So, having seen Dreadbore and Abrupt Decay, I can't help but to think that Dimir should get a cool 2 CMC removal spell too (also maybe Orzhov, but idk). So I decided to make one up. I wanted it to have some coutnerspell use as well, but I wasn't sure if I could make a balanced card that can be both removal and counter. Here's my idea as of now, tell me what you guys think.
Dream of DrowningUB
Instant (R)
The controller of target spell or non-land permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then draws a card.
The "draw a card" doesn't make up for the sheer versatility. Way, way, waaaaay too good, and I'm saying that as a vintage player. Honestly this thing needs to be around 4cc, and even then I'm not sure its kosher.
See: oblation, which isn't a counterspell, 3cc, and draws 2 cards. That being said, this is more WU than UB.
Alright, what if I changed "non-land permanent" to "creature"?
I made it blue/black for flavor reasons, although I suppose that isn't exactly clear. It was supposed to be some kind of spell that could stop someone from casting a spell or just outright take them out of action for a while by scarring them mentally or something.
Alright, what if I changed "non-land permanent" to "creature"?
I made it blue/black for flavor reasons, although I suppose that isn't exactly clear. It was supposed to be some kind of spell that could stop someone from casting a spell or just outright take them out of action for a while by scarring them mentally or something.
still way too good if you don't want to change the mana. its a 2 mana hard counter... and that's just the first half
That comparison is a little tougher because it has a unique restriction and a unique upside. I think we can judge "can't be countered" as essentially free, and the 3 CMC restriction as there to prevent you from gaining too much tempo.
I think the first thing you have to do is choose whether Dimir wants a counter or removal. Given that it already has Psychic Strike, I think removal is where to look, but at that cmc blue gets bounce at best. Can we make 'bounce target nonland permanent" into something blue enough for Dimir?
What about this:
Dream of DrowningUB
Instant
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Its controller puts the top three cards from his or her library into his or her graveyard.
As a happy accident, that still has pretty decent flavor — nightmares are a flavor that mill has sometimes, and being submerged is associated with bounce. Everyone wins!
Any 2 mana counterspell/kill spell will feel strong. Thinking about abrupt decay how about placing a hard limit on CMC...
Dream of Drowning UB
Instant (R)
The controller of target spell or creature with converted mana cost 2 or less shuffles it into his or her library, then draws a card.
Alright, I think I understand a lot better now, and I really like the suggestions! Now, the only problem is how to take them into account. I started off really wanting something that followed the other two spells (2cc rare removal) but with a distinct Dimir feel. I thought, "What better than a removal spell that can double as a counter spell?" It appears, though, that there are very few ways to do this while maintaining the cost I want. My thought process behind putting the card back into the deck was this: "I don't want to put it into the graveyard, it might be too exploitable/retrievable there. Perhaps I'll counter it, but give the other player a chance (however small) to draw right back into it." Now, however, I'm imagining something much more creature-based, for flavor and balancing reasons, something like Remand(for creature spells only)+Unsummon. The flavor here is that the spell is supposed to remove even the threat of a creature, perhaps by subconsciously scaring it out of fighting temporarily by inducing a scarring nightmare. So here's the rough idea of what I have so far:
Dream of Drowning UB
Instant (R)
Return target creature or creature spell to its owner's hand. (I'm not sure, but it seems like it still needs something. Maybe its controller discards a card?)
What if the removal and counter parts became softer?
Piercing DreadUB
Instant (R)
Choose one - Counter target creature spell unless its controller pays 2; or target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn. What doesn't stop you, kills you.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
What if the removal and counter parts became softer?
Piercing DreadUB
Instant (R)
Choose one - Counter target creature spell unless its controller pays 2; or target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn. What doesn't stop you, kills you.
One other thing that I want to mention, I don't want this to turn into another Dimir Charm. I want it to be removal that is just as potent as Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore.
