If the martial arts training children are receiving boils down to pushing the kids together and yelling "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" then it should be just as illegal as what is happening here.
Personally, I think this is child abuse. I also happen to think having two children fight each other by any means at the age of 3 is child abuse, but that's just me, and I understand the positions of people that disagree with me.
thing is i don't know any karate class that teaches this. even in boxing it is more about fundimentals. also there is massive use of safety equipment.
head guards, gloves, knees, and feet pads are used.
plus there are guidlines put in place and people to monitor the activities so that people do not get hurt.
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You dont know that. Where you there? Did the kids tell you they were scared?
i do know that. Because unlike you I read the articles and try to know what Im talking about before I post an opinion.
"It was a difficult video to watch," Dover Police Capt. Tim Stump told FoxNews.com. "One of the kids involved ran over to one of the adults for protection, but she turned him around back into the fight."
The video was taken in March, Stump said. Two of the suspects could be seen encouraging the fight, while the other filmed it with her cellphone camera, he said.
Is it because the women were using the children without the parents knowledge? This I can get behind, but I still dont think it would be child abuse, more an abuse of power. Its not like a 20 year old adult was beating a 3 year old. That I would consider child abuse.
For starters a 3 year old that was say taking dance classes or karate classes, they would begin not with a sparring match but would be brought up through a scaffolding process to prepare, understand what is to come, and then be encouraged over time to participate in the fight. In this instance the women threw the young children into a fight, no preparation, nor permission from parents or from the children. There are times when, even after training and the like, a child will just say no to a parent and refuse and throw a tantrum and give up.
There's no preparation, there's no "having the child try out hitting a punching bag and doing some kicks," it's just them thrown into some awkward situation they have little reference for by people they trusted in which they're told to hurt another child.
"Here's the safety gear, be safe, have fun, and listen to the referee."
Is quite different from:
"Police said in the video one child is heard yelling, "He’s pinching me!" A day care worker allegedly responded, "No pinching, only punching."
"One of the kids involved ran over to one of the adults for protection, but she turned him around back into the fight"
If you had a young child in a dojo or gym, are you honestly going to sit there the first day having the child hit another child without gear, no preparation work, and asking them to indiscriminately hit another person? That's inherently what's wrong with the situation, it's beastial without any proper context for fighting nor any limitations.
Equally, the same with someone "checking their opponents' oil," which I view as something inherently disgusting to the point of sexual harassment, or having a young person fluctuate their weight in wrestling as a means to "win."
There's a time to fight, and a time not to fight. Fighting is a last resort, with the objective to take down the opponent as quickly as possible without harm to either and getting away from the situation. Which in a good situation for martial arts is what they're supposed to espouse and often do.
You're trying for moral equivalence here, in which the child is taken to a karate tournament without any training I would consider as child abuse. The punching without any rules of engagement or equipment again adds another layer of abuse and potential physical harm sharply increases.
Even then, for martial arts if we are to consider some persons do not like fighting and instead just do performances for points as a form of challenge.
And frankly speaking, unprepared fighters thrown into something they're unprepared for is assault and endangering the welfare of any person.
I can more than guarantee you if a child runs out of a ring, cries, and asks not to be beat up the child is going to be taken home because the parent is going to be around other parents and look like either an ass or get some sort of "awe shucks he/she's scared" and move onto the next match. They might just take the child out, or stop taking them to competition until the child wants to go. There's also an economic point to which the parents pay and have an investment into it, and many parents after a while if the child isn't into it will pull them out of the activity.
For starters a 3 year old that was say taking dance classes or karate classes, they would begin not with a sparring match but would be brought up through a scaffolding process to prepare, understand what is to come, and then be encouraged over time to participate in the fight. In this instance the women threw the young children into a fight, no preparation, nor permission from parents or from the children. There are times when, even after training and the like, a child will just say no to a parent and refuse and throw a tantrum and give up.
