WARNING: THIS IS A RANT, WITH A DISCUSSION AT THE BOTTOM. PLEASE BE AWARE THAT THERE IS WHINGING APPARENT.
I design games. Its what I enjoy, but not always what I'm good at. (My magic design can be mediocre a lot of the time) However, I've been working on a game recently which is what I consider, as a game designer, is going to be my greatest work. Whenever I pitch the idea to people they seem to enjoy the idea and have all told me send them a copy when its done. (I intend to send them a voucher to buy the game discounted ) When I tell my older sister about about making a dating card game where being fit and sport were in the Beauty category, she claims that I'm making a insulting generalisation where someone needs to be fit to be beautiful. I say that people can be attractive in other ways, not just beauty and the game reflects that.
She says my game makes it seem as you have to be fit to be beautiful. I say well, if you look at the stereotype, fit people are usually more attractive than their unfit counterparts.
She then says that the game is limited by stereotypes and therefor it shouldn't be made.
Which to me translated to: "Your game is stupid and don't create it cause it doesn't emulate real life completely and you'll make people feel insecure about their looks."
Aside from the fact she actually has no understanding of how the whole game is like because she judged it before I've told her about the whole thing, and aside from the fact that its also apparent that she knows nothing about simple game design and targeting it to large markets where people expect stereotypes so they can relate to them. Should I have taken what she said as an insult?
I feel very unappreciated by her. In fact I feel degraded and insulted by the statement that I shouldn't make the game.
Some background knowledge on my sister is that she's doing philosophy and religion in a humanities course in University and is 2 years older than me as well as far more independent. She gets very good grades and is very confident, however she give off the impression that she knows everything.
Do you all agree that my feelings are appropriate? Do you think my sister should have responded in the way she did?
Your drama between you and your sister is a two way street, and there is no way to judge what baggage the two of you have.
(1) if you normally go to her for advice, and actually value her opinion, I'd strongly consider what she has to say about fitness & beauty, but at the same time, tell her that it bothers you that she would tell you to DUMP the game, rather than encouraging you to change it.
(2) if you don't value her opinion, what do you care what she thinks about this game? Just stop telling her about your ambitions and projects, if you know she's just going to give you negative energy.
It sucks that your sister is so unimpressed with your dream, but only you can know whether she said it because she gave her honest opinion, or whether she said it because you just don't get along.
It's usually somebody's job to take a look at what in a game might offend people. If people find your game to be offensive for some reason, the game won't sell as well.
It doesn't really matter if your sister or you are "right" about the definition of beauty. What matters is moving units.
If you want to design games, I suggest getting a lot less sensitive, stop looking for people to congratulate you, and take criticism as one person's feedback.
As for the specific issue in question... a lot of games avoid the issue of fitness, weight, and health, in favor of abstractions like "beauty" and "charisma."
I strongly recommend doing so. I mean... next time you're at a big board game convention, look at the people at the tables. There are all sizes and shapes present.
I'd suggest changing the word "fit" to something else. I don't view it as a very big deal, but something else like "style" might be lower risk.
-----
If you want my honest opinion, you need a complete 180 in attitude to design games. It's a hard knock life, man. Here are some tips.
1.) Don't have game-babies. No prototype is your opus. The best game designers might get one in three prototypes made.
Be ready to go from inspired and motivated to moving on and trying something else.
2.) Feedback from someone is not always going to be pleasant. There are some ornery testers out there. Learn to pick out the wisdom from the criticism.
Oh, and there will be at least one person at all times telling you to scrap the idea. You can't take that stuff too seriously.
3.) You are not your game. The fact that you feel "unappreciated" based on some game criticism is a red flag, in my book.
Divorce yourself from the game you are making.
Some background knowledge on my sister is that she's doing philosophy and religion in a humanities course in University and is 2 years older than me as well as far more independent. She gets very good grades and is very confident, however she give off the impression that she knows everything.
lol, stereotypes.
Sorry, but it should be pointed out that this attitude from college students is far from unique. You start studying gender issues and similar topics and then it bleeds into your life outside fo college - which is very insular by nature.
A lot of people will tell you to not make a game. A lot of people will not like your ideas or will be critical of some aspect of them. If you go further in the game industry, bosses will tell you that you need to scrap or completely rework a project.
You have to detach form your work and realize that your work is not you. Even without getting into a philosophical debate about aesthetics, I can tell that you're overreacting to what your sister said.
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My advice: learn to love criticism. When I studied music, nothing annoyed me more than someone saying "Wow, that was amazing!" and leaving it at that. Give me something to work with!! Criticism is an artist's best friend, and that's what you are...an artist whose medium is game design.
