I don't think I completely agree with this. That would only put people like Batman and Punisher on the playing field, would it not? @ exceeding physics
It also doesn't take into account that people have things like magic, different types of energy, etc.
I think the main thing to do would be to try to keep the powers in check. For instance the flash being the flash would whip any magic user I can come up with from outside of comics because most magic users cant move that fast and would get punched in the face before they could twitch. How do you kill something that moves so fast you cant see it? On the other hand if we assume Iron Man has much more human move speed... how does his armor help him at all if some kind of wizard throws a spell his way?
I think the biggest issue we are facing here is that sometimes characters just are not that compatible especially when they come from different "universes". It similar to the Star Trek VS Star Wars problem. The scales on the product are just different. Star Wars in canon has Star Trek way out scaled in terms of weapon power levels, travel speed and Universe size. But if you ignore the "numbers" and just go with "hey they both have space ships with shields and lasers" and focus on their commanders, extra toys and aspects outside of which one has the more powerful laser, you could have a more reasonable debate.
I wish to rename your classifications based on the heros we are going to have fighing City Class (LW) - Normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities (examples: Batman, Spiderman). Typicaly people who save a city from destruction/takeover/problems.
Nation Class (MW) - Greater than human ability, either mutant, monster or alien, and with minor superhuman powers (examples:, Captin America, Most Xmen). Typicaly saves Nations (or threatens nations)
World Class (HW) - Very powerful, but few, superhuman abilities, or alternately, very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but not both (examples: Starfire, Human Torch, Hulk, Dr Doom).People who threaten the very world itself/powerful enough to save the whole world
Galaxyclass (SHW) - Very powerful, and very many, superhuman abilities (examples: Superman prime, Martian Manhunter, Thor, Green Lantern, Gaxctis). These mighty hero/villeins tend to threaten/save the entire Universe.
We change the rules so that you can only vote if you give your vote in limerick form (strict AABBA)
My vote goes to Doom
He will make you go kaboom
Some seem to think he cannot be overcome
However, that's just his fandom
He will probably lose when we resume
I wish to rename your classifications based on the heros we are going to have fighing City Class (LW) - Normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities (examples: Batman, Spiderman). Typicaly people who save a city from destruction/takeover/problems.
Nation Class (MW) - Greater than human ability, either mutant, monster or alien, and with minor superhuman powers (examples:, Captin America, Most Xmen). Typicaly saves Nations (or threatens nations)
World Class (HW) - Very powerful, but few, superhuman abilities, or alternately, very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but not both (examples: Starfire, Human Torch, Hulk, Dr Doom).People who threaten the very world itself/powerful enough to save the whole world
Galaxyclass (SHW) - Very powerful, and very many, superhuman abilities (examples: Superman prime, Martian Manhunter, Thor, Green Lantern, Gaxctis). These mighty hero/villeins tend to threaten/save the entire Universe.
Just being that guy but... What does that do to guys like Star Wars Characters? Technically they are saving/destroying galaxies but I assume we arent going to be entering "Darth Vader in his Death Star" as a contestant.
I'll be keeping this thread open for as long as it needs to until we get enough feedback to iron things out more.
After reading your posts, I have compiled a list of rules in the form of a Codex, which I hope you can all take the time to read and give feedback on, as I tried to incorporate as many suggestions from all of you as possible.
If The Codex checks out (and we can still develop it over time), we can also use it in the future as a template for any further TOCs that any of you may wish to host.
The Tournament should keep going until we finish it. I would add a "No Outlier" general rule in order to balance keeping the tournament interesting while attempting to keep it from growing dull.
I took note of this suggestion and added this in The Codex under "Arguments of Average Power". It's a good idea, Catmurderer! Thank you for this!
The problem we have with the tournament is the write ups for the teams. The write ups are all to vague to be used for a tournament like this. The write up should specify which character it is or at least which time period in the comics they are from. Nobody could have seen this coming until it was looking at us in the face.
True. The write ups could have been clearer... and apologize for the lack of oversight. To remedy this, I added your valuable input in the Codex under "Source Materials". This has to be made very clear from the very beginning, also to decide which sources we can use to argue.
I would also like to suggest getting rid of poll voting and only using the votes that have a valid argument behind them in an attempt to fix popularity contests as well as votes that just have "Takes on the other team single handedly" Your vote should only count if it has a valid argument behind it. Voting is a privilege and if you can't control yourself and make a valid argument that privilege should be taken away from you. If you vote for a team and somebody else thinks of a way your argument is flawed you can still have your vote count for whichever team you want as long as you clearly gave it a good shot.
Changing the "Dual Voting System" to a regular one is a bit of a fundamental change, so I'll have to ask everyone else if they are alright with that, but I personally wouldn't mind, since I can concentrate on post arguments and then people really would have to post something. On the other hand, I don't want to alienate those who wish to remain anonymous... hmmm...
I added suggestions to the voting system in The Codex as well. We can decide on that together.
Poring I strongly believe you should finish the tournament firstly.
Secondly I fully support you being allowed to ban members from the tournament if they become to aggressive or trolling in nature (The Abbadon v Thor thread springs to mind), ofcourse you can't stop them posting but you can ignore their post vote for start and if it escalates further then either the mods will have stepped in and carded (if it was needed) or you can DQ the team if you think it's in best interest.
You should not have to wade through so many idiotic posts just to bring a bit of light hearted fun to the forum.
There should be a simple few rules.
1) Common sense and fair game play: We are talking about a fun game not a life or death survival decision, there is no need for aggression.
It's not supposed to be the charecters ultimate feats but more their average everyday abilities.
2) Porings decision is final: If he says a person or persons are too overpowered then the original suggester can either add specific limits or poring can disqualify them or add limits himself.
I really enjoyed every single thread apart from both Abaddon threads entirely due to plaguefather.
I do also agree that people need to give even a small reason for their post vote.
Example: (Don't quote me on this but I seem to remember a post like this)
Cat Murderer voted for Wonder woman and stated it was because she was stronger, faster and had better access to weaponry.
Now while this may or may not be true it is better than I vote Dante he 1'shots all, or just I vote Dante.
I am also happy to volunteer to help you poring if you need any support.
Appreciate the support, Belgareth!
I added the "fair play" portion of your post to the "Preamble" of The Codex. I think it should be a fundamental rule, so thanks for that!
I also agree that people need to post a decent reason to vote, so I included that in the "Post Voting" section of the codex.
As for imposing lock outs or bans... well, I guess maybe I should take a more active hand in matches from now on, so I'll do my best and rely on you all to call me out if I abuse it.
As you can see, I vote up to restart the tournament.
Note: I second Belgareth's suggestion about "ignoring" empty votes and possible "banning" troublemaker posters.
Thank you for your input! It would take much longer to restart the tournament using the method you suggested to simply finishing it, but I do appreciate that as an option! Maybe we will use it if we decide to start from scratch. As for your seconding of giving me mod powers for my thread, I hope you also stick around to check my powers so I don't go overboard (should I decide to use them).
I vote to restart, with balanced teams, not with characters that are ALL of their versions in one...
First, Plaguefeather, thanks for giving your opinion. I can see your points and you are not entirely wrong for what you are saying, but I have to admit, there are some of us, myself included, who feel that you might have overstepped it a little in the current match. I understand that you are supporting your team, and that it was up against a team with a vast array of resources from years of comic books, but still, a lot of your posts could have been more neutral.
Please don't take my warning personally when I tell you that for this match and all future matches, I expect you to relax a bit more, and to please be more respectful to everyone with an opinion which doesn't coincide with yours. Just doing my job, alright?
Your opinion on a better voting system was also incorporated into The Codex. People should provide reasons to vote.
As for the restart, we'll consider it. The problem with restarting is that, logistically speaking, finding the most time efficient way to do so would be tasking...
Don't restart the tournament. This can be salvaged. We're more than halfway done and every thread has been fun until the latest. Even though some fights will be onesided, that's fine. We've learned a lot already about how to run one of these, but let's just finish it off. Maybe we'll learn some more.
So how to salvage? Catmurderer nailed it. Make an official decree that if a character has done something once or twice, it's not allowed here. If someone got hit by a nuke once and survived - fine, that's evidence of their toughness. If someone destroyed the Earth once, let's just assume there're not going to do that again.
Additionally, Poring, you've shown yourself to be a level-headed debater and I think you have in mind the best direction this tournament can take. I fully support you acting as a mod in this case and just laying down the laws. If you go too far, we'll call you on it, but stepping in with some bold orange text to keep things in line is 100% okay by me. Talk to the WCT mods about how far they'd be comfortable with you going, but I feel confident saying you've got the people's support on this one.
Thank you so much, Stardust!
Currently, my mindset is to keep the tournament going to learn as much as possible about developing a set of rules so that future tournaments may have a better and more organized shot at survival. If this means I have to take a more active hand, then I suppose I must. As for the rules overlay, I incorporated Catmurderer's suggestion, as well as your perspective and feedback, into The Codex. Hope this checks out with both of you.
For whatever its worth, I suggest finishing what you started. Don't allow some people to partake if you deem it nessessary, some other stuff, with each team write up give us a link to the wiki so we can all quickly read up general stats for both teams, give teams a better write up.
Thank you, draftguy2! I'm all for finishing what I began. I think we can still learn a valuable lesson or two. As for the wiki links and support, this is normally where I call the original nominators to step in, though some of them, unfortunately, are no longer with the MTGS community, so acquring better knowledge may prove difficult. Still, the provisions for better write ups stands. I encourage people to now submit new ones for their teams, if possible.
Also, I added the encouraging of write ups in The Codex, as well as an option as to what to use as sources. Thanks for your input!
Id like for you to keep the tournament going till the finish. At worst worst worst case senario, it just tells you of other problems with the tournament.
Thank you, TheEndIsNear! I think we can actually use this as an opportunity to lay down some real rules, which could also benefit the Versus Forum in the future.
On your point of comic book characters being DQ'd... yes, it does seem that their sheer depth of resources puts them at a priviledged advantage. As such, to counter this, I've decided to divide sources into tiers as well. Maybe this will mitigate it without necessarily disqualifying them. You can see this in the "Sources" part of The Codex. Thanks for your input!
We change the rules so that you can only vote if you give your vote in limerick form (strict AABBA)
My vote goes to Doom
He will make you go kaboom
Some seem to think he cannot be overcome
However, that's just his fandom
He will probably lose when we resume
(Im not good at this)
Just for this post, I will now consider any vote using this style to be valid.
Now for The Codex... please comment on this!
I incorporated as many suggestions from all of you as possible, as well as your points in threads and what I observed from the versus matches so far. Please feel free to scrutinize this set of rules, as this could be the groundwork for all future matches for the tournament, or any other in the future that wishes to use it:
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.0) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
b) Voters - Members of the forum participating in the tournament by nominating, supporting or otherwise posting their opinions on any matches in the tournament, regardless of whether or not they vote using any of the methods outlined in Section III of The Codex.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
d) Borderline Cases - Situations that may come up over the course of the tournament left up to the referee’s discretion to decide. These, like many situations that could come up in the tournament, need to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be single-elimination, round robin, or any other format selected by the referee.
f) Round - A set of versus matches in which participants may or may not be eliminated and move on to the next round, in the case of a single-elimination tournament and the like.
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
II. Character Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the character from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the character in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the character being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the character uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Average Power- Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) The No Minions Rule - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any allies or summons, living, undead, elemental, technologically artificially intelligent and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) The No Vehicles Rule - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a character would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the poll by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match.
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that character will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins.
c) Unlimited Information - All information on all opponents are instantly made available and made directly known to the participants before the match begins.
So basically, The TOC and TOU will use the following rules of The Codex:
All of Sections 0 and I
Section II, Article 2, Clauses a and b
Section II, Article 3, Clauses a, b, c, d, and e
Section III, Article 1, Clause c (using the modified post voting in b)
Section IV, Article 1, Clause c
Section IV, Article 2
Section V, Article 1, Clause c
Section V, Article 2, Clause c
Further suggestions and opinions are encouraged.
Also, I'll put The Codex and list of TOC and TOU teams in the OP.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll be keeping this thread open for as long as it needs to until we get enough feedback to iron things out more.
After reading your posts, I have compiled a list of rules in the form of a Codex, which I hope you can all take the time to read and give feedback on, as I tried to incorporate as many suggestions from all of you as possible.
If The Codex checks out (and we can still develop it over time), we can also use it in the future as a template for any further TOCs that any of you may wish to host.
Now to reply to some interesting posts...
I took note of this suggestion and added this in The Codex under "Arguments of Average Power". It's a good idea, Catmurderer! Thank you for this!
True. The write ups could have been clearer... and apologize for the lack of oversight. To remedy this, I added your valuable input in the Codex under "Source Materials". This has to be made very clear from the very beginning, also to decide which sources we can use to argue.
Changing the "Dual Voting System" to a regular one is a bit of a fundamental change, so I'll have to ask everyone else if they are alright with that, but I personally wouldn't mind, since I can concentrate on post arguments and then people really would have to post something. On the other hand, I don't want to alienate those who wish to remain anonymous... hmmm...
I added suggestions to the voting system in The Codex as well. We can decide on that together.
Appreciate the support, Belgareth!
I added the "fair play" portion of your post to the "Preamble" of The Codex. I think it should be a fundamental rule, so thanks for that!
I also agree that people need to post a decent reason to vote, so I included that in the "Post Voting" section of the codex.
As for imposing lock outs or bans... well, I guess maybe I should take a more active hand in matches from now on, so I'll do my best and rely on you all to call me out if I abuse it.
Thank you for your input! It would take much longer to restart the tournament using the method you suggested to simply finishing it, but I do appreciate that as an option! Maybe we will use it if we decide to start from scratch. As for your seconding of giving me mod powers for my thread, I hope you also stick around to check my powers so I don't go overboard (should I decide to use them).
First, Plaguefeather, thanks for giving your opinion. I can see your points and you are not entirely wrong for what you are saying, but I have to admit, there are some of us, myself included, who feel that you might have overstepped it a little in the current match. I understand that you are supporting your team, and that it was up against a team with a vast array of resources from years of comic books, but still, a lot of your posts could have been more neutral.
Please don't take my warning personally when I tell you that for this match and all future matches, I expect you to relax a bit more, and to please be more respectful to everyone with an opinion which doesn't coincide with yours. Just doing my job, alright?
Your opinion on a better voting system was also incorporated into The Codex. People should provide reasons to vote.
As for the restart, we'll consider it. The problem with restarting is that, logistically speaking, finding the most time efficient way to do so would be tasking...
Thank you so much, Stardust!
Currently, my mindset is to keep the tournament going to learn as much as possible about developing a set of rules so that future tournaments may have a better and more organized shot at survival. If this means I have to take a more active hand, then I suppose I must. As for the rules overlay, I incorporated Catmurderer's suggestion, as well as your perspective and feedback, into The Codex. Hope this checks out with both of you.
Thank you, draftguy2! I'm all for finishing what I began. I think we can still learn a valuable lesson or two. As for the wiki links and support, this is normally where I call the original nominators to step in, though some of them, unfortunately, are no longer with the MTGS community, so acquring better knowledge may prove difficult. Still, the provisions for better write ups stands. I encourage people to now submit new ones for their teams, if possible.
Also, I added the encouraging of write ups in The Codex, as well as an option as to what to use as sources. Thanks for your input!
Will do right after this post, Iso.
Thank you, TheEndIsNear! I think we can actually use this as an opportunity to lay down some real rules, which could also benefit the Versus Forum in the future.
On your point of comic book characters being DQ'd... yes, it does seem that their sheer depth of resources puts them at a priviledged advantage. As such, to counter this, I've decided to divide sources into tiers as well. Maybe this will mitigate it without necessarily disqualifying them. You can see this in the "Sources" part of The Codex. Thanks for your input!
Just for this post, I will now consider any vote using this style to be valid.
Now for The Codex... please comment on this!
I incorporated as many suggestions from all of you as possible, as well as your points in threads and what I observed from the versus matches so far. Please feel free to scrutinize this set of rules, as this could be the groundwork for all future matches for the tournament, or any other in the future that wishes to use it:
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.0) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
b) Voters - Members of the forum participating in the tournament by nominating, supporting or otherwise posting their opinions on any matches in the tournament, regardless of whether or not they vote using any of the methods outlined in Section III of The Codex.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
d) Borderline Cases - Situations that may come up over the course of the tournament left up to the referee’s discretion to decide. These, like many situations that could come up in the tournament, need to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be single-elimination, round robin, or any other format selected by the referee.
f) Round - A set of versus matches in which participants may or may not be eliminated and move on to the next round, in the case of a single-elimination tournament and the like.
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
II. Character Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the character from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the character in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the character being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the character uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Average Power- Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) The No Minions Rule - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any allies or summons, living, undead, elemental, technologically artificially intelligent and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) The No Vehicles Rule - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a character would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the poll by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match.
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that character will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins.
c) Unlimited Information - All information on all opponents are instantly made available and made directly known to the participants before the match begins.
So basically, The TOC and TOU will use the following rules of The Codex:
All of Sections 0 and I
Section II, Article 2, Clauses a and b
Section II, Article 3, Clauses a, b, c, d, and e
Section III, Article 1, Clause c (using the modified post voting in b)
Section IV, Article 1, Clause c
Section IV, Article 2
Section V, Article 1, Clause c
Section V, Article 2, Clause c
Further suggestions and opinions are encouraged.
Also, I'll put The Codex and list of TOC and TOU teams in the OP.
Yeah, I have no problem seeing Teams 10, 13, 16, and 18 dropping out of the tournament.
I don't see why 18 needs to be dropped. If you go by their pure abilities, and not what some random je says they can do, they are strong, but balanced ~ish.
Abaddon is strong. Like really strong. And fast and all. There are stronger beings than him. He is tough too. His armour (Terminator armour) is one of the toughest around, the equivalent of wearing a tank. His weapon is essentially a rocket launcher machine gun. But what makes him stand out is that he is a brilliant strategist. Realistically, without his armor, lets say he is as strong as an elephant*, I could see Batman being able to take on a Human with an Elephant like strength.
What I'm trying to say, he isn't busted on Thor/WW/Hulk/Flash level.
* I don't have the most up to date chaos codex, just the two before it, but I've never read of Abaddon being praised for his martial prowess more than others. He is a commander of a Space Marine Legions. But he is on par with the other Leader of Legions. He isn't as strong as a Carnifex or even a Hive Tyrant. He Has exacltly the stats of a Space Marine Chaos Lord + 1 of every Mark + equipment. He isn't magically buffed beyond that.
I'd like to add another class of information (which is kind of a specialised version of limited information): "Practical opponent information."
Take a hero like, say, batman. Assume that before the match start, the other team get to sit down for an hour or so with half a dozen random villians who fight batman regularly. The villians will tell them anything they could reasonably know about Batman - his habits, his fighting style, his gadgets etc. They won't tell the opponent that batman is secretly bruce wayne, or other things they don't have any plausible way of knowing.
This gets around a whole series of one-shot kills (knowing peoples true names, for instance, is essentially a fatality for a variety of pro-or-an tagonists) or some of the most crazy schemes (trying to cut thor off from Mjollner) but still gives a fair bit of info.
I'd like to add another class of information (which is kind of a specialised version of limited information): "Practical opponent information."
Take a hero like, say, batman. Assume that before the match start, the other team get to sit down for an hour or so with half a dozen random villians who fight batman regularly. The villians will tell them anything they could reasonably know about Batman - his habits, his fighting style, his gadgets etc. They won't tell the opponent that batman is secretly bruce wayne, or other things they don't have any plausible way of knowing.
This gets around a whole series of one-shot kills (knowing peoples true names, for instance, is essentially a fatality for a variety of pro-or-an tagonists) or some of the most crazy schemes (trying to cut thor off from Mjollner) but still gives a fair bit of info.
Some of them do know his secret identity but won't reveal it. Do they go all out?
How about we go you'd know what the public knows. The Public doesn't know batman's powers. This makes it cool as mysterious characters would be more mysterious than Superman type characters that everyone knows. The people of the city of the punisher might know an urban legend about him, so those who fae him wouldn't know much concrete stuff. Superman who everyone knows his abilities would have every opponent know his stuff for example.
I think "what an average enemy knows" is reasonable. (which has the interesting property that comic book batmans secret identity would remain secret, but christian-bale batman's wouldn't, as every bloody bugger seems to know who he is)
I don't see why 18 needs to be dropped. If you go by their pure abilities, and not what some random je says they can do, they are strong, but balanced ~ish.
Abaddon is strong. Like really strong. And fast and all. There are stronger beings than him. He is tough too. His armour (Terminator armour) is one of the toughest around, the equivalent of wearing a tank. His weapon is essentially a rocket launcher machine gun. But what makes him stand out is that he is a brilliant strategist. Realistically, without his armor, lets say he is as strong as an elephant*, I could see Batman being able to take on a Human with an Elephant like strength.
What I'm trying to say, he isn't busted on Thor/WW/Hulk/Flash level.
* I don't have the most up to date chaos codex, just the two before it, but I've never read of Abaddon being praised for his martial prowess more than others. He is a commander of a Space Marine Legions. But he is on par with the other Leader of Legions. He isn't as strong as a Carnifex or even a Hive Tyrant. He Has exacltly the stats of a Space Marine Chaos Lord + 1 of every Mark + equipment. He isn't magically buffed beyond that.
I'd like to bring up point about Abaddon's Strength.
The latest 'dex switched the strength modifier, mainly because now close-combat weapons have their own weapon profiles. But, now Drach'Nyen doesn't confer the double strength bonus, no, The Talon of Horus does though, and the rules they gave it are completely fair. Now it's ap3, Shred, Str: x2. Drach'nyen changed to Str +1, Ap2, Specialist Daemon Weapon.
Honestly, I haven't gotten to use the new Abaddon on Tabletop (I'm partial to my old lists, I haven't given 6th edition a fair chance I suppose...) But Abaddon in the Previous book still had some of the same special rules, now he's just better at fighting Space Marines (due to him giving him and his retinue Preferred enemy: Space Marines.) He still has EW, etc. They just buffed his abilities a bit more, and nerfed the sword, whilst boosting the Talon.
I dunno, I've read some interesting points, mostly coming from Stardust and yourself TheEndisNear.
So, Under the new codeces of rules, Which characters lose the most?
Obviously, now we have to determine specifically what timeline certain characters come from. So now Doom isn't godlike having Hulk-strength + Destroyer Armor + All of Magic = Godhood. This will more likely be something like = Doom from Fantastic Four Movie 1. Or etc.
Honestly, it seems like there's still something there to be abused, but I can't see it right now. Only when someone exploits it will we know. Which is the sad part.
I think we need to re-examine how we determine Terrains for the fights as well. Like, pick 3 terrains hand-selected, then roll a d3 to determine which one they'll fight on. Or have people vote on it.
Honestly, I've actually been thinking about characters i'd really love to nominate for teams (which is partially why I voted for the restart, Intersting team ups I've got swirling in my brain, One of them is in the TOC2 thread... ) The only reasons I nominated who I did was because I saw Power Levels, and I didn't have enough time to think about anyone else...
So I just took two of my favorite characters from my two favorite games, and teamed them up. (Yes, I'm an Artificer at heart, Tezzeret will always be my favorite Planeswalker.) Which is why I got offended when people said he was too weak and they just one-shot him.
Also, My last couple posts in the current thread were trying to play it as a narrative almost, I set up a conversation between Thor and Tezzeret, What with the effects of the terrain (knowledge loss, having cards taken from your hand equates to you losing knowledge.) It's in Tezzeret's character to recognize the effects like that and try to exploit them. Thor and WW would be feeling the same thing, I'm not sure what Abaddon would do, but since Tezzeret looks similar to himself, I'm sure he wouldn't attack him, and go for the two looking like goody-two-shoes.
Point is, I presented an argument, I wasn't trying to issue it as fact, but they do learn about their opponent's beforehand, Thinking tezzeret would have the knowledge of Thor's banishment wouldn't be completely absurd. And to keep rewinding the tape to learn the incantation to do it is completely in his character, he loves control. He'll do whatever he has to do to get it.
I'll admit, I can get a little hot-tempered, especially when people act sarcastic around me, I'm a very serious person and I don't deny it. I'm not gonna try to defend my actions at this point, but usually a lot of the posts opposing the team I support, they sound very, VERY sarcastic to me, like they honestly and truly don't know who the opposing team is. The issue with the Lasso is another good point, I feel like it can be explained by a very tongue-in-cheek introduction.
"Hi, my name is Abaddon, I am the crusher of souls and have brought entire galaxies to their knees. My soul is pitch black, there is nothing you can do to make me regret ANY of my decisions, My Will is that of the Chaos Gods!"
See? That kind of gets to the point. I guess the point was lost in heated debate on other things (Like WW and Thor's Absurd power levels...)
And Then arguing your character is Invincible, I can admit... I've done it once or twice. Wasn't trying to argue permanent invincibility all the time though, Terminator Armor literally is like Wearing a Tank, A Tank with a Shield Around it... A Shield made more powerful by a blessing from Tzeentch... Sure, it only works part of the time, against hits strong enough to negate his armor, but still. it's like 30% ineffective, regarding a dice roll. There's no easy way to qualify that as a narrative piece, especially when the opposing team is claiming invincibility as well.
I never wholly believed Thor or Abaddon would one-shot each other, I said things in the heat of the moment I wish I could take back (hmm....I could've used the edit button, but it was too late and people had replied to me already. oh well) But seeing Thor take a knife to the gut in Avengers, and freaking the hell out when he was falling to the ground, make me believe he fears dying just as much as we do as humans... Honestly, it would take the intervention of their teammates to decide the battle, they could fight for DAYS... Seriously...
I'm done for now, gotta get up early, Hopefully I didn't tick anyone off this this post, however, naturally, people are going to ignore me or take anything I say as hysteric desperation.... So let it be as it may.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
Yeah, I have no problem seeing Teams 10, 13, 16, and 18 dropping out of the tournament.
Round 2 will be largely unaffected by this proposed change, if enacted, as Teams 13, 16 and 18 have already fought, and Team 10 is in the TOU. A case has been made for Team 18 to keep them, and Plaguefeather admits his mistakes in the past thread. Should we remove Teams 13 and 16, we would have two spaces to fill in the Tournament, but at least it's an even number and I can essentially allow one or two random teams a free pass in Round 3 because their opponents were DQ'd.
These are just proposals, however, and there is still time to discuss this. The matches for next week shouldn't have any problems, from what I can tell.
Until such time that we can reach a reasonable consensus about dropping teams or modifying the rules, the Tournament as a whole, as it is, will remain in effect, though certain rules which are now clarified in The Codex will be implemented (or rather, re-implemented) effective immediately. It's a work in progress, and I hope that we can continue getting feedback from everyone.
I'd like to add another class of information (which is kind of a specialised version of limited information): "Practical opponent information."
Taking this suggestion, as well as the comments of TheEndIsNear, I added all your input in The Codex under Section V, Article 2, Clause b, first, second, third and fourth bullet points. Have a look.
I also changed the wording of "character" to "participant" to make things clearer from a legal perspective.
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.1) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
b) Voters - Members of the forum participating in the tournament by nominating, supporting or otherwise posting their opinions on any matches in the tournament, regardless of whether or not they vote using any of the methods outlined in Section III of The Codex.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
d) Borderline Cases - Situations that may come up over the course of the tournament left up to the referee’s discretion to decide. These, like many situations that could come up in the tournament, need to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be single-elimination, round robin, or any other format selected by the referee.
f) Round - A set of versus matches in which participants may or may not be eliminated and move on to the next round, in the case of a single-elimination tournament and the like.
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
II. Participant Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the participant from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the participant in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the participant being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may not include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the participant uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Above Average Power - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Non-Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) Arguments Involving Minions - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any allies or summons, living, undead, elemental, technologically artificially intelligent and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) Arguments Involving Vehicles - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a participant would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the poll by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match, left up to the referee’s discretion to decide..
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that participant will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins. It may be any of the following choices:
Public Unspecialized Knowledge - This limited information includes only knowledge which is commonly known to the public in the participant’s home universe, including rumors, hearsay or urban legends, and the like, or
Private Specialized Knowledge - This limited information includes only specialized knowledge known commonly to the participant’s regular opponents, allies, or both in the participant’s home universe, or
Both Private and Public Unspecialized and Specialized Knowledge - In which both public unspecialized knowledge and private specialized knowledge are made known about the participant, in principle only excluding any information that are kept almost totally confidential by the participant, or
Other Information - Any other information that could be disclosed, left up to the referee’s discretion to decide.
c) Unlimited Information - All information on all opponents are instantly made available and made directly known to the participants before the match begins.
Again, comments on improving The Codex are very much welcome!
I wish to rename your classifications based on the heros we are going to have fighing City Class (LW) - Normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities (examples: Batman, Spiderman). Typicaly people who save a city from destruction/takeover/problems.
Nation Class (MW) - Greater than human ability, either mutant, monster or alien, and with minor superhuman powers (examples:, Captin America, Most Xmen). Typicaly saves Nations (or threatens nations)
World Class (HW) - Very powerful, but few, superhuman abilities, or alternately, very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but not both (examples: Starfire, Human Torch, Hulk, Dr Doom).People who threaten the very world itself/powerful enough to save the whole world
Galaxyclass (SHW) - Very powerful, and very many, superhuman abilities (examples: Superman prime, Martian Manhunter, Thor, Green Lantern, Gaxctis). These mighty hero/villeins tend to threaten/save the entire Universe.
I like it, but as Fluffy_Bunny pointed out, this tier system relies on looking at their opponents rather than looking at their own power levels. I mean, true, sometimes we measure characters by their opponents, but I thought it was generally agreed upon that a character's individual strength would be the measuring stick for their tier.
Under your proposed tier, consider the following:
Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent are LWs, or at most MWs, according to their source material (Only threatened Agrabah and two kingdoms, which may or may not be nationwide coverage).
Captain America and Hawkeye are MWs, or even arguably HWs, according to their source material (routinely save the United States or the entire world, which is clearly within MW to HW range).
Kirby, Yoda and King Mickey are SHWs (Defenders of multiple worlds, and therefore the galaxies of their universe, and very clearly in SHW range).
Hmmm... I don't know. Not all heroes and villains have the same goals, but scaling might be a good idea. However, it brings us back to arguments like "Participant X has beaten God (in their home universe)", which still leaves a bit to be desired on the equality scale.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I'm double posting, but I hope people forgive me for doing so, as these are my proposed solutions for the current state of the Tournament.
After giving it much thought and reading the feedback and responses, I'm going to propose three potential solutions, and I hope you will all give feedback regarding these:
Solution I: Disqualification and Replacement
In this proposed solution, Teams Chaotic Genius, Mythology, Human Mental Prowess and Smash will be disqualified from participating due to numerous complaints about their power level. Taking their places in the TOC and TOU shall be Crazy Supernatural Killers (for both Mythology and Chaotic Genius), Final Fantasy Villains (for Human Mental Prowess), and the original team Badass (for Smash; because the poetic irony is exquisite). This stabilizes the TOC while leaving two slots open in the TOU, but one will be taken by Neo-Badass, and the other one will be given to a team allowed to randomly pass into the next round without a fight.
The drawbacks of this solution would be that if this were allowed, then it could very well lead to calls to ban the next best team. If we begin DQing now, there's no telling what could be nominated for DQ next.
Solution II: Restart
This option involves a complete overhaul of the tournament, starting from scratch.
The drawbacks for this are numerous, both on my part and on everyone elses. I would honeslty prefer any other option to restarting the whole tournament using the propositions by those who suggested it, because it would be too impractical and cumbersome to do so, and The Codex still needs development. Until such ground rules can be clarified and detailed, and unless everyone is willing to re-nominate and create write ups for their teams within a week, this solution would not be economically beneficial to the majority of members of the forum, and would put the tournament on hold for an indefinite time frame.
Solution III: Strict Sources
The other option is to simply use the movie, TV show and tabletop versions of the characters in the DQ list from this point onwards, and to follow that power level set strictly, no outliers and no further evidence.
The drawbacks for this would mean relative inflexibility for arguments and sources, as well as the sudden depowering of certain characters who have made it thus far with the help of their source material. It will need much intervention should anyone break this rule repeatedly, and multiple sanctions may occur until we figure out which sources are canon enough to be considered valid for everyone to use.
As of now, these are the three most popular potential solutions. Each has its own drawbacks, and own advantages. The two matches for this week are still open to votes, Plaguefeather has been requested to refrain from expressing opinions on the "TOC Round 2, Match 2" thread until it resolves, and until such time that decisions are made regarding these crucial matters, the TOC shall function as it always has until now.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think we can all agree that all of the team's are relatively evenly-powered now, depending on who they fight against.
I vote for Solution I.
To propose an opposing point of view, I'd like to point out the power disparities in the TOC and TOU should this happen.
If the TOC/TOU goes with Solution I, the rosters for both tiers will look like this:
TOC Teams:
Moving to Round 3: "Final Fantasy Villains" and "Crazy Supernatural Killers"
Teams left to fight in Round 2:
1. "Wizard Guide",
2. "By Your Powers Combined"
3. "Metal Men"
4. "Justice For All"
5. "Fun Size"
6. "Rescue the Princess"
7. "Electromagnetic Pulse"
8. "Micro Mech"
9. "Aimbot"
10. "Way of the Warrior"
11. "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers"
12. "I'm Not A Hero"
TOU Teams:
Moving to Round 3: "Disney Villains" and whichever team wins Match 2 (either "Godslayer" or "Suplex Machine")
Teams left to fight in Round 2:
1. "Cybernetic Cannon"
2. "Badass"
3. "Speed"
4. "Pest Control Problem"
5. "Basketballers"
6. "Psychic Monsters"
7. "Assassins"
8. "The Vampire Slayers"
9. "Viva la Revolution"
10. "Insane"
11. "Neo-Badass"
12. Free Pass*
*The team that should have fought "Crazy Supernatural Killers" will be given a free pass to the next round.
If everyone finds the relative power levels fair for both the TOC and TOU, then Solution I continues to be viable. However, removing "Smash" and "Crazy Supernatural Killers" takes two big names away from the TOU, which may or may not skew the power levels of teams in that tier even further.
Still, up to you all. I'll just argue for and against each case accordingly.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I actually dont think anyone needs DQ'ing (characters) but I do think stricter ruling needs to be in place. It's fairly easy to use for instance New-52 Wonderwoman, or marvel-now Thor rather than the sum of every comic dating back 60 years.
However I would actually think DQ'ing teams would lead to more problems .... seriously I don't want another thread of "OMGWTFBBQ Kefka is God of magic so wins by using every spell in existence to win by default".... at least Doom and Lex are humans with interesting internal monologue
I'd much rather see the challenges moderated based on interest and fun.
If someone comes up with a great long well thought out scenario post then brilliant we all have fun reading it and that vote whether right or wrong was worth it.
Any 1 sided complete curbstomp (not involving jaime lannister ofc) should be subject to porings wrath ! (TM pending)
I will use me as an example, I avoided using stuff like Tri-force or God-Masks because it makes battle dull. The whole point is in the challenge not the win, a well thought out fair piece is far more likely to sway votes also.
I would personally love to keep everyone in the tournament, as this is the easiest of the solutions and also wouldn't necessarily remove any teams which would otherwise be very interesting to let compete. The argument against Solution I is valid in that if we start to DQ teams it could lead to a ripple effect leading to further DQs.
However, not everyone is as level headed as Belgareth is when it comes to arguing. That, coupled with the numerous petitions for disqualification, leads me to believe that many of us think it would take an extreme amount of control to try and steer the arguments intelligently and in the direction for the battle. While I would love to do this for every match, I can't give them all equal attention at all times, since I'm also busy with my Master Thesis, and I want to graduate in October.
Nonetheless, logistically, it is still the best solution to keep all the teams, but it would also mean a greater degree of control on my part, as well as an underlying requirement of more responsible argumentation on behalf of the members of the forum. This logic was what guided the tournament before, but if people think that this is failing, a different take might be required...
Of course, I could always counter arguments using The Codex. That would save me some time. I just quote, site the relevant article in The Codex, and enforce the rules accordingly.
Examples:
Yeah, well in one comic, Ms. Zomg managed to eat the sun. Explain that! So what if she never did it in the TV series?
Refer to Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c when citing secondary and tertiary sources.
Peaceful Pacifist Man uses his powers to murder his opponent, just because he can!
Refer to Section II, Article 3, Clause a when citing potentially out of character arguments.
Dr. Darkman can summon hordes of infernal spawns of evil to destroy his opponents without breaking a sweat himself!
Refer to Section II, Article 3, Clause e, and be warned that this Tournament doesn't allow the summoning or general usage of minions.
You are all pitiful nabs! Tremble before the omnipotent might of Ms. Amamajamalambala as she took possession of the Neverending Hammer of Sparkling Doom!
Refer to Section II, Article 3, Clauses c and d, and be warned that arguments like this are highly discouraged in the tournament.
I vote for Team "Epic" because I the other team smells like fish. Trololol.
Violation of the Preamble and warning for trolling.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I will offer again since you think I'm so level headed and fair to assist you in running the tournament when you need help.
Your masters is very important (what subject are you reading) so I don't want any extra work on this for you , it should be relaxation not a job .
Trust me I was running this site during my degree and it took a lot of time away from studies when it shouldn't have luckily I am adept at cramming but my point stands , please do whats best for you not us.
I can't speak for everyone but you have re-invigorated this little sub forum for me and for that I am grateful.
I appreciate the offer for help, but I also don't want to take your time either, though I would appreciate it if you continued to do what you are currently doing by stepping in and expressing opinions, or calling me out if my decisions are unfair or unwarranted.
International Business & Law, by the way.
Also, it's my pleasure to try and bring some fun to the Forum.
I just hope my work doesn't stop anyone else from trying to post a versus match, if most of the attention goes to the Tournament... this is not my intention. I don't want to have a monopoly over the sub-forum.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I think (and believe I said in the thread) that a degree of power leveling is better than DQing.
I definately think having somewhere where it says "This is post-crisis wonderwoman, pre-crisis batman, adventure of the amazing pants Thor, tabletop abbadon" or whatever is very necessary.
I think (and believe I said in the thread) that a degree of power leveling is better than DQing.
I definately think having somewhere where it says "This is post-crisis wonderwoman, pre-crisis batman, adventure of the amazing pants Thor, tabletop abbadon" or whatever is very necessary.
Going with that, how about this:
All Marvel Characters are from the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU)
All DC Characters are from the DC Animated Universe (DCAU)
Comic books and Heroclix are secondary and tertiary sources for Marvel and DC characters according to Section II, Article 2, Clause b and c of The Codex.
Now for each team:
1. Team "Way of the Warrior" - Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kenshin Himura
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels, Samurai X and Rurouni Kenshin Anime Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
2. Team "Cybernetic Cannon" - Mega Man X and Samus Aran
Primary Sources: Megaman X and Metroid Video Games
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
3. Team "Justice For All" - Gideon Jura and Captain America
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels and the MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
4. Team "Godslayer" - Dante (Dante's Inferno) and Kratos
Primary Sources: Dante's Inferno and God of War Video Games
Secondary Sources: Dante's Divine Comedy, Greek Mythology
Tertiary Sources: ???
5. Team "Badass" - Jaime Lannister and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
Primary Sources: Song of Fire and Ice and Game of Thrones, Dune Novels and Movies
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
6. Team "Basketballers" - Shaq and Barkley
Primary Sources: Shaq Fu and Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden
Secondary Sources: Real Life
Tertiary Sources: ???
7. Team "Viva la Revolution" - Amon and V
Primary Sources: Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series, V for Vendetta Comic Book and Movie
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
8. Team "By Your Powers Combined" - Captain Planet and Avatar Aang
Primary Sources: Captain Planet and the Planeteers, Avatar: The Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
9. Team "Electromagnetic Pulse" - Magneto and Static
Primary Sources: MCU, DCAU, Static Shock
Secondary Sources: Heroclix, Young Justice
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books, Marvel vs. Capcom
10. Team "Smash" - Doomsday and Hulk
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
11. Team "Wizard Guide" - Gandalf the White and Albus Dumbledore
Primary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Movies and Books
Secondary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Video Games
Tertiary Sources: ???
12. Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
Primary Sources: Final Fantasy Video Games and Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
13. Team "Mythology" - Wonder Woman and Thor
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
14. Team "Rescue the Princess" - Mario and Link
Primary Sources: Super Mario Bros. and Legend of Zelda Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
15. Team "Crazy Supernatural Killers" - Dante (Devil May Cry) and Bayonetta
Primary Sources: Devil May Cry and Bayonetta Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Devil May Cry Manga and Anime Series
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
16. Team "Human Mental Prowess" - Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor
Primary Sources: Fantastic Four Television Series and DCAU
Secondary Sources: MCU (only because Dr. Doom in the comics is nothing like in the F4 movies), Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
17. Team "Dark Lords" - Emperor Palpatine and Lord Voldemort
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movie Series and Harry Potter Books and Movies
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
18. Team "Chaotic Genius" - Abaddon, The Despoiler and Tezzeret, The Seeker
Primary Sources: Warhammer 40k Tabletop Game, MTG
Secondary Sources: Warhammer 40k Lore
Tertiary Sources: ???
19. Team "Disney Villains" - Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent
Primary Sources: Aladdin and Sleeping Beauty Disney Animated Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: Traditional Fairy Tales
20. Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
Primary Sources: MTG and the Pokémon TV Series and Movies
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Pokémon Video Games and TCG
Tertiary Sources: ???
21. Team "Aimbot" - Legolas and Hawkeye
Primary Sources: LOTR Books and Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: LOTR Video Games, Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
22. Team "The Vampire Slayers" - Buffy and Blade
Primary Sources: Buffy The Vampire Slayer TV Series, MCU
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Vampire Folklore
23. Team "Metal Men" - Iron Man and Boba Fett
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
24. Team "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers!" - Batman and The Punisher
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
25. Team "Pest Control Problem" - Mighty Mouse and King Mickey Mouse (Kingdom Hearts)
Primary Sources: Mighty Mouse Cartoon Series, Kingdom Hearts Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Disney Animated Canon
26. Team "Fun Size" - Yoda and Kirby
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, Kirby Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Star Wars Books and EU, Kirby of the Stars/Kirby: Right Back At Ya! (Hoshi no Kaabii; Kirby Anime)
Tertiary Sources: ???
27. Team "I'm Not A Hero" - Dr. McCay and Wolverine
Primary Sources: Star Gate TV Series and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
28. Team "Speed" - The Flash (Wally West) and Sonic the Hedgehog
Primary Sources: DCAU and Sonic Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Teen Titans, Young Justice, Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
29. Team "Insane" - The Joker and The Green Goblin
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: The Dark Knight Movie, Spider Man Animated Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
30. Team "Assassins" - Ezio Auditore and Grey Fox
Primary Sources: Assassin's Creed and Metal Gear Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: European History
31. Team "Micro Mech" - Human Replicator Samantha Carter and Borg-Infested Captain Picard
Primary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate TV Series
Secondary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate Novels
Tertiary Sources: ???
32. Team "Suplex Machine" - Mike Haggar and King
Primary Sources: Final Fight and the Tekken Series
Secondary Sources: Professional Wrestling
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom 3
33. Team "Neo-Badass" - Komato Assassin Asha and Hiei/Vincent
Primary Sources: Iji and Yu Yu Hakusho/Ghost Fighter
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
If we go for power leveling, any help filling out the above list would be great.
(Oh, and I'll take Belgareth's suggestion and use pink. I like it.)
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Is it just me or Team Psychic powers seems really strong?
Yes, it seems they put the TOU tier out of order. They were beaten in Round 1, narrowly, by none other than Doom and Lex.
Which is my biggest concern if we DQ. If we do DQ, the Psychic Monsters might very well be next in line, or it won't be fair for the rest of the TOU... though I firmly stand that there are teams who could concievably beat them, but even then...
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I'm all for keeping this tourny running as is (with no DQ's), but with the power level suggestions now put in place.
Personally, since the beginning I've assumed certain power levels for each participant (i.e. no Superman/Goku = gotcha, check) and when thinking about each team I know what level/version I have in mind. I think its fair to say that you (and others) just generally knew what was acceptable and what was outrageous.
Of course everyone also has his/her own version in mind, and that is where things begin to deteriorate.
For examples:
I was only familiar with the Death of Superman version of Doomsday. I know they made a movie, I know he fought Supes again in the comics... but I had no friggin' idea he couldn't be beaten the same way twice, etc.
I had no idea comic book Flash did those things.
I was mostly in the dark about Thor until his movie and the Avengers.
With that said, there is one thing we should keep in mind when dealing with such characters:
No character is unbeatable. Ever. (let the sparks fly with that statement.. :p)
At any rate, with the Codex in place... things should run smoothly from here on out, right?
Oh, and sorry for being so quiet recently: Thursday most of the day was spent catching up on the Battle That Shall Not Be Named, among other threads.
Yesterday I caught up further and even had a lengthy post typed out; alas, do to a moment of idiocy it was accidentally cancelled and irretrievable. :/ The biggest DOH!-moment I've had in a long time.
(about the English language) It's kinda like a raft that was cobbled together from parts of three different boats and since then has been kept barely afloat with crude repairs every time a leak appeared.
This fight would be EXTREMELY entertaining, as all 4 competitors are evenly matched. Dante and Sephiroth are about on par (with sephiroth being a little more powerful as a swordsman) And Kefka and Bayonetta would be a stalemate as their magics would collide and they wouldn't be able to land a hit on each other.
Yes, it seems they put the TOU tier out of order. They were beaten in Round 1, narrowly, by none other than Doom and Lex.
Actually, Bolas and Mewtwo were beaten by Team FFV if i'm not mistaken? In Round 1 Doom and Lex managed to beat Voldemort and Darth Sidious (I don't even know how...)
Just figured i'd correct that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
I think the main thing to do would be to try to keep the powers in check. For instance the flash being the flash would whip any magic user I can come up with from outside of comics because most magic users cant move that fast and would get punched in the face before they could twitch. How do you kill something that moves so fast you cant see it? On the other hand if we assume Iron Man has much more human move speed... how does his armor help him at all if some kind of wizard throws a spell his way?
I think the biggest issue we are facing here is that sometimes characters just are not that compatible especially when they come from different "universes". It similar to the Star Trek VS Star Wars problem. The scales on the product are just different. Star Wars in canon has Star Trek way out scaled in terms of weapon power levels, travel speed and Universe size. But if you ignore the "numbers" and just go with "hey they both have space ships with shields and lasers" and focus on their commanders, extra toys and aspects outside of which one has the more powerful laser, you could have a more reasonable debate.
City Class (LW) - Normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities (examples: Batman, Spiderman). Typicaly people who save a city from destruction/takeover/problems.
Nation Class (MW) - Greater than human ability, either mutant, monster or alien, and with minor superhuman powers (examples:, Captin America, Most Xmen). Typicaly saves Nations (or threatens nations)
World Class (HW) - Very powerful, but few, superhuman abilities, or alternately, very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but not both (examples: Starfire, Human Torch, Hulk, Dr Doom).People who threaten the very world itself/powerful enough to save the whole world
Galaxyclass (SHW) - Very powerful, and very many, superhuman abilities (examples: Superman prime, Martian Manhunter, Thor, Green Lantern, Gaxctis). These mighty hero/villeins tend to threaten/save the entire Universe.
My vote goes to Doom
He will make you go kaboom
Some seem to think he cannot be overcome
However, that's just his fandom
He will probably lose when we resume
(Im not good at this)
Just being that guy but... What does that do to guys like Star Wars Characters? Technically they are saving/destroying galaxies but I assume we arent going to be entering "Darth Vader in his Death Star" as a contestant.
I'll be keeping this thread open for as long as it needs to until we get enough feedback to iron things out more.
After reading your posts, I have compiled a list of rules in the form of a Codex, which I hope you can all take the time to read and give feedback on, as I tried to incorporate as many suggestions from all of you as possible.
If The Codex checks out (and we can still develop it over time), we can also use it in the future as a template for any further TOCs that any of you may wish to host.
Now to reply to some interesting posts...
I took note of this suggestion and added this in The Codex under "Arguments of Average Power". It's a good idea, Catmurderer! Thank you for this!
True. The write ups could have been clearer... and apologize for the lack of oversight. To remedy this, I added your valuable input in the Codex under "Source Materials". This has to be made very clear from the very beginning, also to decide which sources we can use to argue.
Changing the "Dual Voting System" to a regular one is a bit of a fundamental change, so I'll have to ask everyone else if they are alright with that, but I personally wouldn't mind, since I can concentrate on post arguments and then people really would have to post something. On the other hand, I don't want to alienate those who wish to remain anonymous... hmmm...
I added suggestions to the voting system in The Codex as well. We can decide on that together.
Appreciate the support, Belgareth!
I added the "fair play" portion of your post to the "Preamble" of The Codex. I think it should be a fundamental rule, so thanks for that!
I also agree that people need to post a decent reason to vote, so I included that in the "Post Voting" section of the codex.
As for imposing lock outs or bans... well, I guess maybe I should take a more active hand in matches from now on, so I'll do my best and rely on you all to call me out if I abuse it.
Thank you for your input! It would take much longer to restart the tournament using the method you suggested to simply finishing it, but I do appreciate that as an option! Maybe we will use it if we decide to start from scratch. As for your seconding of giving me mod powers for my thread, I hope you also stick around to check my powers so I don't go overboard (should I decide to use them).
First, Plaguefeather, thanks for giving your opinion. I can see your points and you are not entirely wrong for what you are saying, but I have to admit, there are some of us, myself included, who feel that you might have overstepped it a little in the current match. I understand that you are supporting your team, and that it was up against a team with a vast array of resources from years of comic books, but still, a lot of your posts could have been more neutral.
Please don't take my warning personally when I tell you that for this match and all future matches, I expect you to relax a bit more, and to please be more respectful to everyone with an opinion which doesn't coincide with yours. Just doing my job, alright?
Your opinion on a better voting system was also incorporated into The Codex. People should provide reasons to vote.
As for the restart, we'll consider it. The problem with restarting is that, logistically speaking, finding the most time efficient way to do so would be tasking...
Thank you so much, Stardust!
Currently, my mindset is to keep the tournament going to learn as much as possible about developing a set of rules so that future tournaments may have a better and more organized shot at survival. If this means I have to take a more active hand, then I suppose I must. As for the rules overlay, I incorporated Catmurderer's suggestion, as well as your perspective and feedback, into The Codex. Hope this checks out with both of you.
Thank you, draftguy2! I'm all for finishing what I began. I think we can still learn a valuable lesson or two. As for the wiki links and support, this is normally where I call the original nominators to step in, though some of them, unfortunately, are no longer with the MTGS community, so acquring better knowledge may prove difficult. Still, the provisions for better write ups stands. I encourage people to now submit new ones for their teams, if possible.
Also, I added the encouraging of write ups in The Codex, as well as an option as to what to use as sources. Thanks for your input!
Will do right after this post, Iso.
Thank you, TheEndIsNear! I think we can actually use this as an opportunity to lay down some real rules, which could also benefit the Versus Forum in the future.
On your point of comic book characters being DQ'd... yes, it does seem that their sheer depth of resources puts them at a priviledged advantage. As such, to counter this, I've decided to divide sources into tiers as well. Maybe this will mitigate it without necessarily disqualifying them. You can see this in the "Sources" part of The Codex. Thanks for your input!
Just for this post, I will now consider any vote using this style to be valid.
Now for The Codex... please comment on this!
I incorporated as many suggestions from all of you as possible, as well as your points in threads and what I observed from the versus matches so far. Please feel free to scrutinize this set of rules, as this could be the groundwork for all future matches for the tournament, or any other in the future that wishes to use it:
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.0) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
b) Voters - Members of the forum participating in the tournament by nominating, supporting or otherwise posting their opinions on any matches in the tournament, regardless of whether or not they vote using any of the methods outlined in Section III of The Codex.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
d) Borderline Cases - Situations that may come up over the course of the tournament left up to the referee’s discretion to decide. These, like many situations that could come up in the tournament, need to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be single-elimination, round robin, or any other format selected by the referee.
f) Round - A set of versus matches in which participants may or may not be eliminated and move on to the next round, in the case of a single-elimination tournament and the like.
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
II. Character Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the character from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the character in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the character being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the character uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Average Power- Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) The No Minions Rule - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any allies or summons, living, undead, elemental, technologically artificially intelligent and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) The No Vehicles Rule - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a character would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the poll by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match.
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that character will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins.
c) Unlimited Information - All information on all opponents are instantly made available and made directly known to the participants before the match begins.
So basically, The TOC and TOU will use the following rules of The Codex:
All of Sections 0 and I
Section II, Article 2, Clauses a and b
Section II, Article 3, Clauses a, b, c, d, and e
Section III, Article 1, Clause c (using the modified post voting in b)
Section IV, Article 1, Clause c
Section IV, Article 2
Section V, Article 1, Clause c
Section V, Article 2, Clause c
Further suggestions and opinions are encouraged.
Also, I'll put The Codex and list of TOC and TOU teams in the OP.
How well do you do against one?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Fixed that for you.
I don't see why 18 needs to be dropped. If you go by their pure abilities, and not what some random je says they can do, they are strong, but balanced ~ish.
Abaddon is strong. Like really strong. And fast and all. There are stronger beings than him. He is tough too. His armour (Terminator armour) is one of the toughest around, the equivalent of wearing a tank. His weapon is essentially a rocket launcher machine gun. But what makes him stand out is that he is a brilliant strategist. Realistically, without his armor, lets say he is as strong as an elephant*, I could see Batman being able to take on a Human with an Elephant like strength.
What I'm trying to say, he isn't busted on Thor/WW/Hulk/Flash level.
* I don't have the most up to date chaos codex, just the two before it, but I've never read of Abaddon being praised for his martial prowess more than others. He is a commander of a Space Marine Legions. But he is on par with the other Leader of Legions. He isn't as strong as a Carnifex or even a Hive Tyrant. He Has exacltly the stats of a Space Marine Chaos Lord + 1 of every Mark + equipment. He isn't magically buffed beyond that.
Take a hero like, say, batman. Assume that before the match start, the other team get to sit down for an hour or so with half a dozen random villians who fight batman regularly. The villians will tell them anything they could reasonably know about Batman - his habits, his fighting style, his gadgets etc. They won't tell the opponent that batman is secretly bruce wayne, or other things they don't have any plausible way of knowing.
This gets around a whole series of one-shot kills (knowing peoples true names, for instance, is essentially a fatality for a variety of pro-or-an tagonists) or some of the most crazy schemes (trying to cut thor off from Mjollner) but still gives a fair bit of info.
Some of them do know his secret identity but won't reveal it. Do they go all out?
How about we go you'd know what the public knows. The Public doesn't know batman's powers. This makes it cool as mysterious characters would be more mysterious than Superman type characters that everyone knows. The people of the city of the punisher might know an urban legend about him, so those who fae him wouldn't know much concrete stuff. Superman who everyone knows his abilities would have every opponent know his stuff for example.
I'd like to bring up point about Abaddon's Strength.
The latest 'dex switched the strength modifier, mainly because now close-combat weapons have their own weapon profiles. But, now Drach'Nyen doesn't confer the double strength bonus, no, The Talon of Horus does though, and the rules they gave it are completely fair. Now it's ap3, Shred, Str: x2. Drach'nyen changed to Str +1, Ap2, Specialist Daemon Weapon.
Honestly, I haven't gotten to use the new Abaddon on Tabletop (I'm partial to my old lists, I haven't given 6th edition a fair chance I suppose...) But Abaddon in the Previous book still had some of the same special rules, now he's just better at fighting Space Marines (due to him giving him and his retinue Preferred enemy: Space Marines.) He still has EW, etc. They just buffed his abilities a bit more, and nerfed the sword, whilst boosting the Talon.
I dunno, I've read some interesting points, mostly coming from Stardust and yourself TheEndisNear.
So, Under the new codeces of rules, Which characters lose the most?
Obviously, now we have to determine specifically what timeline certain characters come from. So now Doom isn't godlike having Hulk-strength + Destroyer Armor + All of Magic = Godhood. This will more likely be something like = Doom from Fantastic Four Movie 1. Or etc.
Honestly, it seems like there's still something there to be abused, but I can't see it right now. Only when someone exploits it will we know. Which is the sad part.
I think we need to re-examine how we determine Terrains for the fights as well. Like, pick 3 terrains hand-selected, then roll a d3 to determine which one they'll fight on. Or have people vote on it.
Honestly, I've actually been thinking about characters i'd really love to nominate for teams (which is partially why I voted for the restart, Intersting team ups I've got swirling in my brain, One of them is in the TOC2 thread... ) The only reasons I nominated who I did was because I saw Power Levels, and I didn't have enough time to think about anyone else...
So I just took two of my favorite characters from my two favorite games, and teamed them up. (Yes, I'm an Artificer at heart, Tezzeret will always be my favorite Planeswalker.) Which is why I got offended when people said he was too weak and they just one-shot him.
Also, My last couple posts in the current thread were trying to play it as a narrative almost, I set up a conversation between Thor and Tezzeret, What with the effects of the terrain (knowledge loss, having cards taken from your hand equates to you losing knowledge.) It's in Tezzeret's character to recognize the effects like that and try to exploit them. Thor and WW would be feeling the same thing, I'm not sure what Abaddon would do, but since Tezzeret looks similar to himself, I'm sure he wouldn't attack him, and go for the two looking like goody-two-shoes.
Point is, I presented an argument, I wasn't trying to issue it as fact, but they do learn about their opponent's beforehand, Thinking tezzeret would have the knowledge of Thor's banishment wouldn't be completely absurd. And to keep rewinding the tape to learn the incantation to do it is completely in his character, he loves control. He'll do whatever he has to do to get it.
I'll admit, I can get a little hot-tempered, especially when people act sarcastic around me, I'm a very serious person and I don't deny it. I'm not gonna try to defend my actions at this point, but usually a lot of the posts opposing the team I support, they sound very, VERY sarcastic to me, like they honestly and truly don't know who the opposing team is. The issue with the Lasso is another good point, I feel like it can be explained by a very tongue-in-cheek introduction.
"Hi, my name is Abaddon, I am the crusher of souls and have brought entire galaxies to their knees. My soul is pitch black, there is nothing you can do to make me regret ANY of my decisions, My Will is that of the Chaos Gods!"
See? That kind of gets to the point. I guess the point was lost in heated debate on other things (Like WW and Thor's Absurd power levels...)
And Then arguing your character is Invincible, I can admit... I've done it once or twice. Wasn't trying to argue permanent invincibility all the time though, Terminator Armor literally is like Wearing a Tank, A Tank with a Shield Around it... A Shield made more powerful by a blessing from Tzeentch... Sure, it only works part of the time, against hits strong enough to negate his armor, but still. it's like 30% ineffective, regarding a dice roll. There's no easy way to qualify that as a narrative piece, especially when the opposing team is claiming invincibility as well.
I never wholly believed Thor or Abaddon would one-shot each other, I said things in the heat of the moment I wish I could take back (hmm....I could've used the edit button, but it was too late and people had replied to me already. oh well) But seeing Thor take a knife to the gut in Avengers, and freaking the hell out when he was falling to the ground, make me believe he fears dying just as much as we do as humans... Honestly, it would take the intervention of their teammates to decide the battle, they could fight for DAYS... Seriously...
I'm done for now, gotta get up early, Hopefully I didn't tick anyone off this this post, however, naturally, people are going to ignore me or take anything I say as hysteric desperation.... So let it be as it may.
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Round 2 will be largely unaffected by this proposed change, if enacted, as Teams 13, 16 and 18 have already fought, and Team 10 is in the TOU. A case has been made for Team 18 to keep them, and Plaguefeather admits his mistakes in the past thread. Should we remove Teams 13 and 16, we would have two spaces to fill in the Tournament, but at least it's an even number and I can essentially allow one or two random teams a free pass in Round 3 because their opponents were DQ'd.
These are just proposals, however, and there is still time to discuss this. The matches for next week shouldn't have any problems, from what I can tell.
Until such time that we can reach a reasonable consensus about dropping teams or modifying the rules, the Tournament as a whole, as it is, will remain in effect, though certain rules which are now clarified in The Codex will be implemented (or rather, re-implemented) effective immediately. It's a work in progress, and I hope that we can continue getting feedback from everyone.
Taking this suggestion, as well as the comments of TheEndIsNear, I added all your input in The Codex under Section V, Article 2, Clause b, first, second, third and fourth bullet points. Have a look.
I also changed the wording of "character" to "participant" to make things clearer from a legal perspective.
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.1) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
b) Voters - Members of the forum participating in the tournament by nominating, supporting or otherwise posting their opinions on any matches in the tournament, regardless of whether or not they vote using any of the methods outlined in Section III of The Codex.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
d) Borderline Cases - Situations that may come up over the course of the tournament left up to the referee’s discretion to decide. These, like many situations that could come up in the tournament, need to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be single-elimination, round robin, or any other format selected by the referee.
f) Round - A set of versus matches in which participants may or may not be eliminated and move on to the next round, in the case of a single-elimination tournament and the like.
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
II. Participant Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the participant from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the participant in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the participant being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may not include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the participant uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Above Average Power - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Non-Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) Arguments Involving Minions - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any allies or summons, living, undead, elemental, technologically artificially intelligent and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) Arguments Involving Vehicles - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a participant would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the poll by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match, left up to the referee’s discretion to decide..
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that participant will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins. It may be any of the following choices:
Again, comments on improving The Codex are very much welcome!
Oh, and I forgot to address this...
I like it, but as Fluffy_Bunny pointed out, this tier system relies on looking at their opponents rather than looking at their own power levels. I mean, true, sometimes we measure characters by their opponents, but I thought it was generally agreed upon that a character's individual strength would be the measuring stick for their tier.
Under your proposed tier, consider the following:
Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent are LWs, or at most MWs, according to their source material (Only threatened Agrabah and two kingdoms, which may or may not be nationwide coverage).
Captain America and Hawkeye are MWs, or even arguably HWs, according to their source material (routinely save the United States or the entire world, which is clearly within MW to HW range).
Kirby, Yoda and King Mickey are SHWs (Defenders of multiple worlds, and therefore the galaxies of their universe, and very clearly in SHW range).
Hmmm... I don't know. Not all heroes and villains have the same goals, but scaling might be a good idea. However, it brings us back to arguments like "Participant X has beaten God (in their home universe)", which still leaves a bit to be desired on the equality scale.
How well do you do against one?
After giving it much thought and reading the feedback and responses, I'm going to propose three potential solutions, and I hope you will all give feedback regarding these:
Solution I: Disqualification and Replacement
In this proposed solution, Teams Chaotic Genius, Mythology, Human Mental Prowess and Smash will be disqualified from participating due to numerous complaints about their power level. Taking their places in the TOC and TOU shall be Crazy Supernatural Killers (for both Mythology and Chaotic Genius), Final Fantasy Villains (for Human Mental Prowess), and the original team Badass (for Smash; because the poetic irony is exquisite). This stabilizes the TOC while leaving two slots open in the TOU, but one will be taken by Neo-Badass, and the other one will be given to a team allowed to randomly pass into the next round without a fight.
The drawbacks of this solution would be that if this were allowed, then it could very well lead to calls to ban the next best team. If we begin DQing now, there's no telling what could be nominated for DQ next.
Solution II: Restart
This option involves a complete overhaul of the tournament, starting from scratch.
The drawbacks for this are numerous, both on my part and on everyone elses. I would honeslty prefer any other option to restarting the whole tournament using the propositions by those who suggested it, because it would be too impractical and cumbersome to do so, and The Codex still needs development. Until such ground rules can be clarified and detailed, and unless everyone is willing to re-nominate and create write ups for their teams within a week, this solution would not be economically beneficial to the majority of members of the forum, and would put the tournament on hold for an indefinite time frame.
Solution III: Strict Sources
The other option is to simply use the movie, TV show and tabletop versions of the characters in the DQ list from this point onwards, and to follow that power level set strictly, no outliers and no further evidence.
The drawbacks for this would mean relative inflexibility for arguments and sources, as well as the sudden depowering of certain characters who have made it thus far with the help of their source material. It will need much intervention should anyone break this rule repeatedly, and multiple sanctions may occur until we figure out which sources are canon enough to be considered valid for everyone to use.
As of now, these are the three most popular potential solutions. Each has its own drawbacks, and own advantages. The two matches for this week are still open to votes, Plaguefeather has been requested to refrain from expressing opinions on the "TOC Round 2, Match 2" thread until it resolves, and until such time that decisions are made regarding these crucial matters, the TOC shall function as it always has until now.
Feedback appreciated.
How well do you do against one?
I vote for Solution I.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
To propose an opposing point of view, I'd like to point out the power disparities in the TOC and TOU should this happen.
If the TOC/TOU goes with Solution I, the rosters for both tiers will look like this:
TOC Teams:
Moving to Round 3: "Final Fantasy Villains" and "Crazy Supernatural Killers"
Teams left to fight in Round 2:
1. "Wizard Guide",
2. "By Your Powers Combined"
3. "Metal Men"
4. "Justice For All"
5. "Fun Size"
6. "Rescue the Princess"
7. "Electromagnetic Pulse"
8. "Micro Mech"
9. "Aimbot"
10. "Way of the Warrior"
11. "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers"
12. "I'm Not A Hero"
TOU Teams:
Moving to Round 3: "Disney Villains" and whichever team wins Match 2 (either "Godslayer" or "Suplex Machine")
Teams left to fight in Round 2:
1. "Cybernetic Cannon"
2. "Badass"
3. "Speed"
4. "Pest Control Problem"
5. "Basketballers"
6. "Psychic Monsters"
7. "Assassins"
8. "The Vampire Slayers"
9. "Viva la Revolution"
10. "Insane"
11. "Neo-Badass"
12. Free Pass*
*The team that should have fought "Crazy Supernatural Killers" will be given a free pass to the next round.
If everyone finds the relative power levels fair for both the TOC and TOU, then Solution I continues to be viable. However, removing "Smash" and "Crazy Supernatural Killers" takes two big names away from the TOU, which may or may not skew the power levels of teams in that tier even further.
Still, up to you all. I'll just argue for and against each case accordingly.
How well do you do against one?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would personally love to keep everyone in the tournament, as this is the easiest of the solutions and also wouldn't necessarily remove any teams which would otherwise be very interesting to let compete. The argument against Solution I is valid in that if we start to DQ teams it could lead to a ripple effect leading to further DQs.
However, not everyone is as level headed as Belgareth is when it comes to arguing. That, coupled with the numerous petitions for disqualification, leads me to believe that many of us think it would take an extreme amount of control to try and steer the arguments intelligently and in the direction for the battle. While I would love to do this for every match, I can't give them all equal attention at all times, since I'm also busy with my Master Thesis, and I want to graduate in October.
Nonetheless, logistically, it is still the best solution to keep all the teams, but it would also mean a greater degree of control on my part, as well as an underlying requirement of more responsible argumentation on behalf of the members of the forum. This logic was what guided the tournament before, but if people think that this is failing, a different take might be required...
Of course, I could always counter arguments using The Codex. That would save me some time. I just quote, site the relevant article in The Codex, and enforce the rules accordingly.
Examples:
Refer to Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c when citing secondary and tertiary sources.
Refer to Section II, Article 3, Clause a when citing potentially out of character arguments.
Refer to Section II, Article 3, Clause e, and be warned that this Tournament doesn't allow the summoning or general usage of minions.
Refer to Section II, Article 3, Clauses c and d, and be warned that arguments like this are highly discouraged in the tournament.
Violation of the Preamble and warning for trolling.
Something like that...
How well do you do against one?
I appreciate the offer for help, but I also don't want to take your time either, though I would appreciate it if you continued to do what you are currently doing by stepping in and expressing opinions, or calling me out if my decisions are unfair or unwarranted.
International Business & Law, by the way.
Also, it's my pleasure to try and bring some fun to the Forum.
I just hope my work doesn't stop anyone else from trying to post a versus match, if most of the attention goes to the Tournament... this is not my intention. I don't want to have a monopoly over the sub-forum.
How well do you do against one?
I definately think having somewhere where it says "This is post-crisis wonderwoman, pre-crisis batman, adventure of the amazing pants Thor, tabletop abbadon" or whatever is very necessary.
Going with that, how about this:
All Marvel Characters are from the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU)
All DC Characters are from the DC Animated Universe (DCAU)
Comic books and Heroclix are secondary and tertiary sources for Marvel and DC characters according to Section II, Article 2, Clause b and c of The Codex.
Now for each team:
1. Team "Way of the Warrior" - Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kenshin Himura
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels, Samurai X and Rurouni Kenshin Anime Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
2. Team "Cybernetic Cannon" - Mega Man X and Samus Aran
Primary Sources: Megaman X and Metroid Video Games
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
3. Team "Justice For All" - Gideon Jura and Captain America
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels and the MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
4. Team "Godslayer" - Dante (Dante's Inferno) and Kratos
Primary Sources: Dante's Inferno and God of War Video Games
Secondary Sources: Dante's Divine Comedy, Greek Mythology
Tertiary Sources: ???
5. Team "Badass" - Jaime Lannister and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
Primary Sources: Song of Fire and Ice and Game of Thrones, Dune Novels and Movies
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
6. Team "Basketballers" - Shaq and Barkley
Primary Sources: Shaq Fu and Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden
Secondary Sources: Real Life
Tertiary Sources: ???
7. Team "Viva la Revolution" - Amon and V
Primary Sources: Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series, V for Vendetta Comic Book and Movie
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
8. Team "By Your Powers Combined" - Captain Planet and Avatar Aang
Primary Sources: Captain Planet and the Planeteers, Avatar: The Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
9. Team "Electromagnetic Pulse" - Magneto and Static
Primary Sources: MCU, DCAU, Static Shock
Secondary Sources: Heroclix, Young Justice
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books, Marvel vs. Capcom
10. Team "Smash" - Doomsday and Hulk
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
11. Team "Wizard Guide" - Gandalf the White and Albus Dumbledore
Primary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Movies and Books
Secondary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Video Games
Tertiary Sources: ???
12. Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
Primary Sources: Final Fantasy Video Games and Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
13. Team "Mythology" - Wonder Woman and Thor
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
14. Team "Rescue the Princess" - Mario and Link
Primary Sources: Super Mario Bros. and Legend of Zelda Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
15. Team "Crazy Supernatural Killers" - Dante (Devil May Cry) and Bayonetta
Primary Sources: Devil May Cry and Bayonetta Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Devil May Cry Manga and Anime Series
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
16. Team "Human Mental Prowess" - Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor
Primary Sources: Fantastic Four Television Series and DCAU
Secondary Sources: MCU (only because Dr. Doom in the comics is nothing like in the F4 movies), Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
17. Team "Dark Lords" - Emperor Palpatine and Lord Voldemort
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movie Series and Harry Potter Books and Movies
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
18. Team "Chaotic Genius" - Abaddon, The Despoiler and Tezzeret, The Seeker
Primary Sources: Warhammer 40k Tabletop Game, MTG
Secondary Sources: Warhammer 40k Lore
Tertiary Sources: ???
19. Team "Disney Villains" - Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent
Primary Sources: Aladdin and Sleeping Beauty Disney Animated Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: Traditional Fairy Tales
20. Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
Primary Sources: MTG and the Pokémon TV Series and Movies
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Pokémon Video Games and TCG
Tertiary Sources: ???
21. Team "Aimbot" - Legolas and Hawkeye
Primary Sources: LOTR Books and Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: LOTR Video Games, Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
22. Team "The Vampire Slayers" - Buffy and Blade
Primary Sources: Buffy The Vampire Slayer TV Series, MCU
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Vampire Folklore
23. Team "Metal Men" - Iron Man and Boba Fett
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
24. Team "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers!" - Batman and The Punisher
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
25. Team "Pest Control Problem" - Mighty Mouse and King Mickey Mouse (Kingdom Hearts)
Primary Sources: Mighty Mouse Cartoon Series, Kingdom Hearts Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Disney Animated Canon
26. Team "Fun Size" - Yoda and Kirby
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, Kirby Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Star Wars Books and EU, Kirby of the Stars/Kirby: Right Back At Ya! (Hoshi no Kaabii; Kirby Anime)
Tertiary Sources: ???
27. Team "I'm Not A Hero" - Dr. McCay and Wolverine
Primary Sources: Star Gate TV Series and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
28. Team "Speed" - The Flash (Wally West) and Sonic the Hedgehog
Primary Sources: DCAU and Sonic Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Teen Titans, Young Justice, Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
29. Team "Insane" - The Joker and The Green Goblin
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: The Dark Knight Movie, Spider Man Animated Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
30. Team "Assassins" - Ezio Auditore and Grey Fox
Primary Sources: Assassin's Creed and Metal Gear Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: European History
31. Team "Micro Mech" - Human Replicator Samantha Carter and Borg-Infested Captain Picard
Primary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate TV Series
Secondary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate Novels
Tertiary Sources: ???
32. Team "Suplex Machine" - Mike Haggar and King
Primary Sources: Final Fight and the Tekken Series
Secondary Sources: Professional Wrestling
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom 3
33. Team "Neo-Badass" - Komato Assassin Asha and Hiei/Vincent
Primary Sources: Iji and Yu Yu Hakusho/Ghost Fighter
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
If we go for power leveling, any help filling out the above list would be great.
(Oh, and I'll take Belgareth's suggestion and use pink. I like it.)
How well do you do against one?
Yes, it seems they put the TOU tier out of order. They were beaten in Round 1, narrowly, by none other than Doom and Lex.
Which is my biggest concern if we DQ. If we do DQ, the Psychic Monsters might very well be next in line, or it won't be fair for the rest of the TOU... though I firmly stand that there are teams who could concievably beat them, but even then...
How well do you do against one?
I'm all for keeping this tourny running as is (with no DQ's), but with the power level suggestions now put in place.
Personally, since the beginning I've assumed certain power levels for each participant (i.e. no Superman/Goku = gotcha, check) and when thinking about each team I know what level/version I have in mind. I think its fair to say that you (and others) just generally knew what was acceptable and what was outrageous.
Of course everyone also has his/her own version in mind, and that is where things begin to deteriorate.
For examples:
I was only familiar with the Death of Superman version of Doomsday. I know they made a movie, I know he fought Supes again in the comics... but I had no friggin' idea he couldn't be beaten the same way twice, etc.
I had no idea comic book Flash did those things.
I was mostly in the dark about Thor until his movie and the Avengers.
With that said, there is one thing we should keep in mind when dealing with such characters:
No character is unbeatable. Ever. (let the sparks fly with that statement.. :p)
At any rate, with the Codex in place... things should run smoothly from here on out, right?
Oh, and sorry for being so quiet recently: Thursday most of the day was spent catching up on the Battle That Shall Not Be Named, among other threads.
Yesterday I caught up further and even had a lengthy post typed out; alas, do to a moment of idiocy it was accidentally cancelled and irretrievable. :/ The biggest DOH!-moment I've had in a long time.
Cheers!
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This x16million!!!
This fight would be EXTREMELY entertaining, as all 4 competitors are evenly matched. Dante and Sephiroth are about on par (with sephiroth being a little more powerful as a swordsman) And Kefka and Bayonetta would be a stalemate as their magics would collide and they wouldn't be able to land a hit on each other.
This match would be VERY entertaining.
Actually, Bolas and Mewtwo were beaten by Team FFV if i'm not mistaken? In Round 1 Doom and Lex managed to beat Voldemort and Darth Sidious (I don't even know how...)
Just figured i'd correct that.
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