There's no preparation, there's no "having the child try out hitting a punching bag and doing some kicks," it's just them thrown into some awkward situation they have little reference for by people they trusted in which they're told to hurt another child.
"Here's the safety gear, be safe, have fun, and listen to the referee."
Is quite different from:
"Police said in the video one child is heard yelling, "He’s pinching me!" A day care worker allegedly responded, "No pinching, only punching."
"One of the kids involved ran over to one of the adults for protection, but she turned him around back into the fight"
If you had a young child in a dojo or gym, are you honestly going to sit there the first day having the child hit another child without gear, no preparation work, and asking them to indiscriminately hit another person? That's inherently what's wrong with the situation, it's beastial without any proper context for fighting nor any limitations.
Equally, the same with someone "checking their opponents' oil," which I view as something inherently disgusting to the point of sexual harassment, or having a young person fluctuate their weight in wrestling as a means to "win."
There's a time to fight, and a time not to fight. Fighting is a last resort, with the objective to take down the opponent as quickly as possible without harm to either and getting away from the situation. Which in a good situation for martial arts is what they're supposed to espouse and often do.
You're trying for moral equivalence here, in which the child is taken to a karate tournament without any training I would consider as child abuse. The punching without any rules of engagement or equipment again adds another layer of abuse and potential physical harm sharply increases.
Even then, for martial arts if we are to consider some persons do not like fighting and instead just do performances for points as a form of challenge.
And frankly speaking, unprepared fighters thrown into something they're unprepared for is assault and endangering the welfare of any person.
I can more than guarantee you if a child runs out of a ring, cries, and asks not to be beat up the child is going to be taken home because the parent is going to be around other parents and look like either an ass or get some sort of "awe shucks he/she's scared" and move onto the next match. They might just take the child out, or stop taking them to competition until the child wants to go. There's also an economic point to which the parents pay and have an investment into it, and many parents after a while if the child isn't into it will pull them out of the activity.
It has been a while since I have been in a Dojo with one of my kids, but the first day consisted of the same for the 3 I put into martial arts. They got there, where shown the proper way to put on their ki, and then faced off against kids roughly there same size to see what they knew, how they threw punches and such. This is first day and 3 different Dojos in 2 different states. When I put my son in boxing, the first day they threw gloves and head gear on him and threw him in the ring with a kid the same age to see form and such. Again it was a long time ago, over a decade so things could have changed.
As for the monetary angle, that comes with consent. I have already admitted the over stepped their authority in the instance.
i do know that. Because unlike you I read the articles and try to know what Im talking about before I post an opinion.
I did read the article, and I also work with children. Running to an adult is a natural instinct in unsure instances. It takes time and work to break that natural feeling. Just because the child ran to the adult, does not mean the child was scared.
Running to an adult is a natural instinct in unsure instances. It takes time and work to break that natural feeling. Just because the child ran to the adult, does not mean the child was scared.
actually it means that the child is not comfortable with the situation and does not want to be involved. It is then up to the parent to continue to call it quits.
in this case they pushed the kid back into the fight.
I don't know any good dojo or even boxing gym that throws new people in with other people just to fight. they are usually trained in the basics first then they might skirmish against an instructor.
I know my karate instructor didn't do that. it was several weeks before they actually did any of that stuff.
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I took karate years ago. We had all age groups and all skill levels. New students would train for several weeks before they were permitted to spar. Even then, it was light contact. I never saw anyone get hurt. If any dojos like the one Bocephus describes exist, I won't permit any of my kids to join them. That's barbaric.
It has been a while since I have been in a Dojo with one of my kids, but the first day consisted of the same for the 3 I put into martial arts. They got there, where shown the proper way to put on their ki, and then faced off against kids roughly there same size to see what they knew, how they threw punches and such. This is first day and 3 different Dojos in 2 different states.
That's really interesting. When I took karate classes, my experience was much different... we didn't spar at all for a long time.