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A tier 3 Legacy deck was named after me. What have you done with your life?
A story about Nerf: it started as a game about cave men and rocks. When the play testers were playing with the foam 'rocks' and shooting hoops with them and having more fun, they dumped the rest of the clunky game and just went and built around the foam 'rock' to build up nerf.
That's the point about creative destruction, you need to know what your customers like and what they find most enjoyable and then implement that to the core. Look at MtG, it's still clunky in places and the rules go through revision every year. The game has changed from Alpha to 4th to 5th to 6th to M10 as the major revision to game play. Thus far, the game has been simplified from it's older system where you could go to negative life and other shenanigans.
The "moral" is to test and refine, and throw out bad advice. If you keep hearing from a number of people "this sucks and is irredeemable" than you either have a very small amount of people attracted to that game or it just really does suck no matter what you do with it and have to change the core or know when to quit and give up. Sometimes shelving a project for a number of years and then returning to it anew can build something in a different way after you've gained new experiences. And working on multiple projects at once may slow down completion, but can increase interlocking growth through multiple streams if they connect enough on a tangential basis to achieve some relative synthesis.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
When I tell my older sister about about making a dating card game where being fit and sport were in the Beauty category, she claims that I'm making a insulting generalisation where someone needs to be fit to be beautiful. I say that people can be attractive in other ways, not just beauty and the game reflects that.
She says my game makes it seem as you have to be fit to be beautiful. I say well, if you look at the stereotype, fit people are usually more attractive than their unfit counterparts.
She then says that the game is limited by stereotypes and therefor it shouldn't be made.
Which to me translated to: "Your game is stupid and don't create it cause it doesn't emulate real life completely and you'll make people feel insecure about their looks."
Aside from the fact she actually has no understanding of how the whole game is like because she judged it before I've told her about the whole thing, and aside from the fact that its also apparent that she knows nothing about simple game design and targeting it to large markets where people expect stereotypes so they can relate to them. Should I have taken what she said as an insult?
I feel very unappreciated by her. In fact I feel degraded and insulted by the statement that I shouldn't make the game.
I too design games, and have since I was a kid but have never had the guts to try to take it past the playtest level. (I'm also something of a perfectionist, another problem that keeps my game designs from escaping playtest.) Coincidentally, I was also a philosophy major.
Here's the harsh truth - when you're creating a game with the intent to sell, you're creating a product. The marketing budget for most games is minuscule - so the vast majority of purchases are going to come from people looking at the back of your game box and formulating an idea of the game. Every single one of your potential customers is going to "judge your game before understanding the whole thing."
Her first opinion of the game is 'you have to be fit to have beauty,' and even though your game mechanics reflect that attractiveness is more than beauty, the thing that first stuck in her mind was "this game says that fitness equals beauty." If that's the impression a customer gets from your game, then that's what a percentage of your word of mouth is going to be. That's something you're going to want to avoid if possible.
Beauty is a sensitive subject, and as the cliche goes, it's in the eye of the beholder. There's a huge spectrum of beauty between Adriana Lima and Suicide Girl.
It's not a matter of 'making people insecure about their looks,' as much as it's about telling someone their type of beauty, or the type of beauty they prefer is invalid. I don't think it's overreacting to be offended by that, and unless there's more to the story, I wouldn't take what she said to mean "you're stupid."
Creative people get emotionally attached to their creations, and there's nothing wrong with that. But at some point, if you're intending a game to be published you have to step out of your own shoes and see your game through the eyes of a potential customer.
Who is the game for? Why is a random game store patron going to pick up your game and say, "you know what? That's right up my alley." What type of person do you intend to purchase this game of yours?
If the first impression of this game is "rich and beautiful people competing for each other's attention and getting dates," then you're fighting against the dating experiences of a large portion of your target audience. If the first impression of your game is a satire spoofing the world, then you're more likely to sell it. There's a reason dating sims haven't historically done well outside of Japan.
My honest advice as a fellow game-designer - I would sincerely re-evaluate your game mechanics. Even if you don't touch the crunch at all, a bit of work on the fluff will make it more appealing to a potential customer. I would honestly leave fit/sporty as its own category and not even put the "Beauty" mechanic in the game. That button is just way too hot to allow your players to press.
About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
William Faulkner, one of the greatest U.S. writers of all time, said "Kill your darlings".
The statement is commonly believed to mean that one must always be willing to kill that which you love the most in your writing, because otherwise you can never stay objective and actually see what's going on.
I would imagine that should apply to everyone in any creative design department.
It's incredibly easy to become attached to your work and become blinded to its problems. It's an issue that people encounter everywhere. That's why people have a hard time dealing with opinions or values that contradict or clash with theirs. This is especially true in works that you created. They're your creation, and you cannot suffer to see them criticized.
Your interpretation of your sister's comments suggest to me that you can't objectively take criticism and determine whether it's fair or not. If you really want to be a game designer, then you need to grow a thicker skin and be able to handle criticism on all different levels.
Say you look to find people to invest in your product. Because they're investing their money in an unproven product, they will be extremely critical and will find every reason why they don't like it. It's a part of the business, and you need to be able to handle it.
Otherwise, you're just kidding yourself of being a game designer.
P.S. It really doesn't matter at all whether your sister is a liberal arts student and is very liberal in her beliefs in this particular situation. It really doesn't matter one bit. I don't even know why you're pointing this out, tbh. It makes you look like you want to justify your reasoning, and that's a hallmark of people who can't take criticism.
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I design games. Its what I enjoy, but not always what I'm good at. (My magic design can be mediocre a lot of the time) However, I've been working on a game recently which is what I consider, as a game designer, is going to be my greatest work. Whenever I pitch the idea to people they seem to enjoy the idea and have all told me send them a copy when its done. (I intend to send them a voucher to buy the game discounted ) When I tell my older sister about about making a dating card game where being fit and sport were in the Beauty category, she claims that I'm making a insulting generalisation where someone needs to be fit to be beautiful. I say that people can be attractive in other ways, not just beauty and the game reflects that.
She says my game makes it seem as you have to be fit to be beautiful. I say well, if you look at the stereotype, fit people are usually more attractive than their unfit counterparts.
She then says that the game is limited by stereotypes and therefor it shouldn't be made.
Which to me translated to: "Your game is stupid and don't create it cause it doesn't emulate real life completely and you'll make people feel insecure about their looks."
Aside from the fact she actually has no understanding of how the whole game is like because she judged it before I've told her about the whole thing, and aside from the fact that its also apparent that she knows nothing about simple game design and targeting it to large markets where people expect stereotypes so they can relate to them. Should I have taken what she said as an insult?
I feel very unappreciated by her. In fact I feel degraded and insulted by the statement that I shouldn't make the game.
Some background knowledge on my sister is that she's doing philosophy and religion in a humanities course in University and is 2 years older than me as well as far more independent. She gets very good grades and is very confident, however she give off the impression that she knows everything.
Do you all agree that my feelings are appropriate? Do you think my sister should have responded in the way she did?
Pretty much sums up why I like green so much
On the internet, everywhere is Soviet Russia[/QUOTE]
I'd say no, but then neither was her reaction appropriate.
Both of you are overreacting.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
(1) if you normally go to her for advice, and actually value her opinion, I'd strongly consider what she has to say about fitness & beauty, but at the same time, tell her that it bothers you that she would tell you to DUMP the game, rather than encouraging you to change it.
(2) if you don't value her opinion, what do you care what she thinks about this game? Just stop telling her about your ambitions and projects, if you know she's just going to give you negative energy.
It sucks that your sister is so unimpressed with your dream, but only you can know whether she said it because she gave her honest opinion, or whether she said it because you just don't get along.
It doesn't really matter if your sister or you are "right" about the definition of beauty. What matters is moving units.
If you want to design games, I suggest getting a lot less sensitive, stop looking for people to congratulate you, and take criticism as one person's feedback.
As for the specific issue in question... a lot of games avoid the issue of fitness, weight, and health, in favor of abstractions like "beauty" and "charisma."
I strongly recommend doing so. I mean... next time you're at a big board game convention, look at the people at the tables. There are all sizes and shapes present.
I'd suggest changing the word "fit" to something else. I don't view it as a very big deal, but something else like "style" might be lower risk.
-----
If you want my honest opinion, you need a complete 180 in attitude to design games. It's a hard knock life, man. Here are some tips.
1.) Don't have game-babies. No prototype is your opus. The best game designers might get one in three prototypes made.
Be ready to go from inspired and motivated to moving on and trying something else.
2.) Feedback from someone is not always going to be pleasant. There are some ornery testers out there. Learn to pick out the wisdom from the criticism.
Oh, and there will be at least one person at all times telling you to scrap the idea. You can't take that stuff too seriously.
3.) You are not your game. The fact that you feel "unappreciated" based on some game criticism is a red flag, in my book.
Divorce yourself from the game you are making.
if your sister hasn't played it then well she can't really comment.
just make sure the game doesn't really insult people and you should be fine.
make it fun and interesting like things that happen in real life.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
Sorry, but it should be pointed out that this attitude from college students is far from unique. You start studying gender issues and similar topics and then it bleeds into your life outside fo college - which is very insular by nature.
