And if it IS intended to include DC: Superman is an order of orders of magnitude more powerful than Goku, assuming pre-crisis superman. He beats them before they even know the fight has started. (And he'd lose, hard, to the array of marvel characters displayed above).
Correct me if I interpreted your post incorrectly...
I could vouch that Pre-Crisis Superman is more than powerful enough to literally defeat anyone in Marvel, at anytime. His feats in the 40's was pretty ridiculous to the point that whenever you read them, you think the writers were high and pulling the new abilities out of their butts. Personally, I am happy with that the change occurred in the 60's.
I don't think anyone is disagree that superman is an awful, awful character (although I can't understand why people think Goku is a GOOD character).
I do. As many, many others would disagree both in regards to Superman and Goku. It is like asking someone why they would like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or other comic book characters.
Goku solo most of them but can't deal with all of them alone. With Vegeta, it's a complete other story. Heck, Goku and Vegeta are way above the gods from the DBZ world, so it wouldn't be hard to say that they actually surpass those so called gods from Marvel. Also, did you put any archenemy to any of those Marvel heroes in the picture? If so, then why would they ally themselves against two sayans with enough power to obliterate a solar system? (Vegeta destroyed planets when he worked for Frieza and sayans have the base raw power in their ape form to actually lay complete waste on a planet, Super Sayan form is hundred of times more powerfull than ape form and both of them almost had enough raw power to anihilate Buu, which could be actually compared to Superman, when they challenged him, it follows logic that given the time since the end of the Dragon Ball manga, both of Vegeta and Goku surpassed that power level, as shown at the actual end of the manga when Goku goes to teach Uub).
Conclusion: Goku and Vegeta wins.
That would be true except for how powerful the Marvel universe is.
1. The Living Tribunal has actual omnipotence and omniscience.
2. The user of the Phoenix Force is actually able to destroy the universe.
3. Scarlet Witch was able to break reality
4. Mephisto is immortal
5. Nova has access to the entire Nova Force (basically unlimited power)
6. Sentry/Void has shapeshifting, invulnerability, weather control, incredible super speed, immortality, energy projecton on planet destroying levels, and enough super strength to fight Galactus (who is one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe) to a standstill.
And if it IS intended to include DC: Superman is an order of orders of magnitude more powerful than Goku, assuming pre-crisis superman. He beats them before they even know the fight has started. (And he'd lose, hard, to the array of marvel characters displayed above).
Correct me if I interpreted your post incorrectly...
I could vouch that Pre-Crisis Superman is more than powerful enough to literally defeat anyone in Marvel, at anytime. His feats in the 40's was pretty ridiculous to the point that whenever you read them, you think the writers were high and pulling the new abilities out of their butts. Personally, I am happy with that the change occurred in the 60's.
I don't think anyone is disagree that superman is an awful, awful character (although I can't understand why people think Goku is a GOOD character).
I do. As many, many others would disagree both in regards to Superman and Goku. It is like asking someone why they would like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or other comic book characters.
Pre-crisis Superman was very powerful. But he was not at the level of many Marvel characters. For example, the Living Tribunal is literally omnipotent. Phoenix can destroy the universe with a mere thought. Thanos with the infinity gauntlet can rewrite reality. Sentry/Void is basically a Marvel Superman (only without the kryptonite weakness). Superman is good, but he could never beat them.
Pre-crisis Superman was very powerful. But he was not at the level of many Marvel characters. For example, the Living Tribunal is literally omnipotent. Phoenix can destroy the universe with a mere thought. Thanos with the infinity gauntlet can rewrite reality. Sentry/Void is basically a Marvel Superman (only without the kryptonite weakness). Superman is good, but he could never beat them.
I'd still have to give it to Pre-crisis Superman in defeating Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Dark Phoenix, yeah, he'd probably lose. Superman's feats in the 40's were pretty friggin' ridiculous still, and I can see him taking on near anyone in Marvel and coming out on top with his genuine american 1940's smile.
Back on track though, Goku and Vegeta would still be torn to threads.
