This here thread is for you, an MTG salvation user to help in the creation of a popular frame. I'm willing to work hard to bring to light a card frame for Magic that pleases you the user.
How can you help? Describe how you feel the MTG frame should look, use lots of adjectives and references. Please DO NOT argue, as a commonly desired theme should surface among the posts. Additionally, DO NOT post here simply to say, "There's nothing wrong with such and such frame."
Other than that, i hope that this thread can become a resource to those that want to develop a design that appeals to the masses.
I would like the mana symbols on the left, only because I think that it would end up being easier for the majority of the players once they got used to it.
I would also like more room for art, and not to have the new card frame to look too futuristic (FS frames FTL).
I think the P/T box should be emphasized more. The way it's always been has been dull. Something like the FPM Sword and Shield look would be nice, but it needs more.
The artwork I don't think needs to be expanded further then the new 8th frames.
The mana cost should stay in the upper right hand corner. When teaching new people to play they are always confused by newer frames, why confuse people more?
Well, I agree with CrimsonMage that there should be a larger space provided for the artwork (although, I bet people in this section of the forum will tend to be a little more biased for this :p). Maybe you can bump the textbox down to do this, and move the p/t somewhere else.
Oh, maybe you can make the white cards actually white (not having a tan colour as in various past frames). Also, I liked how they used to tint the textboxes the colour of the card, now they don't do that (I think it is most apparent on some red cards).
I don't like the curves they put everywhere. They are on the edge of everything (the sides of the nameboxes, p/t boxes, the place with the card type and set symbol and futureshifted cards). Other than that I can't think of anything really off the top of my head.
I voted for having the mana cost on the left hand side.
It is more convinient when fanning out your hand to see the CMC ( I organize that way, just so I can know what I can cast now).
I think it gives a cool new look to cards as well. Change is always good in magic. That's why every block/set is different.
Also, just a question on a comment that I saw. Why do new people get confused by having the mana cost on the left? They have no background in playing, so they know no different, so what does it matter? If you are saying that because if you had both at the same time, regular frames and new frames (like now) that it would be confusing? Because the same "not knowing any better" follows through here as well.
Just some thoughts and opinions.
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I voted left. I personally think it's more natural when you fan, but then it also in a way punishes the supposed minority who fan the other way. Meh. I agree that it could be confusing, but I also believe that a) Change is always going to happen, it is the nature of the world, and b) Fear of change and refusal to change is the root of all suffering.
I'd say that I really like the futureshifted frame, and while I wouldn't particularly want it for paper magic, for online, it looks pretty damn good. I would like a frame that is modern, while fantasy, but also leaves open room for more sci-fi. Of course, I hope to create a frame like that in the forseeable future, but eh... well...
Oh yes. Art is good. Big art box is good.
Well, listen to me, or don't listen to me (recommended). This will hopefully turn out to be a very nice frame.
I want Mana cost on the right.
More room for art
Smaller Text.
Seperate box for flavor text
opacity in the frame so the art is shown all over the card like in planeswalker
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I voted right because it's intuitive to have card name, then mana cost. It makes you think "CardName costs X mana."
Agreed on that point. Also, a full bleed would be nice, on TOP of the slight opacity in the textbox, and to justify the "lack of color" with less border, the stronger saturation of the Planeshifted borders seemed to work really well. Also, the words were much easier to see with those bright white letters.
Also, I was also a fan of the sword/shield P/T, from way back in starter/portal.
Okay, i'm really liking these points, they're very helpful! Especially ones styled like Masamune.
Now what about shapes? Straight Lines or Curves? Textures or Colors? Border or no? Soft lines [dirty] or smooth and consistent? Color Specific or General Layout? [for all colors] Any Radical ideas you want to share?
And i can understand people's liking for the Sword/Shield watermark, makes it easier to pick out the number you want.
*EDIT*
oh, and spread the word about this thread, the more participating, the better.
Now that I think about it, the top part of the card (where the name and cost is) usually eats up a lot of space... precious space that could go to the art! What if the card name had a smaller box for the text, and the mana symbols were left by themselves outside of the box in the right hand corner? (hopefully that makes sense )
While I like the idea of extended art I have some qualms with it.
1. If it's always used it's not special, thus I vote against the planeswalker type fading.
2. I don't want a larger art box at the expense of text box space. I like flavor text too, I don't want on slightly complex card no flavor text.
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Personaly I realy like the FS frames but it looks like I'm in the minority here. I don't care where the mana symbols are as long as they're placed well (I'm getting fed up of the symbols just stuck in the name box like on "normal" cards) maybe the name box should hold sybols in an FS style way (top bar is a name box with FS style mana symbol holders, mostly on the right so as not to upset older players).
