OK folks, its time for another riveting VERSUS FORUM VERSUS THREAD OF GREAT VERISIMILITUDE
In one Corner, we have Goku and in the other we have any given schmuck, doesn't really matter for the purpose of this thread so let's say its Luke Skywalker, maybe Merlin, I dunno how about Vegeta. Yeah. Let's use Vegeta. Goku vs Vegeta, who wins? That's effin brilliant aint it? GOKU VS VEGETA HELL YEAH.
Wait, thats boring, we all know how that plays out though so here whats different this time. Vegeta has Plot Armor and Goku doesn't. Mods should totes change this to "GOKU VS VEGETA WITH PLOT ARMOR" because the only way to describe anything involving DBZ is with ALL CAPS RAHRASKDASDKASHDASASDA.
Discuss, feel free to choose any time the two of them were around at the same time except fusions because duh. IE choose the same timestamp.
I'll wait until other people have said things before chiming in with my own ideas
this kinda reminds me of an old thread titled "batman VS God" or something like that, designed to get people to stop posting Batman related threads here... Is this your intent? If so, I approve. FAR too much fanboyism going on there.
SO! this is how it goes down:
Vegeta convinces Bulma that Goku is completely inept, and Bulma creates a modified version of the virus that almost kills Goku during the Android Saga. Of course, Bulma designs this new virus to do two things: act instantly, and only affect Goku's DNA signature. BUT! anyone can be a carrier. So, Vegeta infects himself with the virus, confronts Goku, and kills him. Of course, they gather the Dragon Balls to revive Goku, but, once he comes back to life, he is infected by the virus again and promptly dies... again. Thus ensuring that he could never be brought back to life.
A year passes, and Vegeta gathers the Dragon Balls and wishes for Goku to remain in heaven/hell wherever he is. Boom. Vegeta wins.
Well, technically, that was my intent with the "Goku vs 7 Kittens who can summon Shazam" thread, but this one has that purpose as well as a greater purpose for people to think about plot armor and how the strengths of characters are highly dependent on the stories involved. Batman, for example, is nothing without his plot armor. Dude dies the first week. Probably dies during his years away from gotham training.
Goku, likewise, as is the case with plot armor always seems to find a way to do something, that last gasp of strength. Why didn't raditz have a flashback to something that someone had casually mentioned and remember he could fly and evade the beam cannon? Where were Vegeta's wells of untapped strength from his years, decades even, of fighting? Where are the coincidences like randomly crashing on a planet full of people who could teach him special techniques that could happen to other characters?
In the story in which Vegeta has plot armor when his tail is cut he fights some sort of defensive battle and, I dunno, steals a senzu bean. Maybe he remembers a legend of a way for Saiyans to transform without a tail. Maybe, like with main characters, he just finds that he can keep fighting as long as the plot demands. Who knows? Point is that, in many a story, its the plot armor thats the big reason for people being alive unless its their specified time to die. That why Krillin dies to frieza. Toriyama wanted to end his comic and he was doing it with a bang. Krillin, a main cast member, had survived things he shouldn't have and that lasted until the plot let him die. Likewise, Goku survived as long as the plot demanded and since this was DBZ, even if a person dies they will find a reason for them to be alive again. Not strong enough? An excuse will be found for them to become stronger.
Can't beat someone? Become a super saiyan! Can't beat someone? Go super saiyan 2: electric boogaloo. Can't beat someone? Time traveller comes back with explicit goal of keeping you alive. Can't beat someone? Go train for a year inside a magical box that, for some reason, can only be used once or twice or something.
Plot armor dependent series, like DBZ became, turn into a series of asspulls. Particularly since Toriyama didn't really want to keep going and only did it because his bosses were like "WE HAVE ALL THE MONEY NOW BUT BRING US MORE" and while it kind of created the Progressive Power Principle series and captured the hearts and minds of a hell of a lot of people, the tropes involved are a weakness against characters defined by their strengths as opposed to characters defined by increasing their strengths. Particularly since all of the plot convenience involved in reaching those early levels.