Spent the first couple months learning the purpose of the arts, doing meditations, stretches, learning katas (?), mirroring simple moves performed by the sensei, etc.
Then we moved on to pairing off, where we practiced blocking and such.. don't think we even sparred at all until yellow belt.
Even then, always with: 1) clear rules, 2) safety precautions/equipment, 3) no way in hell anyone would be forced to spar if they didn't feel comfortable with it. No way.
Not denying your experience, but any dojo that would be like, "here kid, put on this gi, let's start fighting" is shady to the max.
I did read the article, and I also work with children.
Oh no.
Running to an adult is a natural instinct in unsure instances. It takes time and work to break that natural feeling. Just because the child ran to the adult, does not mean the child was scared.
They were THREE YEAR OLDS for pete's sake! No one should be forced to fight regardless of age, but three year olds? Come on!!!
Everyone's post are well thought out.... All except bocephus who has the most messed up logic regarding on illegal kiddie fight club. At first, I agree on the consent part and partaking kids to have a duel until you include the part where you just blatantly told everyone that it's normal for kids to fight until one stands.... You sound as if you promote the daycare's possible legal defense on why they allow such things happen on the institution.
Consent or not the kids will definitely have an impact from this incident which give out negative outlook of life... Like becoming a bully or passive aggressive individual.
It has been a while since I have been in a Dojo with one of my kids, but the first day consisted of the same for the 3 I put into martial arts. They got there, where shown the proper way to put on their ki, and then faced off against kids roughly there same size to see what they knew, how they threw punches and such. This is first day and 3 different Dojos in 2 different states. When I put my son in boxing, the first day they threw gloves and head gear on him and threw him in the ring with a kid the same age to see form and such. Again it was a long time ago, over a decade so things could have changed.
I find that so hard to believe I'm going to go ahead and call bull. No self-respecting "Dojo" on your 1st day is going to say, "Well little Johnny, suit up and let's get to fighting! We gotta see your form after all." Especially a three year old.
This video and story is sickening on so many levels it isn't funny. And the fact somebody like bocephus just handwaves it away with some rubbish about Dojos and karate makes me sick and glad I never sent my kids to a daycare.
I love UFC and football and have participated in both. If my kid grows up and wants to participate in those sports great, but NOT AT 4 YEARS OLD AT THE DAYCARE OR PRESCHOOL!
Everyone's post are well thought out.... All except bocephus who has the most messed up logic regarding on illegal kiddie fight club. At first, I agree on the consent part and partaking kids to have a duel until you include the part where you just blatantly told everyone that it's normal for kids to fight until one stands.... You sound as if you promote the daycare's possible legal defense on why they allow such things happen on the institution.
Consent or not the kids will definitely have an impact from this incident which give out negative outlook of life... Like becoming a bully or passive aggressive individual.
You mean like people who are saying that this is nowhere near as bad as it was when they were kids?
Quote from Bocephus »
I did read the article, and I also work with children.
yes, you've said that before. In the "This is my handgun and this is your laptop, watch me unload a clip into it." thread, and the Trayvon Martin thread.
It saddens me to read it.
Being introduced to "fight or flight" terror at the age of 3 by being in violence may be what goes on in the jungle and in your house growing up, but "FERAL kids" are not exactly the ideal that most parents are shooting for in their child rearing.
It's nasty and its trash child rearing. Most people aspire for something better for their kids than that.
As for this crap making them "tougher", this kind of animalistic abuse doesn't make a person "tough". Just makes them more aggressive and likely to lose control inappropriately (and unwanted at social gatherings when you grow up). The fact that you went through this sort of violence as a child, are still able to hold a job & haven't gone postal doesn't mean it, and rationalize it alll as a good thing, does NOT mean it was a good thing. It just means you survived, and cope decently. Like an angry, functinoal alcoholic.
People survive and cope with abuse. It doesn't "improve" their lives.
