Sorry, Bocephus, but 8 pages and 3000+ views, and 118 posts into this thread, and I still don't know what your actual opinion of dogfighting is: What you actually think about the feelings of those who are humiliated by getting taken to a dogfight then finding out they are just being used for cruel amusement.
I've seen a lot of "you can't change people who do bad things", "wouldnt tell people what to do", "being bullied made me tough", some casual jokes and comments to about people letting off steam, etc. but despite my explicitly asking you multiple times to comment on scenarios or examples, you have not given your actual opinion on dogfighting
You've personally typed hundreds, maybe thousands of words into this thread, while managing to avoiding any kind of judgment about dogfighting: In you opinion, to what degree is dogfighting cruel or not cruel to the "ugly dates" who are unwittingly taken there under false pretenses, then often find themselves feeling humiliated when they figure out why they've been brought there? What would your feelings be on dogfighting and it's participants be if the scenario I outlined in the previous post with a daughter were to occur?
I don't think you're afraid to give your opinion in a basically anonymous forum because I never got the impression that you're afraid of offering even unpopular opinions. So don't be so coy. It's a thread about "dogfighting", not a thread about "is it OK to force your morality on others". Tell us what you actually think about "dogfighting". Please.
I dont have an opinion on it because I would never do it and I am not going to change those that would. I know it will still be done even if I could stop one or two or three from doing it...
Like I said, I know people who have done it, I am still friends with those who did it. I dont know what else to say. I understand people are bad to others and I dont concern myself with it. I understand both sides of this but I choose not to stand on either side. Most guys sow their oats (women too). If some choose to make a game of it, so be it.
@sisorus, I too dont believe just because you buy a woman a dinner and take her to a show or activity it entitles the man to any services from the woman. So yes I did misunderstand what you were trying to get across. As for talking about western culture, there is aranged marriages in western culture, its not talked about alot but it is.
I would like to nominate this thread for the following awards.
1. Most trolling in a concentrated thread.
2. Most white knights in a concentrated thread.
3. Most back and forth from casual discourse to vehement flaming, etc.
4. Off topic footnotes.
5. The longest running thread with the least amount of discussion on the actual topic.
I would like to nominate this thread for the following awards.
1. Most trolling in a concentrated thread.
2. Most white knights in a concentrated thread.
3. Most back and forth from casual discourse to vehement flaming, etc.
4. Off topic footnotes.
5. The longest running thread with the least amount of discussion on the actual topic.
I dont have an opinion on it because I would never do it and I am not going to change those that would. I know it will still be done even if I could stop one or two or three from doing it...
Like I said, I know people who have done it, I am still friends with those who did it. I dont know what else to say. I understand people are bad to others and I dont concern myself with it. I understand both sides of this but I choose not to stand on either side. Most guys sow their oats (women too). If some choose to make a game of it, so be it.
You did I it again.
You would NEVER do "dogfighting", yet you again you dodge commenting on exactly how bad it is, by claiming to not have an opinion. At least you added a "people are bad to others" that we can infer to mean people who "dogfight".
I've not asked you to give up friends. I've not asked you to change their behaviors. I've not asked you to call your friends out.
I've only asked you to give your honest opinion, and it feels like I'm pulling teeth with pliers to get it. Its becoming clearer from your responses that you don't want to share that opinion with us (maybe out of "courtesy" to people you otherwise like and admire, who do participate or have participated unrepentantly in "dogfighting"? ).
If I'm wrong, tell me so, and then explain how you can be so sure you would never do it, how you can know its being "bad to others", yet insist you have "no opinion".
If I'm right, tell me so, and I'll stop pestering you for your opinion.
You would NEVER do "dogfighting", yet you again you dodge commenting on exactly how bad it is, by claiming to not have an opinion. At least you added a "people are bad to others" that we can infer to mean people who "dogfight".
I've not asked you to give up friends. I've not asked you to change their behaviors. I've not asked you to call your friends out.
I've only asked you to give your honest opinion, and it feels like I'm pulling teeth with pliers to get it. Its becoming clearer from your responses that you don't want to share that opinion with us (maybe out of "courtesy" to people you otherwise like and admire, who do participate or have participated unrepentantly in "dogfighting"? ).
If I'm wrong, tell me so, and then explain how you can be so sure you would never do it, how you can know its being "bad to others", yet insist you have "no opinion".
If I'm right, tell me so, and I'll stop pestering you for your opinion.
I seriously dont have an opinion on it. You can keep asking but I dont. It has nothing to do with anyone I know that has done it, I just dont have an opinion about it.
I passed on it when asked when I was in college, I think I dont think I would do it now. Thats not saying some might enjoy it.
I dont understand why its so improtant to you I have an opinion on the practice. I try not to worry myself about things that dont effect me or my family.
I know it will still be done even if I could stop one or two or three from doing it...
I'll go with that.
I believe its impossible to discuss and read people's arguments about "dogfighting" as much as you have here, and not form some form of opinion of "how bad" it is or isn't, but it's 100% clear you're not going to share it.
Since you've repeatedly avoided any engagement on HOW much it might hurt the victims ( we illustrate in graphic detail how painful it can be, but you don't try to minimize how bad it is, you simply don't respond to any comments about how humiliating or mean it is ), that is a concession that you agree.
If I'm wrong, just say that "It's painful for the victims, but not really all that bad."
I dont understand why its so improtant to you I have an opinion on the practice.
I simply believe you have an opinion. It was important to me that you actually admit what that opinion is one way or another.