One other thing that I want to mention, I don't want this to turn into another Dimir Charm. I want it to be removal that is just as potent as Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore.
If you don't want it to be dimir charm then you should probably make it a removal spell and not a removal spell and a counter spell.
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"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
He is right. You can't make a removal + counter in one card that doesn't feel like a charm.
Blue is the worst color for making a dual color removal because it's the only color that doesn't destroy permanents. It could be something like this though:
Dimir Removal UB
Instant
Target creature gets -2/-2 until the end of turn.
If target creature dies this turn, draw a card.
Maddening Impasse- UB Instant
Target opponent chooses one - Counter target spell that opponent controls, or return target permanent that opponent controls to its owner's hand. One well-placed choice can incite more madness than even the most cryptic of haunts.
Not sure if this is worded correctly, or if it's too strong for its mana cost.
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Dream of Drowning UB
Instant (R)
The controller of target spell or non-land permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then draws a card.
The "draw a card" doesn't make up for the sheer versatility. Way, way, waaaaay too good, and I'm saying that as a vintage player. Honestly this thing needs to be around 4cc, and even then I'm not sure its kosher.
See: oblation, which isn't a counterspell, 3cc, and draws 2 cards. That being said, this is more WU than UB.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I made it blue/black for flavor reasons, although I suppose that isn't exactly clear. It was supposed to be some kind of spell that could stop someone from casting a spell or just outright take them out of action for a while by scarring them mentally or something.
still way too good if you don't want to change the mana. its a 2 mana hard counter... and that's just the first half
Right... Suppose I changed "spell" to "creature spell". Still OP? And it doesn't take too much away from the flavor...
So let's look at the other two cards we referenced:
Dreadbore is Doom Blade with added functionality in exchange for complicating its casting cost.
Abrupt Decay is comparable to Maelstrom Pulse, Winnow, Vindicate, and Beast Within.
That comparison is a little tougher because it has a unique restriction and a unique upside. I think we can judge "can't be countered" as essentially free, and the 3 CMC restriction as there to prevent you from gaining too much tempo.
I think the first thing you have to do is choose whether Dimir wants a counter or removal. Given that it already has Psychic Strike, I think removal is where to look, but at that cmc blue gets bounce at best. Can we make 'bounce target nonland permanent" into something blue enough for Dimir?
What about this:
Dream of Drowning UB
Instant
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Its controller puts the top three cards from his or her library into his or her graveyard.
As a happy accident, that still has pretty decent flavor — nightmares are a flavor that mill has sometimes, and being submerged is associated with bounce. Everyone wins!
Dream of Drowning UB
Instant (R)
The controller of target spell or creature with converted mana cost 2 or less shuffles it into his or her library, then draws a card.
Dream of Drowning UB
Instant (R)
Return target creature or creature spell to its owner's hand. (I'm not sure, but it seems like it still needs something. Maybe its controller discards a card?)
Art is life itself.
Piercing Dread UB
Instant (R)
Choose one - Counter target creature spell unless its controller pays 2; or target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn.
What doesn't stop you, kills you.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
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Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
One other thing that I want to mention, I don't want this to turn into another Dimir Charm. I want it to be removal that is just as potent as Abrupt Decay or Dreadbore.
If you don't want it to be dimir charm then you should probably make it a removal spell and not a removal spell and a counter spell.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
*Sigh* Yea you're probably right. Oh well.
He is right. You can't make a removal + counter in one card that doesn't feel like a charm.
Blue is the worst color for making a dual color removal because it's the only color that doesn't destroy permanents. It could be something like this though:
Dimir Removal UB
Instant
Target creature gets -2/-2 until the end of turn.
If target creature dies this turn, draw a card.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Instant
Target opponent chooses one - Counter target spell that opponent controls, or return target permanent that opponent controls to its owner's hand.
One well-placed choice can incite more madness than even the most cryptic of haunts.
Not sure if this is worded correctly, or if it's too strong for its mana cost.