Goku solo most of them but can't deal with all of them alone. With Vegeta, it's a complete other story. Heck, Goku and Vegeta are way above the gods from the DBZ world, so it wouldn't be hard to say that they actually surpass those so called gods from Marvel. Also, did you put any archenemy to any of those Marvel heroes in the picture? If so, then why would they ally themselves against two sayans with enough power to obliterate a solar system? (Vegeta destroyed planets when he worked for Frieza and sayans have the base raw power in their ape form to actually lay complete waste on a planet, Super Sayan form is hundred of times more powerfull than ape form and both of them almost had enough raw power to anihilate Buu, which could be actually compared to Superman, when they challenged him, it follows logic that given the time since the end of the Dragon Ball manga, both of Vegeta and Goku surpassed that power level, as shown at the actual end of the manga when Goku goes to teach Uub).
Conclusion: Goku and Vegeta wins.
That would be true except for how powerful the Marvel universe is.
1. The Living Tribunal has actual omnipotence and omniscience.
2. The user of the Phoenix Force is actually able to destroy the universe.
3. Scarlet Witch was able to break reality
4. Mephisto is immortal
5. Nova has access to the entire Nova Force (basically unlimited power)
6. Sentry/Void has shapeshifting, invulnerability, weather control, incredible super speed, immortality, energy projecton on planet destroying levels, and enough super strength to fight Galactus (who is one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe) to a standstill.
See, right here, Goku and Vegeta wins because they don't have any crazy super powers that would render them invincible. In fact, sayans grow at each fight and each near death event. And I should remember you that Goku can learn around any technique just by seeing it? I'm making reference to when he managed to do a pseudo kamehameha when he was a kid, the afterimage technique and the 8 arms technique. Goku is a genius of fighting. So is Vegeta. So there, they beat all of them because they are the best combo out there. They don't need infinite strenght or omnipotence to win. And anyway, those with omnipotence must be tired of always winning, they must want to lose once or twice in their life, otherwise it would be boring.
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Goku solo most of them but can't deal with all of them alone. With Vegeta, it's a complete other story. Heck, Goku and Vegeta are way above the gods from the DBZ world, so it wouldn't be hard to say that they actually surpass those so called gods from Marvel. Also, did you put any archenemy to any of those Marvel heroes in the picture? If so, then why would they ally themselves against two sayans with enough power to obliterate a solar system? (Vegeta destroyed planets when he worked for Frieza and sayans have the base raw power in their ape form to actually lay complete waste on a planet, Super Sayan form is hundred of times more powerfull than ape form and both of them almost had enough raw power to anihilate Buu, which could be actually compared to Superman, when they challenged him, it follows logic that given the time since the end of the Dragon Ball manga, both of Vegeta and Goku surpassed that power level, as shown at the actual end of the manga when Goku goes to teach Uub).
Conclusion: Goku and Vegeta wins.
That would be true except for how powerful the Marvel universe is.
1. The Living Tribunal has actual omnipotence and omniscience.
2. The user of the Phoenix Force is actually able to destroy the universe.
3. Scarlet Witch was able to break reality
4. Mephisto is immortal
5. Nova has access to the entire Nova Force (basically unlimited power)
6. Sentry/Void has shapeshifting, invulnerability, weather control, incredible super speed, immortality, energy projecton on planet destroying levels, and enough super strength to fight Galactus (who is one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe) to a standstill.
See, right here, Goku and Vegeta wins because they don't have any crazy super powers that would render them invincible. In fact, sayans grow at each fight and each near death event. And I should remember you that Goku can learn around any technique just by seeing it? I'm making reference to when he managed to do a pseudo kamehameha when he was a kid, the afterimage technique and the 8 arms technique. Goku is a genius of fighting. So is Vegeta. So there, they beat all of them because they are the best combo out there. They don't need infinite strenght or omnipotence to win. And anyway, those with omnipotence must be tired of always winning, they must want to lose once or twice in their life, otherwise it would be boring.
So....you're argument is that they'd win, because they are less powerful and can lose, and anyway, they're the best fighters ever so they can't lose, but all those guys who they're going to beat who can't lose must want to lose so goku will win?