I'll pick the guy with disciplined, self control, and training over the loose cannon "hit a lot as a kid", fighter, in a truly dangerous or hostile situation, any day of the week.
Running to an adult is a natural instinct in unsure instances. It takes time and work to break that natural feeling. Just because the child ran to the adult, does not mean the child was scared.
Yeah, I'm sure those daycare workers' attorney's will go with that defense. Really plausible
I honestly can't believe bocephus is real and isn't just trolling us hard in this thread.
Believe as you wish. So many people have assumed so many things about this video and the situation. Is this an on going thing? what lead up to it? People are jumping to conclusions over a story of second hand information and over reacting, like normal.
I find that so hard to believe I'm going to go ahead and call bull. No self-respecting "Dojo" on your 1st day is going to say, "Well little Johnny, suit up and let's get to fighting! We gotta see your form after all." Especially a three year old.
This video and story is sickening on so many levels it isn't funny. And the fact somebody like bocephus just handwaves it away with some rubbish about Dojos and karate makes me sick and glad I never sent my kids to a daycare.
I love UFC and football and have participated in both. If my kid grows up and wants to participate in those sports great, but NOT AT 4 YEARS OLD AT THE DAYCARE OR PRESCHOOL!
My children were not 3 at the time. The youngest was 4. Believe as you wish, I saw it with my own eyes and was told by other parents it was normal and the guy got great results. My daughter won back to back to back titles for her age bracket, I can not complain with the results.
By the way, you could probably walk up to any 3 year aold and call them a poo-poo head and they are going to run to an adult. With out knowing more about the situation no one in this thread can say for certain that the kid was scared, unless they were there.
Lets see how the court case plays out and if they get any time. I have already said they will lose their child care credentials and possibly a fine. I do not think they will get any time for this.
As a martial arts instructor of 4 year olds, I can say with confidence, they should have worked better form.
But really, this is a pretty horrid situation. Young kids need confidence and support, not to be taught that violence will lead to rewards.
Violence only leads to rewards LATER in life. As a child you will only get in trouble.
EDIT:
So upon reading the whole thread. I'll highlight somethings for young youth martial arts. I run a dojo and I have a class for 4-6 year olds. We spar the 4-5 year olds once per week on a chose sparring day. Their first day could be gearing up and sparring, but everyday is starting with contactless drills (movement), into light touch games that emphasize defense, into free sparring. But for all youth student (4-13) I use wording that emphasizes that sparring is a game (I use sport for adults) that trains your body not to recoil from someone trying to strike you.
I'd say 98%+ of 4 yearolds love sparring if you pitch it right. Full body tag is essentially the game.
yea but you also monitor them to ensure that nothing goes wrong. if someone really doesn't want to do it you don't force them into it. you let them sit and see the other kids doing it that they are having fun and not getting hurt. or you or one of your instructors might step in so that they have someone they are familar with.
also you have protective gear that they wear to ensure that they do not get injured correct?
that is the difference that many people keep trying to make.
But really, this is a pretty horrid situation.
yep and sad too.
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thing is i don't know any karate class that teaches this. even in boxing it is more about fundimentals. also there is massive use of safety equipment.
head guards, gloves, knees, and feet pads are used.
plus there are guidlines put in place and people to monitor the activities so that people do not get hurt.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
For starters a 3 year old that was say taking dance classes or karate classes, they would begin not with a sparring match but would be brought up through a scaffolding process to prepare, understand what is to come, and then be encouraged over time to participate in the fight. In this instance the women threw the young children into a fight, no preparation, nor permission from parents or from the children. There are times when, even after training and the like, a child will just say no to a parent and refuse and throw a tantrum and give up.
There's no preparation, there's no "having the child try out hitting a punching bag and doing some kicks," it's just them thrown into some awkward situation they have little reference for by people they trusted in which they're told to hurt another child.
"Here's the safety gear, be safe, have fun, and listen to the referee."
Is quite different from:
"Police said in the video one child is heard yelling, "He’s pinching me!" A day care worker allegedly responded, "No pinching, only punching."
