Lazav and Zegana

  • #1
    Lazav, the Dimir Mastermind 1UUBB
    Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter (M)
    1UB: Search target player's library for a card and exile it. If that exiled card is a creature, Lazav becomes a copy of that creature, except its name is still Lazav, the Dimir Mastermind and it gains this ability.
    3/4

    Being a shapeshifter, Lazav is inevitably going to have a way of copying creatures. Might as well be in appropriate Dimir fashion.

    Zegana, Prime Speaker 2GGUU
    Legendary Creature - Merfolk Wizard (M)
    Flash
    1U: Choose a counter on target permanent. Put another one of those counters on another target permanent.
    G, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Put a +1/+1 counter on that permanent.
    4/5

    This is an attempt at a variation that combines both Clockspinning and Giant Fan.

    Both these versions of the guild leaders were designed mainly with Commander in mind, but both could see fringe play in Standard as well.
  • #2
    Lazav causes a lot of shuffling, though I like the idea that he embraces many Dimir themes all in one.

    Zegana seems like a super Simic Guildmage, which is fun for toggling things but isn't very exciting to see on a mythic rare legend.
    Gaymer

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  • #3
    The idea of a milling clone is really good, maybe it's ability should exile off the top.
  • #4
    Repeated shuffling doesn't really bother me on mythics, it's just that Bribery isn't really something we want to see repeated. So I dunno. The mana cost makes me feel quite a bit better about it, so it might be okay. I'd make him a 4/3 to make him a little more susceptible to removal.

    I like Zegana, especially the fact that she can put +1/+1 counters on planeswalkers and Loyalty counters on creatures. Gideon Jura loves that. My only thing would be wondering if she's gonna create very complex board states where there are multiple kinds of counters on permanents... Again, it's a mythic, so it's probably okay.
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  • #5
    Isn't Zegana a Vedalken?
  • #6
    I'm not a fan of Zegana's second ability. It's not just narrow, it's almost completely blank in the block she appears in since there are no relevant counters that go on creatures that aren't already +1/+1 counters. That kind of anti-synergy just feels ugly. Yes, I get that she can move loyalty counters onto creatures and then turn them into +1/+1 counters, but... again, narrow and ugly. Try to go for something that has a bit more synergy with other cards in the block.
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  • #7
    Lazav, the Dimir Mastermind - My idea to simplify:

    At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top four(?) cards of each opponent's library. You may have CARDNAME become a copy of a creature card exiled this way until your next turn.

    Zegana, Prime Speaker - Adding to the problems that others have said, when combined with Corpsejack Menace it becomes one mana for additional +1/+1 counters on a creature with a counter of any kind already on it, for example, like Devoted Druid.
  • #8
    Up the cost on Zeganna's ability and make it remove one counter, and add 2 +1/+1 counters. At least that way it's relevant universally.


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  • #9
    Both look like awesome commanders, though Lazav seems sort of broken. Turn 5 cast him. Turn six, you can effectively bribery twice.
  • #10
    Quote from Surging Chaos

    Zegana, Prime Speaker 2GGUU
    Legendary Creature - Merfolk Wizard (M)
    Flash
    1U: Choose a counter on target permanent. Put another one of those counters on another target permanent.
    G, Remove a counter from a permanent you control: Put a +1/+1 counter on that permanent.
    4/5


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  • #11
    Like Felllix said, a repetitive Bribery would be stupid and no fun. I'd try something more like this:
    Lasav, Dimir Mastermind 2UB
    Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter [M]
    At the beginning of your upkeep, Target opponent exiles the top three cards of their library.
    1UB, return target exiled creature card to its owners graveyard: Lasav, Dimir Mastermind becomes a copy of that creature until end of turn.
    2/3
    Wording might be off, but you get the idea.
    I like the concept of Zegana. I don't see her being that strong, P/T wise that is. Merfolks aren't really strong on their own and nor are wizards. I don't like flash being on her(that's just me though). For 1U to give 'walkers loyalty counters would be awsom, especially when Modern becomes a viable format for FNM.
    Other then that, I love the concepts of both, great job.
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  • #12
    How about this take? Critiques are welcome.