I feel that nothing should be straight on a magic card, no sharp corners all (FS style again, sorry) curves. This includes the black outer border which (the one thing I hate about FS cards) on FS cards has 3 curved corners and 1 pointy. In my mind all 4 should be curved.
I'm also hugely keen on transparency but please, no art visible through the frame, that's such a pain to work with.
I quite like the textures used in FPM's MSE frames.
Oh and no swords/sheilds in the P/T box or else! I do however like FPM's placement of it.
not as curvy as future frames, but 8th are fine IMO. cc on the LEFT, makes it so much easier! How about make all cards like the extended-art in the altered art thread?
Mana cost on the right, but not in the title box, instead have it in a new box designed just for it, perhaps overlayed on top of the art a bit, and make it bigger than the title text.
Make it look more rustic, and have the colors themes represented individually. I'd like to see parchment for the text boxes as well, or something like that.
Perhaps use the old style fonts, to continue with the rustic flavor.
I also like the shield/sword for the power and toughness, but maybe they could be labeled in small, but legible text as power and toughness.
To go a step further, perhaps the casting cost could be labeled as casting cost.
All in all, I play magic because they stick to a fantasy style theme. I don't want the frames not matching that, and being all futuristic. I also don't mind curvy, as long as it stays natural, like tattered parchment curvy.
Thou shalt not have others of the same Legendary before me Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face Thou shalt not change rules in vain Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities Thou shalt not kill mana burn Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards All must be one
I've done a lot of thinking about card frame design in general - 90% of my real world job deals with interface design and efficiently graphically communicating data. If you don't mind, here is a few comments that I might have if this were a "real-world" design.
"So we decided to change the frames..." …Why?
For the purposes of this endeavor, the hard part of the change in design is already accomplished – convincing the higher-ups that there is something wrong with the current design to begin with. However, the question is still very relevant – what needs to be improved on the current template? Let’s break it down.
Is the current template conveying all the information efficiently?
For any card in magic there are a variety of element that’s should be easily distinguished from just glancing at the card. The “gameplay” element that fall into this include: Color, Casting Cost, Card Type, Power, Toughness, Subtypes, Name, and Gametext. From a “collectors” standpoint, there must also be Rarity, Card Number, Artist, Copyright, and an Illustration. For each of these pieces of information it needs to be analyzed weather each piece is currently being given its proper design space. Here’s my attempt at breaking it down:
Color – currently shown by: Frame
I agree with this choice. The color of the card should be represented by the frame. Although I would like to see a greater distinction between frames (not in different layout of elements, just a different style – be it more realistic or just more artistically complex). I would really like to see the frames become more integrated with the artwork – though I wholeheartedly disagree with the “full art” mentality. Using full-art or dropping the opacity on the “core” elements just to see the art behind them is counterintuitive to the basic idea that each design element should take up as much visual balance as the value the information from it contains.
Casting Cost – currently shown by: Top right icon-set
Wizards shot themselves in the foot from the get-go, in that the current restrictions on the placement of mana symbols limits (a) their size – (b) the number of options available and (c) is very difficult to create combinations (see the hybrid symbols). Their placement, however, really has only two options – top left or top right, as that is the most convenient way to view the cost in a fan of cards. Wizard’s choice of balancing the name with the mana cost is something that could be worth revisiting.
Card Type (and subtype) – currently shown by: text in the type line
Given the wide variety of subtypes in magic, it’s almost a given that these have to be conveyed with text. However, the card type *could* potentially be converted into a symbol or (I would prefer) to have both a symbol with some kind of overlaid text. This frees up more textbox room to refer to “All (C) you control” instead of “All creatures you control” (for example)
Power/Toughness – currently shown by: box in the bottom left corner.
While I believe that wizard’s placement is correct (the most important information in the easiest to read location) – I really think that having icons associated with these numbers would greatly help newer players, and if incorporated into the templates well, can be far more interesting than they currently are.
Name – currently shown by: top left text
Not too much of an issue here – name should stay in the easiest to read position within a fan – however there is no rules that say it needs to explicitly be in a box. I’d also like to see stronger typography identification with the brand.
Gametext – currently: in a box, mid center
Do what you want with gametext – just remember that it is (a) the CENTRAL focus once it hits the board (b) needs to allow symbols within its containment area without looking stupid (like most of the textless or full-art frames look once u try to put a few tap and mana symbols in them. The icons start to look like text, or they look like random icons sitting in the middle of text). and the gametext (c) MUST BE EASY TO READ. This is my #1 reason why full-art is absolutely horrible. Take a look at the WWE game’s preshow cards. The text-on-the-image looks terrible when it’s more than a few lines, and is incredibly difficult to read. Even better, take a look at Naruto cards (http://www.xerocreative.com/naruto/images/ninjya.gif ) - I mean I don’t even know where to begin looking at this card. This isn’t as extreme as I’ve seen here on the forums. But here is a tip (err, or rant). I shouldn’t have to pick out words formed by letters that are stroked together with an outer glow, a drop shadow and a freaking outer blur. NO. Put down the Photoshop palette and step away from the keyboard. Return when you have a sense of design that doesn’t involve checking every option in the blending-mode palette or being a filter-*****.
