I've had a slight change of heart going into my second year of college, which is common enough among students when it comes to pursuing an undergraduate degree. I would like to now pursue an educational course that will enable me to succeed at entering and thriving in a law school. From the research I've done, it's become apparent there is no "specific course" to reach that goal, but there are general guidelines to what kind of experiences and under-grad should have if they expect to score well on the LSAT and continue their education.
There are plans to speak to an adviser to learn which courses my school provides to get me where I'm going, but I'd like to hear about the undergraduate experiences of the MTGS users who are also lawyers. Also, if it's any help, I'm favoring something like corporate litigation, but I still need to learn more about my options before I decide on an area of focus.
Taking pre-law courses help but honestly, its all about overall GPA (don't major in art history) and even more so LSAT scores. Some schools care more about admission essays than others. Keep your nose clean. Unlike undergrad, law schools (and later bar associations) care A LOT about criminal history. You can graduate law school, pass the bar exam and be denied a license under the character and fitness review. If you want to do corporate law you want to make money (its boring as hell). You are a smarter man than I. I am a public defender. If you want to succeed in the corporate world you want to do "big law" in a major city. This means if you can't get into a top 20 law school you might not get to do what you want right out of school. If you don't get into a Tier 1 school, don't even go unless your flexible on whether or not you want to work corporate. Most big corporate firms won't even look at students unless they graduated top of their class at a great school. The pool of candidates is massive and the positions few. Also being a first year associate at a corporate form is akin to slavery. The weeks are 100 hours long and billing practices flirt on immoral. You do make a TON of money.
I majored in English in undergrad, and I don't regret it for a second. Statutory/case law interpretation and understanding are of the utmost importance, and taking pre-law courses (while helpful) aren't all they're chalked up to be.
Everything GoblinGrenadier said is spot-on, so I just threw in what I could. Good luck, and pursue it hard if you really want it.
Join that site. Become an active member. Get opinions from actual lawyers/law students/etc and see their opinions. It is FAR more valuable than asking on this site, seeing as how it's pretty much THE forum for law school prep and experience afaik.
Now, a couple things.
- Your courses don't matter. Your GPA does. What you should instead do is take the moment to do one of the RC sections of the LSAT. I believe LSAC has a free test online, so use that. See how well you do. If you do poorly, then spend a lot of time reading things and being capable of analyzing them quickly. Ostensibly speaking, you can prep for the rest of the test. You cannot prep for the RC, at least not in a couple of months.
Point being- It's not so much the courses you take but rather your developed reading comprehension ability when it comes to the LSAT.
The LSAT is fundamentally a test of doing things under pressure. Most competent individuals can get a 168 or higher if they just have the time to work the questions after 4-5 months of LSAT prep. The problem is that you do not have the time, and so the pressure will get to you. Therefore, LSAT prep is more about getting used to working under pressure than any sort of actual knowledge.
Why does this matter? I just want to reiterate that the courses you take aren't particularly relevant for the LSAT. Learning to work under pressure will though. You need to learn to be able to operate at full capacity under time pressure and self-induced stress
For the record, I scored 175+ often enough on practice tests under timed conditions of my own near the end of my prep; I never broke 168 on the real thing. The issue came with the real deal. Do not underestimate this; I cannot stress this enough.
- Regarding the LSAT- it is best if you give yourself about an year to prep. Too long and you get rusty at random things and the entire prep gets incredibly boring. Too short and you may never actually fully develop your potential.
Most people recommend that you start prepping in your senior year of college and see what happens.
Any other recommendation you can easily see in that site.
Pretty much everything GoblingGrenadier wrote can be taken as good though. However, instead of "top 20" I'd say "top 10" instead. Law school rankings matters, and the rank you have in your school matters too.
But before all that, the LSAT is what matters the most. You must get the best possible LSAT score. If you get a great score, then you can pretty much go to most schools for free. Which is what you want. The conventional wisdom right now is that law school (even Harvard or Yale) are not really worth going to if you're paying most of the tuition.
I did well on the LSAT and passed two bar exams on my first try without taking prep courses. Prep courses are a waste of money. Study on your own. Also I advise that you do NOT join the website top law schools, or above the law. Both forums are for "gunners" (very annoying law school students who think they are always right and love the sound of their own voices despite often being wrong). Both forums are also filled with disenchanted grads who are unemployed and take it upon themselves to warn the world of the evils of law school. Furthermore, many law school students are hyper competitive D-bags. There are plenty of attorney's on this site believe it or not. Many of us decent people. Also if you rethink corporate law don't worry about going to a great school. I went to University of Wyoming College of Law to save money and got a job I absolutely love as an attorney right out of school. While top 20 (or 10) is good advice for corporate "big law" it is not necessary for most other fields. Most people I went to school with got jobs as attorneys within 6 month of passing the bar. I will warn you that law school is a major financial investment. If you are not absolutely certain you want to be a lawyer, consider other options. Unlike many other graduate programs, you will likely not get a stipend, not get a tremendous amount of scholarship money, and you will leave deep in debt. I worked 50 hours a week as a cook in law school (technically not allowed) and still left with a huge mound of debt. My debt was 1/3 that of the average law school grad.