What you've done since the beginning of this thread is criticize those of us who have offered an opinion on the practice. But your criticism came in the form of telling us not to "control" people. Rather than actually engage on the level of the topic, you conceded your inability to contest our assertions of how mean and humiliating the practice is. Not even a whiff of an attempt to engage the topic on CONTENT. Just a lot of posts telling us to stop trying to "control" people's behavior. And absolute avoidance of addressing any discussion that humanized the victims & described how crappy it must feel.
It was the subconscious tactician in me going for the linchpin point, in your whole approach to this discussion, your "I have no opinion" is tactically equivalent to "let's leave my opinion out of it", only it's not credible. If you'd just said the latter, I would probably have dropped I earlier.
But I don't think it's worth pushing any harder.
If it was real life I would have dropped it long ago because you've made it clear you don't want to examine your own opinion on the matter any deeper. At least not for public consumption.
So we agree to disagree on the matter of whether you have formed an opinion on "dogfighting" after 8 pages of reading people's comments and pushing your own argument.
Do you realise this kind of attitude leads to uncivilized behaviour and also helps people doing bad things?
"Let's throw our garbage there, it doesn't affect me or my familly"
"Who cares if they are killing themselves in this country, it doesn't affect me or my familly"
"Burning jews? i'm not jew, who cares?"
Ok the last exemple is a bit harsh, but it's needed to remind people that having an opinion is important.
On that particular case, saying, i don't have an opinion is just justifying those people acts.
What if you had a daughter with sentimental difficulties that was brought to such party? Wouldn't you be hurt if she is coming back crying?
I just can't believe you don't think its a bad thing to do...
Those girls don't deserve it. They don't need to be punished more for being ugly.
Edit: after re-reading your line, i just realized you were maybe just saying that you don't want to get stressed or worry for something that's happening elsewhere... anyway, i'd love to hear you (as dcartist) at least expressing some empathy for those girls.
If it was a new practice and it was only men doing it to women, I may feel empathy for someone, but its a common practice by both sexes in todays dating world that has been going on for DECADES!
Dating in general has its awkward moments, heartbreak and pain. I just dont see how making it a game makes it any more cruel or painful. Life isnt fair, life in general is cruel.
Every time you step out of the house you have the of someone doing or saying something cruel to you. If something like dogfighting is going to hurt you (male or female) maybe you should stay home.
*when I say you, I am not meaning anyone person, I dont want anyone to think I am attacking them.
posted by dcartist-I believe its impossible to discuss and read people's arguments about "dogfighting" as much as you have here, and not form some form of opinion of "how bad" it is or isn't, but it's 100% clear you're not going to share it.
Its not good or bad, its life. Tell me you have never seen a butt ugly woman or man walking in the mall and you have not looked and maybe stared a little bit and I will call you a liar. Now some drop dead beautiful woman or man and you didnt look or maybe stare, again I would call you a liar. These people at the opposite ends of the spectrum in beauty understand and know people treat them different. So I have no opinion about something that is really no more cruel then life itself.
Dating in general has its awkward moments, heartbreak and pain.
that doesn't excuse the practice of "Dogfighting", because "dogfighting" isn't part of a "real date". It's entered under false pretenses. It's as much a "real date", as a girl luring the virgin kid to her house with the promise of sex, then lock him out of the house with only his underwear on, so her friends can shoot video of him and make fun of him.
I just dont see how making it a game makes it any more cruel or painful. Life isnt fair, life in general is cruel. Every time you step out of the house you have the of someone doing or saying something cruel to you. If something like dogfighting is going to hurt you (male or female) maybe you should stay home.
It is fascinating to watch you concede that dogfighting is "cruel and painful"... But somehow manage AGAIN to avoid explicitly saying it. You just avoid putting "dogfighting" and "cruel/painful" into the same sentence... Then you talk about other things including "life" being "cruel/painful"
Its not good or bad, its life.
and there is the unsupported leap. Deliberate, calculated "Cruelty" is "not good or bad"? If deliberate cruelty isn't "bad", WHAT can a person do that is "bad"?
I understood your "bullying makes you stronger" argument in an earlier post, being bullied sometimes is a part of life. So is being mugged. But bullying somebody is still "bad". Mugging somebody is "bad".
You are taking a huge leap from "bullying happens and is part of life" to "bullying somebody is NOT BAD OR GOOD".
Of course it's "bad". It's awful. Being bullied might make me stronger, but bullies themselves are *******s.
Tell me you have never seen a butt ugly woman or man walking in the mall and you have not looked and maybe stared a little bit and I will call you a liar. Now some drop dead beautiful woman or man and you didnt look or maybe stare, again I would call you a liar. These people at the opposite ends of the spectrum in beauty understand and know people treat them different. So I have no opinion about something that is really no more cruel then life itself.
"Dogfighting" is many times crueler than "staring a little bit" at somebody who is particularly ugly or beautiful.
The fact that people "stare a little bit" at somebody does not mean its OK to escalate to luring that somebody to a party to humiliate them for their ugliness in front of a crowd.
Do you really think that people who are "ugly" spend all day thinking "I'm so ugly" and have such miserable lives being stared at at the mall all day, that a "dogfight" becomes just another disappointment in a disappointing life? As people, we're all just trying to get by, workin with what we have, and most of us have felt ugly at one point or another. Being tricked into going to an "ugliest date" party would definitely be an exceptionally memorable and exceptionally humiliating event. Not just regular part of "life as a person with an ugly face".
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Society is impressed by somebody exceptionally smart, and feels sorry or dismissive of a guy who has Down syndrome or is cognitively challenged... That's part of life. Are you saying that it's "no more cruel" to go invite some people with Down syndrome as dates to come to your party, then make fun of them and crown a "king of the stupid"?
Society is dazzled by somebody exceptionally beautiful, and feels sorry or dismissive of a person who has a deformity or is just very ugly ... That's part of life. Are you saying that it's "no more cruel" to go invite a bunch of people with deformity or ugly face as dates to come to your party, then make fun of them and crown a "queen of the dogs"?
Thinking some stranger is not as smart as you are, is very different from setting up an elaborate prank to amuse yourself by humiliating that stranger.
So are you saying this? "She's used to being devalued by society for being ugly. Dcartist himself stared at her the other day at the mall. There's no harm in ruining next weekend for her as well by luring her to a dogfight. Its 'no more cruel than life' has been to her already."
Ugh. I had a whole long thing here that I lost because I mistyped my password when it asked me to log back in. I apologize if this comes off as aggressive, but I had a very long post discussing issues, that I do not have time to retype. Let me simplify:
The people who engage in and enjoy the so-called 'dogfights' are at best boys trying to reassure each other they are men. They're truly pathetic, as is anyone who gains pleasure from cruelty to others.
@ Rivaltuna - You are an arrogant young boy. You aren't a bad person, and you don't even really believe you are. I was like you at your age, and you'll realize 'friends' who can enjoy cruelty like that aren't really friends. How could they be? They're all arrogant, insecure and self-serving.
@ Bocephus - You are fooling yourself. If you didn't have an opinion, why do you keep posting defending about why you have no opinion? Yes, life is cruel, so why make it any more cruel for others when common decency is all it takes to make someone's life better?
I don't think either of you has actually experienced the real world. I have a cold rage inside me that I once allowed to make me an arrogant, cruel person, because I couldn't stand the sight of weakness. I was angry because I was constantly screamed at and told how worthless I was as child. I throttled the children who tried picking on me, or turned them on weaker children who would make easier targets than I would. Martial arts helped me channel that anger into contructive things, but without the wisdom to go along with my skill, I became arrogant as soon as things turned around in high school and I became more or less popular.
I also got very good at manipulating people to get what I want, and when I got older I believed, falsely, that because no one could stand up to me or make me stop, that I was justified. It almost caused me to lose the few true friends I had. The thing that broke me of this was learning of how my behavior hurt my first girlfriend, who I had become close friends with after breaking up. I had never actually stopped to consider how I was making people feel, and I hadn't cared to before. I was a child who only cared about getting his way.
Then, a good friend at the firehouse killed himself. No one had any idea he was even depressed. A few months later, I had to listen to a friend die while trapped in the car he wrapped around a tree, because in his youthful arrogance, he didn't think going twice the speed limit on a two lane road would have repercussions. I was in a wheelchair for months. As an EMT I've seen the cruelty of foolish mistakes as it has crippled or killed teenagers who thought they were sober enough to drive. The pain of people who had done nothing but been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The reason I mention any of this is to show you that I know that life is cruel, and nature doesn't give a damn about anyone. That's exactly why we have to care. There is no reason to be cruel to another person for entertainment. Life is cruel enough, especially for people who, through no fault of their own, are stuck dealing with cruel people their whole lives. I've never been more ashamed of myself than when I was cruel to people who didn't deserve it. If you think someone's ugly, that's fine. You don't have to be attracted to, or even like, everyone. But at the very least, you should avoid acting on cruel impulses. Acting on your impulses is what children and animals do.
If it was a new practice and it was only men doing it to women, I may feel empathy for someone, but its a common practice by both sexes in todays dating world that has been going on for DECADES!
I'm not eager to call this an appeal to tradition, because that would make "dogfighting" a tradition. But that's what the fallacy is here. Whether it has or hasn't been done for a period of time, what difference does that make?
Dating in general has its awkward moments, heartbreak and pain. I just dont see how making it a game makes it any more cruel or painful. Life isnt fair, life in general is cruel.
I notice that more often than not, "life isn't fair" is a phrase used an excuse by people who desire to keep it as such. Case in point.
Every time you step out of the house you have the of someone doing or saying something cruel to you. If something like dogfighting is going to hurt you (male or female) maybe you should stay home.
Does this apply to emotional injury only? How about physical injury?
Remind me again: why are you devoted to defend this behavior?
Its not good or bad, its life.
Oh that's why - no good or bad?
OK let's get to the problem again.
You say there's no good or bad, though paradoxically you subscribe to the golden rule in your personal life.
Then at the same time, you are devoted to proving to us that this behavior is not bad... because it would be bad if we acted as if this behavior is bad.... since there is no bad... but that would be bad.
Try again.
Tell me you have never seen a butt ugly woman or man walking in the mall and you have not looked and maybe stared a little bit and I will call you a liar. Now some drop dead beautiful woman or man and you didnt look or maybe stare, again I would call you a liar. These people at the opposite ends of the spectrum in beauty understand and know people treat them different. So I have no opinion about something that is really no more cruel then life itself.
1) We have unconscious reactions based on our biology.
2) We make conscious choices.
3) We make deliberations.
As Tiax pointed out earlier, we're talking about category 3 here, not category 1.
dogfighting is no more cruel then blind dating. Anyone who has gone to the bar for a 'hook up' and ended up with a ugly person the next morning has had a dogfight that didnt pay off. People go out to not have a long lasting relationship, but a date or 'just' sex. Its a part of life, it happens, get over it. Again this isnt an exclusive thing to guys or girls, both sexes enjoy the practice and its been going on for decades. If it was really that hurtful to anyone, dont you think the practice would have gone away over time?