Rarity, Card Number, Artist, Copyright – currently: a bunch of places
These are all non-critical. You should have a sense of their placement (particularly Rarity) within your design, but honestly – I don’t expect to see much of a change – toss it in the bottom, where all the other irrelevant non-gameplay info goes. Hmm…think about that in concerns to power and toughness…
Just a few thoughts to hopefully spur your discussion...
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How can you help? Describe how you feel the MTG frame should look, use lots of adjectives and references. Please DO NOT argue, as a commonly desired theme should surface among the posts. Additionally, DO NOT post here simply to say, "There's nothing wrong with such and such frame."
Other than that, i hope that this thread can become a resource to those that want to develop a design that appeals to the masses.
~Center of the Gaming Universe~
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I would also like more room for art, and not to have the new card frame to look too futuristic (FS frames FTL).
The artwork I don't think needs to be expanded further then the new 8th frames.
The mana cost should stay in the upper right hand corner. When teaching new people to play they are always confused by newer frames, why confuse people more?
That's all for now off the top of my head.
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Oh, maybe you can make the white cards actually white (not having a tan colour as in various past frames). Also, I liked how they used to tint the textboxes the colour of the card, now they don't do that (I think it is most apparent on some red cards).
I don't like the curves they put everywhere. They are on the edge of everything (the sides of the nameboxes, p/t boxes, the place with the card type and set symbol and futureshifted cards). Other than that I can't think of anything really off the top of my head.
Thanks to spiderboy4 for the banner and avatar!
Also, it would be nice to have a good clear type line. Those are quite important to the game.
As for the Left Side, Right Side, i'll have to start a poll.
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It is more convinient when fanning out your hand to see the CMC ( I organize that way, just so I can know what I can cast now).
I think it gives a cool new look to cards as well. Change is always good in magic. That's why every block/set is different.
Also, just a question on a comment that I saw. Why do new people get confused by having the mana cost on the left? They have no background in playing, so they know no different, so what does it matter? If you are saying that because if you had both at the same time, regular frames and new frames (like now) that it would be confusing? Because the same "not knowing any better" follows through here as well.
Just some thoughts and opinions.
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I'd say that I really like the futureshifted frame, and while I wouldn't particularly want it for paper magic, for online, it looks pretty damn good. I would like a frame that is modern, while fantasy, but also leaves open room for more sci-fi. Of course, I hope to create a frame like that in the forseeable future, but eh... well...
Oh yes. Art is good. Big art box is good.
Well, listen to me, or don't listen to me (recommended). This will hopefully turn out to be a very nice frame.
Bored? Watch this.
More room for art
Smaller Text.
Seperate box for flavor text
opacity in the frame so the art is shown all over the card like in planeswalker
That's a good point.
I voted right because it's intuitive to have card name, then mana cost. It makes you think "CardName costs X mana."
Rasputin Dreamweaver EDH
Agreed on that point. Also, a full bleed would be nice, on TOP of the slight opacity in the textbox, and to justify the "lack of color" with less border, the stronger saturation of the Planeshifted borders seemed to work really well. Also, the words were much easier to see with those bright white letters.
Also, I was also a fan of the sword/shield P/T, from way back in starter/portal.
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Now what about shapes? Straight Lines or Curves? Textures or Colors? Border or no? Soft lines [dirty] or smooth and consistent? Color Specific or General Layout? [for all colors] Any Radical ideas you want to share?
And i can understand people's liking for the Sword/Shield watermark, makes it easier to pick out the number you want.
*EDIT*
oh, and spread the word about this thread, the more participating, the better.
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1. If it's always used it's not special, thus I vote against the planeswalker type fading.
2. I don't want a larger art box at the expense of text box space. I like flavor text too, I don't want on slightly complex card no flavor text.
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I feel that nothing should be straight on a magic card, no sharp corners all (FS style again, sorry) curves. This includes the black outer border which (the one thing I hate about FS cards) on FS cards has 3 curved corners and 1 pointy. In my mind all 4 should be curved.
I'm also hugely keen on transparency but please, no art visible through the frame, that's such a pain to work with.
I quite like the textures used in FPM's MSE frames.
Oh and no swords/sheilds in the P/T box or else! I do however like FPM's placement of it.
Mana cost on the right, but not in the title box, instead have it in a new box designed just for it, perhaps overlayed on top of the art a bit, and make it bigger than the title text.
