Graveyard Protection?

  • #1
    There's creature removal (terror), and creature protection (shroud). There's spell nullification (counterspell), and spell protection (split-second). There's hand disruption (thoughtseize), and hand protection (ignorant bliss). Then comes graveyard removal, which is in most ways, final. Aside from the rotating Pull From Eternity, and Wishes, we don't really have any form of "graveyard protection", which is mildly stupid, in my opinion. Thus, I've made some! Grin

    Keeper of Spirits B
    Legendary Creature - Human Shaman
    As an additional cost to play ~, you lose 3 life.
    As ~ comes into play, put all cards removed from the game from your graveyard into your graveyard.
    Cards in your graveyard may not be targetted by spells or abilities your opponents control.
    1/5


    Respect the Dead BBB
    Enchantment
    As ~ comes into play, choose a player.
    Cards in the chosen player's graveyard cannot be removed from the game.
    Quote from SolonJhee
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  • #2
    I would kill for this in mono-black EDH.

    Man, Ground Seal would be sweet. Too bad I can't splash for it.

    Still, doesn't prevent Tormod's Crypt and the like (Ground Seal that is).

    And then there are the magic words on that guy - OPPONENT'S control. So they are still reanimation targets.

    Respect the Dead I also like a lot. Same thing - Doesn't prevent reanimation but does protect you from yard hate.
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  • #3
    Quote from TheChosen1
    Keeper of Spirits B
    Legendary Creature - Human Shaman
    As an additional cost to play ~, you lose 3 life.
    As ~ comes into play, put all cards removed from the game from your graveyard into your graveyard.
    Cards in your graveyard may not be targetted by spells or abilities your opponents control.
    1/5
    Yeah, that seems just an eensy bit overpowered to me. It would be OK power-wise (though out of flavor) without any of the graveyard-related abilities, as a 1/5 + lose 3 life for B.
  • #4
    Black has the most cards that remove cards in the graveyard from the game, so I think like Groundseal this would fit best in green. And make it symmetrical...

    Tomb Keepers 1G
    Creature -- Human Warrior Monk (U)
    Cards in graveyards can't be removed from the game.
    2/2

    As a side benefit to protecting reanimation, it also stops Ichorid, Psychatog, and delve.

    RANDOM EDIT: Made it a Monk also, because I like the type combination of Warrior Monk.
    Last edited by silvercut: 9/12/2008 10:17:52 PM
  • #5
    Black doesn't defend the dead.

    Black messes with the dead.

    Green seems like a better color.
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  • #6
    Respect the Dead :symb::symb::symb:
    Enchantment
    As ~ comes into play, choose a player.
    Cards in the chosen player's graveyard cannot be removed from the game.
    Quote from silvercut

    Tomb Keepers 1G
    Creature -- Human Warrior Monk (U)
    Cards in graveyards can't be removed from the game.
    2/2


    Yawgmoth's will is broken enough on its own, but it requires a ton of cards to work properly.

    This + dark ritual/lotus petal + ywill makes for infinite storm+mana. No need for elaborate YWill setups.

    And while this stops ichorid (the card), it helps the deck far more than it hinders it, unless this card also stops flashback (in which case, yes, this would nuke ichorid).


    Keeper of Spirits black mana
    Legendary Creature - Human Shaman
    As an additional cost to play ~, you lose 3 life.
    As ~ comes into play, put all cards removed from the game from your graveyard into your graveyard.
    Cards in your graveyard may not be targetted by spells or abilities your opponents control.
    1/5


    You'd have to keep track of which cards were RFG'd from the graveyard vs those RFG'd by other means. This is a tedious amount of bookkeeping, almost having to create a whole seperate RFG zone.

    On graveyard protection in general: I already think that the amount of graveyard hate isn't enough. Its very frustrating to have to sideboard 7+ graveyard hate cards in formats with ichorid and still lose. leyline? tormod's? planar? Wheel of sun and moon? Jotun? Sometimes all of these aren't nearly enough, plus you're exposing yourself to be curb stomped by other decks if you do pack that much graveyard hate. As it is, graveyard hate is almost must in nearly all SBs, sometimes maindeck. Graveyard protection, especially hyper-efficient ones like by the OP's, makes the current situation worse.
    Last edited by mondu_the_fat: 9/14/2008 5:51:27 AM

    "Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn

  • #7
    Tomb Keepers :1mana::symg:
    Creature -- Human Warrior Monk (U)
    Cards in graveyards can't be removed from the game.
    2/2

    For my taste this is one of the best and to be true, if you design a card you never care for type 1 and "y-will", but its true that the ability can make some combos, if they use "remove" as a drawback.

    Maybe you can fix the problem and make it an even stronger "anti-graveyard" card:

    Tombo Keepers :1mana::symg:
    Creature -- Human Warrior Monk (U)
    Cards in graveyards can't be played or removed from the game.
    2/2

    This will even kill Retrace, flashback and "y-will", and this way you can stop most the "combos" i can think of that would abuse the "can't be removed".

    Players will still have the graveyard, so they can still use "genesis" and activated abilities, but it stops a good number of tournament cards, but to compare it to "Yixlid Jailor" it doesnt stop Dredge (Life form the Loam), but it really is good against Ichorid, Psychatog and "other" graveyard abilities, so it for sure a usefull card.


    As a black "idea" you can maybe make a "second" graveyard to protect your cards in:

    Guardian of the Dead 1B
    Creature - Spirit
    If a card would be removed from your graveyard, imprint this card on ~ instead.
    X: Put X cards imprinted on ~ in your graveyard, where X is the number of imprinted cards.
    2/1

    The idea is that it will protect all your graveyard cards and possible put them back for a little 1 mana "bribe" per card, which makes it expensive if you lose "too much" cards.
  • #8
    Guardian of the Dead :1mana::symb:
    Creature - Spirit
    If a card would be removed from your graveyard, imprint this card on ~ instead.
    :xmana:: Put X cards imprinted on ~ in your graveyard, where X is the number of imprinted cards.
    2/1

    The idea is that it will protect all your graveyard cards and possible put them back for a little 1 mana "bribe" per card, which makes it expensive if you lose "too much" cards.

    this works as you explained if one card is removed and then put back, if there are more you'd have to put them back all in one swing.

    1: Put a card imprinted on ~ in your graveyard.
    is what you explained, but that's to combolicous.
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  • #9
    Quote from TheOnlyOne

    For my taste this is one of the best and to be true, if you design a card you never care for type 1 and "y-will", but its true that the ability can make some combos, if they use "remove" as a drawback.


    Looking at a card from all possible angles (and that includes the older formats) lets us see if the card can be broken more thoroughly. Preferably, I'd like it not broken anywhere. Maybe its because I don't have the ego to say "my taste is best and true" and like to think of how other people play.


    Tombo Keepers :1mana::symg:
    Creature -- Human Warrior Monk (U)
    Cards in graveyards can't be played or removed from the game.
    2/2

    it really is good against Ichorid
    Not necessarily. Give it shroud and make it 0 or 1cc. _That's_ good against ichorid. As it is, it is no better than leyline of the void or planar void, and is even worse due to the fact that it is 2cc. Being green alone, its even less flexible than wheel of sun and moon which could at least be used by white. And yet ichorid can still go around those more effective hate cards, which was the very point I was trying to make about the game not needing graveyard protection but needs _effective_ graveyard hate.

    At least, it's a 2/2. Hopefully, it will be enough to kill the ichorid player before he finds a solution for it, but given that this card does nothing to stop dredge's draw/discard engine, I'm willing to bet the dredge player would find a solution faster than they would facing leyline/planar void/whatever.


    Guardian of the Dead 1B
    Creature - Spirit
    If a card would be removed from your graveyard, imprint this card on ~ instead.
    X: Put X cards imprinted on ~ in your graveyard, where X is the number of imprinted cards.
    2/1
    Unlimited flashback for the low cost of 1?
    Last edited by mondu_the_fat: 9/14/2008 10:26:43 AM

    "Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn

  • #10
    flashback removes the card from the stack, it will not be removed "from the graveyard".

    The black one uses X simply because you can remove 6 cards and you must pay 6 mana to get them back, not just 1 to get a special one back, so with a big grave and many removed cards you will not be able to pay the high X cost and so you can't get the cards back, thats the important thing that it isnt just pay 1, but still has the option if only 1 card is removed.


    Against ichorid im sure the green is really good, they can't play flashback -2/-2 and so they need the answer in the hand they can't simply dredge for the flashback card (ofcourse they can use 2 darkblast).

    The fun thing about ichorid is that you can't print a card that hates the grave completly for just 1 or even for nothing and give it something to even survive removal, like a Leyline with Shroud, simply because hating the graveyard can't be too easy if you dont want to shut it off completly, killing a lot more decks that just Ichorid.