You have to detach form your work and realize that your work is not you. Even without getting into a philosophical debate about aesthetics, I can tell that you're overreacting to what your sister said.
Sig by Rivenor
Decks (All Budget)
Modern
WSoul SistersW
RGShamansRG
That's the point about creative destruction, you need to know what your customers like and what they find most enjoyable and then implement that to the core. Look at MtG, it's still clunky in places and the rules go through revision every year. The game has changed from Alpha to 4th to 5th to 6th to M10 as the major revision to game play. Thus far, the game has been simplified from it's older system where you could go to negative life and other shenanigans.
The "moral" is to test and refine, and throw out bad advice. If you keep hearing from a number of people "this sucks and is irredeemable" than you either have a very small amount of people attracted to that game or it just really does suck no matter what you do with it and have to change the core or know when to quit and give up. Sometimes shelving a project for a number of years and then returning to it anew can build something in a different way after you've gained new experiences. And working on multiple projects at once may slow down completion, but can increase interlocking growth through multiple streams if they connect enough on a tangential basis to achieve some relative synthesis.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I too design games, and have since I was a kid but have never had the guts to try to take it past the playtest level. (I'm also something of a perfectionist, another problem that keeps my game designs from escaping playtest.) Coincidentally, I was also a philosophy major.
Here's the harsh truth - when you're creating a game with the intent to sell, you're creating a product. The marketing budget for most games is minuscule - so the vast majority of purchases are going to come from people looking at the back of your game box and formulating an idea of the game. Every single one of your potential customers is going to "judge your game before understanding the whole thing."
Her first opinion of the game is 'you have to be fit to have beauty,' and even though your game mechanics reflect that attractiveness is more than beauty, the thing that first stuck in her mind was "this game says that fitness equals beauty." If that's the impression a customer gets from your game, then that's what a percentage of your word of mouth is going to be. That's something you're going to want to avoid if possible.
Beauty is a sensitive subject, and as the cliche goes, it's in the eye of the beholder. There's a huge spectrum of beauty between Adriana Lima and Suicide Girl.
It's not a matter of 'making people insecure about their looks,' as much as it's about telling someone their type of beauty, or the type of beauty they prefer is invalid. I don't think it's overreacting to be offended by that, and unless there's more to the story, I wouldn't take what she said to mean "you're stupid."
Creative people get emotionally attached to their creations, and there's nothing wrong with that. But at some point, if you're intending a game to be published you have to step out of your own shoes and see your game through the eyes of a potential customer.
Who is the game for? Why is a random game store patron going to pick up your game and say, "you know what? That's right up my alley." What type of person do you intend to purchase this game of yours?
If the first impression of this game is "rich and beautiful people competing for each other's attention and getting dates," then you're fighting against the dating experiences of a large portion of your target audience. If the first impression of your game is a satire spoofing the world, then you're more likely to sell it. There's a reason dating sims haven't historically done well outside of Japan.
My honest advice as a fellow game-designer - I would sincerely re-evaluate your game mechanics. Even if you don't touch the crunch at all, a bit of work on the fluff will make it more appealing to a potential customer. I would honestly leave fit/sporty as its own category and not even put the "Beauty" mechanic in the game. That button is just way too hot to allow your players to press.
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About Frox: for nearly 10 years, Frox has been helping women look good and feel great in easy-fit, mix-and-match, and work-to-weekend with just a few pieces by helping them make the right choices when it comes to clothing and accessories.
The statement is commonly believed to mean that one must always be willing to kill that which you love the most in your writing, because otherwise you can never stay objective and actually see what's going on.
I would imagine that should apply to everyone in any creative design department.
It's incredibly easy to become attached to your work and become blinded to its problems. It's an issue that people encounter everywhere. That's why people have a hard time dealing with opinions or values that contradict or clash with theirs. This is especially true in works that you created. They're your creation, and you cannot suffer to see them criticized.
Your interpretation of your sister's comments suggest to me that you can't objectively take criticism and determine whether it's fair or not. If you really want to be a game designer, then you need to grow a thicker skin and be able to handle criticism on all different levels.
Say you look to find people to invest in your product. Because they're investing their money in an unproven product, they will be extremely critical and will find every reason why they don't like it. It's a part of the business, and you need to be able to handle it.
Otherwise, you're just kidding yourself of being a game designer.
P.S. It really doesn't matter at all whether your sister is a liberal arts student and is very liberal in her beliefs in this particular situation. It really doesn't matter one bit. I don't even know why you're pointing this out, tbh. It makes you look like you want to justify your reasoning, and that's a hallmark of people who can't take criticism.