MountainfallXRR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Reveal the top X cards of your library. For each mountain revealed this way, you may deal 2 damage to target creature or player and choose new targets for each mountain revealed.
Dark Reclamation2B
Sorcery (Common)
Put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard, then return a card from your graveyard to your hand. Curse of black, cut the wrist; darkness reborn, at whim and wish.
Sanguine Tormentor4BB
Creature - Vampire (Rare)
Flying
Whenever Sanguine Tormentor or another creature dies, each opponent loses 1 life. You gain life equal to the total life lost this way.
5/5
Pyretic Vengeance3RR
Instant (Uncommon)
Pyretic Vengeance deals damage to target creature or player equal to the number of instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard. "Which is more dangerous, to forget ones past, or to remember its burning pain?"
Pyretic Vengeance probably isn't common. Had a card similar, and general consensus with these types is stick them at uncommon (where they're still really, really good). It scales very, very fast.
I guess I can agree. I always thought Ire of Kaminari was the perfect "build around me" card, but I guess this is a lot more powerful considering we are talking about all kinds of Instants and Sorceries. I also have a fetish for Pauper formats, so that swayed my decision there. Anyhow, could I increase the cost to make it common? If not I don't have a big problem with making it uncommon.
Also, how can you do spoiler wraps on these new forums? I wanted to start updating the main thread but I can't without spoiler wrap formatting. I don't know how to do it! Thanks!
I;m having trouble understanding Mountainfall - what do you mean by choosing new targets for each Mountain revealed?
I'm going to buck the trend and say that Pyretic Vengeance is fine at common. You're rarely going to have more than 6 or 7 sorceries or instants in your Limited deck (which is where rarity counts).
I guess I am having a hard time describing Mountainfall, so I can give you an example. Let's say you reveal 3 mountains from your library with this card's effect. You get to deal 2 damage three different times (One for each mountain revealed; 3 mountains revealed) to 3 different targets, or all to the same target. Basically, you can just divide up the damage as you choose.
At Uncommon, I will drop Pyretic Vengeance down to 2RR. As much as I would like it to be common, and I think it could be, but I am fairly sure I'd have to set the costs at 6 or 7 mana. Depending on where other cards fall in the set as it is being created, I will determine where it will sit. You are correct, rarity matters in draft formats and limited, and most of the time instant and sorcery decks are not their strongest there. You'd usually be able to dish out about as much damage as a Explosive Impact if you're lucky. It also requires a specialized deck in order to do a lot of damage. In standard, the rarity matters little considering if people want to play a certain deck, they'll buy the cards. Since I don't particularly gain any money for producing chase rares, like Wizards (lol) I wouldn't mind this at common. Also, since I said I like Pauper, I would really like this to be a card. Izzet Control would be an awesome deck!
I guess I am having a hard time describing Mountainfall, so I can give you an example. Let's say you reveal 3 mountains from your library with this card's effect. You get to deal 2 damage three different times (One for each mountain revealed; 3 mountains revealed) to 3 different targets, or all to the same target. Basically, you can just divide up the damage as you choose.
There's an issue here - you need to declare all your targets as you cast the spell, but you won't know how many legal targets there are until the spell actually begins to resolve.
Possible fix:
Mountainfall XRR
Instant
When you cast Mountainfall, reveal X cards from the top of your library. Put a copy of Mountainfall onto the stack for each Mountain revealed in this way. You may choose new targets for the copies. Then put all cards revealed this way on the bottom of your library in a random order.
Mountainfall deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
The first sentence is worded as a triggered ability a la Storm, and this version ends up dealing 2 more damage than you originally conceived (you still get a Shock if you whiff).
Possible fix:
Mountainfall XRR
Instant
When you cast Mountainfall, reveal X cards from the top of your library. Put a copy of Mountainfall onto the stack for each Mountain revealed in this way. You may choose new targets for the copies. Then put all cards revealed this way on the bottom of your library in a random order.
Mountainfall deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
The first sentence is worded as a triggered ability a la Storm, and this version ends up dealing 2 more damage than you originally conceived (you still get a Shock if you whiff).
"Copy Mountainfall" works just as well as "Put a copy of Mountainfall onto the stack"
"As an additional cost to cast ~, reveal the top X cards of your library.
Choose up to X target creatures and/or players. For each Mountain card revealed this way, you may have ~ deal 2 damage to one of the chosen targets."
+ It doesn't require awkward things like copying Mountainfall a bunch of times depending on what X is.
+ It reads nicely.
