I meant more of a "Why the hell haven't you guys seen JLU"
Ahh. I saw portions of the first Season of it and then I stopped. I had watched the previous show Justice League but I never saw the point to watching all the side story/revamp stories of Unlimited. I guess I was wrong.
Though I have to say after my brother showed me this not but twenty minutes ago this video makes a pretty good point overall. So much so I think I am simply done discussing this. Even with my doubt of Goku's speed withstanding and my vote for Supes in the poll I think the video makes a fair assessment of the debate overall. I think Superman man would win through speed, strength, heat vision, or any combination of these but if Goku got him with an attack he would win given enough time for powering up, of course. I'm done here, happy debating folks.
WOAH WOAH, too many posts. I'll address the two videos that were posted.
But first. Sioux, your arguments are strong (hehe) and you almost manage to convince me. By that I eman I go, I guess super could win, until I realise he's fighting SSJ4.
The first video, kinda worked against your plan. I was thinking he'd be fighting the superman that destroys planets by sneezing.
The first video of Superman + Batman (who probably did nothing) vs gray face seemed to equal pre SSJ levels of fights. That superman would have trouble vs SSJ2 Goku IMO.
I'm retracting from the debate. No time. But thanks Sioux for it.
Can you give us the Correct translations then please?
This is just plot related stupidity. It is for the convenience of the writing to get rid of Gohan's Oozaru form. I never accept this as a proper source for anything.
I would belive you on this, IF they hadn't done it TWICE. Once sure annoying plot but twice its sending a message.
And yet in base form he couldn't lift a bus of children alone in the later seasons. Even if it is filler. Though, I don't take the anime as a proper source for these kind of discussions anyways. They are so filled with discrepancies and mistranslations it makes things very confusing and wrong.
I think it was more Goku trying too keep the bus level so the children didn't fall out?
Superman over the years has fought many enemies that are easily threats to Goku like this or worse.
I would say compairable, However More often then not Goku beats his foes solo, Where as Superman beats his with a team.
After the end of the Silver Age when pre-crises ended things got a little more believable but, still his speed was then played with generally being between faster than a speeding bullet all the way to in and around light speed.
As mentioned Show us the translation for Goku NOT being faster then light as it was mentioned that he should definitly be signifcantly faster.
After looking at all of the powers and abilities shown throughout Dragon Ball Z at no time do I think Goku is anywhere near the speed of light. I hardly think he is faster than the speed of sound.
While there is very little direct quantifable data, Napa did destroy ALL of earths Military and military jets gets go faster then the speed of sound.Nappa is also the second weakest Character in the show
There has never been a shred of evidence from the manga nor the anime that even gives credence to this idea that he can move faster than light let alone attack outside of maybe an offhand mistranslation which isn't evidence at all it is simply a tweak to make the show matters more dramatic.
This isn't an argument, one could say Supermans hyper speed was just ment convient plot point too make the show more interesting as the "hero needs too win both situations" type deal?
The Instant Transmission thing I will buy but even then he doesn't use that as a means to attack- he uses it simply to move. Not to mention if he was able to move at the speed of light he wouldn't need instant transmission, he would just fly everywhere. This is just speculative fan nonsense.
He does fly everywhere, He only uses translocation when he wants too get NEXT too someone perticualry (like General Tow when he transported next too him after he finished the mind puzzles in exchange for the dragon ball) He doesn't fly in space becuase he is under the preception that he can't breath there (and I still am a strong supporter of he can and just doesn't realise it, Since Vegeta can)
It brings Goku's abilities and powers into question immediately. Not that the diverse writers of Superman don't bring Superman's abilities in question but at least with Superman there is a little more consistency in what his powers are. There is a little more concrete evidence there than with the shaky foundations Toriyama laid. Not that he didn't already state throughout a number of interviews in the past he planned for any of this. He didn't take account for Goku's power at any time. He just wanted to save his printer some toner and conclude Goku's story right. It was the publisher's that demanded more story and thus he had to create a convoluted inconsistent crayon smeared mess that was the Cell and Buu Sagas. It has made it so fans have to literally spend time out of their lives to try and logically explain things and most of these logical arguments fail once you take into account the inconsistent results of certain battles, ki attacks, and events from the beginning of the series where it a little more grounded to the end where Goku slams a spirit bomb into the Kai planet and still doesn't even blow that up.
It was shown early in the series that a spirit bomb won't hurt people "pure of heart" (example Gohan who was able too "bounce the spirt bomb back at vegeta)
It only gets worse when you try to bring events from the movies into this mess. When logic fails and the inconsistencies win out math and science are generally brought into play to try and justify things and that in itself proves little but fans are good at math and can speculate anything. It then turns either silly or so convoluted people give up in flame written posts all over the internet and especially Youtube comment sections.
Granted the movies were pretty bad
I won't however completely put Goku out. Again, I am a DBZ fan after all. I can say without a doubt Goku's power from what little I can consistently say he has throughout the latter section of DBZ and what we were shown in DBGT is enough to hurt or even seriously injure the man of steel at least. The modern estimates is that Superman needs to be hit with a 50 megaton blast more or less to be knocked out and I am assuming more to be killed by sheer force. I could see that happening with a big enough ki blast assuming Goku can hit him and assuming Ki blasts give off energy in their explosions like a megaton blast, which sadly, again is another undefined piece of storytelling. Hell, I could even see him killing Superman given enough powering up but only if he hits him and given Superman's speed and other powers I really don't know what would happen.
Again open too speculation your assuming Goku isn't traveling as fast as myself and many others belive him too be moving.
.
Goku has managed too defeat ALL evil in his entire universe (at the end of GT), A feat Superman has yet too accomplish in his....
lets say... for some strange reason, both think that the other is wanting to destroy the universe. They skip the formalities (talking about it), and just get to the fight.
Edit: Oh, and where does this "Supes has no ki" come from? Ki is the life source of every living thing. If Supes is alive, he has ki. Theoretically it exists in this (our) universe anyway, and if supes is from the "real world" he has ki aswell.
This argument is far too cirumstancial to give a simple answer. However, I believe (despite Goku's badassery) that in both of their prime, Superman would prove victorious.
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The superman most know, from the cartoons and movies, would get smashed by regular Goku no problem. The problem is, there are so many variations of Superman that it's hard to compare. The REAL battle would be between this guy...
Superman Prime
and this guy...
SSJ4 Goku
Even so, I have to side with Goku on this one. I'm a fan of Superman and Goku, but Goku's strength is seemingly unlimited in his SSJ4 form; Gohan SSJ2 was described as having unlimited energy, and that's ~5 Seasons and 3 transformations apart (Goku goes through the Oozaru transformation before he reaches SSJ4, so that should be counted). I'm going to add more to this thread when I have time, as I've spent entirely too much of my life invested in both of these guys. If anybody has any questions about the two, then feel free to ask.
I guess my question is and the battle you have described comes down too CAN Superman prime LAST long enough against SSJ4. if SSJ4 can kill superman before the time ends then he wins, if he can't then superman wins. Can superman prime take a beating? (we already know goku can... dear god can he ever) is he even used too BEING damaged?
It has to be a draw because they are both on the side of virtue in all but a few given circumstances and in their universe when they are around virtue wins. So we could put either on the side of evil and the evil character no matter how strong will lose.
Piccolo gave the only explanation on the movement of characters in Dragon Ball Z. You have to feel the ki of the people fighting but Superman having no real ki signature makes that whole process null and void.
How do we know Superman does not have a real ki signature? Does anyone in DC Universe even deal with ki and specifically examine superman to declare this? Just because Superman and his enemies know nothing about Ki or power levels, doesn't mean that it isn't there for the DBZ characters to pick up on.
I guess my question is and the battle you have described comes down too CAN Superman prime LAST long enough against SSJ4. if SSJ4 can kill superman before the time ends then he wins, if he can't then superman wins. Can superman prime take a beating? (we already know goku can... dear god can he ever) is he even used too BEING damaged?
Honestly, I don't know if Superman Prime can even hurt SSJ4 Goku. SSJ2 or SSJ3 would probably be a closer fight. Both have incredible power, but the power level of the DBZ world is almost completely uncomparable to Superman's world. I honestly can't understand how somebody could watch dbz, witness the absolute insanity of their power, and make a comparison. I'm willing to bet that even Krillin would stomp JL Superman, even on his best day.
How do we know Superman does not have a real ki signature? Does anyone in DC Universe even deal with ki and specifically examine superman to declare this? Just because Superman and his enemies know nothing about Ki or power levels, doesn't mean that it isn't there for the DBZ characters to pick up on.
I would have to agree with you here. Ki is the life force of a being, so I don't see why the DBZ characters wouldn't be able to sense Superman or any other marvel/dc character.
Superman prime has some very OP abilitys he brings too the table SUCH AS: Creat life from NOTHING and alter reality... both of these I think unfortunately bring Goku down
It seems it breaks like this, visually goku is more awesome and powerful, and superman is well just an op character with 1 weakness he isn't as cool and his moves are kind of crap.
Both characters are inconsistent in power, in fact I would say that illustration SSJ3-4 for Goku simply got too ridiculously after the freiza saga, so they progressively toned it down so no bigger visuals can be seen visually.
On paper though unless its the nerfed superman, its a tough one. As powerful as goku crucially he needs time to power up, all his moves though devastating and I bet can destroy superman take time to charge up.
By comparison superman is mostly instant and is invulnerable so only the most epic blasts would be able to hurt him.
I won't count superman prime, because he is a god and that would be the same as trying to measure goku SSJ4's power based on the power levels which would place goku so off the charts that a fart would blow up earth.
Anyhow goku's problem is that he can't damage superman with his normal attacks, he would find it next to impossible to power up, unless he enters battle as an SSJ which is a possibility.
On the other hand goku can dodge and counter, while superman relies on brute power goku has skill and finese.
The ultimate kicker is that this is a battle of endurance and saiyans get tired so eventually superman will have the upperhand, with a few well placed hits on goku, goku will be unable to keep up.
In the end superman's speed is always super fast whilst goku's gets faster as he power ups, its incredibly hard to power up when you have to fight against an opponent thats invulnerable, superfast and superstrong kind of like fighting against a really hax android. Goku won't be able to stall superman for time to powerup as none of his hits will even budge superman, to do that he has to powerup.
So Goku KO without even getting to his SSJ4, just because superman is always at max power.
edit: Also think how leisurely superman uses his powers without effort , like how superman flies versus how saiyans fly, everything indicates superman is always max powered.
Of course if superman starts talking or goku finds a way to powerup then I don't think superman stands chance. Those ki blasts can obliterate mountains and planets, plus at SSJ3 or 4 goku would be so fast that superman is just getting pummelled by fists and flying through mountains.
If we're talking about "lets imagine they both think the other is going to skull**** reality" then Supermans just like "flick" before goku super saiyans up to much
While it is true he takes time too power up. In the show it has been shown he can power up too SSJ 4 REALLY quickly like jump 1 2 4 poof. So if they met on the battle feild where both were at maximum power how would that change the standings?
Goku would fight Superman, cause he could. Goku loves fighting people. He just hates it when people get hurt, but he does love a good spar.
Superman will finally get to leave his world of cardboard and hit someone who can take a punch from him and unlike Darkseid won't throw a tantrum and try to kill innocent people.
Really when was the last time Superman got to fight someone at his powerlevel that wasn't trying to conquer the universe or end all life? Superman and Goku would really enjoy it.
I voted Superman, but then I reconsidered; it would probably be a draw. If either fighter was stronger than the other, he would still limit himself for a fair fight.
Besides, killing off one of them would leave the other easy prey for the inevitable Darkseid/Frieza teamup.
All arguments end here:
Superman got punched and kicked to death by Doomsday -.-
Goku is without a doubt far more powerful than Doomsday.
So, by that logic, a punch or two from Goku would kill Superman.
See, this is the problem with "A>B, B>C, and therefore A>C" arguments.
King Piccolo beat Goku during their first fight.
Superman could pretty assuredly beat King Piccolo.
Therefore, Superman can beat Goku.
See the problem here?
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Ahh. I saw portions of the first Season of it and then I stopped. I had watched the previous show Justice League but I never saw the point to watching all the side story/revamp stories of Unlimited. I guess I was wrong.
But first. Sioux, your arguments are strong (hehe) and you almost manage to convince me. By that I eman I go, I guess super could win, until I realise he's fighting SSJ4.
The first video, kinda worked against your plan. I was thinking he'd be fighting the superman that destroys planets by sneezing.
The first video of Superman + Batman (who probably did nothing) vs gray face seemed to equal pre SSJ levels of fights. That superman would have trouble vs SSJ2 Goku IMO.
I'm retracting from the debate. No time. But thanks Sioux for it.
Still think Goku wins
Goku has managed too defeat ALL evil in his entire universe (at the end of GT), A feat Superman has yet too accomplish in his....
Edit: Oh, and where does this "Supes has no ki" come from? Ki is the life source of every living thing. If Supes is alive, he has ki. Theoretically it exists in this (our) universe anyway, and if supes is from the "real world" he has ki aswell.
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Also, this.
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Superman Prime
and this guy...
SSJ4 Goku
Even so, I have to side with Goku on this one. I'm a fan of Superman and Goku, but Goku's strength is seemingly unlimited in his SSJ4 form; Gohan SSJ2 was described as having unlimited energy, and that's ~5 Seasons and 3 transformations apart (Goku goes through the Oozaru transformation before he reaches SSJ4, so that should be counted). I'm going to add more to this thread when I have time, as I've spent entirely too much of my life invested in both of these guys. If anybody has any questions about the two, then feel free to ask.
How do we know Superman does not have a real ki signature? Does anyone in DC Universe even deal with ki and specifically examine superman to declare this? Just because Superman and his enemies know nothing about Ki or power levels, doesn't mean that it isn't there for the DBZ characters to pick up on.
Honestly, I don't know if Superman Prime can even hurt SSJ4 Goku. SSJ2 or SSJ3 would probably be a closer fight. Both have incredible power, but the power level of the DBZ world is almost completely uncomparable to Superman's world. I honestly can't understand how somebody could watch dbz, witness the absolute insanity of their power, and make a comparison. I'm willing to bet that even Krillin would stomp JL Superman, even on his best day.
I would have to agree with you here. Ki is the life force of a being, so I don't see why the DBZ characters wouldn't be able to sense Superman or any other marvel/dc character.
Could he survive a beating from SSj4 Goku? Well...that site claims he could survive the end of the universe. Which he can apparently lift.
I don't see Goku as having quite that much power. Plus, how can that hairdo beat anyone?
He'd beat SS4 Goku. Normal super man not a chance.
I'd bet Superman Prime is a tiny bit off of defeating his writer.
Both characters are inconsistent in power, in fact I would say that illustration SSJ3-4 for Goku simply got too ridiculously after the freiza saga, so they progressively toned it down so no bigger visuals can be seen visually.
On paper though unless its the nerfed superman, its a tough one. As powerful as goku crucially he needs time to power up, all his moves though devastating and I bet can destroy superman take time to charge up.
By comparison superman is mostly instant and is invulnerable so only the most epic blasts would be able to hurt him.
I won't count superman prime, because he is a god and that would be the same as trying to measure goku SSJ4's power based on the power levels which would place goku so off the charts that a fart would blow up earth.
Anyhow goku's problem is that he can't damage superman with his normal attacks, he would find it next to impossible to power up, unless he enters battle as an SSJ which is a possibility.
On the other hand goku can dodge and counter, while superman relies on brute power goku has skill and finese.
The ultimate kicker is that this is a battle of endurance and saiyans get tired so eventually superman will have the upperhand, with a few well placed hits on goku, goku will be unable to keep up.
In the end superman's speed is always super fast whilst goku's gets faster as he power ups, its incredibly hard to power up when you have to fight against an opponent thats invulnerable, superfast and superstrong kind of like fighting against a really hax android. Goku won't be able to stall superman for time to powerup as none of his hits will even budge superman, to do that he has to powerup.
So Goku KO without even getting to his SSJ4, just because superman is always at max power.
edit: Also think how leisurely superman uses his powers without effort , like how superman flies versus how saiyans fly, everything indicates superman is always max powered.
Of course if superman starts talking or goku finds a way to powerup then I don't think superman stands chance. Those ki blasts can obliterate mountains and planets, plus at SSJ3 or 4 goku would be so fast that superman is just getting pummelled by fists and flying through mountains.
So,
If we're talking about "lets imagine they both think the other is going to skull**** reality" then Supermans just like "flick" before goku super saiyans up to much
Superman will finally get to leave his world of cardboard and hit someone who can take a punch from him and unlike Darkseid won't throw a tantrum and try to kill innocent people.
Really when was the last time Superman got to fight someone at his powerlevel that wasn't trying to conquer the universe or end all life? Superman and Goku would really enjoy it.
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First 10 seconds.
That took a lot of effort to jump from normal to super sayian 2...
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Besides, killing off one of them would leave the other easy prey for the inevitable Darkseid/Frieza teamup.
See, this is the problem with "A>B, B>C, and therefore A>C" arguments.
King Piccolo beat Goku during their first fight.
Superman could pretty assuredly beat King Piccolo.
Therefore, Superman can beat Goku.
See the problem here?
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