I am creating my own Block on a new plane mostly dominated by the allied color pairings, while also having a moderate Tribal theme with each pair being represented by an iconic race for each color, and featuring a set of new Planeswalkers from each Tribe. Also included is a cycle of powerful rares similar to Baneslayer Angel (including, a strictly worse reprint of BSA of a different creature type, not commonly supported as a tribe) for each color with similar design/flavor. I would like your opinions on the Mythic Rares I currently have for the set.
"Baneslayer Cycle"
Avatar of Determination 3WW
Creature - Avatar
First Strike, Flying, Lifelink, Protection from Demons and from Dragons.
5/5
Avatar of Consumption 3BB
Creature - Avatar
Deathtouch, Trample, Lifelink, Protection from Angels and from Trolls.
5/5
Avatar of Creation 3GG
Creature - Avatar
Hexproof, Trample, Lifelink, Protection from Demons and from Sphinxes.
5/5
Avatar of Logic 3UU
Creature - Avatar
Flash, Flying, Hexproof, Protection from Dragons and from Trolls.
5/5
Avatar of Rage 3RR
Creature - Avatar
First Strike, Flying, Haste, Protection from Angels and from Sphinxes.
5/5
Planeswalkers
Harom, the Ascended 4WU
Planeswalker - Harom
+2: Tap target permanent. It doesn't untap during it's controllers next untap step.
-3: You get an Emblem with, “Creatures cannot attack you or a Planeswalker you control unless they pay 1 for each attacking creature."
-12: Shuffle your hand and graveyard into your library, then draw seven cards. Your life total becomes 20.
4
Khorla, the Pathfinder 1GW
Planeswalker - Khorla
+1: Put a +1/+1 counters on up to one target creature you control. Until the beginning of your next turn, that creature is Indestructable.
0: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 4/4 Legendary Troll Scout creature with Indestructable and "All creatures able to clock ~ must do so if able." Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to ~ this turn.
-6: You get an Emblem with, "Creatures you control get +2/+2 and have First Strike and Lifelink."
3
Priya, the Tormentor 2UB
Planeswalker - Priya
+1: Put the top four cards of target players library into that players graveyard. Add a loyalty counter to ~ for each Creature card put into a graveyard this way.
-4: Return target creature card in an opponents graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It gains Haste. At the end of turn, exile that creature.
-10: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature card is put into an opponents graveyard from anywhere, that player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.”
5
Raghal, the Vanguard 3RG
Planeswalker - Raghal
+1: Put two 2/1 Red and Green Dragon Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield.
-X: ~ deals 2 damage to each of up to X target creatures and/or players.
-11: Creatures you control get +X/+X and gain Trample until end of turn, where X is equal to the number of creatures you control.
5
Skarroth, the Wrathful 1BR
Planeswalker - Skarroth
+1: Put a 2/2 Red and Black Demon Soldier creature token with Haste onto the battlefield.
-1: ~ deals 2 damage to target player, then that player discards a card from his or her hand.
-3: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a source you control deals damage, you lose two life and draw a card.”
3
Extra Mythic
Prismatic Mox 0
Artifact
~ doesn't untap during your untap step. If ~ if tapped at the beginning of your upkeep, it deals 2 damage to you.
TAP: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. 2: Untap ~.
Changed attributes of the Baneslayer Cycle
Prismatic Mox is no longer Legendary
Croprazer Dragon 4RR
Creature - Dragon
Flying, Haste, Protection from Angels and from Sphinxes. R: ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
6/6
Hopeslayer Demon 3BB
Creature - Demon
Provoke, Deathtouch, Lifelink, protection from Angels and from Trolls.
6/6
Huntersbane Troll 2GG
Creature - Troll
Provoke, Trample, Protection from Demons and from Sphinxes. G: regenerate ~.
4/4
Logicbane Sphinx 2UU
Creature - Sphinx
Protection from Dragons and from Trolls. U: ~ is unblockable until end of turn. U: ~ gains Hexproof until end of turn. 1: ~ gets +1/-1 until end of turn. 1: ~ gets -1/+1 until end of turn.
4/4
I am creating my own Block on a new plane mostly dominated by the allied color pairings, while also having a moderate Tribal theme with each pair being represented by an iconic race for each color, and featuring a set of new Planeswalkers from each Tribe. Also included is a cycle of Mythics similar to Baneslayer Angel for each color with similar design/flavor. I would like your opinions on the Mythic Rares I currently have for the set.
Croprazer Dragon 4RR
Creature - Dragon
Flying, Haste, Protection from Angels and from Sphinxes. R: ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
6/6
Hopeslayer Demon 3BB
Creature - Demon
Provoke, Deathtouch, Lifelink, protection from Angels and from Trolls.
6/6
Huntersbane Troll 2GG
Creature - Troll
Provoke, Trample, Protection from Demons and from Sphinxes. G: regenerate ~.
4/4
Logicbane Sphinx 2UU
Creature - Sphinx
Protection from Dragons and from Trolls. U: ~ is unblockable until end of turn. U: ~ gains Hexproof until end of turn. 1: ~ gets +1/-1 until end of turn. 1: ~ gets -1/+1 until end of turn.
4/4
The cycle is powerful but a little unexciting. The matching protection will lead to a lot difficult standoffs when two creatures can't hurt the other and a race will occue (hint the black will win just about any race). Croprazer is a very dull dragon. Provoke is an ancient mechanic, probably best not used anything with deathtouch.
Sphinx's don't shift forms. You want your blue card to be a shapeshifter or elemental or something. Also it should have flying. So should the demon really.
Harom, the Ascended 4WU
Planeswalker - Harom
+2: Tap target permanent. It doesn't untap during it's controllers next untap step.