+ If a chosen target becomes illegal, you can just either opt not to have Mountainfall deal damage for that iteration, or you can have that damage be dealt to a different creature or player instead.
+ The number of targets isn't fixed at X, so you can opt to have all the damage dumped onto one creature or player if you wish. The obvious disadvantage to this is that if that one creature or player becomes an illegal target, the entire spell is countered.
The rest of the cards look great.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Mountainfall: This seems rather bad. Even if I'm mono red, if the chances of me flipping a land are about 50% (and its usually less), I have to pay 2RR just for a decent chance of actually doing anything. Unreliability is a high price to pay just to be able to split the damage. Fireballs are strong because they're relevant early and late, while this is bad early and only average late.
Dark Reclamation: Likewise, this also seems kinda bad. It's a three mana sorcery that doesn't actually net you card advantage. In a set built around graveyards the mill could be nice as a potential enabler, but without those themes the mill doesn't help make the card more appealing: if you're milling a card just to get it back, you could have just drawn it naturally.
Sanguine Tormentor: This could actually probably drain 2 life. Noble and Artist are both great, but this comes down so late it's unlikely to have the same impact, especially since a 5/5 flier tends to end games quickly anywa.
Pyretic Vengeance: Spite of Mogis looks pretty good next to this. Spite is a sorcery and only hits creatures (which is a big deal), but I'm not sure this needs to cost 5.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
"As an additional cost to cast ~, reveal the top X cards of your library.
Choose up to X target creatures and/or players. For each Mountain card revealed this way, you may have ~ deal 2 damage to one of the chosen targets."
+ It doesn't require awkward things like copying Mountainfall a bunch of times depending on what X is.
+ It reads nicely.
+ If a chosen target becomes illegal, you can just either opt not to have Mountainfall deal damage for that iteration, or you can have that damage be dealt to a different creature or player instead.
+ The number of targets isn't fixed at X, so you can opt to have all the damage dumped onto one creature or player if you wish. The obvious disadvantage to this is that if that one creature or player becomes an illegal target, the entire spell is countered.
The rest of the cards look great.
Unfortunately that doesn't quite work, as choosing targets happens before costs are paid (Hence Strive cards from Journey Into Nyx can cost more for each additional target). This version would have to pay costs before you choose any targets.
Dark Reclamation: Likewise, this also seems kinda bad. It's a three mana sorcery that doesn't actually net you card advantage. In a set built around graveyards the mill could be nice as a potential enabler, but without those themes the mill doesn't help make the card more appealing: if you're milling a card just to get it back, you could have just drawn it naturally.
Are you saying Recollect is a bad card? It doesn't fail against targeted graveyard hate and even if they remove your whole yard you at least get to put one card from the top 3 into your hand. It's not the best but I'd at least say it's decent
"As an additional cost to cast ~, reveal the top X cards of your library.
Choose up to X target creatures and/or players. For each Mountain card revealed this way, you may have ~ deal 2 damage to one of the chosen targets."
+ It doesn't require awkward things like copying Mountainfall a bunch of times depending on what X is.
+ It reads nicely.
+ If a chosen target becomes illegal, you can just either opt not to have Mountainfall deal damage for that iteration, or you can have that damage be dealt to a different creature or player instead.
+ The number of targets isn't fixed at X, so you can opt to have all the damage dumped onto one creature or player if you wish. The obvious disadvantage to this is that if that one creature or player becomes an illegal target, the entire spell is countered.
The rest of the cards look great.
Unfortunately that doesn't quite work, as choosing targets happens before costs are paid (Hence Strive cards from Journey Into Nyx can cost more for each additional target).
I'm pretty sure you declare a value for X, then choose targets, then pay the cost, so this should work. I am a little unclear on why it would be countered if just one of the targets becomes illegal though, it seems pretty similar to Searing Blaze at first glance.
Mountainfall: This seems rather bad. Even if I'm mono red, if the chances of me flipping a land are about 50% (and its usually less), I have to pay 2RR just for a decent chance of actually doing anything. Unreliability is a high price to pay just to be able to split the damage. Fireballs are strong because they're relevant early and late, while this is bad early and only average late.
Dark Reclamation: Likewise, this also seems kinda bad. It's a three mana sorcery that doesn't actually net you card advantage. In a set built around graveyards the mill could be nice as a potential enabler, but without those themes the mill doesn't help make the card more appealing: if you're milling a card just to get it back, you could have just drawn it naturally.
Sanguine Tormentor: This could actually probably drain 2 life. Noble and Artist are both great, but this comes down so late it's unlikely to have the same impact, especially since a 5/5 flier tends to end games quickly anywa.