I went to University of Wyoming College of Law to save money and got a job I absolutely love as an attorney right out of school.
Had to do it, I really wanted to do criminal law and after exhausting literally hundreds of leads I took a job with the one guy who offered me a job (I exclusively applied to public defenders/prosecutors offices).
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Regarding TLS- I agree with you. That's why I stayed in the prep section and didn't bother going to the other places for the most part. That being said, the general public perception of law school and lawyers is that they make a lot of money and that it's a good investment. Both are wrong. Very wrong. And TLS is a great site to disabuse anyone of that particular notion.
It is hard. I did get a job within 6 months of taking the bar exam. If you can't fill out hundreds of applications in a six month span, your doing it wrong. It is exactly what I wanted to do for most of my life, just in a location that is less than ideal. I LOVE my job. I hate where I live. I would also like to note that the world today does not encourage people to join the legal profession. Many are intent on scaring people off the path as the job market is over saturated. I just want this guy to know thats not always the case.
Background: I have been an attorney for about two years. I was on law review at a top 15 school. My undergrad major was Physics. I practice patent litigation at a firm I love that pays well.
I think the advice here is good, but some of the TLS-type advice from magicware99, while well-meaning, is over the top. Study for a year for the LSAT? I studied on my own for two weeks and did well. I think I would have done even better if I'd spent more like a month or two and taken a reputable prep course alongside my independent study, but a year will burn you out and you won't get any better after a certain point. Students who follow the TLS model of stressing about everything you can possibly stress about end up defeating themselves. Work as hard as you need to, and no harder.
This plays into the point I came here to make - the key to success is balance. People like to joke that law school is a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie. But if you eat the pie so fast that you puke, you won't win the contest. You need to work hard, but you also need to pace yourself and attend to the other areas of your life: friendships, relationships, sleep, exercise, etc.
You also need a personality that handles stress well. Even better is a personality that thrives on stress. Time pressures and competitive environments put me in the zone and make me perform at my best. If you're not that kind of person, you will hate law school and probably not do very well.
What to study as an undergrad - study something challenging that isn't typical "prelaw" but plays into your area of interest. For corporate law, I would study something like accounting or finance. You also need to be able to write well, but don't major in English. Instead, take a few good writing-oriented classes and then read the works of clever and intelligent writers and try to internalize the way they think and write.
Great advice from bitterroot, too. I am in my final year of law school while working full time in insurance compliance (a company for which I've worked nine years). Pace yourself and make sure life doesn't pass you by.
I think the advice here is good, but some of the TLS-type advice from magicware99, while well-meaning, is over the top. Study for a year for the LSAT? I studied on my own for two weeks and did well. I think I would have done even better if I'd spent more like a month or two and taken a reputable prep course alongside my independent study, but a year will burn you out and you won't get any better after a certain point. Students who follow the TLS model of stressing about everything you can possibly stress about end up defeating themselves. Work as hard as you need to, and no harder.
Eh, I essentially meant give yourself enough time to reach your full potential. I didn't mean literally study for a year and then take the test. If you felt like you reached your potential in a month, that's great! But if it takes a year, then it takes a year.
I went to a top 10 law school and recently passed the bar.
There's probably no magic course you can take to give you a greater degree of success in law school. It just depends on so many things.
One recommendation from an associate was to take drama classes to help one's "performance" in court.
One of my recommendations if you're going to do corporate law is probably to take some business courses. Finance and Accounting were specifically offered at my
law school to give future lawyers more fluency with financial concepts and terms.
I was an engineer as an undergrad. While I would say that my engineering classes helped me with the logical aspect of law, it divorced me unduly from the human side of
law---that law is ultimately a set of rules for people to follow. I would have done better to remember that, although it's not something my peers seemed to struggle with.
As for studying for the LSAT, like magickware, i studied for a full year. That said, with so long a period of time, its very easy to lose focus, especially if one's improvement hits a wall.
I completed about 30 separate LSATs. I finished every question in the study books kaplan offered. But I honestly never showed much improvement in my scores. In fact, when I would score above 170, it really had to do with the clarity of my mind and my ability to focus more than anything else.
If I had to do it all over again, I would give myself 3 months of study, with the final month being intensely focused. Indeed in my year of study, about 50% of all my preparation occurred in the final month with the other 50% spread out over the prior 11 months.
Having taken a prep course, I would advise against it unless you're scoring in the 140-150 range. That was the scoring range of most of my peers. They cant do much to help you if you're consistently scoring above 165 on your lsat practice tests.
(IIRC they're cheaper. Plus since you can get pdf copies so you don't have to worry about the fact that you can use a test book only once, makes it easier to review and practice).
Read this disclaimer first, and the rest of this post only if you're still committed.
Major in philosophy. You'll develop a very strong understanding of logic, and better reading comprehension than with any other major. Philosophy classes are the one place outside of law school you're likely to encounter the Socratic method, which many if not most 1Ls are crapping themselves over the first few months. Ethics and justice are important both in law school and in practice. If litigation is your intended practice area, recognizing logical fallacies and being able to call them out on the fly can result in blowouts during oral arguments.
History or poli sci are less on target, but at least some of the information would be useful as a law student.
-29 y/o atm
-Majored in English at State U
-Self-study for LSAT (classes are a waste of money)
-179 LSAT
-Yale for law school
Currently a corporate lawyer. Hate it. Took two years to pay off the debt. Going to jump to teaching high school (did a Master's in teaching) as soon as is practicable (next hiring cycle).
Really think about whether you want to make the financial commitment. And don't sink a lot of money into a law degree that isn't going to give you a reasonable degree of certainty about your employment prospects.
RE: LSAT study. I took out 3 months of consistent, daily study. Buy as many actual LSATs as you can, and take as many as you can. I sampled several supplementary materials and found the PowerScore product to be far superior to any of its competitors and would recommend that.
There are plans to speak to an adviser to learn which courses my school provides to get me where I'm going, but I'd like to hear about the undergraduate experiences of the MTGS users who are also lawyers. Also, if it's any help, I'm favoring something like corporate litigation, but I still need to learn more about my options before I decide on an area of focus.
Also, read this:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/water-cooler-talk/real-life-advice/567365-trying-to-research-whether-law-school-is-right-for
Lastly, feel free to PM me any time.
Everything GoblinGrenadier said is spot-on, so I just threw in what I could. Good luck, and pursue it hard if you really want it.
First off...
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/index.php
Join that site. Become an active member. Get opinions from actual lawyers/law students/etc and see their opinions. It is FAR more valuable than asking on this site, seeing as how it's pretty much THE forum for law school prep and experience afaik.
Now, a couple things.
- Your courses don't matter. Your GPA does. What you should instead do is take the moment to do one of the RC sections of the LSAT. I believe LSAC has a free test online, so use that. See how well you do. If you do poorly, then spend a lot of time reading things and being capable of analyzing them quickly. Ostensibly speaking, you can prep for the rest of the test. You cannot prep for the RC, at least not in a couple of months.
Point being- It's not so much the courses you take but rather your developed reading comprehension ability when it comes to the LSAT.
The LSAT is fundamentally a test of doing things under pressure. Most competent individuals can get a 168 or higher if they just have the time to work the questions after 4-5 months of LSAT prep. The problem is that you do not have the time, and so the pressure will get to you. Therefore, LSAT prep is more about getting used to working under pressure than any sort of actual knowledge.
Why does this matter? I just want to reiterate that the courses you take aren't particularly relevant for the LSAT. Learning to work under pressure will though. You need to learn to be able to operate at full capacity under time pressure and self-induced stress
For the record, I scored 175+ often enough on practice tests under timed conditions of my own near the end of my prep; I never broke 168 on the real thing. The issue came with the real deal. Do not underestimate this; I cannot stress this enough.
- Regarding the LSAT- it is best if you give yourself about an year to prep. Too long and you get rusty at random things and the entire prep gets incredibly boring. Too short and you may never actually fully develop your potential.
Most people recommend that you start prepping in your senior year of college and see what happens.
Any other recommendation you can easily see in that site.
Pretty much everything GoblingGrenadier wrote can be taken as good though. However, instead of "top 20" I'd say "top 10" instead. Law school rankings matters, and the rank you have in your school matters too.
But before all that, the LSAT is what matters the most. You must get the best possible LSAT score. If you get a great score, then you can pretty much go to most schools for free. Which is what you want. The conventional wisdom right now is that law school (even Harvard or Yale) are not really worth going to if you're paying most of the tuition.
Anyways... That site. Go there.
?
Regarding TLS- I agree with you. That's why I stayed in the prep section and didn't bother going to the other places for the most part. That being said, the general public perception of law school and lawyers is that they make a lot of money and that it's a good investment. Both are wrong. Very wrong. And TLS is a great site to disabuse anyone of that particular notion.
I think the advice here is good, but some of the TLS-type advice from magicware99, while well-meaning, is over the top. Study for a year for the LSAT? I studied on my own for two weeks and did well. I think I would have done even better if I'd spent more like a month or two and taken a reputable prep course alongside my independent study, but a year will burn you out and you won't get any better after a certain point. Students who follow the TLS model of stressing about everything you can possibly stress about end up defeating themselves. Work as hard as you need to, and no harder.
This plays into the point I came here to make - the key to success is balance. People like to joke that law school is a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie. But if you eat the pie so fast that you puke, you won't win the contest. You need to work hard, but you also need to pace yourself and attend to the other areas of your life: friendships, relationships, sleep, exercise, etc.
You also need a personality that handles stress well. Even better is a personality that thrives on stress. Time pressures and competitive environments put me in the zone and make me perform at my best. If you're not that kind of person, you will hate law school and probably not do very well.
What to study as an undergrad - study something challenging that isn't typical "prelaw" but plays into your area of interest. For corporate law, I would study something like accounting or finance. You also need to be able to write well, but don't major in English. Instead, take a few good writing-oriented classes and then read the works of clever and intelligent writers and try to internalize the way they think and write.
Eh, I essentially meant give yourself enough time to reach your full potential. I didn't mean literally study for a year and then take the test. If you felt like you reached your potential in a month, that's great! But if it takes a year, then it takes a year.
There's probably no magic course you can take to give you a greater degree of success in law school. It just depends on so many things.
One recommendation from an associate was to take drama classes to help one's "performance" in court.
One of my recommendations if you're going to do corporate law is probably to take some business courses. Finance and Accounting were specifically offered at my
law school to give future lawyers more fluency with financial concepts and terms.
I was an engineer as an undergrad. While I would say that my engineering classes helped me with the logical aspect of law, it divorced me unduly from the human side of
law---that law is ultimately a set of rules for people to follow. I would have done better to remember that, although it's not something my peers seemed to struggle with.
As for studying for the LSAT, like magickware, i studied for a full year. That said, with so long a period of time, its very easy to lose focus, especially if one's improvement hits a wall.
I completed about 30 separate LSATs. I finished every question in the study books kaplan offered. But I honestly never showed much improvement in my scores. In fact, when I would score above 170, it really had to do with the clarity of my mind and my ability to focus more than anything else.
If I had to do it all over again, I would give myself 3 months of study, with the final month being intensely focused. Indeed in my year of study, about 50% of all my preparation occurred in the final month with the other 50% spread out over the prior 11 months.
Having taken a prep course, I would advise against it unless you're scoring in the 140-150 range. That was the scoring range of most of my peers. They cant do much to help you if you're consistently scoring above 165 on your lsat practice tests.
PM if you have any more questions.
Just get your hands on actual test sheets from-
http://www.cambridgelsat.com/bookstore/official-lsac-publications/
(IIRC they're cheaper. Plus since you can get pdf copies so you don't have to worry about the fact that you can use a test book only once, makes it easier to review and practice).
And make use of free resources online. Specifically,
http://7sage.com/logic-game-explanations/
and
http://www.manhattanlsat.com/forums/
Major in philosophy. You'll develop a very strong understanding of logic, and better reading comprehension than with any other major. Philosophy classes are the one place outside of law school you're likely to encounter the Socratic method, which many if not most 1Ls are crapping themselves over the first few months. Ethics and justice are important both in law school and in practice. If litigation is your intended practice area, recognizing logical fallacies and being able to call them out on the fly can result in blowouts during oral arguments.
History or poli sci are less on target, but at least some of the information would be useful as a law student.
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Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
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-29 y/o atm
-Majored in English at State U
-Self-study for LSAT (classes are a waste of money)
-179 LSAT
-Yale for law school
Currently a corporate lawyer. Hate it. Took two years to pay off the debt. Going to jump to teaching high school (did a Master's in teaching) as soon as is practicable (next hiring cycle).
Really think about whether you want to make the financial commitment. And don't sink a lot of money into a law degree that isn't going to give you a reasonable degree of certainty about your employment prospects.
RE: LSAT study. I took out 3 months of consistent, daily study. Buy as many actual LSATs as you can, and take as many as you can. I sampled several supplementary materials and found the PowerScore product to be far superior to any of its competitors and would recommend that.
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