-3: You get an Emblem with, “Creatures cannot attack you or a Planeswalker you control unless they pay 1 for each attacking creature."
-12: Shuffle your hand and graveyard into your library, then draw seven cards. Your life total becomes 20.
4
Six mana walkers have the right to feel really powerful. The +2 is OK, but the emblem ability is too expensive and actually not a lot of fun for anyone. If you fix that, the rest of the card will fall into place - perhaps look for something which syngenesis with the first ability.
Khorla, the Pathfinder 1GW
Planeswalker - Khorla
+1: Put a +1/+1 counters on up to one target creature you control. Until the beginning of your next turn, that creature is Indestructable.
0: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 4/4 Legendary Troll Scout creature with Indestructable and "All creatures able to clock ~ must do so if able." Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to ~ this turn.
-6: You get an Emblem with, "Creatures you control get +2/+2 and have First Strike and Lifelink."
3
Feels too white for a troll. In fact the abilities feel like a good mesh of Gideon/Ajani and Elspeth. I sense the ultimate will be deceptively strong (particularly considering this is only a 3 drop walker).
Priya, the Tormentor 2UB
Planeswalker - Priya
+1: Put the top four cards of target players library into that players graveyard. Add a loyalty counter to ~ for each Creature card put into a graveyard this way.
-4: Return target creature card in an opponents graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It gains Haste. At the end of turn, exile that creature.
-10: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature card is put into an opponents graveyard from anywhere, that player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.”
5
I actually really like Priya, but it needs to be playtested a lot for balance. That said all I would see happening is the numbers being altered and the abilites kept.
Raghal, the Vanguard 3RG
Planeswalker - Raghal
+1: Put two 2/1 Red and Green Dragon Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield.
-X: ~ deals 2 damage to each of up to X target creatures and/or players.
-11: Creatures you control get +X/+X and gain Trample until end of turn, where X is equal to the number of creatures you control.
5
2/1 Dragon Warriors??? I would probably find a single token with this colour combo and tokens are best with square stats if possible. The -X looks ok, ult seems fine, if not for the fact it's a big distance for a walker with a +1.
Skarroth, the Wrathful 1BR
Planeswalker - Skarroth
+1: Put a 2/2 Red and Black Demon Soldier creature token with Haste onto the battlefield.
-1: ~ deals 2 damage to target player, then that player discards a card from his or her hand.
-3: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a source you control deals damage, you lose two life and draw a card.”
3
That is far too good a token for a +1 on a 3 drop. The mini blighting is fairly good. The emblem is gonna do more harm than good. I would look elsewhere for an ultimate.
Extra Mythic
Prismatic Mox 0
Legendary Artifact
~ doesn't untap during your untap step. If ~ if tapped at the beginning of your upkeep, it deals 2 damage to you.
TAP: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. 2: Untap ~.
If your gonna do a cycle of Iconic creatures for each colour at least get the creature types right
White = Angel
Blue = Sphinx
Black = Demon
Red = Dragon Green = Hydra
Also I suggest you loosen up the cycle a little. Strict cycles are far better placed at rare. Mythics are about splashy effects. Which means they get less interesting if you cycle them. It takes something really splashy to be interesting enough for a full cycle. (eg: the Gods in Theros)
For your iconic cycle take a look at the cycle in M14. Archangel of Thune Kalonian Hydra Scourge of Valkas Shadowborn Demon Windreader Sphinx
Anyway I'll take a look at the planeswalkers etc another time.
The cycle is powerful but a little unexciting. The matching protection will lead to a lot difficult standoffs when two creatures can't hurt the other and a race will occue (hint the black will win just about any race). Croprazer is a very dull dragon. Provoke is an ancient mechanic, probably best not used anything with deathtouch.
Sphinx's don't shift forms. You want your blue card to be a shapeshifter or elemental or something. Also it should have flying. So should the demon really.
I agree that after I finished them, a few seemed a little bit underpowered, but for consistencies sake I kept them as is. I did have the idea to not have each one have protection from its enemy colored versions' creature type, but that means I would need to come up with 15 creature types for the cycle, including changing the B and R one to something else. I agree that Provoke is a pretty old mechanic, but it made sense with the Troll, the Demon was more of a "i dont know what else to use" ability. As far as Flying, on the Demon, thats probably an Easy Fix, I just dont want him to turn into a Black Baneslayer. Also agreed about the Sphinx, I came up with the creature types before I did the abilities, it would make much more sense as a Shapeshifter, Elemental, or Illusion.
Also speaking of Baneslayer, if this were a real set, is she weak enough now to warrant a drop to normal Rare? I kept this cycle at Mythic since thats where BSA was originally printed.
Six mana walkers have the right to feel really powerful. The +2 is OK, but the emblem ability is too expensive and actually not a lot of fun for anyone. If you fix that, the rest of the card will fall into place - perhaps look for something which syngenesis with the first ability.
I was thinking of changing the +2 to tap up to 2 permanents since at 6 mana he seems a bit lackluster since all it is now is a carbon copy of Tamiyo. The middle ability was mostly a snap decision, because I couldnt think of a good spammable emblem effect for a UW walker on the level of Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's Emblem, also, UW in this set isnt your usual control pair, the Tribe affiliated with them is similar to Bant, and even uses Exalted as their core mechanic, so I might reduce Harom's CMC to 4-5 and make the Emblem just read "Creatures you control have Vigilance. Exalted" spammable, but a minor waste since Vigilance doesnt stack.
Feels too white for a troll. In fact the abilities feel like a good mesh of Gideon/Ajani and Elspeth. I sense the ultimate will be deceptively strong (particularly considering this is only a 3 drop walker).
