"Missing link found between Fjords and patriotism!"
-MTGS Survey 2014
Remember that for many of us, this is akin to having a nostalgic relationship with your hometown as a kid. We love the place because good memories mixed with physical appearance. I'm originally from this place here (marked with the "A"):
And so my feelings for Western Norway are primarily due to my own affiliation with the place. This feeling would be there regardless of whether national borders existed or not. I don't have the same sense of affiliation with areas of Norway where I haven't lived, or even with areas where I have lived, but don't think are particularly beautiful (like where I live right now - Asker, a suburb of Oslo).
Also, what's up with the East Germany/West Germany split in that report? As we know, they were united into one country a little over 23 years ago, so that seems fairly obsolete.
And I'm going to challenge your imagination with the concept of linear time. Check those dates, dude.
NORC Report is one year older than your source. I would also like to point out things regarding the survey you linked to, such as..
Quote from The Australian »
The magazine does not reveal the sample size, survey date or methodology but concludes that “Australians are almost as exuberant about their country as they are about sport”.
In addition, the company behind the survey, the Reputation Institute, is known for polling stakeholders and investors. Notice how this ties to the fact that Australia was hit very low by the worldwide recession. I would also like to note that there is a trend of nationalism in average citizens being on the rise during recessions. I can't claim to know for sure, but I can make an educated assumption about the group that was being questioned for the survey.
Also, what's up with the East Germany/West Germany split in that report? As we know, they were united into one country a little over 23 years ago, so that seems fairly obsolete.
Here's an article. You have to realize that most people polled were alive when they were united - the event might've affected the different sides differently. One side might've seen it in a more positive light than the other.
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
Oh funny, I haven't logged in here for months, maybe a year, but this thread certainly gave me a venue to vent and I'll certainly seize the opportunity.
See that table there? Where it says Chile is even more patriotic than the United States? It's goddamn true, terribly obnoxiously horribly true!
It's just that I can't comprehend it, it's just such an horrible sentiment, and it feels so empty; being proud of your country for what? Simply being it? Chilean culture is horrible in that respect, our jingoism such that we not only love our country in an exagerated manner, for no good reason at all in the first place, but it's most often than not expressed in disgust on comparison with our neighbors, people truly look down on our northern neighbors thinking of them as if they were an inferior race, the average citizen is borderline xenophobic, or openly so, but the government encourages it, our relations with Argentina is little better, and the worst thing is that they hate us back for it, and with reason, we think ourselves superior to them, for no real good reason truly, but damn if we're proud of our country, right?
We've got nothing to be proud of, truly, our country has little big accomplishments on it's history and those are by far outshined by the attrocities that have happened here, yet people are oblivious to them, prefering to love the country above all else because, heck, we've got a high IDH, right? We're the first country in Latin America considered a "first world one! yay! Ugh, I hate this, more often than not patriotism feels like government brainwashing to me, trying to keep the masses dumb and forming some kind of worship to such empty concept as our fatherland to, in that way, overlook our faults, because we're superior! See?. Sweeping over the rug or overlooking our faults, I can't stand that sentiment.
Now that brings me to another point, I've seen this repeated many times, for I moderate another forum for an historical strategic game modification I and some others made, and we decided to include some often overlooked countries, that showed me some harsh truth though, that when it comes to patriotism, the smaller and pettiest your country is, it seems that the more that patriotism is exacerbated.
There's countless fights I've had to dissolve on people from the Balkans fighting over who had the least-worst country, and every so often someone claims that "if it weren't for those damn turks our country would totally be a world power by now! unlike those guys from neighboring country X! I've seen it happen just so many times it's not even funny, and the same thing happens here in Latin America, Peruvians badmouthing chileans badmouthing argentineans badmouthing bolivians, they fight over such petty things even when in the grand scheme of things the rest of the world doesn't even care. (I bet most people stopped reading my rant a good while ago because, well, Chile, who cares? right?) Why being proud of your country? Even more important, why being proud of your country for no real reason at all? What's the damn point?!? The sentiment brings nothing but animosity and hate between people, it's the only thing I've seen so far.
But yeah, we've got fjords, and some damn good beautiful ones at that, maybe that justifies it all in the end?
FTLOG, what are you on about as well?
At least you appear to be facetious and intentionally comical in your delivery, and I have appreciated that very much.
He sums it up pretty well, but it's not like it's a new attitude or anything.
Yes, indeed. I recall doing schooling in Australia and discussing multiple interpretations or readings of various racial issues a few decades ago; the song remains the same.
I'm reminded of the (somewhat explict) Rap News episode about Australia day (I think it was ep. 11?). As far as a parody goes, it was disturbingly close to reality.
Sorry, could you please link me to this if it wouldn't break any laws or rules? Thanks.
Well, as I said, I had to rant, I had to be facetious too because, well, it's not such an important matter to really be that serious about it.
Now, for a straighter answer:
The geographical area bounded by my country's borders?
Love it, the incredibly unique and varied geography enclosed within it, it's everything I could ask for and more. Chile's truly a good sample of what the world has to offer.
The people who live in my country
There's people I love in my country? Yes, of course there is, most of my family, and friends are here, the average chilean however? The ultrapatriotic veering on xenophobic and who has no idea on their roots nor what's going on in the world around them? Sorry, but no.
The values held by the people of my country
Guess I answered already up there, we've got some good values, yes, but they are by far overshawed by our many flaws that we keep perpetuating.
The values that I think were held by the founders of my country
Ugh, no, each and every one of them was a backstabber that got rid of the others as soon as the dust settled, fomenting a centralized power that, while organized, was extremely unjust for those who lived far from the capital, the independance only benefited the aristocracy, if any.
My country's government
It has managed to keep the economy going and us out of crisis, yes, but that's the only good thing I could say, our constitution is outdated, our government is really backwards on many matters, the politicians are on a rush to privatize everything, poor citizens be damned, truly, our country is a ticking bomb waiting to explode into recession sooner or later.
Famous people from my country
Is there any? Like, has anyone ever heard of famous chileans? There's a handful of course, the Nobel Laureats mostly, who are excellent rolemodels indeed, but even then, they are few, waay too few.
My country's devotion to a specific religion
Catholicism I guess, I've got nothing against it, then again, being faithful is mostly dependant on which region of the country you're living.
The founding documents of my country
Independance ones? Pure Garbage? the constitution that truly shaped the country? Bloody Brilliant; oppresive? Perhaps, but damn if it wasn't the right solution to the country's problems and they truly helped us get going as a country, quite well in fact.
Products made in my country
Heh, I hate typical chilean food, I like some things made in Chile I guess but, well, there's not that many products, we mostly export raw materials.
My country's military strength
Too big, particularly for a country that hasn't been on war for more than 100 years, says a lot about how paranoid the ruling class is, really.
My country's intervention in the affairs of the world for causes we consider justified
Not much to be honest, not that I consider it good or bad but truly, there's not much to say in the respect, as we mostly stay neutral.
Does it mean any or all of the above? I'd say all of it, as our country, as a whole, is this, the people that inhabit it, it's geography and the history and customs behind it.
Am I proud of my country? No, as an average we've got way too much of an inflated ego while paradoxically also having an inferiority complex regarding Europe and the 'States, that have always been taken as our model to follow, for some odd reason. There's little things that my country, as a whole, has accomplished and as such, I see no reason to be proud of.
What do these questions mean to me? Mostly the sum of all the other former questions. Is love the appropiate word to define what you feel for your country? Maybe, but in an ideal world, I'd rather it not be.
Yes, indeed. I recall doing schooling in Australia and discussing multiple interpretations or readings of various racial issues a few decades ago; the song remains the same.
Being Mexican and Cherokee my feelings toward the US are...mixed, at the least. Having been to Mexico, I'd rather live here than in Mexico. But it's hard not to recognize that on a good portion of my family side there is a huge history of oppression, disenfranchisement, and hatred. I have a friend who grew up on the Qualla rez and most people just don't know how many American Indians live to this day. I lived in similar conditions without running water or electricity or a toilet to crap in. We have endless money for aircraft carriers but can't even provide clean drinking water to many people.
People are starting to "wake up," so to speak, and realize the American Dream is a myth from trashy Horatio Alger novels. The thing is, for those of us who grew up in those conditions, we've known for generations that the American Dream was a lie, or at least not made for folks like us.
I don't love the entire United States; but, I have deep admiration for my home state of California for being the technological trendsetter in the world (in terms of software and computing hardware).
How California have all the high tech companies I don't understand... and it does it manages to maintain its place tech revolution after tech revolution from PCs to the Internet and now in the smartphone/mobile era. Compare this to Japan, which is losing its competitiveness relative to South Korea and, in some aspects, even China.
I'm going to challenge your source of a branding institute with a university. See: NORC report. World Values Survey also polled people based on who was proud of their nationality, and the Ireland and US were tied for first place in 2005.
I don't identify a number of the questions asked in your survey with "patriotism".
For example:
“I would rather be a citizen of my country than any other country in the world”
Yes, I would agree with this statement; but, it has nothing to do with unrequited love for my country. The United States is an affluent nation. Naturally, individuals prefer a more comfortable lifestyle over a harsher one. But, you can live in an affluent nation and prefer to live there and never wave a miniature flag or pledge allegiance. Where's the "patriotism" in that scenario?
I don't identify a number of the questions asked in your survey with "patriotism".
For example:
“I would rather be a citizen of my country than any other country in the world”
Yes, I would agree with this statement; but, it has nothing to do with unrequited love for my country. The United States is an affluent nation. Naturally, individuals prefer a more comfortable lifestyle over a harsher one. But, you can live in an affluent nation and prefer to live there and never wave a miniature flag or pledge allegiance. Where's the "patriotism" in that scenario?
But there are plenty of "affluent" countries in the world, so it can't be just that. There must be some small amount of "patriotism", or at least resistance to change, to say that you would still choose your own country given the freedom to choose any other country in the entire world. Unless you think there is actually an *objectively* "best" country in the world, and that it just so happens to be the one you already live in?
I don't identify a number of the questions asked in your survey with "patriotism".
For example:
“I would rather be a citizen of my country than any other country in the world”
Yes, I would agree with this statement; but, it has nothing to do with unrequited love for my country. The United States is an affluent nation. Naturally, individuals prefer a more comfortable lifestyle over a harsher one. But, you can live in an affluent nation and prefer to live there and never wave a miniature flag or pledge allegiance. Where's the "patriotism" in that scenario?
But there are plenty of "affluent" countries in the world, so it can't be just that. There must be some small amount of "patriotism", or at least resistance to change, to say that you would still choose your own country given the freedom to choose any other country in the entire world. Unless you think there is actually an *objectively* "best" country in the world, and that it just so happens to be the one you already live in?
Resistance to change does not equal "patriotism".
I'd also like to note that the question poised does not ask whether if you live in the "best" country in the world but merely live in the country you as an individual most prefer. While it is difficult attaining an objectively "best" country for every person, it is a rather easy process for the individual.
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Remember that for many of us, this is akin to having a nostalgic relationship with your hometown as a kid. We love the place because good memories mixed with physical appearance. I'm originally from this place here (marked with the "A"):
And so my feelings for Western Norway are primarily due to my own affiliation with the place. This feeling would be there regardless of whether national borders existed or not. I don't have the same sense of affiliation with areas of Norway where I haven't lived, or even with areas where I have lived, but don't think are particularly beautiful (like where I live right now - Asker, a suburb of Oslo).
Also, what's up with the East Germany/West Germany split in that report? As we know, they were united into one country a little over 23 years ago, so that seems fairly obsolete.
NORC Report is one year older than your source. I would also like to point out things regarding the survey you linked to, such as..
In addition, the company behind the survey, the Reputation Institute, is known for polling stakeholders and investors. Notice how this ties to the fact that Australia was hit very low by the worldwide recession. I would also like to note that there is a trend of nationalism in average citizens being on the rise during recessions. I can't claim to know for sure, but I can make an educated assumption about the group that was being questioned for the survey.
I take it that your point is that WCT is the wrong subforum for serious discussion about this subject?
Here's an article. You have to realize that most people polled were alive when they were united - the event might've affected the different sides differently. One side might've seen it in a more positive light than the other.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
FTLOG, what are you on about as well?
At least you appear to be facetious and intentionally comical in your delivery, and I have appreciated that very much.
Yes, indeed. I recall doing schooling in Australia and discussing multiple interpretations or readings of various racial issues a few decades ago; the song remains the same.
Sorry, could you please link me to this if it wouldn't break any laws or rules? Thanks.
Sorry, what?
Now, for a straighter answer:
The geographical area bounded by my country's borders?
Love it, the incredibly unique and varied geography enclosed within it, it's everything I could ask for and more. Chile's truly a good sample of what the world has to offer.
The people who live in my country
There's people I love in my country? Yes, of course there is, most of my family, and friends are here, the average chilean however? The ultrapatriotic veering on xenophobic and who has no idea on their roots nor what's going on in the world around them? Sorry, but no.
The values held by the people of my country
Guess I answered already up there, we've got some good values, yes, but they are by far overshawed by our many flaws that we keep perpetuating.
The values that I think were held by the founders of my country
Ugh, no, each and every one of them was a backstabber that got rid of the others as soon as the dust settled, fomenting a centralized power that, while organized, was extremely unjust for those who lived far from the capital, the independance only benefited the aristocracy, if any.
My country's government
It has managed to keep the economy going and us out of crisis, yes, but that's the only good thing I could say, our constitution is outdated, our government is really backwards on many matters, the politicians are on a rush to privatize everything, poor citizens be damned, truly, our country is a ticking bomb waiting to explode into recession sooner or later.
Famous people from my country
Is there any? Like, has anyone ever heard of famous chileans? There's a handful of course, the Nobel Laureats mostly, who are excellent rolemodels indeed, but even then, they are few, waay too few.
My country's devotion to a specific religion
Catholicism I guess, I've got nothing against it, then again, being faithful is mostly dependant on which region of the country you're living.
The founding documents of my country
Independance ones? Pure Garbage? the constitution that truly shaped the country? Bloody Brilliant; oppresive? Perhaps, but damn if it wasn't the right solution to the country's problems and they truly helped us get going as a country, quite well in fact.
Products made in my country
Heh, I hate typical chilean food, I like some things made in Chile I guess but, well, there's not that many products, we mostly export raw materials.
My country's military strength
Too big, particularly for a country that hasn't been on war for more than 100 years, says a lot about how paranoid the ruling class is, really.
My country's intervention in the affairs of the world for causes we consider justified
Not much to be honest, not that I consider it good or bad but truly, there's not much to say in the respect, as we mostly stay neutral.
Does it mean any or all of the above? I'd say all of it, as our country, as a whole, is this, the people that inhabit it, it's geography and the history and customs behind it.
Am I proud of my country? No, as an average we've got way too much of an inflated ego while paradoxically also having an inferiority complex regarding Europe and the 'States, that have always been taken as our model to follow, for some odd reason. There's little things that my country, as a whole, has accomplished and as such, I see no reason to be proud of.
What do these questions mean to me? Mostly the sum of all the other former questions. Is love the appropiate word to define what you feel for your country? Maybe, but in an ideal world, I'd rather it not be.
Yeah.
It's a bit explicit, so I PM'd you the link, rather than post it here.
Oh, happy Australia Day, lol!
Right, thanks. Much appreciated!
It's hilarious but also scathing and sad.
So, to you, it's all academic and it's a word.
Well, okay. It's all fine as long as you don't play with guns and hurt people, I guess.
People are starting to "wake up," so to speak, and realize the American Dream is a myth from trashy Horatio Alger novels. The thing is, for those of us who grew up in those conditions, we've known for generations that the American Dream was a lie, or at least not made for folks like us.
How California have all the high tech companies I don't understand... and it does it manages to maintain its place tech revolution after tech revolution from PCs to the Internet and now in the smartphone/mobile era. Compare this to Japan, which is losing its competitiveness relative to South Korea and, in some aspects, even China.
I don't identify a number of the questions asked in your survey with "patriotism".
For example:
“I would rather be a citizen of my country than any other country in the world”
Yes, I would agree with this statement; but, it has nothing to do with unrequited love for my country. The United States is an affluent nation. Naturally, individuals prefer a more comfortable lifestyle over a harsher one. But, you can live in an affluent nation and prefer to live there and never wave a miniature flag or pledge allegiance. Where's the "patriotism" in that scenario?
But there are plenty of "affluent" countries in the world, so it can't be just that. There must be some small amount of "patriotism", or at least resistance to change, to say that you would still choose your own country given the freedom to choose any other country in the entire world. Unless you think there is actually an *objectively* "best" country in the world, and that it just so happens to be the one you already live in?
I'd also like to note that the question poised does not ask whether if you live in the "best" country in the world but merely live in the country you as an individual most prefer. While it is difficult attaining an objectively "best" country for every person, it is a rather easy process for the individual.