    Lazav, Dimir Mastermind :symu::symu::symb::symb:
    Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter Rogue [M]
    You may have Lazav, Dimir Mastermind enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature in a graveyard, except its name is still Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, it's legendary in addition to its other types, and it gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, each opponent puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard" and ":1mana::symu::symb::Exile Lazav, Dimir Mastermind. Return it to the battlefield under your control."
    3/3

    Notes: Now, this may seem very wordy (mainly because the whole thing is done in one sentence-ish), but it's essentially an amalgam of (among creatures) Sakashima the Impostor, Body Double and Argent Sphinx (kind of).
    Overall, though it may appear clunky at first glance, I don't think it's so, for it's Sakashima's oracle text plus one extra ability (milling, for it fits Dimir and it also provides more potential power for this card).
    I think it's a fairly neat execution on how to bring the flavors and mechanics together onto one card. I wanted to find a way to add an ability to exile a card from graveyard to pepper it with more black flavor/mechanic, but I am not really sure how to add another ability onto that without making it a true wall of text on a card.
    Last edited by snowmancer: 12/4/2012 6:32:16 AM
  • #13
    Dimir Doppelganger did changing copies from the graveyard better.
  • #14
    Quote from silvercut
    Dimir Doppelganger did changing copies from the graveyard better.


    Thank you for pointing it out. I realized about the card after I made my post. However, while it does graveyard manipulation quite well on its own, it wasn't quite the kind of graveyard manipulation mechanic I was trying to come up with.

    Mainly, I wanted Lazav's ability to be more powerful. While Doppelganger's ability is fine, once it changes form, it won't be able to gain one of its previous forms (unless there were multiple copies of same creature card) since it exiles targeted cards from the graveyard. Besides, its ETB would not trigger since it's just changing shape while my design of Lazav is meant to abuse ETB trigger multiple times.

    Additionally, seeing how my first design of Lazav turned out, it felt more blue than black (like 7:3), thus I was looking for something to add more black flavor/mechanic to it without complicating its design too much, and graveyard manipulation seemed like a good choice.

    With that, below is what I come up with this time.

    Lazav, Dimir Mastermind :symu::symu::symb::symb:
    Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter Rogue [M]
    You may have Lazav, Dimir Mastermind enter the battlefield as a copy of any creature card in a graveyard, except its name is still Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, it's legendary in addition to its other types, and it gains ":1mana::symu::symb:: Exile up to one target card in a graveyard, then each opponent puts the top three cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. Exile Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, then return it (Lazav) to the battlefield under your control."
    3/3

    Even with the tweak to combine the two previous abilities and the addition of a new ability, I admit that it still does look wordy, but I believe once it's understood, there is no excessive complexity beyond expected degree from a Mythic rare of an expert level set. Also, I feel that it's gotten a bit stronger due to this change since its mill ability can be used multiple times and it now has a graveyard purging ability as well. I think the flavor of Dimir has gotten a bit stronger as well.
  • #15
    Lazav, Intimidating Subtitle UUBB
    Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter
    Whenever Lazav, Intimidating Subtitle enters the battlefield or becomes tapped, search target opponent's library for a card and exile it face down. You may look at that card as long as it remains exiled. Activate an ability of Lazav without paying its activation cost.
    :?mana::symu::symb:: You may turn a face down card exiled with Lazav face up. If it's a creature card, Lazav becomes a copy of it and gains this ability.
    $/#


    The hyphens on face-up ness still confuse me.
    Oh, and I guess Lazav is 2/3 or 3/2. My Spike will hurt if he doesn't have 3 power.

    The Zeganas don't inspire me, but the Lazav's obviously do! Graveyard copying doesn't feel right, no, but the library manipulation needs to be ... manipulation. Conniving. Schemery.
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