Umm, no. They will lose because they never lost. A hero that never lose is just unfun (and they would miss an important life lecon, which would just make them stronger after that). Goku lost from time to time, Vegeta lost from time to time and both of them got out of those ordeals more powerfull. Let's make a prime example, Superman doesn't lose, he just get a new superpower just to make him win before he lose. That's boring. Goku lose, everyone is happy to see that the hero can lose and even die (which never hapened to any of the marvel heros) just to come back stronger because losing=learning about oneself=getting stronger to surpass the weaknesses and hone the skills he already had! How many marvel heros faced a near death crisis just to pull out a last trick from the metaphorical magician's hat and win because of that? All of them. No heroes comming from the imagination of a north american as actually lost and died to then come back stronger (even if it's as a spiritual being that was given a temporary body).
Goku wins just because he already know what defeat gave him. Vegeta wins just because he also knows what defeat provided him (reference to the sayans attacking Earth arc where Vegeta learned to sense ki after losing, just before the frieza saga). So there, marvel heroes 0, Goku/Vegeta duo ''It's over 9000!''.
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Umm, no. They will lose because they never lost. A hero that never lose is just unfun (and they would miss an important life lecon, which would just make them stronger after that). Goku lost from time to time, Vegeta lost from time to time and both of them got out of those ordeals more powerfull. Let's make a prime example, Superman doesn't lose, he just get a new superpower just to make him win before he lose. That's boring. Goku lose, everyone is happy to see that the hero can lose and even die (which never hapened to any of the marvel heros) just to come back stronger because losing=learning about oneself=getting stronger to surpass the weaknesses and hone the skills he already had! How many marvel heros faced a near death crisis just to pull out a last trick from the metaphorical magician's hat and win because of that? All of them. No heroes comming from the imagination of a north american as actually lost and died to then come back stronger (even if it's as a spiritual being that was given a temporary body).
Goku wins just because he already know what defeat gave him. Vegeta wins just because he also knows what defeat provided him (reference to the sayans attacking Earth arc where Vegeta learned to sense ki after losing, just before the frieza saga). So there, marvel heroes 0, Goku/Vegeta duo ''It's over 9000!''.
By that logic, don't the marvel villains win because they know what losing is like? Besides, the villains are generally cooler and more powerful than the heroes anyways (see Dark Phoenix, Galactus, Thanos, Void, Mephisto, Scarlet Witch, Magneto, and several others).
Umm, no. They will lose because they never lost. A hero that never lose is just unfun (and they would miss an important life lecon, which would just make them stronger after that). Goku lost from time to time, Vegeta lost from time to time and both of them got out of those ordeals more powerfull. Let's make a prime example, Superman doesn't lose, he just get a new superpower just to make him win before he lose. That's boring. Goku lose, everyone is happy to see that the hero can lose and even die (which never hapened to any of the marvel heros) just to come back stronger because losing=learning about oneself=getting stronger to surpass the weaknesses and hone the skills he already had! How many marvel heros faced a near death crisis just to pull out a last trick from the metaphorical magician's hat and win because of that? All of them. No heroes comming from the imagination of a north american as actually lost and died to then come back stronger (even if it's as a spiritual being that was given a temporary body).
Goku wins just because he already know what defeat gave him. Vegeta wins just because he also knows what defeat provided him (reference to the sayans attacking Earth arc where Vegeta learned to sense ki after losing, just before the frieza saga). So there, marvel heroes 0, Goku/Vegeta duo ''It's over 9000!''.
That might be the dumbest argument I have ever heard.
If you pit the worst basketball team in the world against the best - lets say a hypothetical team which has never lost - do you posit that the bad team full of 5 foot nothing weaklings wins? I mean they have a lot more experience being defeated, and so they know what that is like! In fact, they've lost so often, they've got to be unbeatable!
Although if they are unbeatable, they can't know what losing is like, and so they'll lose, and then they'll win, because ohgodifellintoacircleofdumb.
I mean, were the christian god to exist, by your argument, he should lose in a fight against absolutely anything, because by definition everything has lost more than he has and knows more about losing. So I guess I should challenge him to a game of tennis.
Also, your argument that no Marvel superhero has died and come back from it is, um, woefully incorrect. Superman*, for instance has died. And come back from it. Granted, what he mostly learned was how to have a terrible haircut. And the phoenix - I mean do you know what a phoenix is? OF COURSE she has died (and come back stronger).
Also also: "No heroes coming from the imagination of a north american has actually lost and died to then come back stronger..." what a load of utter hogswash. Off the top of my head, comic book superheroes aside (because seriously they die so often there is probably a TV tropes page about it.)
Neo from the matrix. Sam and Dean (repeatedly) from supernatural. OBIWAN FRICKING KENOBI. Robocop. Scott pilgrim. Buffy the vampire slayer. Ripley. The Crow. Daniel Jackson (and others) in stargate. Starbuck, argueably, in battlestar. Beric Dondarion in game of thrones.
These, mind, are just the ones off the top of my head, excluding comic book characters. I mean, I assume you've heard of some of those. Like starwars.
Fine Verbal, continue living in denial when we are speaking of comic logic. Comic logic states that a hero that never loses is not a good hero, just a mere attempt to bring someone some visual enjoyment. The hero loses, we see the fan in complete need of seeing their hero rise back up to the challenge of defeating such a strong opponent. Superheroes loses against two manga heroes who ahd to climb from the gutter of the universe (let's face it, Goku was said to be the weakest sayan and Vegeta said to be the strongest and yet, both of them wouldn't have been able to beat Frieza at the begining of the showdown between Vegeta and Goku when they fought the first time and yet they get to the power level of Buu, said to be the most powerfull vilain, at the end of the manga, when Goku flies off with Uub on his back). Since the manga ended (and Goku would still be alive and young today, comic logic here), it would be normal for Goku to be the ultimate sayan in the universe.
Clearly, this VS is more about which characters we would love to see eating dust. And as I stated in an earlier post, some heros might find it more interesting to fighbt those that displease them before dealing with 2 sayans. And to counter your example on basketball, the losing team might be training twice or trice the time the allstars do, so they will become winners at a certain point. So, feeling like retracting your ''circle of dumb'' and your advice of ''dumb'' argument?
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alright, that would make sense: if we were following the logic of storytelling. Yes, heroes who never lose are subject to becoming Mary Sues/Marty Stues, but we are not telling a story here. We are trying to see who would win a no holds barred beatdown: Goku and Vegeta, or the entirety of the Marvel universe, and the result is that, quite frankly, Goku and Vegeta do not stand a chance. They are laughably, hilariously, outmatched.
Yes, they come back stronger every time they almost die. *almost* being the key word there. I don't think that the people they are fighting would give them the opportunity to heal, and I'm pretty sure that getting revived over and over until they win involves, oh, I don't know... poeple aside from Goku and Vegeta?
Look, we're not trying to argue who the best characters are, and we are not trying to tell a story, we are trying to decide who the better group of fighters are.
Fine Verbal, continue living in denial when we are speaking of comic logic. Comic logic states that a hero that never loses is not a good hero, just a mere attempt to bring someone some visual enjoyment. The hero loses, we see the fan in complete need of seeing their hero rise back up to the challenge of defeating such a strong opponent. Superheroes loses against two manga heroes who ahd to climb from the gutter of the universe (let's face it, Goku was said to be the weakest sayan and Vegeta said to be the strongest and yet, both of them wouldn't have been able to beat Frieza at the begining of the showdown between Vegeta and Goku when they fought the first time and yet they get to the power level of Buu, said to be the most powerfull vilain, at the end of the manga, when Goku flies off with Uub on his back). Since the manga ended (and Goku would still be alive and young today, comic logic here), it would be normal for Goku to be the ultimate sayan in the universe.
Clearly, this VS is more about which characters we would love to see eating dust. And as I stated in an earlier post, some heros might find it more interesting to fighbt those that displease them before dealing with 2 sayans. And to counter your example on basketball, the losing team might be training twice or trice the time the allstars do, so they will become winners at a certain point. So, feeling like retracting your ''circle of dumb'' and your advice of ''dumb'' argument?
No.
A person who is bad at something doesn't beat a person who is good at something just because the bad person is bad. Can't you see how awful an argument that is?
Yes, the much worse team might train a lot and eventually beat the better team. But we're not talking about a training camp; we're talking about Vegta and Goku being a hundred meters from that oncoming wall of marvel characters. Yes, they'll beat most of them. But they are *literally* incapable of beating some of them.
Lets talk numbers.
Lets say goku has a power of a million units* at this point.
Some of those characters have a power of, lets say, a trillion. They will win this fight. "But ah" you say "goku will come back! Stronger and better!".
Well first off, we're not engaging in a multi-part epic. One fight, winner takes all. But lets say he can double his strength. Welll....he still loses, with only 2 million. But doublings can achieve a lot.
Lets say he can repeatedly do that. 20 tries later, he wins. Yay!
Only the next guy has a power of a pentillion.
That's ok, another 20 doublings later and goku is on top again.
Ok. Next he tries to fight the living tribunal.
The living tribunal has a power of literally infinite.
There is no number of doublings that will help. No amount of retries will win this fight. Goku is literally incapable of ever winning. It is not physically possible. It's not about heart, and character, or the heroes journey - it's about one of these characters being omnipotent, and the other *not being*.
So it doesn't matter who I think is a better or more interesting character (Goku, for the record, I think is completely and utterly boring, a dreadfully written mary sue. As, indeed, a lot of the top-power marvel and DC characters).
* it doesn't matter what the units are. Or that I have picked a million.
Okay, this is clearly not a VS thread anymore. Everyone, notice how much Verbal, creater of this thread, seems to give too much of an advantage to the Marvel universe? He picked his sided and shoots down any other advice except those who agrees. Not a VS thread anymore, pretty sure he follows it just to troll us who are not in favor of the Marvel Universe.
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Correct me if I interpreted your post incorrectly...
I could vouch that Pre-Crisis Superman is more than powerful enough to literally defeat anyone in Marvel, at anytime. His feats in the 40's was pretty ridiculous to the point that whenever you read them, you think the writers were high and pulling the new abilities out of their butts. Personally, I am happy with that the change occurred in the 60's.
I do. As many, many others would disagree both in regards to Superman and Goku. It is like asking someone why they would like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, or other comic book characters.
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Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
That would be true except for how powerful the Marvel universe is.
1. The Living Tribunal has actual omnipotence and omniscience.
2. The user of the Phoenix Force is actually able to destroy the universe.
3. Scarlet Witch was able to break reality
4. Mephisto is immortal
5. Nova has access to the entire Nova Force (basically unlimited power)
6. Sentry/Void has shapeshifting, invulnerability, weather control, incredible super speed, immortality, energy projecton on planet destroying levels, and enough super strength to fight Galactus (who is one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe) to a standstill.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Pre-crisis Superman was very powerful. But he was not at the level of many Marvel characters. For example, the Living Tribunal is literally omnipotent. Phoenix can destroy the universe with a mere thought. Thanos with the infinity gauntlet can rewrite reality. Sentry/Void is basically a Marvel Superman (only without the kryptonite weakness). Superman is good, but he could never beat them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'd still have to give it to Pre-crisis Superman in defeating Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Dark Phoenix, yeah, he'd probably lose. Superman's feats in the 40's were pretty friggin' ridiculous still, and I can see him taking on near anyone in Marvel and coming out on top with his genuine american 1940's smile.
Back on track though, Goku and Vegeta would still be torn to threads.
EDH DECKS
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See, right here, Goku and Vegeta wins because they don't have any crazy super powers that would render them invincible. In fact, sayans grow at each fight and each near death event. And I should remember you that Goku can learn around any technique just by seeing it? I'm making reference to when he managed to do a pseudo kamehameha when he was a kid, the afterimage technique and the 8 arms technique. Goku is a genius of fighting. So is Vegeta. So there, they beat all of them because they are the best combo out there. They don't need infinite strenght or omnipotence to win. And anyway, those with omnipotence must be tired of always winning, they must want to lose once or twice in their life, otherwise it would be boring.
So....you're argument is that they'd win, because they are less powerful and can lose, and anyway, they're the best fighters ever so they can't lose, but all those guys who they're going to beat who can't lose must want to lose so goku will win?
because that is what it sounds like.
Goku wins just because he already know what defeat gave him. Vegeta wins just because he also knows what defeat provided him (reference to the sayans attacking Earth arc where Vegeta learned to sense ki after losing, just before the frieza saga). So there, marvel heroes 0, Goku/Vegeta duo ''It's over 9000!''.
