MTG Salvation

Quote from draftguy2

Sorry Poreing as much as I would LOVE to agree with you, Mewtwo is out of his league here he is a distraction at best, Arceus can be captured by a 10 year old..... the GOD of your universe can be captured by a 10 year old let that link in....

I'm pretty sure there are 10 year olds out there who have beaten the Devil May Cry and Bayonetta video games. Age is not indicative of skill.

Dante can fly in Devil Trigger. Dunno about Bayonetta. But they both have projectile weapons.

Quote from Poring

I'm pretty sure there are 10 year olds out there who have beaten the Devil May Cry and Bayonetta video games. Age is not indicative of skill.

yes but 10 year olds are not the protagonist OF the game.... which in pokemon they are, you start your pokemon journey when your 10 years old.

Quote from draftguy2

yes but 10 year olds are not the protagonist OF the game.... which in pokemon they are, you start your pokemon journey when your 10 years old.

Sure, but when you say "the God of your universe can be captured by a 10 year old", you fail to mention the accomplishments of said child, and make it sound like any nameless character in the Pokémon universe can capture God on a whim.

By the time you can capture Arceus (or capture the strongest Pokémon of any game, for that matter), you've managed to:

• Stop an entire criminal organization from taking over the region
• Prevent a global catastrophe and avert a potential apocalypse
• Defeat 8 elemental specialists of a regionally recognized organization
• Claimed the title of "Master" from 4 elemental specialists of an internationally recognized organization

At the minimum, excluding any other side quests or feats in Pokémon Contests or other competitions.

Which compels me to believe that said 10 year old is a child prodigy. In video games, this is no strange feat: Cloud Strife was 15 when he began his career in Crisis Core, and thus around that age when he defeated Sephiroth the first time. Sora is merely 14 years old when he saved the universe in the first Kingdom Hearts game. The Digidestined were all from the ages 8-11 when they saved two worlds from impending doom in Digimon Adventure. Harry Potter and crew were just turning 12 when he defeated Voldemort the second time (if you count as a baby being the first time) and got past the traps protecting the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone.

I could go on, but by now you're rolling your eyes and probably saying "because plot". Fair enough. But in real life, we have people like Amadeus Mozart who began composing at the age of 5, and this 5 year old Asian child who can play classical works that even I, a relatively above average stage singer and self-taught keyboard performer, can't hope to master unless given years of practice. A cursory search on YouTube reveals that there are many child prodigies, across multiple fields, who exist not just in fiction but in our universe as well, so who is to say that our 10-year-old Pokémon Master isn't simply a gifted battler and tamer of these wild, strange, elemental creatures?

Thus, I don't really care how old (or in this case, how young) the protagonist is; what matters is skill. Phrasing "God was captured by a 10 year old" is a rather unfair evaluation of the skills of both said God and the 10 year old. If you started the game capturing a level 100 Arceus, then it would be a different story (this would mean that any average person could capture God, but that's ridiculous), but because getting to Arceus requires actually beating the storyline, it seems only logical to assume that your character's power level developed since you get your first level 5 from the good professor.

TLDR version of my post: Age, among other qualities, should not inherently dictate anyone's ability to do great things.

I will rephrase this, pokemon seem incapable of harming humans. even late in his joureny from the beggining Pikachu tried to electrcute ash and failed to do any lasting damage, we have seen people HUGGING magmars like hugging raw lava, we have seen ash take a hyper beam to the back very rarely do pokemon do any real damage at all or its very minor and quickly healer, they can't really damage anyone other than other pokemon.

Quote from Plaguefather

Actually, that's thanks to the biggest Plot-armor in the game, The Master Ball...

No pokemon, I repeat, NO Pokémon can break free of the Master Ball...

There's a reason you only get one in the game...

Heck, I took it as a challenge to NOT use the Master Ball, but to weaken those pokemon to capture them with regular pokeballs....lol.

Heck, I even caught Emerald Version Rayquaza with a regular Pokeball...

Either Way, Mewtwo is not a pushover here... He is the strongest Psychic Pokémon after all...

Plus, they're fighting in the Maelstrom, Bolas has already been in that position before, You don't think he's going to recognize that and not try to regain his former power?

Bolas is definitely the one to look out for here... His power would constantly grow from the start of the battle, plus, Can Dante and Bayonetta fly? If not, they're going to have a hard time getting into close combat, as Bolas and Mewtwo can both levitate/fly. There are very few level platforms it seems in the Maelstrom... So with Dante effectively not able to decisively get into close combat, that means he's going to be on the defensive here. One wrong step and he falls into the vortex of mana and gets shredded by the power of the maelstrom... Bolas is going to be able to channel that mana to use some VERY powerful magic here... The only reason he failed last time was because of Ajani's plot armor...

I don't like admitting it, but the ground-traveling Dante/Bayonetta are a bit out of their element here.

That's why I'm putting my vote behind Team : Psychic Monsters.

See, what worries me here is that you're posing a VERY fundamental question about the nature of CSK's abilities, then casting your vote for the other team. A big chunk of your post is writing off Dante because he can't fly when he, in fact, can, so long as he's in Devil mode. In my opinion, the two of them could absolutely wreck Mewtwo in moments, then Dante could go to Devil Mode and just two vs. one Bolas into the ground.