Hmm, I agree the abilities are very White, but they match what i thought were the mechanics of the Tribe she is affiliated with. the GW tribe is a race of "Trolls" that live in Tree Villages, similar to the Wookies/Ewoks in Star Wars, and are rather primitive compared to the rest of the Plane's inhabitants. Based slightly on Native American culture.
I actually really like Priya, but it needs to be playtested a lot for balance. That said all I would see happening is the numbers being altered and the abilites kept.
Youre not the first person to tell me this. Several people elsewhere have mentioned she is the best of the 5, and in the least need of tweaking. I might either bump her ult cost up one, or lower starting loyalty by one, that way you need atleast 2 turns to tick her up before you can ult.
2/1 Dragon Warriors??? I would probably find a single token with this colour combo and tokens are best with square stats if possible. The -X looks ok, ult seems fine, if not for the fact it's a big distance for a walker with a +1.
The Dragon Warrior is because of his tribal affiliation, I already thought of changing it to make 3 1/1 Dragon Warriors. Also, the "Dragons" of this plane arent the normal Quadruped Giant Dinosaurs with Wings. The run of the mill "dragon" is a Bipedal humanoid ~8 feet tall, more similar to the Viashino of other sets, but with a few differences. The Minus ability I was debating on changing to a flat -3 or -4 and have it deal 3 to everything, being able to pick off specific targets seems a little oppressive, especially for this color combo. The ult also is a bit high in cost because originally the ult made an Emblem, I intend to change it since its just a one shot.
That is far too good a token for a +1 on a 3 drop. The mini blighting is fairly good. The emblem is gonna do more harm than good. I would look elsewhere for an ultimate.
What would you suggest for the token? I thought about it being Spark Elemental but that may be even better than a 2/2 haste, maybe just a Raging Goblin for balance. The Emblem can be suicidal is you cast him T3 and instantly pop the Emblem, its meant more as a late game ability to keep up your tempo if you get wiped with the opponent at like <10 life. If someone plays him T3 and pops the Emblem, then suicides because they cant deal damage fast enough, they deserved it, because he isnt meant to immediately Emblem. I could probably up the loyalty cost a bit, but the BR tribe is even more aggressive than the Rakdos, and they dont have the patience for such things.
Extra Mythic
Works, doesn't even need to be legendary IMO.
I agree as well, I just made it legendary for balance reasons, but the self Ping is strong enough that it balances itself.
If your gonna do a cycle of Iconic creatures for each colour at least get the creature types right
White = Angel
Blue = Sphinx
Black = Demon
Red = Dragon Green = Hydra
This is only true of the past 2-3 blocks/core sets, Hydras are only being pushed so much right now because of Theros and Greek themes. Before Theros, there was maybe 8-10 other Hydras in all of magic, now theres like 20ish. Before then, the most common creature type for a big green fatty would have been either Trolls or Beasts, and Beasts dont seem like a Tribe that would have a civilization.
Also I suggest you loosen up the cycle a little. Strict cycles are far better placed at rare. Mythics are about splashy effects. Which means they get less interesting if you cycle them. It takes something really splashy to be interesting enough for a full cycle. (eg: the Gods in Theros)
For your iconic cycle take a look at the cycle in M14. Archangel of Thune Kalonian Hydra Scourge of Valkas Shadowborn Demon Windreader Sphinx
Anyway I'll take a look at the planeswalkers etc another time.
I agree this isnt a normally flavorful or "splashy" cycle, I am only placing them at Mythic since that is where the original Baneslayer Angel was printed, If by todays standards she is worthy of a rarity reduction I would be all over dropping the whole group to Rare, but I feel they might be too powerful as is for that.
What is your opinion on making the 5 of them a cycle of creatures like the Titans from a few years ago? Have them all be a single creature type, Elementals or Avatars as an example, with flavorful abilities similar to BSA's ability list? It would require me to effectively reprint BSA as a different card, but I dont think t would be that bad, since WotC has done renamed reprints in the past.
Been a few days and no responses, just wanted to keep this at the front for opinions. I have since last posting changed the 5 cycle of BSA reprints into a cycle of Avatars similar to the Titans from M11 and such. Constructive criticism welcome.
The problem with the BSA cycle is that it's just that: a cycle of BSA. There's nothing unique or special about any of them, they're kind of the definition of formulaic design. Mythic cycles are fine, but doing the same thing five times is just boring. The titans are a good example: they're all 6/6s for 4CC with two abilities, but the abilities are all different enough that each of the titans has a unique identity. These are just cookie cutter cards based on another card that wasn't all that interesting to begin with: not the kind of thing you want to waste five mythic slots on IMO.
Also, Hydras will probably be green's iconic moving forward, at least according to MaRo who's usually a good authority on those kinds of things. At very least, if you told me to choose a green iconic, Trolls would be very far down on that list.
Harom the Ascended is very annoying, his emblems are pretty oppressive and hard to fight through. At least you can fight through a bunch of Sorin emblems, but these just slow the game down in a very not-fun way.
Khorla: The ultimate feels a lot more white than green. In general I like this card, though I think it may need to cost 4. The ability to lure every creature and survive is very strong.
Priya: I like this card, though it does tread close to Ashiok territory, as well as suffering from the same problems (doing nothing against non-creature decks)
Raghal: 2/1 dragon warriors are pretty weird. This card is fine, but the ultimate is ridiculously high (and not justifiably so)
Skarroth: This seems kind of crazy. Xenegos, the Reveler costs 1 more and doesn't gain loyalty for making a 2/2 every turn. This is an insane card advantage engine almost (if not) on par with Liliana of the Veil IMO.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
The problem with the BSA cycle is that it's just that: a cycle of BSA. There's nothing unique or special about any of them, they're kind of the definition of formulaic design. Mythic cycles are fine, but doing the same thing five times is just boring. The titans are a good example: they're all 6/6s for 4CC with two abilities, but the abilities are all different enough that each of the titans has a unique identity. These are just cookie cutter cards based on another card that wasn't all that interesting to begin with: not the kind of thing you want to waste five mythic slots on IMO.