@Jay13x, you dont know me, so I dont know hwo you could say you dont think I have experienced real life. I dont think you have if you feel this practice is any more cruel then thing that happen every day to people. I think those that are up in arms about this have lead sheltered lives and dont understand what real life is.
The reason I mention any of this is to show you that I know that life is cruel, and nature doesn't give a damn about anyone. That's exactly why we have to care. There is no reason to be cruel to another person for entertainment.
This statement here makes me think you have no idea about life and how cruel it is. Have you turned on a TV in, in oooh say the past 10 years? Reality TV is all about entertaining the MASSES with cruelty to humans. Dogfighting is no different and on a smaller scale.
I hope anyone claiming dogfighting is cruel doesnt watch beauty pagents or reality TV, because you all would be in for a rude awakening. Or are just plain hypocrites.
Acting on your impulses is what children and animals do.
Just pointing out, we are animals. No matter how much some want to feel we have evolved past animalistic urges, we are still animals at heart.
Just pointing out, we are animals. No matter how much some want to feel we have evolved past animalistic urges, we are still animals at heart.
What some of us are trying to figure out is why you're fighting so hard to keep it that way.
This statement here makes me think you have no idea about life and how cruel it is. Have you turned on a TV in, in oooh say the past 10 years? Reality TV is all about entertaining the MASSES with cruelty to humans. Dogfighting is no different and on a smaller scale.
I hope anyone claiming dogfighting is cruel doesnt watch beauty pagents or reality TV, because you all would be in for a rude awakening. Or are just plain hypocrites.
I don't watch boxing or MMA. I don't watch Saw or Quentin Tarantino films. I don't play Grand Theft Auto. I don't take pleasure in the pain of another human being, or even at the idea of needlessly harming a fictional human being.
I agree with you, such people have a blind spot. But this is a topic for another time.
dogfighting is no more cruel then blind dating. Anyone who has gone to the bar for a 'hook up' and ended up with a ugly person the next morning has had a dogfight that didnt pay off.
Could it be that you've gone this far into the thread and don't actually know what a dogfight is? Dogfighting is the following:
A group of guys get together and agree to have a party. Each guy throws a certain amount of money in the pot. They then go out and intentionally, and under their full faculties invite the ugliest girl they can find.
At the party, towards the end they use some predetermined method (such as voting) to determine who the ugliest girl at the party is and award the person who invited the ugly girl the pot.
Now, explain to me how thats at all related to your analogy?
People go out to not have a long lasting relationship, but a date or 'just' sex. Its a part of life, it happens, get over it. Again this isnt an exclusive thing to guys or girls, both sexes enjoy the practice and its been going on for decades. If it was really that hurtful to anyone, dont you think the practice would have gone away over time?
If murder, as a practice, was really hurtful to anyone don't you think the practice would have gone away over time?
Wait, that question makes no sense. Just like it makes no sense in your post either.
Could it be that you've gone this far into the thread and don't actually know what a dogfight is? Dogfighting is the following:
A group of guys get together and agree to have a party. Each guy throws a certain amount of money in the pot. They then go out and intentionally, and under their full faculties invite the ugliest girl they can find.
At the party, towards the end they use some predetermined method (such as voting) to determine who the ugliest girl at the party is and award the person who invited the ugly girl the pot.
Now, explain to me how thats at all related to your analogy?
If murder, as a practice, was really hurtful to anyone don't you think the practice would have gone away over time?
Wait, that question makes no sense. Just like it makes no sense in your post either.
I know what dogfighting is, I posted a link to a 90s movie about it going on during WWII. I have said multiple times I saw it going on in college. I know people who played, both male and female. (the game is not exclusive to the male gender)
Again, I dont find it any worse then being set up on a blind date. You take your chances in the dating world. Its why dating services are so popular, people trying to take the 'chance' out of dating.
dogfighting not illegal,if it was dating would have to be outlawed. Murder on the other hand...:rolleyes: lets compare apples to apples please. One practice people want stopped (for the most part), the other people are pitching in to play.
I know what dogfighting is, I posted a link to a 90s movie about it going on during WWII. I have said multiple times I saw it going on in college. I know people who played, both male and female. (the game is not exclusive to the male gender)
Right, I know. Which is why your analogy makes no sense. It's nothing like dating, or using a dating service.
Bad dates happen. Bad dates are not cruelty. Doggfighting is cruelty. There's really no other word that describes it. It is intentionally deriving enjoyment out of the misery and suffering of others. Not only that, but out of misery and suffering that you intentionally inflicted!
Again, I dont find it any worse then being set up on a blind date. You take your chances in the dating world. Its why dating services are so popular, people trying to take the 'chance' out of dating.
The difference being of course, that being set up on a blind date both people go in expecting at least something they will enjoy, and neither person is looking to be cruel to the other.
dogfighting not illegal,if it was dating would have to be outlawed. Murder on the other hand...:rolleyes: lets compare apples to apples please. One practice people want stopped (for the most part), the other people are pitching in to play.
You know, there are people looking to participate in murder too. And there are people wanting dogfighting to be stopped (or are you really that incapable of understanding anything in this thread?).
The legality of murder is irrelevant to the analogy.
Right, I know. Which is why your analogy makes no sense. It's nothing like dating, or using a dating service.