"One of the kids involved ran over to one of the adults for protection, but she turned him around back into the fight"
If you had a young child in a dojo or gym, are you honestly going to sit there the first day having the child hit another child without gear, no preparation work, and asking them to indiscriminately hit another person? That's inherently what's wrong with the situation, it's beastial without any proper context for fighting nor any limitations.
Equally, the same with someone "checking their opponents' oil," which I view as something inherently disgusting to the point of sexual harassment, or having a young person fluctuate their weight in wrestling as a means to "win."
There's a time to fight, and a time not to fight. Fighting is a last resort, with the objective to take down the opponent as quickly as possible without harm to either and getting away from the situation. Which in a good situation for martial arts is what they're supposed to espouse and often do.
You're trying for moral equivalence here, in which the child is taken to a karate tournament without any training I would consider as child abuse. The punching without any rules of engagement or equipment again adds another layer of abuse and potential physical harm sharply increases.
Even then, for martial arts if we are to consider some persons do not like fighting and instead just do performances for points as a form of challenge.
And frankly speaking, unprepared fighters thrown into something they're unprepared for is assault and endangering the welfare of any person.
I can more than guarantee you if a child runs out of a ring, cries, and asks not to be beat up the child is going to be taken home because the parent is going to be around other parents and look like either an ass or get some sort of "awe shucks he/she's scared" and move onto the next match. They might just take the child out, or stop taking them to competition until the child wants to go. There's also an economic point to which the parents pay and have an investment into it, and many parents after a while if the child isn't into it will pull them out of the activity.
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It has been a while since I have been in a Dojo with one of my kids, but the first day consisted of the same for the 3 I put into martial arts. They got there, where shown the proper way to put on their ki, and then faced off against kids roughly there same size to see what they knew, how they threw punches and such. This is first day and 3 different Dojos in 2 different states. When I put my son in boxing, the first day they threw gloves and head gear on him and threw him in the ring with a kid the same age to see form and such. Again it was a long time ago, over a decade so things could have changed.
As for the monetary angle, that comes with consent. I have already admitted the over stepped their authority in the instance.
I did read the article, and I also work with children. Running to an adult is a natural instinct in unsure instances. It takes time and work to break that natural feeling. Just because the child ran to the adult, does not mean the child was scared.
actually it means that the child is not comfortable with the situation and does not want to be involved. It is then up to the parent to continue to call it quits.
in this case they pushed the kid back into the fight.
I don't know any good dojo or even boxing gym that throws new people in with other people just to fight. they are usually trained in the basics first then they might skirmish against an instructor.
I know my karate instructor didn't do that. it was several weeks before they actually did any of that stuff.
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That's really interesting. When I took karate classes, my experience was much different... we didn't spar at all for a long time.
Spent the first couple months learning the purpose of the arts, doing meditations, stretches, learning katas (?), mirroring simple moves performed by the sensei, etc.
Then we moved on to pairing off, where we practiced blocking and such.. don't think we even sparred at all until yellow belt.
Even then, always with: 1) clear rules, 2) safety precautions/equipment, 3) no way in hell anyone would be forced to spar if they didn't feel comfortable with it. No way.
Not denying your experience, but any dojo that would be like, "here kid, put on this gi, let's start fighting" is shady to the max.
Oh no.
They were THREE YEAR OLDS for pete's sake! No one should be forced to fight regardless of age, but three year olds? Come on!!!
mine was a bit different cause of the style i took, but it was about the same here.
work on basic moves, work on blocks etc...
if you didn't want to spar you didn't have to and there were those that didn't.
others did. some didn't want to try breaking and others did.
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Everyone's post are well thought out.... All except bocephus who has the most messed up logic regarding on illegal kiddie fight club. At first, I agree on the consent part and partaking kids to have a duel until you include the part where you just blatantly told everyone that it's normal for kids to fight until one stands.... You sound as if you promote the daycare's possible legal defense on why they allow such things happen on the institution.