Well, I have since reduced the cycle to Rare instead of Mythic, but I do see your point as to them being a little bland. I may end up making them similar to the Lorwyn? cycle of 5cc hybrid guys (Demigod of Revenge and his ilk) but at 3CC or 2CCC and have them flavored after their respective color combo.
Also, Hydras will probably be green's iconic moving forward, at least according to MaRo who's usually a good authority on those kinds of things. At very least, if you told me to choose a green iconic, Trolls would be very far down on that list.
This Im unsure about, simple because Im pretty sure during the prerelease hype of Theros he said they were pushing Hydras because of the Greek theme. After the Theros block alone, and all 1 standard playable Hydras, Polukranos(JOU not included in this, since it desnt technically exist yet) Id much rather have a more well known creature type for greens big fatty department, like Elementals or Beasts which were everywhere just a few years ago.
Harom the Ascended is very annoying, his emblems are pretty oppressive and hard to fight through. At least you can fight through a bunch of Sorin emblems, but these just slow the game down in a very not-fun way.
I have retweaked him slightly, since his abilities no longer match the direction I am taking his color's tribe.
Harom, the Ascended 3WU
Planeswalker - Harom
+2: Tap up to two target permanents, they dont untap during their controllers next untap step.
-3: Until end of turn, target creature you control is Unblockable and has Lifelink.
-12: You gain 20 Life. Put your graveyard onto the bottom of your library. Search your library for three cards and put them into your hand, then shuffle your library.
4
Khorla: The ultimate feels a lot more white than green. In general I like this card, though I think it may need to cost 4. The ability to lure every creature and survive is very strong.
Khorla has as well been retweaked a bit.
Khorla, the Pathfinder 2GW
Planeswalker - Khorla
+1: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
0: Until end of turn ~ becomes a 4/4 Legendary Troll Scout creature with Indestructable and “All creatures able to block this creature must do so if able.” Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to ~ this turn.
-6: You get an Emblem with, "Creature you control get +1/+1 and have First Strike. You may play creature cards from your hand as though they have Flash."
3
Priya: I like this card, though it does tread close to Ashiok territory, as well as suffering from the same problems (doing nothing against non-creature decks)
While it does nothing vs creatureless control decks, I dont entirely plan on that method of deckbuilding to exist in this block, and it still mills 4 cards which is considerable since the UB tribe is focused on library depletion. As far as the Ashiok similarities, that is intentional, the backstory is that Priya serves the same Master as Ashiok and they were sent to different planes to amass power. Also, slight number tweaks have happened.
Priya, the Tormentor 2UB
Planeswalker - Priya
+1: Put the top four cards of target opponents library into that players graveyard. Add a loyalty counter to Priya, the Tormentor for each creature card put into a graveyard this way.
-3: Return target creature card in an opponents graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It gains Haste. At the end of turn, exile that creature.
-10: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature card is put into an opponents graveyard from anywhere, that player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.”
4
Raghal: 2/1 dragon warriors are pretty weird. This card is fine, but the ultimate is ridiculously high (and not justifiably so)
the creature tokens are due to the tribe he is affiliated with, but I have tweaked him slightly since posting the original version.
Raghal, the Vanguard 3RG
Planeswalker - Raghal
+2: Put two 1/1 Red and Green Dragon Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield.
-X: Raghal, the Vanguard deals 2 damage to each of up to X target creatures and/or players.
-9: Creatures you control get +X/+X and gain Trample until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.
5
Skarroth: This seems kind of crazy. Xenegos, the Reveler costs 1 more and doesn't gain loyalty for making a 2/2 every turn. This is an insane card advantage engine almost (if not) on par with Liliana of the Veil IMO.
I agreed Skarroth seemed the most powerful of the group, have since tweaked numbers and changed the ultimate.
Skarrotha, the Wrathful 1BR
Planeswalker - Skarrotha
+1: Put a 1/1 Red and Black Demon Soldier creature token with Haste onto the battlefield.
-1: Skarrotha, the Wrathful deals 2 damage to target player, then that player discards a card from his or her hand.
-4: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature you control attacks, it deals 1 damage to target opponent.”
3
Also, what is your opinion of the Mox? no one really seems to be commenting on it.
You may not like hydras, but that doesn't mean WotC isn't going to try using them. It's true hydras don't have a historical precedence, but WotC is trying to set one moving forward because up until now green didn't have a good option. Elementals and Beasts both don't work because the show up at common and don't have a common visual design, which are both key aspects WotC's looking for. (If anything, Wurms were a lot closer than either of those two, but even they are too common).
New Harom shouldn't hit lands, being able to deny mana twice as efficiently as Tamiyo is not a recipe for success.
New Khorla is a bit confused, the old version was very clearly meant for a creature deck, while this one is kind of split.
I'm not sure if you're talking about limited or constructed, but building a format so creature light decks aren't an option isn't necessarily a good idea, and it's also not a good excuse to not think about it during design. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with making a planeswalker have a very specific application and weakness. As I said, Ashiok suffers from the exact same problem and he/she's a fine card, it's just something you have to keep in mind. In fact, having a format that's heavily based on creatures is even more reason to think about this card's balance.
In general the problem with the set idea (IMO) is that it will always feel awkward to have any of these races being small. Yes we see Dragon Hatchlings and Dragon Tokens every now and then, but small demons? small angels? these just seem very out of place compared to what we're used to in magic. As always, you have free reign to break convention in your sets, but when held up next to what we're used to, a 1/1 dragon warrior (that doesn't even fly) is very strange.
