first strike – none in the list, the best would be Anaba Bodyguard
CR03 – creature, small – Hardened Berserker
CR04 – creature, medium, haste – Tenement Crasher
CR05 – creature, medium, trample – Sabertooth Outrider
CG01 – creature, small – Colossodon Yearling
CG02 – creature, small, regeneration – none in the list, the best would be Tel-Jilad Exile
CG03 – creature, small, deathtouch – none in the list, the best would be Kessig Recluse
CG04 – creature, medium, reach – Sentinel Spider
CG05 – creature, medium – Rumbling Baloth
CG06 – creature, medium – Carnivorous Moss-Beast
CG07 – creature, large, trample – Vulpine Goliath
CA01 – creature, medium – Phyrexian Hulk
That's all I've got for now. Thanks for reading.
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)
You could rgue that Loxodon Convert would fill in none of the categories MaRo defines, but the same is true for Force of Savagery but that does not mae it a "small" creature. If you go strictly by the definition provided Loxodon Convert does not belong in the list at all. It is arbitrary to sort by toughness first and power second - the effect is skewed results that cease to produce any useful information.
I like the general idea of what you are doing, but you need to address how "small", "medium" and "large" are defined and use a more meaningful method than you are applying right now.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (15): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here) || Judge (34): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last one here)
CCL - Winner (3): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last one here) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (3): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016
• The two public custom sets I've been part a part of the design team for:
"Brotherhood of Ormos" - Blog post with all info - set thread - design skeleton / card list || "Extinctia: Homo Evanuit" - Blog post with all info - set thread - card list spreadsheet
• "The Lion's Lair", my article series about MTG and custom card design in particular. Latest article here. Here is the article index. Rather outdated by now, and based on the old MCC rubric, but I'm leaving this here for anybody that might be interested anyway.
• My only public attempt at being a writer: the story of my Leonin custom planeswalker Jeff Lionheart. (I have a very big one that I'm working on right now but that's private for now, and I don't know if I will ever actually publish it, and I also have ideas for multiple future ones, including one where I'm going to reprise Jeff.)