By that logic, don't the marvel villains win because they know what losing is like? Besides, the villains are generally cooler and more powerful than the heroes anyways (see Dark Phoenix, Galactus, Thanos, Void, Mephisto, Scarlet Witch, Magneto, and several others).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That might be the dumbest argument I have ever heard.
If you pit the worst basketball team in the world against the best - lets say a hypothetical team which has never lost - do you posit that the bad team full of 5 foot nothing weaklings wins? I mean they have a lot more experience being defeated, and so they know what that is like! In fact, they've lost so often, they've got to be unbeatable!
Although if they are unbeatable, they can't know what losing is like, and so they'll lose, and then they'll win, because ohgodifellintoacircleofdumb.
I mean, were the christian god to exist, by your argument, he should lose in a fight against absolutely anything, because by definition everything has lost more than he has and knows more about losing. So I guess I should challenge him to a game of tennis.
Also, your argument that no Marvel superhero has died and come back from it is, um, woefully incorrect. Superman*, for instance has died. And come back from it. Granted, what he mostly learned was how to have a terrible haircut. And the phoenix - I mean do you know what a phoenix is? OF COURSE she has died (and come back stronger).
Also also: "No heroes coming from the imagination of a north american has actually lost and died to then come back stronger..." what a load of utter hogswash. Off the top of my head, comic book superheroes aside (because seriously they die so often there is probably a TV tropes page about it.)
Neo from the matrix. Sam and Dean (repeatedly) from supernatural. OBIWAN FRICKING KENOBI. Robocop. Scott pilgrim. Buffy the vampire slayer. Ripley. The Crow. Daniel Jackson (and others) in stargate. Starbuck, argueably, in battlestar. Beric Dondarion in game of thrones.
These, mind, are just the ones off the top of my head, excluding comic book characters. I mean, I assume you've heard of some of those. Like starwars.
*not actually a marvel hero, but let's move on.
Clearly, this VS is more about which characters we would love to see eating dust. And as I stated in an earlier post, some heros might find it more interesting to fighbt those that displease them before dealing with 2 sayans. And to counter your example on basketball, the losing team might be training twice or trice the time the allstars do, so they will become winners at a certain point. So, feeling like retracting your ''circle of dumb'' and your advice of ''dumb'' argument?
Yes, they come back stronger every time they almost die. *almost* being the key word there. I don't think that the people they are fighting would give them the opportunity to heal, and I'm pretty sure that getting revived over and over until they win involves, oh, I don't know... poeple aside from Goku and Vegeta?
Look, we're not trying to argue who the best characters are, and we are not trying to tell a story, we are trying to decide who the better group of fighters are.
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1. lists.
b. inconsistencies.
V. incorrect math.
2. quotes in signatures
III: irony.
there are two kinds of people in the world: those who can make reasonable conclusions based on conjecture.
No.
A person who is bad at something doesn't beat a person who is good at something just because the bad person is bad. Can't you see how awful an argument that is?
Yes, the much worse team might train a lot and eventually beat the better team. But we're not talking about a training camp; we're talking about Vegta and Goku being a hundred meters from that oncoming wall of marvel characters. Yes, they'll beat most of them. But they are *literally* incapable of beating some of them.
Lets talk numbers.
Lets say goku has a power of a million units* at this point.
Some of those characters have a power of, lets say, a trillion. They will win this fight. "But ah" you say "goku will come back! Stronger and better!".
Well first off, we're not engaging in a multi-part epic. One fight, winner takes all. But lets say he can double his strength. Welll....he still loses, with only 2 million. But doublings can achieve a lot.
Lets say he can repeatedly do that. 20 tries later, he wins. Yay!
Only the next guy has a power of a pentillion.
That's ok, another 20 doublings later and goku is on top again.
Ok. Next he tries to fight the living tribunal.
The living tribunal has a power of literally infinite.
There is no number of doublings that will help. No amount of retries will win this fight. Goku is literally incapable of ever winning. It is not physically possible. It's not about heart, and character, or the heroes journey - it's about one of these characters being omnipotent, and the other *not being*.
So it doesn't matter who I think is a better or more interesting character (Goku, for the record, I think is completely and utterly boring, a dreadfully written mary sue. As, indeed, a lot of the top-power marvel and DC characters).
* it doesn't matter what the units are. Or that I have picked a million.
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