The mox is a development puzzle, and I'm not a very good developer. You'd have to playtest it a bit to see how it works within the format.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
This is only true of the past 2-3 blocks/core sets, Hydras are only being pushed so much right now because of Theros and Greek themes. Before Theros, there was maybe 8-10 other Hydras in all of magic, now theres like 20ish. Before then, the most common creature type for a big green fatty would have been either Trolls or Beasts, and Beasts dont seem like a Tribe that would have a civilization.
I don't see where you got the idea that Trolls were even a contender for big green fatty. Only 5 of the 22 green trolls have power greater than 3, 6 if you include Golgari Grave-Troll. There have been more hydras than that in the past 4 years excluding Theros block. Trolls are usually mid sized, they're rarely fatties. Wurms were much more common than trolls, but as MOON-E said show up at all rarities making them less iconic. Hydras seem to be taking the reigns for green fatty.
Theyve only begun to take over within the last few blocks, before RTR block/M13 I dont think there was more than 1 Hydra in a single set. And yes, Trolls werent exactly a good choice, which is why I changed it to a single type for all 5 of them, because I also didnt really like Sphinx at blue either. Due to the apparent Ire drawn by the concept of a BSA reprint, Im thinking of dropping the idea in favor of the stereotypical, "Big Useless yet Flavorful" Mythic Creatures for each color with maybe 1 or 2 rogue Mythics that could potentially see play.
Big and flavorful doesn't necessarily mean useless. In recent memory we've seen Gods, Polukranos, Angel of Serenity, Archangel of Thune, Blood Baron, Obzedat, Stormbreath Dragon, and even Shadowborn Demon all see play as "big, flavorful mythics". Boring is what you want to avoid.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
Jdf, just because there's not much historical precedence for it, doesn't mean it isn't the current status. Also, do note that Hydras have been the 'posterboys' for green all the way back to M10, with Protean Hydra.
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Big and flavorful doesn't necessarily mean useless. In recent memory we've seen Gods, Polukranos, Angel of Serenity, Archangel of Thune, Blood Baron, Obzedat, Stormbreath Dragon, and even Shadowborn Demon all see play as "big, flavorful mythics". Boring is what you want to avoid.
Gods--Maybe 5 of them total will see serious standard play outside of niche 1-ofs, and I am being generous.
Polukranos--Okay you got me there.
Angel of Serenity--One deck even plays her, otherwise shes rather dull and boring.
Archangle of Thune--Same as Serenity, except i think she shes a small bit of play in Modern, dont know, she only just recently started to spike.
Blood Baron--Sideboard card only, obzedat is better before game 2-3.
Obzedat--Best card on this list.
Stormbreath--For a mythic is pretty boring and only sees play because theres nothing better.
Shadowborn Demon--Only sees play in one deck, that is very rogue compared to the big 4
Now, I do agree a few of these are pretty awesome flavorwise, but the majority of them only see play because theyre the best option in the colors for curve toppers, almost none of them are an instant 4 of, "build your deck around me" which is what Mythic Rares should be, not arbitrarily more rare cards that are a majority of the time worse than most regular rares, and even a few uncommons in the same sets.
And as far as hydras being poster boys since M10, Protean wasnt even a Mythic, but even then, there was like 1 Hydra in any given set for all of magic until recently when WotC got all greek because of Theros, Id bet my collection on Hydras dieing off as "greens poster child" as soon as Theros rotates out, and whichever coreset slightly based on it goes away. Quite frankly, theyre dumb, besides Polukranos and Broodmother. If they would have just kept Hydras as a 1-2 per block rare/mythic id have been fine with them, but it seems almost every set in recent history has had 2-3 of them shoved down our throats and theyre getting old. I think JOU has 3 of them alone.
Meh, I am sure I am not the only person who believes Hydras are simply a fad. Long before any Hydra ever existed, Greens "Marquee" creature was stuff like Thorn Elemental and Verdant Force.
I may be old fashioned, but whenever my playgroup starts talking magic theory, and we get to anything involving Green, I think back to the days of being smashed by a Thorn Elemental, and not getting gimped by a gimmicky green fireball.
Until the Theros block, there wasnt even multiple Hydras in any single set. There is no way they can justify abandoning such a huge creature type that has literally been around since the dawn of MtG, for a creature type that is only becoming popular because of the theme of a single block. It would be like them giving up White's Angels for giant 5/5 flying Pegasi just because of one block, then sticking with the Pegasi tribe simply because they can.
Magic past and magic future are different. Absolutely no one is trying to dispute that historically there haven't been a lot of hydras: that's just a fact. What we're saying is that WotC likes hydras, and hydras fulfill a lot of conditions (being visually resonant, not appearing at common, being popular among players) that other creature types like beats and elementals don't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
"Baneslayer Cycle"
Avatar of Determination 3WW
Creature - Avatar
First Strike, Flying, Lifelink, Protection from Demons and from Dragons.
5/5
Avatar of Consumption 3BB
Creature - Avatar
Deathtouch, Trample, Lifelink, Protection from Angels and from Trolls.
5/5
Avatar of Creation 3GG
Creature - Avatar
Hexproof, Trample, Lifelink, Protection from Demons and from Sphinxes.
5/5
Avatar of Logic 3UU
Creature - Avatar
Flash, Flying, Hexproof, Protection from Dragons and from Trolls.
5/5
Avatar of Rage 3RR
Creature - Avatar
First Strike, Flying, Haste, Protection from Angels and from Sphinxes.
5/5
Planeswalkers
Harom, the Ascended 4WU
Planeswalker - Harom
+2: Tap target permanent. It doesn't untap during it's controllers next untap step.
-3: You get an Emblem with, “Creatures cannot attack you or a Planeswalker you control unless they pay 1 for each attacking creature."
-12: Shuffle your hand and graveyard into your library, then draw seven cards. Your life total becomes 20.
4
Khorla, the Pathfinder 1GW
Planeswalker - Khorla
+1: Put a +1/+1 counters on up to one target creature you control. Until the beginning of your next turn, that creature is Indestructable.
0: Until end of turn, ~ becomes a 4/4 Legendary Troll Scout creature with Indestructable and "All creatures able to clock ~ must do so if able." Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to ~ this turn.
-6: You get an Emblem with, "Creatures you control get +2/+2 and have First Strike and Lifelink."
3
Priya, the Tormentor 2UB
Planeswalker - Priya
+1: Put the top four cards of target players library into that players graveyard. Add a loyalty counter to ~ for each Creature card put into a graveyard this way.
-4: Return target creature card in an opponents graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It gains Haste. At the end of turn, exile that creature.
-10: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature card is put into an opponents graveyard from anywhere, that player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.”
5
Raghal, the Vanguard 3RG
Planeswalker - Raghal
+1: Put two 2/1 Red and Green Dragon Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield.
-X: ~ deals 2 damage to each of up to X target creatures and/or players.
-11: Creatures you control get +X/+X and gain Trample until end of turn, where X is equal to the number of creatures you control.
5
Skarroth, the Wrathful 1BR
Planeswalker - Skarroth
+1: Put a 2/2 Red and Black Demon Soldier creature token with Haste onto the battlefield.
-1: ~ deals 2 damage to target player, then that player discards a card from his or her hand.
-3: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a source you control deals damage, you lose two life and draw a card.”
3
Extra Mythic
Prismatic Mox 0
Artifact
~ doesn't untap during your untap step. If ~ if tapped at the beginning of your upkeep, it deals 2 damage to you.
TAP: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
2: Untap ~.
Prismatic Mox is no longer Legendary
Croprazer Dragon 4RR
Creature - Dragon
Flying, Haste, Protection from Angels and from Sphinxes.
R: ~ gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
6/6
Hopeslayer Demon 3BB
Creature - Demon
Provoke, Deathtouch, Lifelink, protection from Angels and from Trolls.
6/6
Huntersbane Troll 2GG
Creature - Troll
Provoke, Trample, Protection from Demons and from Sphinxes.
G: regenerate ~.
4/4
Logicbane Sphinx 2UU
Creature - Sphinx
Protection from Dragons and from Trolls.
U: ~ is unblockable until end of turn.
U: ~ gains Hexproof until end of turn.
1: ~ gets +1/-1 until end of turn.
1: ~ gets -1/+1 until end of turn.
4/4
The cycle is powerful but a little unexciting. The matching protection will lead to a lot difficult standoffs when two creatures can't hurt the other and a race will occue (hint the black will win just about any race). Croprazer is a very dull dragon. Provoke is an ancient mechanic, probably best not used anything with deathtouch.
Sphinx's don't shift forms. You want your blue card to be a shapeshifter or elemental or something. Also it should have flying. So should the demon really.
Six mana walkers have the right to feel really powerful. The +2 is OK, but the emblem ability is too expensive and actually not a lot of fun for anyone. If you fix that, the rest of the card will fall into place - perhaps look for something which syngenesis with the first ability.
Feels too white for a troll. In fact the abilities feel like a good mesh of Gideon/Ajani and Elspeth. I sense the ultimate will be deceptively strong (particularly considering this is only a 3 drop walker).
I actually really like Priya, but it needs to be playtested a lot for balance. That said all I would see happening is the numbers being altered and the abilites kept.
2/1 Dragon Warriors??? I would probably find a single token with this colour combo and tokens are best with square stats if possible. The -X looks ok, ult seems fine, if not for the fact it's a big distance for a walker with a +1.
That is far too good a token for a +1 on a 3 drop. The mini blighting is fairly good. The emblem is gonna do more harm than good. I would look elsewhere for an ultimate.
Extra Mythic
Works, doesn't even need to be legendary IMO.
White = Angel
Blue = Sphinx
Black = Demon
Red = Dragon
Green = Hydra
Also I suggest you loosen up the cycle a little. Strict cycles are far better placed at rare. Mythics are about splashy effects. Which means they get less interesting if you cycle them. It takes something really splashy to be interesting enough for a full cycle. (eg: the Gods in Theros)
For your iconic cycle take a look at the cycle in M14.
Archangel of Thune
Kalonian Hydra
Scourge of Valkas
Shadowborn Demon
Windreader Sphinx
Anyway I'll take a look at the planeswalkers etc another time.
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I agree that after I finished them, a few seemed a little bit underpowered, but for consistencies sake I kept them as is. I did have the idea to not have each one have protection from its enemy colored versions' creature type, but that means I would need to come up with 15 creature types for the cycle, including changing the B and R one to something else. I agree that Provoke is a pretty old mechanic, but it made sense with the Troll, the Demon was more of a "i dont know what else to use" ability. As far as Flying, on the Demon, thats probably an Easy Fix, I just dont want him to turn into a Black Baneslayer. Also agreed about the Sphinx, I came up with the creature types before I did the abilities, it would make much more sense as a Shapeshifter, Elemental, or Illusion.
Also speaking of Baneslayer, if this were a real set, is she weak enough now to warrant a drop to normal Rare? I kept this cycle at Mythic since thats where BSA was originally printed.