Bad dates happen. Bad dates are not cruelty. Doggfighting is cruelty. There's really no other word that describes it. It is intentionally deriving enjoyment out of the misery and suffering of others. Not only that, but out of misery and suffering that you intentionally inflicted!
The difference being of course, that being set up on a blind date both people go in expecting at least something they will enjoy, and neither person is looking to be cruel to the other.
Thats a pretty freaking huge difference.
I am just going to assume you had a pretty tame dating life. Never showed up to a date and got the door slammed in your face because of your looks or what you were wearing, never got left in the middle of a date because they found someone more appealing. I am telling you the dating world is cruel, plain and simple.
You know, there are people looking to participate in murder too. And there are people wanting dogfighting to be stopped (or are you really that incapable of understanding anything in this thread?).
The legality of murder is irrelevant to the analogy.
I dont know how to respond to this, if you wish to waste your time trying to stop a practice thats been going on for ages, that is not illegal.. have at it. Its like trying to stop the sales of strawberry icecream because you dont like strawberries. Its just mind blowing to me how some feel so strongly about this subject.
I am just going to assume you had a pretty tame dating life. Never showed up to a date and got the door slammed in your face because of your looks or what you were wearing, never got left in the middle of a date because they found someone more appealing. I am telling you the dating world is cruel, plain and simple.
And I am telling thats irrelevant to whether this particular practice is right or wrong. Because this particular practices ISN'T PART OF THE DATING WORLD.
What's more, its not an excuse to say "well other people do bad stuff in other ways". Nor is it a justification.
I dont know how to respond to this, if you wish to waste your time trying to stop a practice thats been going on for ages, that is not illegal.. have at it. Its like trying to stop the sales of strawberry icecream because you dont like strawberries. Its just mind blowing to me how some feel so strongly about this subject.
Theres a differnece between thinking people should be prohibited from doing something by law and thinking its wrong and cruel for them to do it.
Whats mind blowing to me is that you acknowledge that it is cruel. That it is a complete dickmove, and then lie to yourself and say "but I don't have na opinion on whether it is right or wrong".
@Jay13x, you dont know me, so I dont know hwo you could say you dont think I have experienced real life. I dont think you have if you feel this practice is any more cruel then thing that happen every day to people. I think those that are up in arms about this have lead sheltered lives and dont understand what real life is.
I'm not going to get in a contest with you about who's 'experienced' more life.
Yes, life is cruel, but apathy isn't the answer. There are a lot of things we can't do anything about, which you mention. But we can help contribute to a culture of compassion, rather than one of of apathetic surrender. "Oh well" doesn't cut it. I can't do anything about mothers in child pageants without going outside the law and ruining my own life, but I can treat people with respect. I can tell someone something isn't funny, or their attitude isn't appropriate, and at least hope they are self-aware enough to do some introspection and decide if I was right. I'm going to fail a lot, but I will still make other people's lives better, even if only by a miniscule amount.
'Dog Fighting' is a deliberately cruel practice that doesn't have to happen. There is no reason to lead a person on just as part of a mean-spirited competition. The only people that engage in it or approve of it are other small people. I can't stop little men from doing something like this, but I also don't have to accept it as inevitable.
just pointing out, we are animals. No matter how much some want to feel we have evolved past animalistic urges, we are still animals at heart.
Yes, I know we are animals. But we don't have to live like animals. That was my point - we don't have to act on instinct. It's easy to say this kind of thing when you live in a country like the United States, and when you never have to truly experience dog-eat-dog. When you've never actually had to fight for your life. It's far easier to pretend like you don't care or there is nothing you can do rather than admitting your own attitude and your actions can make a difference.
And I am telling thats irrelevant to whether this particular practice is right or wrong. Because this particular practices ISN'T PART OF THE DATING WORLD.
What's more, its not an excuse to say "well other people do bad stuff in other ways". Nor is it a justification.
This is where you and I disagree. there is not difference. If someone is out trolling to hook up and gets involved into this game, so what? If you dont want to be part of it, dont troll for a date. If you dont want your son or daughter to be invloved, tell them not to date. But if someone is out there trolling for a date, oh well.
Theres a differnece between thinking people should be prohibited from doing something by law and thinking its wrong and cruel for them to do it.
Whats mind blowing to me is that you acknowledge that it is cruel. That it is a complete dickmove, and then lie to yourself and say "but I don't have na opinion on whether it is right or wrong".
Just because something is cruel doesnt mean 1) we can do anything about and 2) I have to have an opinion about it. I dont see in this instance of this practice that it isnt good or bad, its just life.
But the thing is: are the girls having fun? If they are, then what's the problem?
It's a hilarious concept that i would hope anyone who has a soul finds to be reprehensible.
Edit-
Wait, there's a video???
I dont have an opinion on it because I would never do it and I am not going to change those that would. I know it will still be done even if I could stop one or two or three from doing it...
Like I said, I know people who have done it, I am still friends with those who did it. I dont know what else to say. I understand people are bad to others and I dont concern myself with it. I understand both sides of this but I choose not to stand on either side. Most guys sow their oats (women too). If some choose to make a game of it, so be it.
@sisorus, I too dont believe just because you buy a woman a dinner and take her to a show or activity it entitles the man to any services from the woman. So yes I did misunderstand what you were trying to get across. As for talking about western culture, there is aranged marriages in western culture, its not talked about alot but it is.
Hilarious...Reprehensible... does not compute.
If its reprehensible, how is it hilarious?
The answer is... no. No, they are not having fun when they eventually find out what it is (and they *will* eventually find out, they aren't stupid).
Double posts merged. -Viricide
depends on the hair color...:rolleyes:
1. Most trolling in a concentrated thread.
2. Most white knights in a concentrated thread.
3. Most back and forth from casual discourse to vehement flaming, etc.
4. Off topic footnotes.
5. The longest running thread with the least amount of discussion on the actual topic.
Prostitution is just pornography without a camera. Just sayin'.
Also, just because something is morally questionable does not mean i can't find the concept hilarious. I'm a bad person, but i'm honest about it.
Actually, this thread already won 1, 3, 4, and 5.
And the standard white weenie thread wins 2.
:LEGACY:
XLEDed DredgeX
BTraitor's GateB
:EDH:
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
WRTrias, The Betrayer (Gisela)RW
BRWKaalia, of the VastWRB
Thanks to SushiOtter of Hakai Studios for the awesome banner, and Argetlam of Hakai Studios for the equally awesome avvie!
Generation 2556677: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.
You would NEVER do "dogfighting", yet you again you dodge commenting on exactly how bad it is, by claiming to not have an opinion. At least you added a "people are bad to others" that we can infer to mean people who "dogfight".
I've not asked you to give up friends. I've not asked you to change their behaviors. I've not asked you to call your friends out.
I've only asked you to give your honest opinion, and it feels like I'm pulling teeth with pliers to get it. Its becoming clearer from your responses that you don't want to share that opinion with us (maybe out of "courtesy" to people you otherwise like and admire, who do participate or have participated unrepentantly in "dogfighting"? ).
If I'm wrong, tell me so, and then explain how you can be so sure you would never do it, how you can know its being "bad to others", yet insist you have "no opinion".
If I'm right, tell me so, and I'll stop pestering you for your opinion.
I seriously dont have an opinion on it. You can keep asking but I dont. It has nothing to do with anyone I know that has done it, I just dont have an opinion about it.
I passed on it when asked when I was in college, I think I dont think I would do it now. Thats not saying some might enjoy it.
I dont understand why its so improtant to you I have an opinion on the practice. I try not to worry myself about things that dont effect me or my family.
I'll go with that.
I believe its impossible to discuss and read people's arguments about "dogfighting" as much as you have here, and not form some form of opinion of "how bad" it is or isn't, but it's 100% clear you're not going to share it.
Since you've repeatedly avoided any engagement on HOW much it might hurt the victims ( we illustrate in graphic detail how painful it can be, but you don't try to minimize how bad it is, you simply don't respond to any comments about how humiliating or mean it is ), that is a concession that you agree.
If I'm wrong, just say that "It's painful for the victims, but not really all that bad."
I simply believe you have an opinion. It was important to me that you actually admit what that opinion is one way or another.
What you've done since the beginning of this thread is criticize those of us who have offered an opinion on the practice. But your criticism came in the form of telling us not to "control" people. Rather than actually engage on the level of the topic, you conceded your inability to contest our assertions of how mean and humiliating the practice is. Not even a whiff of an attempt to engage the topic on CONTENT. Just a lot of posts telling us to stop trying to "control" people's behavior. And absolute avoidance of addressing any discussion that humanized the victims & described how crappy it must feel.
It was the subconscious tactician in me going for the linchpin point, in your whole approach to this discussion, your "I have no opinion" is tactically equivalent to "let's leave my opinion out of it", only it's not credible. If you'd just said the latter, I would probably have dropped I earlier.
But I don't think it's worth pushing any harder.
If it was real life I would have dropped it long ago because you've made it clear you don't want to examine your own opinion on the matter any deeper. At least not for public consumption.
So we agree to disagree on the matter of whether you have formed an opinion on "dogfighting" after 8 pages of reading people's comments and pushing your own argument.
If it was a new practice and it was only men doing it to women, I may feel empathy for someone, but its a common practice by both sexes in todays dating world that has been going on for DECADES!
Dating in general has its awkward moments, heartbreak and pain. I just dont see how making it a game makes it any more cruel or painful. Life isnt fair, life in general is cruel.
Every time you step out of the house you have the of someone doing or saying something cruel to you. If something like dogfighting is going to hurt you (male or female) maybe you should stay home.
*when I say you, I am not meaning anyone person, I dont want anyone to think I am attacking them.
Its not good or bad, its life. Tell me you have never seen a butt ugly woman or man walking in the mall and you have not looked and maybe stared a little bit and I will call you a liar. Now some drop dead beautiful woman or man and you didnt look or maybe stare, again I would call you a liar. These people at the opposite ends of the spectrum in beauty understand and know people treat them different. So I have no opinion about something that is really no more cruel then life itself.
that doesn't excuse the practice of "Dogfighting", because "dogfighting" isn't part of a "real date". It's entered under false pretenses. It's as much a "real date", as a girl luring the virgin kid to her house with the promise of sex, then lock him out of the house with only his underwear on, so her friends can shoot video of him and make fun of him.
It is fascinating to watch you concede that dogfighting is "cruel and painful"... But somehow manage AGAIN to avoid explicitly saying it. You just avoid putting "dogfighting" and "cruel/painful" into the same sentence... Then you talk about other things including "life" being "cruel/painful"
and there is the unsupported leap. Deliberate, calculated "Cruelty" is "not good or bad"? If deliberate cruelty isn't "bad", WHAT can a person do that is "bad"?
I understood your "bullying makes you stronger" argument in an earlier post, being bullied sometimes is a part of life. So is being mugged. But bullying somebody is still "bad". Mugging somebody is "bad".
You are taking a huge leap from "bullying happens and is part of life" to "bullying somebody is NOT BAD OR GOOD".
Of course it's "bad". It's awful. Being bullied might make me stronger, but bullies themselves are *******s.
"Dogfighting" is many times crueler than "staring a little bit" at somebody who is particularly ugly or beautiful.
The fact that people "stare a little bit" at somebody does not mean its OK to escalate to luring that somebody to a party to humiliate them for their ugliness in front of a crowd.
Do you really think that people who are "ugly" spend all day thinking "I'm so ugly" and have such miserable lives being stared at at the mall all day, that a "dogfight" becomes just another disappointment in a disappointing life? As people, we're all just trying to get by, workin with what we have, and most of us have felt ugly at one point or another. Being tricked into going to an "ugliest date" party would definitely be an exceptionally memorable and exceptionally humiliating event. Not just regular part of "life as a person with an ugly face".
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Society is impressed by somebody exceptionally smart, and feels sorry or dismissive of a guy who has Down syndrome or is cognitively challenged... That's part of life. Are you saying that it's "no more cruel" to go invite some people with Down syndrome as dates to come to your party, then make fun of them and crown a "king of the stupid"?
Society is dazzled by somebody exceptionally beautiful, and feels sorry or dismissive of a person who has a deformity or is just very ugly ... That's part of life. Are you saying that it's "no more cruel" to go invite a bunch of people with deformity or ugly face as dates to come to your party, then make fun of them and crown a "queen of the dogs"?
Thinking some stranger is not as smart as you are, is very different from setting up an elaborate prank to amuse yourself by humiliating that stranger.
So are you saying this? "She's used to being devalued by society for being ugly. Dcartist himself stared at her the other day at the mall. There's no harm in ruining next weekend for her as well by luring her to a dogfight. Its 'no more cruel than life' has been to her already."
The people who engage in and enjoy the so-called 'dogfights' are at best boys trying to reassure each other they are men. They're truly pathetic, as is anyone who gains pleasure from cruelty to others.
@ Rivaltuna - You are an arrogant young boy. You aren't a bad person, and you don't even really believe you are. I was like you at your age, and you'll realize 'friends' who can enjoy cruelty like that aren't really friends. How could they be? They're all arrogant, insecure and self-serving.
@ Bocephus - You are fooling yourself. If you didn't have an opinion, why do you keep posting defending about why you have no opinion? Yes, life is cruel, so why make it any more cruel for others when common decency is all it takes to make someone's life better?
I don't think either of you has actually experienced the real world. I have a cold rage inside me that I once allowed to make me an arrogant, cruel person, because I couldn't stand the sight of weakness. I was angry because I was constantly screamed at and told how worthless I was as child. I throttled the children who tried picking on me, or turned them on weaker children who would make easier targets than I would. Martial arts helped me channel that anger into contructive things, but without the wisdom to go along with my skill, I became arrogant as soon as things turned around in high school and I became more or less popular.
I also got very good at manipulating people to get what I want, and when I got older I believed, falsely, that because no one could stand up to me or make me stop, that I was justified. It almost caused me to lose the few true friends I had. The thing that broke me of this was learning of how my behavior hurt my first girlfriend, who I had become close friends with after breaking up. I had never actually stopped to consider how I was making people feel, and I hadn't cared to before. I was a child who only cared about getting his way.
Then, a good friend at the firehouse killed himself. No one had any idea he was even depressed. A few months later, I had to listen to a friend die while trapped in the car he wrapped around a tree, because in his youthful arrogance, he didn't think going twice the speed limit on a two lane road would have repercussions. I was in a wheelchair for months. As an EMT I've seen the cruelty of foolish mistakes as it has crippled or killed teenagers who thought they were sober enough to drive. The pain of people who had done nothing but been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The reason I mention any of this is to show you that I know that life is cruel, and nature doesn't give a damn about anyone. That's exactly why we have to care. There is no reason to be cruel to another person for entertainment. Life is cruel enough, especially for people who, through no fault of their own, are stuck dealing with cruel people their whole lives. I've never been more ashamed of myself than when I was cruel to people who didn't deserve it. If you think someone's ugly, that's fine. You don't have to be attracted to, or even like, everyone. But at the very least, you should avoid acting on cruel impulses. Acting on your impulses is what children and animals do.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
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I'm not eager to call this an appeal to tradition, because that would make "dogfighting" a tradition. But that's what the fallacy is here. Whether it has or hasn't been done for a period of time, what difference does that make?
I notice that more often than not, "life isn't fair" is a phrase used an excuse by people who desire to keep it as such. Case in point.
Does this apply to emotional injury only? How about physical injury?
Remind me again: why are you devoted to defend this behavior?
Oh that's why - no good or bad?
OK let's get to the problem again.
You say there's no good or bad, though paradoxically you subscribe to the golden rule in your personal life.
Then at the same time, you are devoted to proving to us that this behavior is not bad... because it would be bad if we acted as if this behavior is bad.... since there is no bad... but that would be bad.
Try again.
1) We have unconscious reactions based on our biology.
2) We make conscious choices.
3) We make deliberations.
As Tiax pointed out earlier, we're talking about category 3 here, not category 1.
@Jay13x, you dont know me, so I dont know hwo you could say you dont think I have experienced real life. I dont think you have if you feel this practice is any more cruel then thing that happen every day to people. I think those that are up in arms about this have lead sheltered lives and dont understand what real life is.
This statement here makes me think you have no idea about life and how cruel it is. Have you turned on a TV in, in oooh say the past 10 years? Reality TV is all about entertaining the MASSES with cruelty to humans. Dogfighting is no different and on a smaller scale.
I hope anyone claiming dogfighting is cruel doesnt watch beauty pagents or reality TV, because you all would be in for a rude awakening. Or are just plain hypocrites.
Just pointing out, we are animals. No matter how much some want to feel we have evolved past animalistic urges, we are still animals at heart.
What some of us are trying to figure out is why you're fighting so hard to keep it that way.
I don't watch boxing or MMA. I don't watch Saw or Quentin Tarantino films. I don't play Grand Theft Auto. I don't take pleasure in the pain of another human being, or even at the idea of needlessly harming a fictional human being.
I agree with you, such people have a blind spot. But this is a topic for another time.
...and I am wondering why some many are trying to change our nature? Cant be something we are not. Its just putting on false pretenses.
Ever hear the story of the frog and the scorpion... yeah we (humans) are the scorpion thru and thru.
Could it be that you've gone this far into the thread and don't actually know what a dogfight is? Dogfighting is the following:
A group of guys get together and agree to have a party. Each guy throws a certain amount of money in the pot. They then go out and intentionally, and under their full faculties invite the ugliest girl they can find.
At the party, towards the end they use some predetermined method (such as voting) to determine who the ugliest girl at the party is and award the person who invited the ugly girl the pot.
Now, explain to me how thats at all related to your analogy?
If murder, as a practice, was really hurtful to anyone don't you think the practice would have gone away over time?
Wait, that question makes no sense. Just like it makes no sense in your post either.
I know what dogfighting is, I posted a link to a 90s movie about it going on during WWII. I have said multiple times I saw it going on in college. I know people who played, both male and female. (the game is not exclusive to the male gender)
Again, I dont find it any worse then being set up on a blind date. You take your chances in the dating world. Its why dating services are so popular, people trying to take the 'chance' out of dating.
dogfighting not illegal,if it was dating would have to be outlawed. Murder on the other hand...:rolleyes: lets compare apples to apples please. One practice people want stopped (for the most part), the other people are pitching in to play.
Right, I know. Which is why your analogy makes no sense. It's nothing like dating, or using a dating service.
Bad dates happen. Bad dates are not cruelty. Doggfighting is cruelty. There's really no other word that describes it. It is intentionally deriving enjoyment out of the misery and suffering of others. Not only that, but out of misery and suffering that you intentionally inflicted!
The difference being of course, that being set up on a blind date both people go in expecting at least something they will enjoy, and neither person is looking to be cruel to the other.
Thats a pretty freaking huge difference.
You know, there are people looking to participate in murder too. And there are people wanting dogfighting to be stopped (or are you really that incapable of understanding anything in this thread?).
The legality of murder is irrelevant to the analogy.
I am just going to assume you had a pretty tame dating life. Never showed up to a date and got the door slammed in your face because of your looks or what you were wearing, never got left in the middle of a date because they found someone more appealing. I am telling you the dating world is cruel, plain and simple.
I dont know how to respond to this, if you wish to waste your time trying to stop a practice thats been going on for ages, that is not illegal.. have at it. Its like trying to stop the sales of strawberry icecream because you dont like strawberries. Its just mind blowing to me how some feel so strongly about this subject.
And I am telling thats irrelevant to whether this particular practice is right or wrong. Because this particular practices ISN'T PART OF THE DATING WORLD.
What's more, its not an excuse to say "well other people do bad stuff in other ways". Nor is it a justification.
Theres a differnece between thinking people should be prohibited from doing something by law and thinking its wrong and cruel for them to do it.
Whats mind blowing to me is that you acknowledge that it is cruel. That it is a complete dickmove, and then lie to yourself and say "but I don't have na opinion on whether it is right or wrong".
I'm not going to get in a contest with you about who's 'experienced' more life.
Yes, life is cruel, but apathy isn't the answer. There are a lot of things we can't do anything about, which you mention. But we can help contribute to a culture of compassion, rather than one of of apathetic surrender. "Oh well" doesn't cut it. I can't do anything about mothers in child pageants without going outside the law and ruining my own life, but I can treat people with respect. I can tell someone something isn't funny, or their attitude isn't appropriate, and at least hope they are self-aware enough to do some introspection and decide if I was right. I'm going to fail a lot, but I will still make other people's lives better, even if only by a miniscule amount.
'Dog Fighting' is a deliberately cruel practice that doesn't have to happen. There is no reason to lead a person on just as part of a mean-spirited competition. The only people that engage in it or approve of it are other small people. I can't stop little men from doing something like this, but I also don't have to accept it as inevitable.
Yes, I know we are animals. But we don't have to live like animals. That was my point - we don't have to act on instinct. It's easy to say this kind of thing when you live in a country like the United States, and when you never have to truly experience dog-eat-dog. When you've never actually had to fight for your life. It's far easier to pretend like you don't care or there is nothing you can do rather than admitting your own attitude and your actions can make a difference.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This is where you and I disagree. there is not difference. If someone is out trolling to hook up and gets involved into this game, so what? If you dont want to be part of it, dont troll for a date. If you dont want your son or daughter to be invloved, tell them not to date. But if someone is out there trolling for a date, oh well.
Just because something is cruel doesnt mean 1) we can do anything about and 2) I have to have an opinion about it. I dont see in this instance of this practice that it isnt good or bad, its just life.
I agree wholeheartedly. Hell, that was my topic and I didn't even read most of it towards the end.