Pyretic Vengeance: Spite of Mogis looks pretty good next to this. Spite is a sorcery and only hits creatures (which is a big deal), but I'm not sure this needs to cost 5.
Mountainfall could probably use a guaranteed shock to start with (maybe: "Choose up to X target creatures and/or players. You may have ~ deal 2 damage to one of the chosen targets. Repeat this process for each Mountain card revealed this way."), but it would also be fine staying at this powerlevel.
Recollect and variants are usually bad because they whiff in the early game, so I think giving it a Glimpse the Future WCS actually makes it a pretty reasonable limited card.
Tormentor should stay at 1 because it's each rather than target, but could also be reasonable at 2 targeted.
The ability to hit players as well as creatures is more dangerous on scalable cards like this, but I agree (as did Creedmoor, earlier in the thread) that this is probably better at 2RR.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Unfortunately that doesn't quite work, as choosing targets happens before costs are paid (Hence Strive cards from Journey Into Nyx can cost more for each additional target). This version would have to pay costs before you choose any targets.
It's the same way that kicker works. You announce your intention of paying any extra costs ("additional" or not), then targets are chosen, then after calculating the final cost of the spell, taking the extra costs into account, you pay them.
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[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
It seems like Mountainfall is causing a lot of issues. Perhaps I should just remove it from the set? It does happen to be a very confusing card. The more I look at it, the more confusing it looks.
Are you saying Recollect is a bad card? It doesn't fail against targeted graveyard hate and even if they remove your whole yard you at least get to put one card from the top 3 into your hand. It's not the best but I'd at least say it's decent
Is recollect not a bad card? I mean it's a decent effect, but I don't really want to pay 2 more for my Disentomb, which I'm also not playing. Attached to value it's great (just like Gravedigger, but I rarely want to play it on its own. (Outside of a graveyard set I would probably not play Dark Reclamation).
That also reminds me, can black actually get non-creatures out of the yard?
Tormentor should stay at 1 because it's each rather than target, but could also be reasonable at 2 targeted.
Basically what I'm saying is that this could go up to 2 and not affect anything; it's still going to be great in limited and most likely irrelevant in constructed, but maybe it'll be just a little more interesting when it comes down in a kitchen or commander game.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Unfortunately that doesn't quite work, as choosing targets happens before costs are paid (Hence Strive cards from Journey Into Nyx can cost more for each additional target). This version would have to pay costs before you choose any targets.
It's the same way that kicker works. You announce your intention of paying any extra costs ("additional" or not), then targets are chosen, then after calculating the final cost of the spell, taking the extra costs into account, you pay them.
It doesn't matter if you announce your intention to pay it, you're still not actually paying it until after you select targets. Saying you're going to reveal cards from the top of your library doesn't let you see how many mountains you'll reveal.
Tormentor should stay at 1 because it's each rather than target, but could also be reasonable at 2 targeted.
Basically what I'm saying is that this could go up to 2 and not affect anything; it's still going to be great in limited and most likely irrelevant in constructed, but maybe it'll be just a little more interesting when it comes down in a kitchen or commander game.
I'm saying it would actually be really obnoxious in multiplayer at 2 and each. You wouldn't need that many creatures lying around with a sac outlet to potentially kill a person or 2 and go to an absurd lifetotal. Being almost unanswerable with normal boardwipes is also a problem.
Unfortunately that doesn't quite work, as choosing targets happens before costs are paid (Hence Strive cards from Journey Into Nyx can cost more for each additional target). This version would have to pay costs before you choose any targets.
It's the same way that kicker works. You announce your intention of paying any extra costs ("additional" or not), then targets are chosen, then after calculating the final cost of the spell, taking the extra costs into account, you pay them.
It doesn't matter if you announce your intention to pay it, you're still not actually paying it until after you select targets. Saying you're going to reveal cards from the top of your library doesn't let you see how many mountains you'll reveal.
You don't seem to be aware that it chooses up to X targets, not targets equal to the number of mountains. That was the whole point of the wording.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Concerning Dark Reclamation: This either needs to be color shifted into green or only return creature cards from the graveyard.
If you search for cards like Recollect you will notice that the black ones only ever return creatures.
Concerning Dark Reclamation: This either needs to be color shifted into green or only return creature cards from the graveyard.
If you search for cards like Recollect you will notice that the black ones only ever return creatures.
That's why I wanted to try it in black. It is supposed to use the graveyard as a tutor zone instead of the library. I know that these two colors share the graveyard as a tool, and I think it's fine trying it in black for at least one card.
MountainfallXRR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Reveal the top X cards of your library. For each mountain revealed this way, you may deal 2 damage to target creature or player and choose new targets for each mountain revealed.
This seems clunky, weak, and almost impossible to word correctly. I'd recommend dropping it.
Maybe make a version that works from hand, like this?
Sudden Eruption 1RR
Sorcery (U)
As an additional cost to play Sudden Eruption, reveal X Mountains from your hand.
Sudden Eruption deals 2 times X damage divided in groups of 2 damage among up to X target creatures and/or players.
Dark Reclamation2B
Sorcery (Common)
Put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard, then return a card from your graveyard to your hand. Curse of black, cut the wrist; darkness reborn, at whim and wish.
I actually think this is too powerful. It's an untargeted Recollect that also self-fuels for the early game. It's a Strategic Planning that lets you take any card already in your graveyard over one of the top three.
Sanguine Tormentor4BB
Creature - Vampire (Rare)
Flying
Whenever Sanguine Tormentor or another creature dies, each opponent loses 1 life. You gain life equal to the total life lost this way.
5/5
Pyretic Vengeance3RR
Instant (Uncommon)
Pyretic Vengeance deals damage to target creature or player equal to the number of instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard. "Which is more dangerous, to forget ones past, or to remember its burning pain?"
Mountainfall XRR
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Reveal the top X cards of your library. For each mountain revealed this way, you may deal 2 damage to target creature or player and choose new targets for each mountain revealed.
Dark Reclamation 2B
Sorcery (Common)
Put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard, then return a card from your graveyard to your hand.
Curse of black, cut the wrist; darkness reborn, at whim and wish.
Sanguine Tormentor 4BB
Creature - Vampire (Rare)
Flying
Whenever Sanguine Tormentor or another creature dies, each opponent loses 1 life. You gain life equal to the total life lost this way.
5/5
Based off of Falkenrath Noble and Blood Artist.
Pyretic Vengeance 3RR
Instant (Uncommon)
Pyretic Vengeance deals damage to target creature or player equal to the number of instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard.
"Which is more dangerous, to forget ones past, or to remember its burning pain?"
Based of Ire of Kaminari.
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I guess I can agree. I always thought Ire of Kaminari was the perfect "build around me" card, but I guess this is a lot more powerful considering we are talking about all kinds of Instants and Sorceries. I also have a fetish for Pauper formats, so that swayed my decision there. Anyhow, could I increase the cost to make it common? If not I don't have a big problem with making it uncommon.
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Also, how can you do spoiler wraps on these new forums? I wanted to start updating the main thread but I can't without spoiler wrap formatting. I don't know how to do it! Thanks!
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I'm going to buck the trend and say that Pyretic Vengeance is fine at common. You're rarely going to have more than 6 or 7 sorceries or instants in your Limited deck (which is where rarity counts).
At Uncommon, I will drop Pyretic Vengeance down to 2RR. As much as I would like it to be common, and I think it could be, but I am fairly sure I'd have to set the costs at 6 or 7 mana. Depending on where other cards fall in the set as it is being created, I will determine where it will sit. You are correct, rarity matters in draft formats and limited, and most of the time instant and sorcery decks are not their strongest there. You'd usually be able to dish out about as much damage as a Explosive Impact if you're lucky. It also requires a specialized deck in order to do a lot of damage. In standard, the rarity matters little considering if people want to play a certain deck, they'll buy the cards. Since I don't particularly gain any money for producing chase rares, like Wizards (lol) I wouldn't mind this at common. Also, since I said I like Pauper, I would really like this to be a card. Izzet Control would be an awesome deck!
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There's an issue here - you need to declare all your targets as you cast the spell, but you won't know how many legal targets there are until the spell actually begins to resolve.
Possible fix:
Mountainfall
XRR
Instant
When you cast Mountainfall, reveal X cards from the top of your library. Put a copy of Mountainfall onto the stack for each Mountain revealed in this way. You may choose new targets for the copies. Then put all cards revealed this way on the bottom of your library in a random order.
Mountainfall deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
The first sentence is worded as a triggered ability a la Storm, and this version ends up dealing 2 more damage than you originally conceived (you still get a Shock if you whiff).
"Copy Mountainfall" works just as well as "Put a copy of Mountainfall onto the stack"
"As an additional cost to cast ~, reveal the top X cards of your library.
Choose up to X target creatures and/or players. For each Mountain card revealed this way, you may have ~ deal 2 damage to one of the chosen targets."
+ It doesn't require awkward things like copying Mountainfall a bunch of times depending on what X is.
+ It reads nicely.