Goku overcomes any villian with plot armor because he's the hero in most cases. If not Goku, than another hero with the plot armor modifier, because it's the Swiss army knife of abilities and allows you to overcome the impossible. Goku can then beat anyone given enough episodes. I totally thought the 7 kittens had Goku anyway.
Well, thats the rub though. Being the hero, the designated hero anyway, in a story gives one plot armor. It would be a pretty boring action movie where the first time that the main character should have died actually does. What you're basically arguing regarding villains with plot armor is that it simply isn't time for him to win yet or, in this case, Goku has stronger plot armor. In my example he doesn't get to play that card.
And you will notice that Supes didn't use half of his powers either.
So there are two versions of Superman>
***** supes with dumb writers. He can't lose because his only power is "I'm so strong I don't make sense."
And other supes with heat vision, artic breath, super strength, toughness, speed and so on.
I'd say to never use the first version in anything because he is broken (same broken as just "does not work"). I'd argue that Goku vs Supes should use the second one to have a valid discussion.
And "Supes didn't use half his powers either" is in now way similar to what I said. This would be the equivalent of limiting the fight to "Original" superman vs SS4 Goku. They literally made goku weaker than someone you see on the SECOND episode (and I did not mean figuratively, DB goku loses to Vegeta). Saying supes can't fly and can run really fast/jump high instead is likely to make everyone call foul. The other way around has always been ok.
The problem with supes is how comic books are made. Goku had 1 author. He is consistent. Supes goes from losing to a non powered human in a wrestling match to "I can flex my muscles so hard that you can taste purple" at different times due to tons of inconsistencies. You need to find one that everyone can agree on. I think anyone that isn't a supes fanboy wouldn't agree to the "I'm so tough that I can make my atoms stronger than other atoms".
Goku has instant teleportation. One of the few powers Superman does not have. He could probably teleport to Krypton, grab some kryptonite and win that way.
Except, this time Vegeta has Plot Armor. Take of that what you will, try to get over your fanboyism, and actually have a discussion. Please. Otherwise, I might go w/ what I said earlier in the thread, just so that we can be done with it.
Goku without plot armor is not Goku. The definition of his character is that he is always able to get stronger if the situation demands it and if he trains hard enough for it.
Vegetta would probably win because anyone with plot armor wins. And his actually a good contestant.
But a sequel would naturally form and Goku would win in this sequel. Either this or 1+1 wouldn't be 2 and computers wouldn't work, meaning this entire threat wouldn't exist but if we are here it means Goku wins in the end
In one Corner, we have Goku and in the other we have any given schmuck, doesn't really matter for the purpose of this thread so let's say its Luke Skywalker, maybe Merlin, I dunno how about Vegeta. Yeah. Let's use Vegeta. Goku vs Vegeta, who wins? That's effin brilliant aint it? GOKU VS VEGETA HELL YEAH.
Wait, thats boring, we all know how that plays out though so here whats different this time. Vegeta has Plot Armor and Goku doesn't. Mods should totes change this to "GOKU VS VEGETA WITH PLOT ARMOR" because the only way to describe anything involving DBZ is with ALL CAPS RAHRASKDASDKASHDASASDA.
Discuss, feel free to choose any time the two of them were around at the same time except fusions because duh. IE choose the same timestamp.
I'll wait until other people have said things before chiming in with my own ideas
SO! this is how it goes down:
Vegeta convinces Bulma that Goku is completely inept, and Bulma creates a modified version of the virus that almost kills Goku during the Android Saga. Of course, Bulma designs this new virus to do two things: act instantly, and only affect Goku's DNA signature. BUT! anyone can be a carrier. So, Vegeta infects himself with the virus, confronts Goku, and kills him. Of course, they gather the Dragon Balls to revive Goku, but, once he comes back to life, he is infected by the virus again and promptly dies... again. Thus ensuring that he could never be brought back to life.
A year passes, and Vegeta gathers the Dragon Balls and wishes for Goku to remain in heaven/hell wherever he is. Boom. Vegeta wins.