Even if he couldn't, the nature of Bayonetta's magic would provide an extremely easy way for both of them to get around (at extraordinary speeds) off the ground, as creating pathways and ramps with her hair magic is a very simple trick for her. Most of your argument seems to be about a lack of mobility and, in this fight, that's not actually a problem at all.

As for defending Mewtwo via the Master Ball argument...I don't know about you, but I was 8 when I first caught Mewtwo and I didn't use a Master Ball

The manga vs. the anime is a very important distinction where the impressiveness of said ten year old is concerned. Ash is good kid, but he's not very serious and is kind of an idiot. Red, on the other hand, is a prodigy of a ten year old who becomes the best trainer in the world very young. Ash doesn't even come close to him. But what's important is that neither of them caught Mewtwo nor ever really even beat him. They befriended him, though.

I still maintain Mewtwo's uselessness; seriously, in one of the movies he gets taken down by floaty robots. LITTLE FLOATY ROBOTS WITH LASERS.

Quote from Plaguefather

let's face it, Bolas is stronger here than Dante/Bayonetta Combined...

You keep stating your opinion like it's a proven fact.

I don't know about Bayonetta as I haven't played those games, but Dante has taken out gods/godlike beings who are every bit as powerful as Bolas without a problem. Bolas is exactly the type of opponent Dante excells at killing.

I personally think Dante and Bayonetta can take this one just fine. I vote for them.

What sps said.

I don't remember Dante ever falling prey to mind magic. Hell, Nightmare swallowed him up - Nightmare, the creature who preys on people's subconscious conflicts and memories of foes and fears to generate a sub-dimension inside itself wherein you have to defeat those enemies - and he popped out just fine each time.

Quote from Plaguefather

And I never intended to say that Dante would succumb to mind control, etc. I said Bolas could read him like a book... Look into his mind, see what he's planning to do, and stop it. dante might be invulnerable to mind control, but I never saw any evidence of him being able to shield his mind from being probed, etc... It takes a very powerful mind mage to be able to shield from what Bolas can do.

I see your point here but Dante is a "fly by the seat of your pants" kinda guy. Bolas isn't going to be able to know what Dante is planning to do because Dante most likely doesn't even know what he's going to do. He's just not much of planner.

Why did you quote sps's post if you didn't actually respond to the point he brought up by it?

Regarding Bolas's size...so? Dante and Bayonetta both fight bigass creatures and win. We've already established this.

I didn't say I don't believe you, but I don't see how that's relevant to the argument.

Quote from Plaguefather

yes, but non quite so large as Bolas, remember, the Conflux Fat pack art is forcing perspective, Bolas is actually much, MUCH larger than people seem to think...

it seems you refuse to believe me when I tell you why Bolas initiated the conflux and created the Maelstrom... He did it to become an Oldwalker again...

Oldwalker > Gods

There, I said it... Go read the Storyline articles back when Conflux-alara Reborn came out from the mothership and the comics if you don't believe me. It's spelled out in black and white, Bolas was doing it to become all-powerful again...

I don't think it's safe to assume Bolas has time to go into Oldwalker mode. As has been basically established, Mewtwo is a small fry in this fight. It's practically a 2v1. Bolas cannot go oldwalker instantaneously upon arriving in the Maelstrom. Dante and Bayonetta have time before that happens, and that's probably enough time for two god-killers to team up on one. Yes, Bolas is ENORMOUS. In Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker he's surrounded by regular sized dragons to show how huge he is. These are the opponents Dante and Bayonetta regularly take on as bosses. The ones where they rip through the chest cavity and start going to town on a heart seven times their own size.

Again, I reference this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fE8H3spLbQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=143

Dante gets eaten by something that's so big that Dante isn't even as big as its EYE.

And then he kills it from the inside-out.

Poll votes:
PM - 19
CSK - 17

Post votes:
PM - 5
CSK - 4

Total votes:
PM - 24
CSK - 21

Breakdown:
Belgareth - ???
Warp778 - PM
narah - ???
jeffbcrandall - PM
KyleR - PM
PopeJP - CSK
Iso - CSK
draftguy2 - PM
Stardust - ???
Lechuza - CSK
Plaguefather - PM
sirpsychosexy - CSK

Notes:
With less than three days to go before the match closes, this one is going to be tight.

Also, BYPC and JFA are duking it out in a relatively ignored match somewhere else on the forum (Your votes count! This will determine who fights who in the bonus matches of the TOC vs. TOU).

I feel like you're wildly exaggerating Bolas's abilities.

Not really, according to the wiki Elder Dragons already rivaled the powers of Planeswalkers.

Pretty sure I read a tidbit somewhere that said they travel between planes without a spark.

Quote from Plaguefather

@ ISO, I'm not overestimating his abilities... It's his size that's in question... Are you gonna tell me with a straight face that Bolas walks everywhere and his wings are really friggin weak? Come on... I couldn't even type that with a straight face...

But the bigger he is the slower he's likely to be. His wings can probably create a good wind but they are going to flap pretty slowly. Dante on the other hand is exceedingly fast. It would be like a human trying to swat a small fly out of the air, which as we all know is incredibly hard to do.

I'm sure Bolas has his ways to threaten Dante and Bayonetta such as his magic and his telepathic abilities and whatnot but simply being much larger than them really isn't going to help him at all.

No. That doesn't mean he can't be killed, though.