I was thinking of changing the +2 to tap up to 2 permanents since at 6 mana he seems a bit lackluster since all it is now is a carbon copy of Tamiyo. The middle ability was mostly a snap decision, because I couldnt think of a good spammable emblem effect for a UW walker on the level of Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's Emblem, also, UW in this set isnt your usual control pair, the Tribe affiliated with them is similar to Bant, and even uses Exalted as their core mechanic, so I might reduce Harom's CMC to 4-5 and make the Emblem just read "Creatures you control have Vigilance. Exalted" spammable, but a minor waste since Vigilance doesnt stack.
Hmm, I agree the abilities are very White, but they match what i thought were the mechanics of the Tribe she is affiliated with. the GW tribe is a race of "Trolls" that live in Tree Villages, similar to the Wookies/Ewoks in Star Wars, and are rather primitive compared to the rest of the Plane's inhabitants. Based slightly on Native American culture.
Youre not the first person to tell me this. Several people elsewhere have mentioned she is the best of the 5, and in the least need of tweaking. I might either bump her ult cost up one, or lower starting loyalty by one, that way you need atleast 2 turns to tick her up before you can ult.
The Dragon Warrior is because of his tribal affiliation, I already thought of changing it to make 3 1/1 Dragon Warriors. Also, the "Dragons" of this plane arent the normal Quadruped Giant Dinosaurs with Wings. The run of the mill "dragon" is a Bipedal humanoid ~8 feet tall, more similar to the Viashino of other sets, but with a few differences. The Minus ability I was debating on changing to a flat -3 or -4 and have it deal 3 to everything, being able to pick off specific targets seems a little oppressive, especially for this color combo. The ult also is a bit high in cost because originally the ult made an Emblem, I intend to change it since its just a one shot.
What would you suggest for the token? I thought about it being Spark Elemental but that may be even better than a 2/2 haste, maybe just a Raging Goblin for balance. The Emblem can be suicidal is you cast him T3 and instantly pop the Emblem, its meant more as a late game ability to keep up your tempo if you get wiped with the opponent at like <10 life. If someone plays him T3 and pops the Emblem, then suicides because they cant deal damage fast enough, they deserved it, because he isnt meant to immediately Emblem. I could probably up the loyalty cost a bit, but the BR tribe is even more aggressive than the Rakdos, and they dont have the patience for such things.
Extra Mythic
I agree as well, I just made it legendary for balance reasons, but the self Ping is strong enough that it balances itself.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is only true of the past 2-3 blocks/core sets, Hydras are only being pushed so much right now because of Theros and Greek themes. Before Theros, there was maybe 8-10 other Hydras in all of magic, now theres like 20ish. Before then, the most common creature type for a big green fatty would have been either Trolls or Beasts, and Beasts dont seem like a Tribe that would have a civilization.
I agree this isnt a normally flavorful or "splashy" cycle, I am only placing them at Mythic since that is where the original Baneslayer Angel was printed, If by todays standards she is worthy of a rarity reduction I would be all over dropping the whole group to Rare, but I feel they might be too powerful as is for that.
What is your opinion on making the 5 of them a cycle of creatures like the Titans from a few years ago? Have them all be a single creature type, Elementals or Avatars as an example, with flavorful abilities similar to BSA's ability list? It would require me to effectively reprint BSA as a different card, but I dont think t would be that bad, since WotC has done renamed reprints in the past.
Also, Hydras will probably be green's iconic moving forward, at least according to MaRo who's usually a good authority on those kinds of things. At very least, if you told me to choose a green iconic, Trolls would be very far down on that list.
Harom the Ascended is very annoying, his emblems are pretty oppressive and hard to fight through. At least you can fight through a bunch of Sorin emblems, but these just slow the game down in a very not-fun way.
Khorla: The ultimate feels a lot more white than green. In general I like this card, though I think it may need to cost 4. The ability to lure every creature and survive is very strong.
Priya: I like this card, though it does tread close to Ashiok territory, as well as suffering from the same problems (doing nothing against non-creature decks)
Raghal: 2/1 dragon warriors are pretty weird. This card is fine, but the ultimate is ridiculously high (and not justifiably so)
Skarroth: This seems kind of crazy. Xenegos, the Reveler costs 1 more and doesn't gain loyalty for making a 2/2 every turn. This is an insane card advantage engine almost (if not) on par with Liliana of the Veil IMO.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Well, I have since reduced the cycle to Rare instead of Mythic, but I do see your point as to them being a little bland. I may end up making them similar to the Lorwyn? cycle of 5cc hybrid guys (Demigod of Revenge and his ilk) but at 3CC or 2CCC and have them flavored after their respective color combo.
This Im unsure about, simple because Im pretty sure during the prerelease hype of Theros he said they were pushing Hydras because of the Greek theme. After the Theros block alone, and all 1 standard playable Hydras, Polukranos(JOU not included in this, since it desnt technically exist yet) Id much rather have a more well known creature type for greens big fatty department, like Elementals or Beasts which were everywhere just a few years ago.
I have retweaked him slightly, since his abilities no longer match the direction I am taking his color's tribe.
Harom, the Ascended 3WU
Planeswalker - Harom
+2: Tap up to two target permanents, they dont untap during their controllers next untap step.
-3: Until end of turn, target creature you control is Unblockable and has Lifelink.
-12: You gain 20 Life. Put your graveyard onto the bottom of your library. Search your library for three cards and put them into your hand, then shuffle your library.
4
Khorla has as well been retweaked a bit.
Khorla, the Pathfinder 2GW
Planeswalker - Khorla
+1: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.
0: Until end of turn ~ becomes a 4/4 Legendary Troll Scout creature with Indestructable and “All creatures able to block this creature must do so if able.” Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to ~ this turn.
-6: You get an Emblem with, "Creature you control get +1/+1 and have First Strike. You may play creature cards from your hand as though they have Flash."