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
Goku, likewise, as is the case with plot armor always seems to find a way to do something, that last gasp of strength. Why didn't raditz have a flashback to something that someone had casually mentioned and remember he could fly and evade the beam cannon? Where were Vegeta's wells of untapped strength from his years, decades even, of fighting? Where are the coincidences like randomly crashing on a planet full of people who could teach him special techniques that could happen to other characters?
In the story in which Vegeta has plot armor when his tail is cut he fights some sort of defensive battle and, I dunno, steals a senzu bean. Maybe he remembers a legend of a way for Saiyans to transform without a tail. Maybe, like with main characters, he just finds that he can keep fighting as long as the plot demands. Who knows? Point is that, in many a story, its the plot armor thats the big reason for people being alive unless its their specified time to die. That why Krillin dies to frieza. Toriyama wanted to end his comic and he was doing it with a bang. Krillin, a main cast member, had survived things he shouldn't have and that lasted until the plot let him die. Likewise, Goku survived as long as the plot demanded and since this was DBZ, even if a person dies they will find a reason for them to be alive again. Not strong enough? An excuse will be found for them to become stronger.
Can't beat someone? Become a super saiyan! Can't beat someone? Go super saiyan 2: electric boogaloo. Can't beat someone? Time traveller comes back with explicit goal of keeping you alive. Can't beat someone? Go train for a year inside a magical box that, for some reason, can only be used once or twice or something.
Plot armor dependent series, like DBZ became, turn into a series of asspulls. Particularly since Toriyama didn't really want to keep going and only did it because his bosses were like "WE HAVE ALL THE MONEY NOW BUT BRING US MORE" and while it kind of created the Progressive Power Principle series and captured the hearts and minds of a hell of a lot of people, the tropes involved are a weakness against characters defined by their strengths as opposed to characters defined by increasing their strengths. Particularly since all of the plot convenience involved in reaching those early levels.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
And yeah, the cute widdle kitties totes got him.
Death Battle did an episode of Goku Vs Superman.
And everyone who didn't want goku to win realised that it was bogus.
I'll just point out that Goku used in deathbattle is weaker than vegeta when he arrives on earth.
Goku in Death Battle can't output enough energy to destroy the planet. Vegeta could at episode 2 of dbz (his first appearance).
Now, this thread reeks of "hidden" agenda.
Either way, plot armor > all. Vegeta takes this.
And you will notice that Supes didn't use half of his powers either.
So there are two versions of Superman>
***** supes with dumb writers. He can't lose because his only power is "I'm so strong I don't make sense."
And other supes with heat vision, artic breath, super strength, toughness, speed and so on.
I'd say to never use the first version in anything because he is broken (same broken as just "does not work"). I'd argue that Goku vs Supes should use the second one to have a valid discussion.
And "Supes didn't use half his powers either" is in now way similar to what I said. This would be the equivalent of limiting the fight to "Original" superman vs SS4 Goku. They literally made goku weaker than someone you see on the SECOND episode (and I did not mean figuratively, DB goku loses to Vegeta). Saying supes can't fly and can run really fast/jump high instead is likely to make everyone call foul. The other way around has always been ok.
The problem with supes is how comic books are made. Goku had 1 author. He is consistent. Supes goes from losing to a non powered human in a wrestling match to "I can flex my muscles so hard that you can taste purple" at different times due to tons of inconsistencies. You need to find one that everyone can agree on. I think anyone that isn't a supes fanboy wouldn't agree to the "I'm so tough that I can make my atoms stronger than other atoms".
And that's not even counting anything else Supes can do.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
"normality is a paved road: it is comfortable to walk, but no flowers grow there."
-Vincent Van Gogh
things I hate:
1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
Read Walker Boh's comment.
Do you know what plot armor is?
Vegetta would probably win because anyone with plot armor wins. And his actually a good contestant.
But a sequel would naturally form and Goku would win in this sequel. Either this or 1+1 wouldn't be 2 and computers wouldn't work, meaning this entire threat wouldn't exist but if we are here it means Goku wins in the end
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1. The person with the stronger plot armor wins.
or
2. THey cancel each other out and the one with the higher power level wins.
Goku beats Vegeta in both cases.