Make it look more rustic, and have the colors themes represented individually. I'd like to see parchment for the text boxes as well, or something like that.
Perhaps use the old style fonts, to continue with the rustic flavor.
I also like the shield/sword for the power and toughness, but maybe they could be labeled in small, but legible text as power and toughness.
To go a step further, perhaps the casting cost could be labeled as casting cost.
All in all, I play magic because they stick to a fantasy style theme. I don't want the frames not matching that, and being all futuristic. I also don't mind curvy, as long as it stays natural, like tattered parchment curvy.
Thou shalt not frame images with the modern card face
Thou shalt not change rules in vain
Remember the Reserved List to keep it holy
Honor thy Slivers and the symmetry of their abilities
Thou shalt not kill mana burn
Thou shalt not sacrifice depth for accessibility
Thou shalt not steal combat damage from the stack
Thou shalt tell a story through thy cards
All must be one
"So we decided to change the frames..." …Why?
For the purposes of this endeavor, the hard part of the change in design is already accomplished – convincing the higher-ups that there is something wrong with the current design to begin with. However, the question is still very relevant – what needs to be improved on the current template? Let’s break it down.
Is the current template conveying all the information efficiently?
For any card in magic there are a variety of element that’s should be easily distinguished from just glancing at the card. The “gameplay” element that fall into this include: Color, Casting Cost, Card Type, Power, Toughness, Subtypes, Name, and Gametext. From a “collectors” standpoint, there must also be Rarity, Card Number, Artist, Copyright, and an Illustration. For each of these pieces of information it needs to be analyzed weather each piece is currently being given its proper design space. Here’s my attempt at breaking it down:
Color – currently shown by: Frame
I agree with this choice. The color of the card should be represented by the frame. Although I would like to see a greater distinction between frames (not in different layout of elements, just a different style – be it more realistic or just more artistically complex). I would really like to see the frames become more integrated with the artwork – though I wholeheartedly disagree with the “full art” mentality. Using full-art or dropping the opacity on the “core” elements just to see the art behind them is counterintuitive to the basic idea that each design element should take up as much visual balance as the value the information from it contains.
Casting Cost – currently shown by: Top right icon-set
Wizards shot themselves in the foot from the get-go, in that the current restrictions on the placement of mana symbols limits (a) their size – (b) the number of options available and (c) is very difficult to create combinations (see the hybrid symbols). Their placement, however, really has only two options – top left or top right, as that is the most convenient way to view the cost in a fan of cards. Wizard’s choice of balancing the name with the mana cost is something that could be worth revisiting.
Card Type (and subtype) – currently shown by: text in the type line
Given the wide variety of subtypes in magic, it’s almost a given that these have to be conveyed with text. However, the card type *could* potentially be converted into a symbol or (I would prefer) to have both a symbol with some kind of overlaid text. This frees up more textbox room to refer to “All (C) you control” instead of “All creatures you control” (for example)
Power/Toughness – currently shown by: box in the bottom left corner.
While I believe that wizard’s placement is correct (the most important information in the easiest to read location) – I really think that having icons associated with these numbers would greatly help newer players, and if incorporated into the templates well, can be far more interesting than they currently are.
Name – currently shown by: top left text
Not too much of an issue here – name should stay in the easiest to read position within a fan – however there is no rules that say it needs to explicitly be in a box. I’d also like to see stronger typography identification with the brand.
Gametext – currently: in a box, mid center
Do what you want with gametext – just remember that it is (a) the CENTRAL focus once it hits the board (b) needs to allow symbols within its containment area without looking stupid (like most of the textless or full-art frames look once u try to put a few tap and mana symbols in them. The icons start to look like text, or they look like random icons sitting in the middle of text). and the gametext (c) MUST BE EASY TO READ. This is my #1 reason why full-art is absolutely horrible. Take a look at the WWE game’s preshow cards. The text-on-the-image looks terrible when it’s more than a few lines, and is incredibly difficult to read. Even better, take a look at Naruto cards (http://www.xerocreative.com/naruto/images/ninjya.gif ) - I mean I don’t even know where to begin looking at this card. This isn’t as extreme as I’ve seen here on the forums. But here is a tip (err, or rant). I shouldn’t have to pick out words formed by letters that are stroked together with an outer glow, a drop shadow and a freaking outer blur. NO. Put down the Photoshop palette and step away from the keyboard. Return when you have a sense of design that doesn’t involve checking every option in the blending-mode palette or being a filter-*****.
Rarity, Card Number, Artist, Copyright – currently: a bunch of places
These are all non-critical. You should have a sense of their placement (particularly Rarity) within your design, but honestly – I don’t expect to see much of a change – toss it in the bottom, where all the other irrelevant non-gameplay info goes. Hmm…think about that in concerns to power and toughness…
Just a few thoughts to hopefully spur your discussion...