3
While it does nothing vs creatureless control decks, I dont entirely plan on that method of deckbuilding to exist in this block, and it still mills 4 cards which is considerable since the UB tribe is focused on library depletion. As far as the Ashiok similarities, that is intentional, the backstory is that Priya serves the same Master as Ashiok and they were sent to different planes to amass power. Also, slight number tweaks have happened.
Priya, the Tormentor 2UB
Planeswalker - Priya
+1: Put the top four cards of target opponents library into that players graveyard. Add a loyalty counter to Priya, the Tormentor for each creature card put into a graveyard this way.
-3: Return target creature card in an opponents graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It gains Haste. At the end of turn, exile that creature.
-10: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature card is put into an opponents graveyard from anywhere, that player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.”
4
the creature tokens are due to the tribe he is affiliated with, but I have tweaked him slightly since posting the original version.
Raghal, the Vanguard 3RG
Planeswalker - Raghal
+2: Put two 1/1 Red and Green Dragon Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield.
-X: Raghal, the Vanguard deals 2 damage to each of up to X target creatures and/or players.
-9: Creatures you control get +X/+X and gain Trample until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.
5
I agreed Skarroth seemed the most powerful of the group, have since tweaked numbers and changed the ultimate.
Skarrotha, the Wrathful 1BR
Planeswalker - Skarrotha
+1: Put a 1/1 Red and Black Demon Soldier creature token with Haste onto the battlefield.
-1: Skarrotha, the Wrathful deals 2 damage to target player, then that player discards a card from his or her hand.
-4: You get an Emblem with, “Whenever a creature you control attacks, it deals 1 damage to target opponent.”
3
Also, what is your opinion of the Mox? no one really seems to be commenting on it.
New Harom shouldn't hit lands, being able to deny mana twice as efficiently as Tamiyo is not a recipe for success.
New Khorla is a bit confused, the old version was very clearly meant for a creature deck, while this one is kind of split.
I'm not sure if you're talking about limited or constructed, but building a format so creature light decks aren't an option isn't necessarily a good idea, and it's also not a good excuse to not think about it during design. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with making a planeswalker have a very specific application and weakness. As I said, Ashiok suffers from the exact same problem and he/she's a fine card, it's just something you have to keep in mind. In fact, having a format that's heavily based on creatures is even more reason to think about this card's balance.
In general the problem with the set idea (IMO) is that it will always feel awkward to have any of these races being small. Yes we see Dragon Hatchlings and Dragon Tokens every now and then, but small demons? small angels? these just seem very out of place compared to what we're used to in magic. As always, you have free reign to break convention in your sets, but when held up next to what we're used to, a 1/1 dragon warrior (that doesn't even fly) is very strange.
The mox is a development puzzle, and I'm not a very good developer. You'd have to playtest it a bit to see how it works within the format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
I don't see where you got the idea that Trolls were even a contender for big green fatty. Only 5 of the 22 green trolls have power greater than 3, 6 if you include Golgari Grave-Troll. There have been more hydras than that in the past 4 years excluding Theros block. Trolls are usually mid sized, they're rarely fatties. Wurms were much more common than trolls, but as MOON-E said show up at all rarities making them less iconic. Hydras seem to be taking the reigns for green fatty.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Lead Tesla, a community set designed by everyone and led by me, over at Goblin Artisans. Index of articles here!
Gods--Maybe 5 of them total will see serious standard play outside of niche 1-ofs, and I am being generous.
Polukranos--Okay you got me there.
Angel of Serenity--One deck even plays her, otherwise shes rather dull and boring.
Archangle of Thune--Same as Serenity, except i think she shes a small bit of play in Modern, dont know, she only just recently started to spike.
Blood Baron--Sideboard card only, obzedat is better before game 2-3.
Obzedat--Best card on this list.
Stormbreath--For a mythic is pretty boring and only sees play because theres nothing better.
Shadowborn Demon--Only sees play in one deck, that is very rogue compared to the big 4
Now, I do agree a few of these are pretty awesome flavorwise, but the majority of them only see play because theyre the best option in the colors for curve toppers, almost none of them are an instant 4 of, "build your deck around me" which is what Mythic Rares should be, not arbitrarily more rare cards that are a majority of the time worse than most regular rares, and even a few uncommons in the same sets.
And as far as hydras being poster boys since M10, Protean wasnt even a Mythic, but even then, there was like 1 Hydra in any given set for all of magic until recently when WotC got all greek because of Theros, Id bet my collection on Hydras dieing off as "greens poster child" as soon as Theros rotates out, and whichever coreset slightly based on it goes away. Quite frankly, theyre dumb, besides Polukranos and Broodmother. If they would have just kept Hydras as a 1-2 per block rare/mythic id have been fine with them, but it seems almost every set in recent history has had 2-3 of them shoved down our throats and theyre getting old. I think JOU has 3 of them alone.
I may be old fashioned, but whenever my playgroup starts talking magic theory, and we get to anything involving Green, I think back to the days of being smashed by a Thorn Elemental, and not getting gimped by a gimmicky green fireball.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=1&sort=rarity-&type= [Elemental]||subtype= [Elemental]&color= @(%5BG%5D) 44 Unique Green Elementals at Rare/Mythic
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?type= [Hydra]||subtype=+[Hydra]&color=+[G] 13 Unique Green Hydras at Rare/Mythic the first of which was printed in Alara.
Until the Theros block, there wasnt even multiple Hydras in any single set. There is no way they can justify abandoning such a huge creature type that has literally been around since the dawn of MtG, for a creature type that is only becoming popular because of the theme of a single block. It would be like them giving up White's Angels for giant 5/5 flying Pegasi just because of one block, then sticking with the Pegasi tribe simply because they can.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing