Is this bait? Jenner is super rich, of course she's insulated from the effects of politics on society.
Like, Ted "maybe the Planned Parenthood shooter is a transgendered leftist activist*" Cruz is pretty consistently an ******** to trans people. I mean, for example, he blocked the LGBT Equality Act, meaning trans people can be fired for no better reason than being trans (and presumably, employed by a bigot).
Identity politics are pretty important when you're part of a group that is statistically more likely to live in poverty (also, among other things, to be raped or be murdered) than the wider population. That's why trans people as a group generally don't support the zodiac killer**.
It's also why Black Lives Matter got started by black people significantly before fox news started All Lives Matter. Because identity matters if people hate you for it.
*The shooter was quickly revealed to be a mentally disturbed cis man with a pretty standard mix of right wing beliefs, btw. Didn't stop Cruz from pushing the rumor.
**I know what his birth certificate says, but Obama got enough grief from birthers that I'm willing to push this for the lulz. My post would be too sad otherwise.
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Jenner has never been a great spokeswoman for the trans community. Even almost immediately after she publicly came out, she made comments about how fighting for trans rights isn't that important and trans individuals need to work on being less visible.
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You have a political party actively trying to roll back the rights earned by gays, blacks, and the poor and you think it's funny they care?
I think the level of vitriol being displayed because Caitlyn Jenner doesn't profess the political beliefs she's "supposed" to is why we as a country can't have nice things anymore.
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I just found it really funny that these people take really take their identity politics seriously.
You have a political party actively trying to roll back the rights earned by gays, blacks, and the poor and you think it's funny they care?
I'm curious what rights are those>?
Voting, marriage, access to space.
Woow I did not know some Americans want apartheid. That is pretty terrible. I understand why you are unhappy.
Can I ask you the details on what party in the us wants gays, blacks (as you put it) and the poor not to have voting rights? I'm not aware of any such campaign but seeing as I come from a country that had such bad ideas I would be curious as to see how such a thing could be defended.
Jenner has never been a great spokeswoman for the trans community. Even almost immediately after she publicly came out, she made comments about how fighting for trans rights isn't that important and trans individuals need to work on being less visible.
Pretty much this. While not a perfect analogy, she's viewed by many as the trans equivalent of an Uncle Tom. It's a shame that many people are only exposed to trans issues through her.
You have a political party actively trying to roll back the rights earned by gays, blacks, and the poor and you think it's funny they care?
I think the level of vitriol being displayed because Caitlyn Jenner doesn't profess the political beliefs she's "supposed" to is why we as a country can't have nice things anymore.
Nice things like being able to use a public washroom, employers barred from refusing to hire you based on your gender identity, and such? It'd really suck to have to worry about not having nice things like that.
Woow I did not know some Americans want apartheid. That is pretty terrible. I understand why you are unhappy.
Can I ask you the details on what party in the us wants gays, blacks (as you put it) and the poor not to have voting rights? I'm not aware of any such campaign but seeing as I come from a country that had such bad ideas I would be curious as to see how such a thing could be defended.
The Republican party is actively passing laws that make it more difficult for people, particularly the poor, to vote. In Alabama, they passed a law requiring that everyone have a driver's license or state ID issued by the DMV to vote, and then subsequently announced the closure of multiple DMVs that served predominantly black and poor areas.
Voter ID laws can also be used to suppress the trans vote, because trans individuals are more likely to have a name and appearance that does not match that of their government-issued IDs.
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Nice things like being able to use a public washroom, employers barred from refusing to hire you based on your gender identity, and such?
Nice things like people talking out their disagreements and a government that actually governs.
It is increasingly difficult to talk about serious political differences when our social views are so skewed. Treating every person with respect and offering everyone equal treatment should be the base line we can all agree on. But we don't, so everything past that gets even harder.
I just found it really funny that these people take really take their identity politics seriously.
You have a political party actively trying to roll back the rights earned by gays, blacks, and the poor and you think it's funny they care?
I find it funny that the people mentioned in the article lambasted Caitlyn Jenner because she isn't saying things they expect her to say.
It's almost like they never cared who she is as a person and got shocked when they realized she's an actual human being with opinions instead of being someone who's SOLELY defined by one aspect of their life.
I just found it really funny that these people take really take their identity politics seriously.
You have a political party actively trying to roll back the rights earned by gays, blacks, and the poor and you think it's funny they care?
I'm curious what rights are those>?
Voting, marriage, access to space.
Woow I did not know some Americans want apartheid. That is pretty terrible. I understand why you are unhappy.
Can I ask you the details on what party in the us wants gays, blacks (as you put it) and the poor not to have voting rights? I'm not aware of any such campaign but seeing as I come from a country that had such bad ideas I would be curious as to see how such a thing could be defended.
I just found it really funny that these people take really take their identity politics seriously.
You have a political party actively trying to roll back the rights earned by gays, blacks, and the poor and you think it's funny they care?
I find it funny that the people mentioned in the article lambasted Caitlyn Jenner because she isn't saying things they expect her to say.
It's almost like they never cared who she is as a person and got shocked when they realized she's an actual human being with opinions instead of being someone who's SOLELY defined by one aspect of their life.
Oh, okay. See I thought the whole basic human rights thing was the important issue here. My mistake!
See? This. This is the problem. You're smugly assuming that you're on the side of human rights and anyone who disagrees with you is against human rights. But have you actually read what Jenner said? She's basing her support for Ted Cruz on human rights as she understands them. Now, maybe her understanding is wrong or incomplete. But getting angry or snarky at her isn't going to fix that, is it? Maybe she'll learn something if you have a civil conversation with her. And instead of smugness, try on a little humility. Maybe your understanding is wrong or incomplete, and you'll learn something if you have a civil conversation with her.
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It truly is terrifying that could happen when people choose to define others by one single aspect of them isn't it?
The struggle to get there is still ongoing, and people like Ted Cruz are on the side that she should be punished. She wants to skip this and go straight to the just world where she has the freedom to not be defined by her identity.
Oh, okay. See I thought the whole basic human rights thing was the important issue here. My mistake!
See? This. This is the problem. You're smugly assuming that you're on the side of human rights and anyone who disagrees with you is against human rights. But have you actually read what Jenner said? She's basing her support for Ted Cruz on human rights as she understands them. Now, maybe her understanding is wrong or incomplete. But getting angry or snarky at her isn't going to fix that, is it? Maybe she'll learn something if you have a civil conversation with her. And instead of smugness, try on a little humility. Maybe your understanding is wrong or incomplete, and you'll learn something if you have a civil conversation with her.
Where did I assume that anyone who disagrees with me is against human rights? I thought I was just pointing out the relative inanity of what you were talking about.
I have read what Jenner has said, a hell of a lot. She's a major figure in transgender politics, and that directly affects me. I have to be worried about public opinion, about the state of pro- and anti-transgender legislation. These things can severely limit where I can live in North America, and public backlash against things like allowing transgender people to use public washrooms can increase the already significant risk of being harassed or worse on the street (which has happened to me.) I can barely go a week following transgender issues without hearing about Jenner.
Ultimately, my job is not to sit down with a rich celebrity and try to educate her or have a debate with her. The literature and dialogue is out there; there are people close to her and over the Internet alike trying to educate her, to hear her out and convince her to change her mind. It is her choice to maintain her stance on transgender issues which a vast majority of transgender people do not approve of. As long as a figure with as much influence as Caitlyn Jenner is advocating positions which the majority of transgender people find unhelpful or even harmful, the only thing to do is to denounce her.
This obstructionism for the sake of obstructionism is infuriating. Transgender people are in an inordinate amount of danger today. Even in Canada, gender identity is still not a protected class in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I can legally be discriminated against for being transgender. Transgender people have extremely high rates for being harassed, raped, murdered, or driven to suicide. Action needs to be taken now, not after the endless intellectual masturbation of trying to achieve impossible levels of objective knowledge. The rights of so many of us must not be fought for passively, begging for the nice people to see our way instead of critiquing those who we feel are obstructing these vital measures of protection.
How am I the problem? Every day we fail to act, transgender people are victimized or killed. The gears of marginalization and disenfranchisement are greased with apathy. Acting is the only thing we can do. We must not be driven to fear of offending a public figure because we haven't had tea with them. The voices of the majority of transgender people must not be handwaved just because we could be wrong. We are the victims, the ones affected by legislative negligence. We do have authority on these issues. Our voices matter.
As an aside for those playing at home, one of my favourite games to play is to read something concerning transgender rights and then swap the subject. Turn transgender into black or women/females and see how the post reads. It is an amusing way to spot how similar the arguments being brought up today mirror other movements, such as the civil rights movement in the 60s.
I thought I was just pointing out the relative inanity of what you were talking about.
The relative inanity of a dysfunctional political culture that is making it increasingly difficult to govern the most powerful nation on earth? Where do you think the gridlock over trans issues and countless other topics is coming from?
The rights of so many of us must not be fought for passively, begging for the nice people to see our way instead of critiquing those who we feel are obstructing these vital measures of protection.
Critique is exactly what you should be doing. Calling Caitlyn Jenner names does not constitute critique.
Your voice only matters when you say something meaningful with it. That isn't a value judgment; that's a statement of cause and effect. If all you do is toss snark and insults, then your voice doesn't matter, not because I don't like it, but because snark and insults lack any real power. Making your voice matter, adding something to the conversation -- that takes effort.
As an aside for those playing at home, one of my favourite games to play is to read something concerning transgender rights and then swap the subject. Turn transgender into black or women/females and see how the post reads. It is an amusing way to spot how similar the arguments being brought up today mirror other movements, such as the civil rights movement in the 60s.
There's that smugness again. And you're explicitly trying to score points by playing to the crowd rather than actually have a conversation with me. But let's examine what you're claiming. Replace Caitlyn Jenner with a 1963 black leader concerned that Martin Luther King was making too much noise by breaking laws. How did King respond? He wrote the Letter from Birmingham Jail, one of the greatest persuasive texts ever to appear in the English language. He addressed such concerned black leaders to lay out his case, passionately and with immaculate clarity, for why his approach was both morally and strategically the best option. He did not rage at them or denounce them or call them "lunatics" and "Uncle Toms". He spoke to them as equals, intelligent men and women who disagreed with him but who could be reasoned with. He did not speak about them in sarcastic and derogatory ways for the entertainment of the peanut gallery. He opened doors. He built bridges. He performed whatever constructive metaphor you care to imagine.
You think I'm the bad guy in this civil rights drama? I'm telling you to be more like Martin Luther King. Just because you're on the right side of history doesn't mean you can say or do whatever and then drape yourself in his mantle. You have to actually do what he did.
Jesus, what? I'm not calling you a bad guy. I'm not trying to mantle MLK. I thought I was having some casual conversation in WCT, insisting that the subject of trans rights is what should be focused on here rather than much broader complaints about modern political discourse, but then I start getting attacked like I was posting in Debate the whole time. If I wanted a debate, I'd post in Debate. I'm not gonna act like a saint in every public interaction, but it's not like all I do is insular or snarky or whatever you'd call it. For example, if I ever trick myself into writing a transgender-in-Magic article for the front page, it'll be open and constructive because an article with bare opinions is not productive. But do I really have to be like that all the time, in every casual environment?
I'm bowing out now. This ***** is starting to get plenty stressful, and that's not what I asked for by posting in this particular subforum. Congrats on baiting me this far; it's a lot further than I'd normally bother with nowadays.
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Basically, Jenner supports Ted Cruz. A couple people got really angry as a result.
I just found it really funny that these people take really take their identity politics seriously.
Like, Ted "maybe the Planned Parenthood shooter is a transgendered leftist activist*" Cruz is pretty consistently an ******** to trans people. I mean, for example, he blocked the LGBT Equality Act, meaning trans people can be fired for no better reason than being trans (and presumably, employed by a bigot).
Identity politics are pretty important when you're part of a group that is statistically more likely to live in poverty (also, among other things, to be raped or be murdered) than the wider population. That's why trans people as a group generally don't support the zodiac killer**.
It's also why Black Lives Matter got started by black people significantly before fox news started All Lives Matter. Because identity matters if people hate you for it.
*The shooter was quickly revealed to be a mentally disturbed cis man with a pretty standard mix of right wing beliefs, btw. Didn't stop Cruz from pushing the rumor.
**I know what his birth certificate says, but Obama got enough grief from birthers that I'm willing to push this for the lulz. My post would be too sad otherwise.
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I'm curious what rights are those>?
Voting, marriage, access to space.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Woow I did not know some Americans want apartheid. That is pretty terrible. I understand why you are unhappy.
Can I ask you the details on what party in the us wants gays, blacks (as you put it) and the poor not to have voting rights? I'm not aware of any such campaign but seeing as I come from a country that had such bad ideas I would be curious as to see how such a thing could be defended.
Nice things like being able to use a public washroom, employers barred from refusing to hire you based on your gender identity, and such? It'd really suck to have to worry about not having nice things like that.
The Republican party is actively passing laws that make it more difficult for people, particularly the poor, to vote. In Alabama, they passed a law requiring that everyone have a driver's license or state ID issued by the DMV to vote, and then subsequently announced the closure of multiple DMVs that served predominantly black and poor areas.
Voter ID laws can also be used to suppress the trans vote, because trans individuals are more likely to have a name and appearance that does not match that of their government-issued IDs.
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Nice things like people talking out their disagreements and a government that actually governs.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It is increasingly difficult to talk about serious political differences when our social views are so skewed. Treating every person with respect and offering everyone equal treatment should be the base line we can all agree on. But we don't, so everything past that gets even harder.
I find it funny that the people mentioned in the article lambasted Caitlyn Jenner because she isn't saying things they expect her to say.
It's almost like they never cared who she is as a person and got shocked when they realized she's an actual human being with opinions instead of being someone who's SOLELY defined by one aspect of their life.
In Which a GOP lawmaker admits that voter ID law is racist. And here is John Oliver with a take down of voter ID laws, again. These voter ID laws are about suppressing demographics that vote Democrat, including race. It's another example of the southern strategy at work, and is just the next step from forced bussing.
A list of people who wish that being transgendered wasn't their SOLELY defining feature.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It truly is terrifying that could happen when people choose to define others by one single aspect of them isn't it?
The struggle to get there is still ongoing, and people like Ted Cruz are on the side that she should be punished. She wants to skip this and go straight to the just world where she has the freedom to not be defined by her identity.
Where did I assume that anyone who disagrees with me is against human rights? I thought I was just pointing out the relative inanity of what you were talking about.
I have read what Jenner has said, a hell of a lot. She's a major figure in transgender politics, and that directly affects me. I have to be worried about public opinion, about the state of pro- and anti-transgender legislation. These things can severely limit where I can live in North America, and public backlash against things like allowing transgender people to use public washrooms can increase the already significant risk of being harassed or worse on the street (which has happened to me.) I can barely go a week following transgender issues without hearing about Jenner.
Ultimately, my job is not to sit down with a rich celebrity and try to educate her or have a debate with her. The literature and dialogue is out there; there are people close to her and over the Internet alike trying to educate her, to hear her out and convince her to change her mind. It is her choice to maintain her stance on transgender issues which a vast majority of transgender people do not approve of. As long as a figure with as much influence as Caitlyn Jenner is advocating positions which the majority of transgender people find unhelpful or even harmful, the only thing to do is to denounce her.
This obstructionism for the sake of obstructionism is infuriating. Transgender people are in an inordinate amount of danger today. Even in Canada, gender identity is still not a protected class in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I can legally be discriminated against for being transgender. Transgender people have extremely high rates for being harassed, raped, murdered, or driven to suicide. Action needs to be taken now, not after the endless intellectual masturbation of trying to achieve impossible levels of objective knowledge. The rights of so many of us must not be fought for passively, begging for the nice people to see our way instead of critiquing those who we feel are obstructing these vital measures of protection.
How am I the problem? Every day we fail to act, transgender people are victimized or killed. The gears of marginalization and disenfranchisement are greased with apathy. Acting is the only thing we can do. We must not be driven to fear of offending a public figure because we haven't had tea with them. The voices of the majority of transgender people must not be handwaved just because we could be wrong. We are the victims, the ones affected by legislative negligence. We do have authority on these issues. Our voices matter.
As an aside for those playing at home, one of my favourite games to play is to read something concerning transgender rights and then swap the subject. Turn transgender into black or women/females and see how the post reads. It is an amusing way to spot how similar the arguments being brought up today mirror other movements, such as the civil rights movement in the 60s.
What exactly am I obstructing?
Critique is exactly what you should be doing. Calling Caitlyn Jenner names does not constitute critique.
It's not a question of action versus inaction. It's a question of productive action versus unproductive action.
Your voice only matters when you say something meaningful with it. That isn't a value judgment; that's a statement of cause and effect. If all you do is toss snark and insults, then your voice doesn't matter, not because I don't like it, but because snark and insults lack any real power. Making your voice matter, adding something to the conversation -- that takes effort.
There's that smugness again. And you're explicitly trying to score points by playing to the crowd rather than actually have a conversation with me. But let's examine what you're claiming. Replace Caitlyn Jenner with a 1963 black leader concerned that Martin Luther King was making too much noise by breaking laws. How did King respond? He wrote the Letter from Birmingham Jail, one of the greatest persuasive texts ever to appear in the English language. He addressed such concerned black leaders to lay out his case, passionately and with immaculate clarity, for why his approach was both morally and strategically the best option. He did not rage at them or denounce them or call them "lunatics" and "Uncle Toms". He spoke to them as equals, intelligent men and women who disagreed with him but who could be reasoned with. He did not speak about them in sarcastic and derogatory ways for the entertainment of the peanut gallery. He opened doors. He built bridges. He performed whatever constructive metaphor you care to imagine.
You think I'm the bad guy in this civil rights drama? I'm telling you to be more like Martin Luther King. Just because you're on the right side of history doesn't mean you can say or do whatever and then drape yourself in his mantle. You have to actually do what he did.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I'm bowing out now. This ***** is starting to get plenty stressful, and that's not what I asked for by posting in this particular subforum. Congrats on baiting me this far; it's a lot further than I'd normally bother with nowadays.