I was looking for altered cards on ebay when I stumbled onto the digitally altered cards that are attached. Most of them seem to be coming from alteredprints.com. These are obviously not done with the simple paint and paintbrush, and I believe they have something to do with printing on lithographs. Apparently, since they are done on the actual card and do not modify the weight/thickness, they are tournament legal. Of course, everything comes down to whether the head judge allows it, but I thought that these look pretty cool. I'm interested in whether or not anybody knows how these are made. Feel free to share your thoughts about this style of altering. Thanks!
They also cover the original artwork - which is a requirement now that alters NOT cover the original artwork. I wouldn't allow these in my tournaments; even the ones like Liliana of the Veil which uses the original artwork on the overlay. Different thickness, different weight, different art. No go.
i highly suspect these aren't real volcanic island (or any of the other cards), because the entire card front is printed out and attached to another card. nobody has 200 volcanic islands (the # of his print run) to make these out of. that is the reason i would not allow these in a tournament.
i highly suspect these aren't real volcanic island (or any of the other cards), because the entire card front is printed out and attached to another card. nobody has 200 volcanic islands (the # of his print run) to make these out of. that is the reason i would not allow these in a tournament.
What is the basis for your suspicion? From the youtube link on the seller's ebay, it appears as though the front is attached to the original card with the text box intact. As the person also mentioned directly interacting with Steve Argyle, it seems to add credibility that the cards used are authentic. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPnUo0Ve6w&feature=player_embedded#!
As mentioned by other posters in this thread and in the youtube video itself, the main problem is the thickness, weight, and covering of the original art.
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i highly suspect these aren't real volcanic island (or any of the other cards), because the entire card front is printed out and attached to another card. nobody has 200 volcanic islands (the # of his print run) to make these out of. that is the reason i would not allow these in a tournament.
Just because the print run is 200 does not mean they have 200 ready to ship.
I'm sure they sell one, then buy another MP/SP Revised dual at a lower price and start the process over. They're just claiming to stop at 200.
The creator of these cards could easily make it so that he original artwork is visible. The alter would just simply extend the art, while leaving the picture, textbox, and name/cost visible.
Also, I believe the video shows that the cards are only .4 grams heavier and 1 mm thicker. Who can really notice this difference? After all, altering a card with paint causes an increase in size similar or great to this. Why would digital alters that can prove that it is the originally that card not be allowed while painted alters are?
The creator of these cards could easily make it so that he original artwork is visible. The alter would just simply extend the art, while leaving the picture, textbox, and name/cost visible.
Also, I believe the video shows that the cards are only .4 grams heavier and 1 mm thicker. Who can really notice this difference? After all, altering a card with paint causes an increase in size similar or great to this. Why would digital alters that can prove that it is the originally that card not be allowed while painted alters are?
Some thickness math for you. And 1mm would be an insane difference. 3 cards = ~1mm thick.
A Magic card is 12 mil thick, or 12/1000ths of an inch or 0.3048 of a millimeter. With overlay, the card is now ~15 mil, and that's with him MASHING the tool.
The difference in thickness alone is 20%. You think that card will get cut too more frequently, or you'd be able to determine what card it is without seeing the card face?
And people pay hundreds of dollars for these? I just cannot grasp that.
The thickness difference on these is actually less then that of most acrylic alters, so that is not much of an argument, foil cards are 14 mill thick on average with some sets being thicker. Ditto on the original art thing, outside of international events you are not going to find a judge that cares about that so long as the card is left easily identifiable. I play fully altered cards in SCG, PTQ, and GP events all the time and never had a problem.
I think the main problem with these may be card flexibility, but i haven't held one in person so its hard to say, and potentially card warping as a result.
I would have to admit that they do look snazzy as all hell, but the fact that the it is attached with an adhessive with cutouts rather than a direct on the card print is a bit disappointing, as it will raise a lot of problems later on since glue tends to change over time.
As for identifying these cards as "real" that seems pretty self evident, even if you do not speak english things like the dual lands are still easily identifiable in these alters.
I think it is really awesome and I think people are kinda crazy if they think that .4g and 1mm make a difference. As said, Acrylic alters will have more impact and foils have an impact as well.
The thickness difference on these is actually less then that of most acrylic alters, so that is not much of an argument...
This isn't true. I have one of their cards, and hundreds of acrylic alters, and they're night and day different. Only poor quality alters make a noticeable difference in thickness, and they lose none of their flexibility. These cards feel different (they're quite a bit thicker, actually ...you can tell when you draw it versus a regular card; even through sleeves) and the flexibility is significantly different than a real Magic card. They're not the same as good quality acrylic alters at all.
I think people are kinda crazy if they think that .4g and 1mm make a difference. As said, Acrylic alters will have more impact and foils have an impact as well.
This isn't true. I have one of their cards, and hundreds of acrylic alters, and they're night and day different. Only poor quality alters make a noticeable difference in thickness, and they lose none of their flexibility. These cards feel different (they're quite a bit thicker, actually ...you can tell when you draw it versus a regular card; even through sleeves) and the flexibility is significantly different than a real Magic card. They're not the same as good quality acrylic alters at all.
I'm glad to hear you reinforce this. I've made some of these myself (it isn't difficult) and the difference in thickness and flexibility is obvious, even when sleeved and you're holding two cards sleeve-side up. I won't even use them in EDH because I can feel them & know where they are when I'm shuffling my deck; it's too hard to be honest that way.
Lets all wait for the incomming DCI changes regarding altered cards. It wouldn't be unheard of to see the following in the future.
NO ALTERED CARDS PERIOD in any REL 1+ tournaments.
I mean lets face it. Players are playing for Thousands of dollars (SCG, GP and even PTQ **Any overseas PT plane ticket**.) These cards should NOT be allowed. If there is any possibility that you can tell one card from another via feel or look through a sleeve its 100% cheating...intensional or not
you can often tell where the foils are, especially older ones, as they are thicker and foils in general are prone to bend. but they are all legal, so i guess being able to tell where cards are in your deck isn't a big deal to WotC
You don't have to worry about the guy sitting across from you calling a judge if you take the right steps before the tournament. Go directly to the head judge and ask them if the cards you wish to use are allowed. He should take the card(s) in question, along with a few other cards from your deck and shuffle them in to a small stack and draw through to see if they can find a difference in thickness. As long as they can't find any distinction between the alter and normal cards in your deck then he will probably be fine with it. Every call on an altered card is at the head judges discretion so I would just recommend always asking about ANY card you may have altered, even if the slightest bit, before playing in any competitive event.
Let's not make this another debate or discussion about the legality of altered art cards. There's enough of that around already. This thread should be specifically about these "altered print" cards.
Is Ryan O'Koren the artist for those two pieces, or is it the guy that makes these "altered prints"?
EDIT: Nevermind, looked through his "gallery". Ryan O'Koren's "artwork" is nothing but a photoshop monstrosity. He just collages photos together. How much is this guy ripping off from people?
I think these overlays are disgusting. If anything, because this guy can just mass print them...they should be worth equal or less than the original card's price. While hand painted alters are a testament to the artist's ability and a way to individualize people's cards, I feel like this guy is trying to rebrand wotc's product. I mean, hes quite literally putting a sticker over OC, with his brand/name on it.
I think these overlays are disgusting. If anything, because this guy can just mass print them...they should be worth equal or less than the original card's price. While hand painted alters are a testament to the artist's ability and a way to individualize people's cards, I feel like this guy is trying to rebrand wotc's product. I mean, hes quite literally putting a sticker over OC, with his brand/name on it.
Holy crap. That lily sold for $150?! What a joke. I'd take a hand painted full art alter over these anyways. The foils look gimmicky and too flashy, IMO, almost like those Yu-Gi-Oh! super foil cards.
I don't really have much problem with them, although i am very surprised to see a card that looks so rough sell for so high of a price. Some people have more money than sense i guess. Would be different if it looked better, but its so obviously a poor cut and paste job.
I think these overlays are disgusting. If anything, because this guy can just mass print them...they should be worth equal or less than the original card's price. While hand painted alters are a testament to the artist's ability and a way to individualize people's cards, I feel like this guy is trying to rebrand wotc's product. I mean, hes quite literally putting a sticker over OC, with his brand/name on it.
This really isn't a case of simply printing out a sticker and slapping it on though. First, they have to blank the card while also keeping the textbox and costs preserved, which is quite difficult. Then it requires high quality printers and expensive foil film in addition to the ability to create and format the image. Finally, the creator needs to carefully cut out the print so that the actual card can be seen. I'd guess that the whole process takes around 2-3 hours, plus the equipment which runs more than acrylic paint and sealer. I completely understand your point about regular altering being an art form, and I think that is why people are so against this.
Its my understanding that the foil is opaque so they have no need to erase any portion of the original card, just to cut out the foil sticker with an exacto and apply it to the card face. If I remember right the foil paper is already a sticker which makes the process pretty easy and can work with almost any inkjet printer, which is the reason he is using a sealant as any water would ruin the alter otherwise.
They still turn out looking pretty neat looking, but theres no way card like that vess should be going for that high when the cutting job is so incredibly poor.
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And they are *not* the same weight or thickness. 12mil and 14/15 mil do not the same thickness make.
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What is the basis for your suspicion? From the youtube link on the seller's ebay, it appears as though the front is attached to the original card with the text box intact. As the person also mentioned directly interacting with Steve Argyle, it seems to add credibility that the cards used are authentic. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPnUo0Ve6w&feature=player_embedded#!
Abu Games seems to confirm that the original text box is in fact left intact. Link: http://www.abugames.com/shop.cgi?command=search&edition=268&displaystyle=detail&showall=1
As mentioned by other posters in this thread and in the youtube video itself, the main problem is the thickness, weight, and covering of the original art.
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Just because the print run is 200 does not mean they have 200 ready to ship.
I'm sure they sell one, then buy another MP/SP Revised dual at a lower price and start the process over. They're just claiming to stop at 200.
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Also, I believe the video shows that the cards are only .4 grams heavier and 1 mm thicker. Who can really notice this difference? After all, altering a card with paint causes an increase in size similar or great to this. Why would digital alters that can prove that it is the originally that card not be allowed while painted alters are?
Some thickness math for you. And 1mm would be an insane difference. 3 cards = ~1mm thick.
A Magic card is 12 mil thick, or 12/1000ths of an inch or 0.3048 of a millimeter. With overlay, the card is now ~15 mil, and that's with him MASHING the tool.
The difference in thickness alone is 20%. You think that card will get cut too more frequently, or you'd be able to determine what card it is without seeing the card face?
And people pay hundreds of dollars for these? I just cannot grasp that.
I think the main problem with these may be card flexibility, but i haven't held one in person so its hard to say, and potentially card warping as a result.
I would have to admit that they do look snazzy as all hell, but the fact that the it is attached with an adhessive with cutouts rather than a direct on the card print is a bit disappointing, as it will raise a lot of problems later on since glue tends to change over time.
As for identifying these cards as "real" that seems pretty self evident, even if you do not speak english things like the dual lands are still easily identifiable in these alters.
This isn't true. I have one of their cards, and hundreds of acrylic alters, and they're night and day different. Only poor quality alters make a noticeable difference in thickness, and they lose none of their flexibility. These cards feel different (they're quite a bit thicker, actually ...you can tell when you draw it versus a regular card; even through sleeves) and the flexibility is significantly different than a real Magic card. They're not the same as good quality acrylic alters at all.
Just to clarify.
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This simply isn't true.
I'm glad to hear you reinforce this. I've made some of these myself (it isn't difficult) and the difference in thickness and flexibility is obvious, even when sleeved and you're holding two cards sleeve-side up. I won't even use them in EDH because I can feel them & know where they are when I'm shuffling my deck; it's too hard to be honest that way.
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NO ALTERED CARDS PERIOD in any REL 1+ tournaments.
I mean lets face it. Players are playing for Thousands of dollars (SCG, GP and even PTQ **Any overseas PT plane ticket**.) These cards should NOT be allowed. If there is any possibility that you can tell one card from another via feel or look through a sleeve its 100% cheating...intensional or not
But thats just my take on it
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my EDH deckbox:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6849857#post6849857
elesh norn statue:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=413011
tamiyo figure/bust:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=444503
my etsy dark souls statues page:
www.etsy.com/shop/originalstatues
RRR Buy some of my art! Prints! RRR
EDIT: Nevermind, looked through his "gallery". Ryan O'Koren's "artwork" is nothing but a photoshop monstrosity. He just collages photos together. How much is this guy ripping off from people?
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for example, this guy on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Liliana-of-the-Veil-FOIL-FULL-ART-ALTERED-CARD-mtg-magic-LIMITED-EDITION-12-20-/180895299079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1e333607
Holy crap. That lily sold for $150?! What a joke. I'd take a hand painted full art alter over these anyways. The foils look gimmicky and too flashy, IMO, almost like those Yu-Gi-Oh! super foil cards.
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This really isn't a case of simply printing out a sticker and slapping it on though. First, they have to blank the card while also keeping the textbox and costs preserved, which is quite difficult. Then it requires high quality printers and expensive foil film in addition to the ability to create and format the image. Finally, the creator needs to carefully cut out the print so that the actual card can be seen. I'd guess that the whole process takes around 2-3 hours, plus the equipment which runs more than acrylic paint and sealer. I completely understand your point about regular altering being an art form, and I think that is why people are so against this.
They still turn out looking pretty neat looking, but theres no way card like that vess should be going for that high when the cutting job is so incredibly poor.