    To be true you get a good graveyard hate in nearly every set, ofcourse Ichorid decks can fight them, if they couldnt it would completly kill the deck and every combo that kills turn 1 can win against any hate, so Ichorid is a stupid and unfun deck, simply because "dredge" is a broken mechanic, simply because it doesnt need mana to use it (or at least a swamp or something, like a Snuff out needs a swamp to be pitched).


    Guardian of the Dead :1mana::symb:
    Creature - Spirit
    If a card would be removed from your graveyard, imprint this card on ~ instead.
    :xmana:: Put X cards imprinted on ~ in your graveyard, where X is the number of imprinted cards.
    2/1

    Beside that the card is safe from "normal" mechanics, you can't abuse the effect with flashback, not with Unearth and not with "retrace" or anything like that, the card will just get the graveyard cards back that get removed while it is in play, and if you get a hit from Tormods Crypt with 6+ cards say goodbey for the cards as you will need 6+ mana to get them back.

    But keep trying to find a combo, i couldnt.
  • #11
    Yixlid Arbiter :SymWG:B
    Creature- Zombie Wizard
    Colorless.
    You may reveal your hand, discard all cards not named Yixlid Arbiter from your hand, and pay 2 life instead of paying Yixlid Arbiter's mana cost.
    If a creature would be put into play from a graveyard, return it to its owner's hand instead. For each card put into your hand this way, you lose 2 life.
    If a card in a graveyard would be removed from the game, return it to its owner's hand instead. For each card put into your hand this way, you lose 2 life.
    2/2

    Guardian of the Dead is cool, but tapping out means that your opponent can remove Guardian of the Dead and result in the imprinted cards from the graveyard getting rftg anyways, which is preciesely what it seems like we're trying to avoid here.

    Keeper of Spirits is a rules headache becuase it requires players to remember where cards were removed from the game from. Respect the Dead seems like the most viable card previously posted, but it MUST be played off a Dark Ritual to really be effective.

    Tomb Keepers and Tombo Keepers need flash or shroud, and should cost less or have alternate costs. Graveyard tricks can kill turn 1.

    Yixlid Arbiter would incentivize team play, because you could remove cards in your teammates's graveyard and the cards would return to your teammate's hand without the life-loss drawback triggering.

    It also turns reanimation effects into raise dead effects, so it signifigantly weakens Ichorid, but does not completely hose it out, as the Ichorid player can still get it into play each turn- they just need to pay its mana cost, and have a discard outlet for the other black creature that gets returned to hand when Ichorid would remove it. This card could be a Ichorid enabler in that sense, if one were willing to pay 3B and 4 life per turn for it (the math gets a little better with two Ichorids- 6BB and 4 life for 6 hasty damage each turn), but obviously it's nowhere near the power level Ichorid finds in dedicated dredge decks.

    On top of that, Yixlid Arbiter is a 'free' 2/2, and the alternate cost has synnergy with its abilities. The colorless part is to avoid Coalition Victory/domain combos, as well as to avoid Unmask-style combos. Plus a colorless arbiter is flavorfull. Then I realized that Colorless would make a pretty self-explanatory keyword.

    The really interesting thing about Yixlid Arbiter is that it will make a player want to TARGET HIM OR HERSELF with Tormod's Crypt. That makes the card for me- it turns the crypt from sideboard staple to card-advantage enabler. Being as that many casual players forgo sideboards, this would give those players a serious incentive to run Crypt in the main deck, which would probably win them more games against more competitive players. With green and white in the mix, this card screams "LIFE GAIN". It wants players playing cards to gain a bunch of life (preferably black's Drain Life-type effects, but a simple Stream of Life work also), then playing Yixlid Arbiter and then activating the crypt, targeting self, to get back said life gain cards.

    It might be broken with Yawgmoth's Will, but seriously, what isn't broken with Yawgmoth's Will? Freakin' Flight and Hell Swarm are broken with Yawgmoth's Will. At least it might inspire the mono-black Yawgmth's Will/Tendrils of Agony-combo player to splash a color to pay Yixlid Arbiter's mana cost.
    Last edited by Punkrockanarchymagic: 9/15/2008 2:20:33 AM
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  • #12
    I'm not sure why a seperate RFG zone would be that troublesome, as it has been seen several times (and recently, moreover, with Circu and Jester's Scepter).
    Quote from SolonJhee
    At least I got a Vizzerdrix.
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