+ If a chosen target becomes illegal, you can just either opt not to have Mountainfall deal damage for that iteration, or you can have that damage be dealt to a different creature or player instead.
+ The number of targets isn't fixed at X, so you can opt to have all the damage dumped onto one creature or player if you wish. The obvious disadvantage to this is that if that one creature or player becomes an illegal target, the entire spell is countered.
The rest of the cards look great.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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Dark Reclamation: Likewise, this also seems kinda bad. It's a three mana sorcery that doesn't actually net you card advantage. In a set built around graveyards the mill could be nice as a potential enabler, but without those themes the mill doesn't help make the card more appealing: if you're milling a card just to get it back, you could have just drawn it naturally.
Sanguine Tormentor: This could actually probably drain 2 life. Noble and Artist are both great, but this comes down so late it's unlikely to have the same impact, especially since a 5/5 flier tends to end games quickly anywa.
Pyretic Vengeance: Spite of Mogis looks pretty good next to this. Spite is a sorcery and only hits creatures (which is a big deal), but I'm not sure this needs to cost 5.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Unfortunately that doesn't quite work, as choosing targets happens before costs are paid (Hence Strive cards from Journey Into Nyx can cost more for each additional target). This version would have to pay costs before you choose any targets.
Edit:
Are you saying Recollect is a bad card? It doesn't fail against targeted graveyard hate and even if they remove your whole yard you at least get to put one card from the top 3 into your hand. It's not the best but I'd at least say it's decent
Then how does Gridlock work?
I'm pretty sure you declare a value for X, then choose targets, then pay the cost, so this should work. I am a little unclear on why it would be countered if just one of the targets becomes illegal though, it seems pretty similar to Searing Blaze at first glance.
Mountainfall could probably use a guaranteed shock to start with (maybe: "Choose up to X target creatures and/or players. You may have ~ deal 2 damage to one of the chosen targets. Repeat this process for each Mountain card revealed this way."), but it would also be fine staying at this powerlevel.
Recollect and variants are usually bad because they whiff in the early game, so I think giving it a Glimpse the Future WCS actually makes it a pretty reasonable limited card.
Tormentor should stay at 1 because it's each rather than target, but could also be reasonable at 2 targeted.
The ability to hit players as well as creatures is more dangerous on scalable cards like this, but I agree (as did Creedmoor, earlier in the thread) that this is probably better at 2RR.
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It's the same way that kicker works. You announce your intention of paying any extra costs ("additional" or not), then targets are chosen, then after calculating the final cost of the spell, taking the extra costs into account, you pay them.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
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Is recollect not a bad card? I mean it's a decent effect, but I don't really want to pay 2 more for my Disentomb, which I'm also not playing. Attached to value it's great (just like Gravedigger, but I rarely want to play it on its own. (Outside of a graveyard set I would probably not play Dark Reclamation).
That also reminds me, can black actually get non-creatures out of the yard?
Basically what I'm saying is that this could go up to 2 and not affect anything; it's still going to be great in limited and most likely irrelevant in constructed, but maybe it'll be just a little more interesting when it comes down in a kitchen or commander game.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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It doesn't matter if you announce your intention to pay it, you're still not actually paying it until after you select targets. Saying you're going to reveal cards from the top of your library doesn't let you see how many mountains you'll reveal.
I'm saying it would actually be really obnoxious in multiplayer at 2 and each. You wouldn't need that many creatures lying around with a sac outlet to potentially kill a person or 2 and go to an absurd lifetotal. Being almost unanswerable with normal boardwipes is also a problem.
You don't seem to be aware that it chooses up to X targets, not targets equal to the number of mountains. That was the whole point of the wording.
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If you search for cards like Recollect you will notice that the black ones only ever return creatures.
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That's why I wanted to try it in black. It is supposed to use the graveyard as a tutor zone instead of the library. I know that these two colors share the graveyard as a tool, and I think it's fine trying it in black for at least one card.
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This seems clunky, weak, and almost impossible to word correctly. I'd recommend dropping it.
Maybe make a version that works from hand, like this?
Sudden Eruption 1RR
Sorcery (U)
As an additional cost to play Sudden Eruption, reveal X Mountains from your hand.
Sudden Eruption deals 2 times X damage divided in groups of 2 damage among up to X target creatures and/or players.
I actually think this is too powerful. It's an untargeted Recollect that also self-fuels for the early game. It's a Strategic Planning that lets you take any card already in your graveyard over one of the top three.
Love these kinds of effects. Would play in EDH.
As an uncommon at five mana, this seems fine. Can't really see it at common.
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