Consent or not the kids will definitely have an impact from this incident which give out negative outlook of life... Like becoming a bully or passive aggressive individual.
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I find that so hard to believe I'm going to go ahead and call bull. No self-respecting "Dojo" on your 1st day is going to say, "Well little Johnny, suit up and let's get to fighting! We gotta see your form after all." Especially a three year old.
This video and story is sickening on so many levels it isn't funny. And the fact somebody like bocephus just handwaves it away with some rubbish about Dojos and karate makes me sick and glad I never sent my kids to a daycare.
I love UFC and football and have participated in both. If my kid grows up and wants to participate in those sports great, but NOT AT 4 YEARS OLD AT THE DAYCARE OR PRESCHOOL!
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yes, you've said that before. In the "This is my handgun and this is your laptop, watch me unload a clip into it." thread, and the Trayvon Martin thread.
It saddens me to read it.
Being introduced to "fight or flight" terror at the age of 3 by being in violence may be what goes on in the jungle and in your house growing up, but "FERAL kids" are not exactly the ideal that most parents are shooting for in their child rearing.
It's nasty and its trash child rearing. Most people aspire for something better for their kids than that.
As for this crap making them "tougher", this kind of animalistic abuse doesn't make a person "tough". Just makes them more aggressive and likely to lose control inappropriately (and unwanted at social gatherings when you grow up). The fact that you went through this sort of violence as a child, are still able to hold a job & haven't gone postal doesn't mean it, and rationalize it alll as a good thing, does NOT mean it was a good thing. It just means you survived, and cope decently. Like an angry, functinoal alcoholic.
People survive and cope with abuse. It doesn't "improve" their lives.
I'll pick the guy with disciplined, self control, and training over the loose cannon "hit a lot as a kid", fighter, in a truly dangerous or hostile situation, any day of the week.
Yeah, I'm sure those daycare workers' attorney's will go with that defense. Really plausible
GWBKarador, Necrotic Ooze SubthemeBWG
Believe as you wish. So many people have assumed so many things about this video and the situation. Is this an on going thing? what lead up to it? People are jumping to conclusions over a story of second hand information and over reacting, like normal.
My children were not 3 at the time. The youngest was 4. Believe as you wish, I saw it with my own eyes and was told by other parents it was normal and the guy got great results. My daughter won back to back to back titles for her age bracket, I can not complain with the results.
By the way, you could probably walk up to any 3 year aold and call them a poo-poo head and they are going to run to an adult. With out knowing more about the situation no one in this thread can say for certain that the kid was scared, unless they were there.
Lets see how the court case plays out and if they get any time. I have already said they will lose their child care credentials and possibly a fine. I do not think they will get any time for this.
But really, this is a pretty horrid situation. Young kids need confidence and support, not to be taught that violence will lead to rewards.
Violence only leads to rewards LATER in life. As a child you will only get in trouble.
EDIT:
So upon reading the whole thread. I'll highlight somethings for young youth martial arts. I run a dojo and I have a class for 4-6 year olds. We spar the 4-5 year olds once per week on a chose sparring day. Their first day could be gearing up and sparring, but everyday is starting with contactless drills (movement), into light touch games that emphasize defense, into free sparring. But for all youth student (4-13) I use wording that emphasizes that sparring is a game (I use sport for adults) that trains your body not to recoil from someone trying to strike you.
I'd say 98%+ of 4 yearolds love sparring if you pitch it right. Full body tag is essentially the game.
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yea but you also monitor them to ensure that nothing goes wrong. if someone really doesn't want to do it you don't force them into it. you let them sit and see the other kids doing it that they are having fun and not getting hurt. or you or one of your instructors might step in so that they have someone they are familar with.
also you have protective gear that they wear to ensure that they do not get injured correct?
that is the difference that many people keep trying to make.
yep and sad too.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum