It's child abuse, and they got hit in the right way. I really don't buy the "toughen them up" argument, because quite frankly you could just wait a few years and enroll them into some martial arts lessons or something. I've never been particularly opposed to such things, but 3 is a tad young and 4 is just whenever they can distinguish between reality and fantasy and when they get more autonomous. Six to seven, depending on the child, is when they have some life experience and can begin to understand some long term planning for a few years ahead in their life. Especially as long as the parent sets limits, such as if you "get hurt to X extent, you're not going to play anymore while under my roof."
There's a difference between say a child that actually wants to do martial arts, and a child being forced into it. There's some children that abhor fighting rather early, others revel in it. It comes down to the individual to an extent and how they're raised.
not to a 3 year old it isn't. they have no concept of it. they don't understand heck they can barely talk.
4 seems to be really the magical age in child development, frankly I sort of counted down the years till mine got to that stage to get beyond the toddler stage.
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It's child abuse, and they got hit in the right way.
that is it exactly. This is child abuse pure and simple. It has nothing to do with consent from a parent. Parents don't enroll their kids in day care so that they can get into punching matches with other kids.
that seems to be what bocephus can't understand. This wasn't a sporting event or a contact sport it was a day care.
parents drop their kids off to play and have fun not get in fist fights.
I've never been particularly opposed to such things
Neither was I. although i started karate a bit later in life than 3 or 4 but it was my decision.
4 seems to be really the magical age in child development, frankly I sort of counted down the years till mine got to that stage to get beyond the toddler stage.
Depends on how many kids there are. it seems the more kids the quicker the younger ones learn and the faster they learn. my 2 year old speaks pretty well the others took a bit longer.
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Depends on how many kids there are. it seems the more kids the quicker the younger ones learn and the faster they learn. my 2 year old speaks pretty well the others took a bit longer.
That too and the parents' speaking ability to the child, but the more complex concepts though are what I found to be lacking to an extent with the metacognitive abilities maturing and social scaffolding process.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
It's child abuse, and they got hit in the right way. I really don't buy the "toughen them up" argument, because quite frankly you could just wait a few years and enroll them into some martial arts lessons or something. I've never been particularly opposed to such things, but 3 is a tad young and 4 is just whenever they can distinguish between reality and fantasy and when they get more autonomous. Six to seven, depending on the child, is when they have some life experience and can begin to understand some long term planning for a few years ahead in their life. Especially as long as the parent sets limits, such as if you "get hurt to X extent, you're not going to play anymore while under my roof."
There's a difference between say a child that actually wants to do martial arts, and a child being forced into it. There's some children that abhor fighting rather early, others revel in it. It comes down to the individual to an extent and how they're raised.
4 seems to be really the magical age in child development, frankly I sort of counted down the years till mine got to that stage to get beyond the toddler stage.
Interesting. Would you consider parents that put children into a contact sport at age 3 or 4 up for child abuse? What about a parent that signs up a kids for swimming classes when the kid doesnt want to be in the water or is scared of deep water? Forces gymnastics on their child?
I dont see it as child abuse. I see it as an uptight society that has gotten to uppity about certain things. To each their own tho.
Would you consider parents that put children into a contact sport at age 3 or 4 up for child abuse? What about a parent that signs up a kids for swimming classes when the kid doesnt want to be in the water or is scared of deep water? Forces gymnastics on their child?
what does any of that have to do with day care workers forcing kids to fight each other for their own entertainment? please explain it to me?
how are they even connected on any remote logical scale?
I dont see it as child abuse. I see it as an uptight society that has gotten to uppity about certain things. To each their own tho.
Unfortuantly for you the law does. you see this is the same thing that got michael vick in trouble only with dogs.
he was having dogs fight each other which is illegal.
day care workers having kids fight each other is illegal.
parents signing their kids up for sports is not illegal. see the difference?
i put my then 4 year old in tee ball. he wanted to play and we signed him up.
you keep bringing up concent and it has nothing to do with what happened. these daycare workers forced kids into fights. please go read the article if you do not understand what was going on.
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what does any of that have to do with day care workers forcing kids to fight each other for their own entertainment? please explain it to me?
how are they even connected on any remote logical scale?
Unfortuantly for you the law does. you see this is the same thing that got michael vick in trouble only with dogs.
he was having dogs fight each other which is illegal.
day care workers having kids fight each other is illegal.
parents signing their kids up for sports is not illegal. see the difference?
i put my then 4 year old in tee ball. he wanted to play and we signed him up.
you keep bringing up concent and it has nothing to do with what happened. these daycare workers forced kids into fights. please go read the article if you do not understand what was going on.
Its just another subject we dont agree on, is there any? I assume you are saying now all laws on the books are good and just and should all be enforced to the letter of the law.
Its just another subject we dont agree on, is there any? I assume you are saying now all laws on the books are good and just and should all be enforced to the letter of the law.
please answer the question and stop avoiding it.
How is signing your kids up for sports the same as day care workers having kids fight each other for their entertainment?
How on any logical scale do these even come close?
vick was convicted of dog fighting. In fact dog fighting is illegal.
this is no different than dog fighting only you are putting 3 year olds in. hence why it is illegal and child abuse.
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How is signing your kids up for sports the same as day care workers having kids fight each other for their entertainment?
How on any logical scale do these even come close?
vick was convicted of dog fighting. In fact dog fighting is illegal.
this is no different than dog fighting only you are putting 3 year olds in. hence why it is illegal and child abuse.
Dog fighting is a way of life for some. Has been for centuries. Same can be said for cockfighting and other forms of using animals for entertainment. Its is only illegal now because of some soapbox screamers who have nothing better to do with their time then sticking their nose into others business. I am not saying I condone dog fighting or any other kind of animal entertainment, but I have no business telling others how they should spend their money or time.
As for the children, and the consent issues. If you are going to throw the babysitters in jail because of these action, you have to do the same to the parents who sign there kids up for contact sports such as boxing, martial arts and wrestling. Same difference, the only thing missing is consent.
Interesting. Would you consider parents that put children into a contact sport at age 3 or 4 up for child abuse? What about a parent that signs up a kids for swimming classes when the kid doesnt want to be in the water or is scared of deep water? Forces gymnastics on their child?
I dont see it as child abuse. I see it as an uptight society that has gotten to uppity about certain things. To each their own tho.
Water isn't a contact sport, and water's a basic fear that can condition the child over time to not be scared of it. Large pain in the ass, but various ways to go about it.
Now, for talking about something like gymnastics or dance, while not child abuse but it becomes a waste of money if the child doesn't take to it and shows no aptitude becomes a waste of potential time away from something the child may actually be good at and actually wants to do. Ultimately, can't force a child to always conform they learn whining pretty fast and weaseling is a life long art that grows in complexity through out the years.
Forcing a child to box another child, whereas the child was perfectly fine hitting the bag and cries every time they get hit and runs out of the ring and doesn't want to fight? That's incompetency, it does however become child abuse if the child lacks proper gear.
For a parent, you have to pick your battles. I never personally felt the need to make children do activities they don't get an incentive out of for their own time investment just because the parent "thinks it's cool." Especially whenever it has little utilitarian value.
Also comes into teaching the child negotiation skills and the like to curb the whining and weaseling problem. Especially if the child shows a preference themselves for certain activities. Initially, I agree that "making someone try something" is more than fair, but I feel if the child hated the activity after some time and is compliant and respectful they should be rewarded with something they want to do or to buy as compensation if it was something the parent really wanted the child to do.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
My point is parents sign their children up for just as dangerous stuff as what was being done with the toddler fight club.
They do not do so legally... definitely not at the age of 3.
We have an irreconcilable difference here that will not be resolved. In the Western World in the 21st century, there's no way you are going to convince me that this is necessary... or even acceptable, for that matter.
Aggressive combat style sports are human nature and have been around as long as history has been written, probably before. Trying to fight your nature is a losing battle.
Surely there are many people who have lived long, full lives without ever bloodying a fellow human being.
Water isn't a contact sport, and water's a basic fear that can condition the child over time to not be scared of it. Large pain in the ass, but various ways to go about it.
Now, for talking about something like gymnastics or dance, while not child abuse but it becomes a waste of money if the child doesn't take to it and shows no aptitude becomes a waste of potential time away from something the child may actually be good at and actually wants to do. Ultimately, can't force a child to always conform they learn whining pretty fast and weaseling is a life long art that grows in complexity through out the years.
Forcing a child to box another child, whereas the child was perfectly fine hitting the bag and cries every time they get hit and runs out of the ring and doesn't want to fight? That's incompetency, it does however become child abuse if the child lacks proper gear.
For a parent, you have to pick your battles. I never personally felt the need to make children do activities they don't get an incentive out of for their own time investment just because the parent "thinks it's cool." Especially whenever it has little utilitarian value.
Also comes into teaching the child negotiation skills and the like to curb the whining and weaseling problem. Especially if the child shows a preference themselves for certain activities. Initially, I agree that "making someone try something" is more than fair, but I feel if the child hated the activity after some time and is compliant and respectful they should be rewarded with something they want to do or to buy as compensation if it was something the parent really wanted the child to do.
Thank you for the well thought out response. Usually I agree with you about almost everything but in this case I dont. I dont think the women should go unpunished because they were doing something with the children without consent, but I dont feel its any worse then things parents make their children do.
If we break down the incident, what actually makes it child abuse?
Is it the fact 2 children were fighting? If this is so, every family with multiple children are guilty of child abuse.
Is it the fact the children were made to do something against their will? If this is the case then every parent in the world is guilty of child abuse.
Is it because the women were using the children without the parents knowledge? This I can get behind, but I still dont think it would be child abuse, more an abuse of power. Its not like a 20 year old adult was beating a 3 year old. That I would consider child abuse.
We have an irreconcilable difference here that will not be resolved. In the Western World in the 21st century, there's no way you are going to convince me that this is necessary... or even acceptable, for that matter.
Fair enough, but I would suggest getting out more. Every year I attend the youth state wrestling tournament where children as young as 3 are paired off by weight and put on the mat. Martial arts clubs are training and competing single digit children in their chosen martial art. Its been a decade since my son boxed but at the time he was single digit age and fighting other single digit children. Its part of the American society. Kids watch their favorite action hero and want to do the same thing as they see. Violence is a way of life in America, and it starts at a very young age.
Surely there are many people who have lived long, full lives without ever bloodying a fellow human being.
There are names for them, but I will keep it nice.
I am willing to bet there are people you know who you feel are nice and never bloodied someone that have at one time or another.
If you are going to throw the babysitters in jail because of these action, you have to do the same to the parents who sign there kids up for contact sports such as boxing, martial arts and wrestling. Same difference, the only thing missing is consent.
It seems that you cannot tell the difference between a legalized sport and a what would be considered an underground fighting ring which are illegal.
Surely there are many people who have lived long, full lives without ever bloodying a fellow human being.
or even have to fight someone.
Is it the fact 2 children were fighting? If this is so, every family with multiple children are guilty of child abuse.
Really I don't know too many parents that force their kids to fist fight each other. in fact they usually break it up and if anyone did any hitting would get in major trouble.
Is it the fact the children were made to do something against their will? If this is the case then every parent in the world is guilty of child abuse.
again please show me where parents create fighting rings with 3 year olds and force them to fight each other outside of a sporting activity. that would be illegal as well.
Is it because the women were using the children without the parents knowledge? This I can get behind, but I still dont think it would be child abuse, more an abuse of power. Its not like a 20 year old adult was beating a 3 year old. That I would consider child abuse.
the law and other people disagree with you. this is a clear sign of child abuse. again parents don't stick their kids in daycare to be forced into fist fights with other kids.
It seems that you cannot tell the difference between a legalized sport and a what would be considered an underground fighting ring which are illegal.
or even have to fight someone.
Really I don't know too many parents that force their kids to fist fight each other. in fact they usually break it up and if anyone did any hitting would get in major trouble.
again please show me where parents create fighting rings with 3 year olds and force them to fight each other outside of a sporting activity. that would be illegal as well.
the law and other people disagree with you. this is a clear sign of child abuse. again parents don't stick their kids in daycare to be forced into fist fights with other kids.
The act of fighting is not against the law, it is only when someone feels it was done in an unfair manner it becomes a court problem. Two 3 year olds fighting is not an unfair manner. (If you are going to keep comparing it to dog fighting, The fight club wasnt until death like dog fighting is, which is why it was made illegal)
You have to remember, fighting publicly was the way situations were settled up till the late 80s. Then something happened that everyone decided it was better to let lawyers fight their battles insted of themselves.
I was raised in a neighborhood where if you had a problem with someone else in the neighborhood, THE PARENTS would stand the 2 of you nose to nose and toes to toes and let you duke out the problem. That type of parenting changed in the 80s when the law makers went on a law making rampage.
I was raised in a neighborhood where if you had a problem with someone else in the neighborhood, THE PARENTS would stand the 2 of you nose to nose and toes to toes and let you duke out the problem. That type of parenting changed in the 80s when the law makers went on a law making rampage.
You really don't recognize the difference between
(a) parents explaining to their kids to "punch it out and end it, then shake hands" where boundaries and limits are clearly set, and both kids' parents are clearly just trying to get the kids to respect each other.
Vs
(b) 3 adult daycare workers throwing somebody else's 3 year old (a 3 year old left in their care), into a fight against some other aggressive 3 year old, to fight for their amusement while they cheer on. And whoever is the losing kid has no clue why they're fighting, but he's getting hurt and crying and crapping his pants, while a bunch of trashy adults are cheering the other kid on to humiliate him. And when he runs to an adult because he's had enough, gets thrown back in to get beat up some more? The kid has no idea why he's in A very REAL "fight or flight mode", terrified, no idea where he can escape, no idea whether this will end, no idea whether this is life or death or not. For all he knows he's gonna be killed. It's just a terrifying experience where adults whom his parents sent him to for care, are treating him like a piece of garbage, pushing him away & throwing him into a fight when he comes for comfort and forcing him to fight and laughing and cheering when he gets hurt. Clearly these caseworkers have extreme hostility towards the kids or the parents, and don't even look on these kids as children at all.
What kind of defective parent could not tell the difference between (a) and (b)?
Are you trolling?
Not that I approve of (a), but I understand that rationale. (b) is just horrific and infuriating. Those daycare workers need serious prison time for that.
The act of fighting is not against the law, it is only when someone feels it was done in an unfair manner it becomes a court problem.
please go out and have a fist fight with someone you will be hauled off to jail for disorderly conduct, assault and probably several other charges.
Two 3 year olds fighting is not an unfair manner.
fair or unfair doesn't matter.
fighting publicly was the way situations were settled up till the late 80s.
no it wasn't it was illegal then and is still illegal today.
I was raised in a neighborhood where if you had a problem with someone else in the neighborhood, THE PARENTS would stand the 2 of you nose to nose and toes to toes and let you duke out the problem. That type of parenting changed in the 80s when the law makers went on a law making rampage.
then i feel sorry for you and you have my sympathy. fighting was always a last restort and did nothing to solve the situation in fact it usually made it worse.
it has nothing to do with law makers making laws. they have always been there.
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Other than the OP, I haven't seen outstanding (in a good way) from this thread, though I also think that the title is juvenile but I'm overlooking that.
This matter is messed up. I don't know much about that industry and I don't know everything under the Sun about children (but no one does), but I think there are so many egregious transgressions here.
Those kinder need to be protected from themselves (or the crap within humans), each other, and those heinous bastards of child minders, and those child minders need not only a black mark that prevents them from ever dealing with children but also that brands them for the entirety of the lives. A pitseleh is a sacred thing. A gift from It, he or she is precious and should not be messed with.
(a) parents explaining to their kids to "punch it out and end it, then shake hands" where boundaries and limits are clearly set, and both kids' parents are clearly just trying to get the kids to respect each other.
Vs
(b) 3 adult daycare workers throwing somebody else's 3 year old (a 3 year old left in their care), into a fight against some other aggressive 3 year old, to fight for their amusement while they cheer on. And whoever is the losing kid has no clue why they're fighting, but he's getting hurt and crying and crapping his pants, while a bunch of trashy adults are cheering the other kid on to humiliate him. And when he runs to an adult because he's had enough, gets thrown back in to get beat up some more? The kid has no idea why he's in A very REAL "fight or flight mode", terrified, no idea where he can escape, no idea whether this will end, no idea whether this is life or death or not. For all he knows he's gonna be killed. It's just a terrifying experience where adults whom his parents sent him to for care, are treating him like a piece of garbage, pushing him away & throwing him into a fight when he comes for comfort and forcing him to fight and laughing and cheering when he gets hurt. Clearly these caseworkers have extreme hostility towards the kids or the parents, and don't even look on these kids as children at all.
What kind of defective parent could not tell the difference between (a) and (b)?
Are you trolling?
Not that I approve of (a), but I understand that rationale. (b) is just horrific and infuriating. Those daycare workers need serious prison time for that.
Again it comes down to consent. The daycare workers didnt have parental consent. I doubt they get jail time. They will lose their certificates to be daycare workers and wont be allowed to watch children. Maybe a fine and probation. Wanting these women to go to prison for something as minor as this is why our prison system is as messed up as it is. We cant everyone in jail we dont agree with.
@mystery, I can tell by your posts you are either very young or were raised in an atmosphere different then mine. To just be naive how things were and how people were raised is not an excuse to have the stances you do. We have never agreed on any subject on these boards, I will no longer respond to you. You cant see anything other then the way you see it or was raised to see it.
Again it comes down to consent. The daycare workers didnt have parental consent. I doubt they get jail time. They will lose their certificates to be daycare workers and wont be allowed to watch children. Maybe a fine and probation. Wanting these women to go to prison for something as minor as this is why our prison system is as messed up as it is. We cant everyone in jail we dont agree with.
How can you consider this minor? People who were supposed to be watching over kids are instead forcing them to fight in a way that is most likely going to leave them with years of therapy and/or emotional issues.
It's minor the same way date rape is "minor" -- sure there wasn't any physical violence forcing people to do something, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a violent and reprehensible act.
How can you consider this minor? People who were supposed to be watching over kids are instead forcing them to fight in a way that is most likely going to leave them with years of therapy and/or emotional issues.
It's minor the same way date rape is "minor" -- sure there wasn't any physical violence forcing people to do something, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a violent and reprehensible act.
The fact you compare two 3 year olds fighting to date rape shows me you are making way too much of this. Show me the reports of children coming home with serious injuries. I would agree if it was older kids beating on the 3 year olds or the day care workers smacking them around. But these are 3 year olds for christ sake. how much damage do you really think a 3 year old can do to another 3 year old? This isnt to the death, or even till one is knocked out. Its just two 3 year olds scuffling without the consent of their parents. You can see this any day of the week in any playground in the country. Hell kids fight over who gets to go down the slide first.
You keep ignoring the fact that the "dogfighting" kids had no idea why they were being beat up or beating up other kids. The winner was being conditioned to brutalize other kids by being rewarded with cheers and status, and the loser was merely being subject to attack without any clue what is going on.
Traumatizing somebody's child by making that their first experience with "fighting" could make them a lot weaker, not stronger. Especially when it's adults who are exploiting them like that and giving them no way out, and really no explanation other than "**** you kid. I say when you get to stop getting beat up."
What if I dont want my kid to grow up to be a piece of **** trash adult who fights for fun, and thinks going to jail once in a while is nothing to be ashamed of? What if I want to teach my kid to learn martial arts seriously and to learn how to defend himself with true training, fight only as a last resort, and never experience mindless brutality?
Just because you think it's okay to kick a kid around and treat him like a dog because you think life is like that, what is good enough for your family isnt necessarily good enough for mine. Have you ever considered the whole "life is brutality - it was good enough for me look how great I turned out" thing is a self fulfilling prophecy?
Have you considered that having kids that are NOT beat up & fightin might let your next generation do even BETTER than you did? I certainly hope for better for my kids than having to be beat up or beat others up. And I definitely want my kids to do better than I did.
It's not just about "consent", it's about basic standards of child care, and respect. These kids were treated like chattel.
You keep ignoring the fact that the "dogfighting" kids had no idea why they were being beat up or beating up other kids. The winner was being conditioned to brutalize other kids by being rewarded with cheers and status, and the loser was merely being subject to attack without any clue what is going on.
Traumatizing somebody's child by making that their first experience with "fighting" could make them a lot weaker, not stronger. Especially when it's adults who are exploiting them like that and giving them no way out, and really no explanation other than "**** you kid. I say when you get to stop getting beat up."
What if I dont want my kid to grow up to be a piece of **** trash adult who fights for fun, and thinks going to jail once in a while is nothing to be ashamed of? What if I want to teach my kid to learn martial arts seriously and to learn how to defend himself with true training, fight only as a last resort, and never experience mindless brutality?
Just because you think it's okay to kick a kid around and treat him like a dog because you think life is like that, what is good enough for your family isnt necessarily good enough for mine. Have you ever considered the whole "life is brutality - it was good enough for me look how great I turned out" thing is a self fulfilling prophecy?
Have you considered that having kids that are NOT beat up & fightin might let your next generation do even BETTER than you did? I certainly hope for better for my kids than having to be beat up or beat others up. And I definitely want my kids to do better than I did.
It's not just about "consent", it's about basic standards of child care, and respect. These kids were treated like chattel.
1) Stop comparing it to dog fighting. Dog fighting is to the death and this wasnt. Matter of fact there was no mention of serious injury to the children.
2) If this is so bad, then why are there organized combat sports that young children (3 years old and up) can learn and compete in?
Other then the consent issues, which I agree are an abuse of power, please tell me the difference between the day care workers putting two 3 year olds together to duke it out and a parent that signs up their child for a combat sport? Its consent.
Did the daycare workers abuse their power? Yes they did.
Is this on the same level as dog/**** fighting? No it isnt.
Is this on the same level as date rape? No it isnt. (the fact this was brought up is laughable to me)
Is it any different then a parent putting their child in a combat sport at 3 or 4 years old? No it isnt.
If you are going to punish these women with child abuse, they better start going after the combat sports and the parents that sign up their children.
Again it comes down to consent. The daycare workers didnt have parental consent. I doubt they get jail time. They will lose their certificates to be daycare workers and wont be allowed to watch children. Maybe a fine and probation. Wanting these women to go to prison for something as minor as this is why our prison system is as messed up as it is. We cant everyone in jail we dont agree with.
it has nothing to do with consent. they were organizing an illegal fight club for 3 year olds. it has nothing to do with a parent saying yes or no.
why is this so far for you to understand.
this isn't minor. they were charged with the safety and well being of the kids in their care.
yeah they will lose their licensing and depending on the charges they could face jail time.
@mystery, I can tell by your posts you are either very young or were raised in an atmosphere different then mine. To just be naive how things were and how people were raised is not an excuse to have the stances you do. We have never agreed on any subject on these boards, I will no longer respond to you. You cant see anything other then the way you see it or was raised to see it.
you make to many assumptions. i am not young. i have 4 kids of my own. yes you are being naive in the fact you think it is ok for day care workers to arrange fist fights for 3 year olds.
you don't understand why day care workers arranging fist fights with 3 year old is wrong. that speaks way more about you than me.
in fact you are comparing it to legal sports in which most have age requirements.
because you make statements that you cannot support or backup. i have asked at least 2 or 3 times for you to support logically how a day care that has what would be a fight club for 3 year old comes close to legal sports that have age requirements.
more than people than just me have tried to explain it to you. either you are wanting to ignore it or are doing it on purpose.
In fact i looked it up you cannot take karate classes or compete in tournies in WI till you are 4.
for wrestling it is 5 or older. some tourny's you have to be 8 or 9 to compete in.
1) Stop comparing it to dog fighting. Dog fighting is to the death and this wasnt. Matter of fact there was no mention of serious injury to the children.
it is like dogfighting because the fighters have no clue why they're fighting, and of they try to not fight, they're thrown right back in.
As imperfect analogies go, it's better than your comparison to sanctioned combat sports, where all participants know its a sporting contest with defined parameters.
In the case of the child abuse fight club, only those babysitters know its not for keeps. The kids are just scared.
1) Stop comparing it to dog fighting. Dog fighting is to the death and this wasnt. Matter of fact there was no mention of serious injury to the children.
Lack of serious injury does not disqualify the comparision. 3 year old children are not particularly strong and their ability to physically harm each other is no where near the level that grown dogs have.
But, in both cases there are adults pushing two individuals together and encouraging them to at least try to hurt each other, while none the fighting parties have the mental capabilities to understand their actions.
What if they were not children, but mentally challenged adults that have minds similar to that of a child. Would be OK for the caretakers to have them pit fight? Neither the children, the mentally challenged adults nor the dogs have a clear understanding of their actions.
Because people train their children to defend themselves does not make this OK, or even marginally acceptable. Are the children enrolled in marital arts being trained so they can be pitted against each other for the entertainment of the adults? That's what was happening here.
2) If this is so bad, then why are there organized combat sports that young children (3 years old and up) can learn and compete in?
Other then the consent issues, which I agree are an abuse of power, please tell me the difference between the day care workers putting two 3 year olds together to duke it out and a parent that signs up their child for a combat sport? Its consent.
It's more than consent. If the martial arts training children are receiving boils down to pushing the kids together and yelling "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" then it should be just as illegal as what is happening here.
Personally, I think this is child abuse. I also happen to think having two children fight each other by any means at the age of 3 is child abuse, but that's just me, and I understand the positions of people that disagree with me.
Did the daycare workers abuse their power? Yes they did.
Is this on the same level as dog/**** fighting? No it isnt.
I disagree. Without saying "other people consent to having their kids beat on each other" tell me why it isn't wrong to have two individuals fight each other when at least one of the parties involved doesn't have full understanding of their actions (this obvious makes the assumption that these kids didn't understand that they were being encouraged to fight to entertain the adults).
Is it any different then a parent putting their child in a combat sport at 3 or 4 years old? No it isnt.
It depends on the manner of the training, the kind of combat sport, and the particular child. There are forms of combat training I would call child abuse regardless of consent.
If you are going to punish these women with child abuse, they better start going after the combat sports and the parents that sign up their children.
Perhaps we should. How can you be sure a 3 year old WANTS to hit, and be hit by, other kids? Is it a decision the child made, or is it a decision the adult made for them? There are a lot of factors, and is not a black and white issue.
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it is like dogfighting because the fighters have no clue why they're fighting, and of they try to not fight, they're thrown right back in.
As imperfect analogies go, it's better than your comparison to sanctioned combat sports, where all participants know its a sporting contest with defined parameters.
In the case of the child abuse fight club, only those babysitters know its not for keeps. The kids are just scared.
You dont know that. Where you there? Did the kids tell you they were scared?
Comparing organized sports and this fight club is logical. In both instances an adult is putting the child at risk in a combat sport. It doesnt matter if its a parent or a daycare worker. But society says its ok for a parent to do this, but not a care giver, why? Because of the consent angle.
As a parent it is perfectly fine to walk into a martial arts studio or a wrestling club or a boxing club and sign your child up for a combat sport. Society doesnt see a problem with it because you are the parent. But the parents have entrusted these day care workers with their children, in essence making them the guardians of the child for the time they are in the day care. Now these daycare workers chose to have the kids fight. No different then a parent signing a child up for a combat sport. The only difference is the parents didnt sign them up for it.
Like I have said, the daycare workers over stepped their limits and will lose the right to watch other kids. I doubt they face any jail time, but it is possible. But there is no difference in a guardian or a parent putting a child in a combat moment. If they are going to punish the daycare workers, they need to start going after the parents that enroll their 3 and 4 year olds in combat sports. If its not the act that is the problem, since there are no specific laws on the books about fighting, its the consent angle which I agree the daycare workers are guilty of proceeding without consent of the parents.
Perhaps we should. How can you be sure a 3 year old WANTS to hit, and be hit by, other kids? Is it a decision the child made, or is it a decision the adult made for them? There are a lot of factors, and is not a black and white issue.
THANK YOU! Someone understands what I was trying to get across.
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There's a difference between say a child that actually wants to do martial arts, and a child being forced into it. There's some children that abhor fighting rather early, others revel in it. It comes down to the individual to an extent and how they're raised.
4 seems to be really the magical age in child development, frankly I sort of counted down the years till mine got to that stage to get beyond the toddler stage.
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that is it exactly. This is child abuse pure and simple. It has nothing to do with consent from a parent. Parents don't enroll their kids in day care so that they can get into punching matches with other kids.
that seems to be what bocephus can't understand. This wasn't a sporting event or a contact sport it was a day care.
parents drop their kids off to play and have fun not get in fist fights.
Neither was I. although i started karate a bit later in life than 3 or 4 but it was my decision.
Depends on how many kids there are. it seems the more kids the quicker the younger ones learn and the faster they learn. my 2 year old speaks pretty well the others took a bit longer.
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That too and the parents' speaking ability to the child, but the more complex concepts though are what I found to be lacking to an extent with the metacognitive abilities maturing and social scaffolding process.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Interesting. Would you consider parents that put children into a contact sport at age 3 or 4 up for child abuse? What about a parent that signs up a kids for swimming classes when the kid doesnt want to be in the water or is scared of deep water? Forces gymnastics on their child?
I dont see it as child abuse. I see it as an uptight society that has gotten to uppity about certain things. To each their own tho.
what does any of that have to do with day care workers forcing kids to fight each other for their own entertainment? please explain it to me?
how are they even connected on any remote logical scale?
Unfortuantly for you the law does. you see this is the same thing that got michael vick in trouble only with dogs.
he was having dogs fight each other which is illegal.
day care workers having kids fight each other is illegal.
parents signing their kids up for sports is not illegal. see the difference?
i put my then 4 year old in tee ball. he wanted to play and we signed him up.
you keep bringing up concent and it has nothing to do with what happened. these daycare workers forced kids into fights. please go read the article if you do not understand what was going on.
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Its just another subject we dont agree on, is there any? I assume you are saying now all laws on the books are good and just and should all be enforced to the letter of the law.
please answer the question and stop avoiding it.
How is signing your kids up for sports the same as day care workers having kids fight each other for their entertainment?
How on any logical scale do these even come close?
vick was convicted of dog fighting. In fact dog fighting is illegal.
this is no different than dog fighting only you are putting 3 year olds in. hence why it is illegal and child abuse.
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Dog fighting is a way of life for some. Has been for centuries. Same can be said for cockfighting and other forms of using animals for entertainment. Its is only illegal now because of some soapbox screamers who have nothing better to do with their time then sticking their nose into others business. I am not saying I condone dog fighting or any other kind of animal entertainment, but I have no business telling others how they should spend their money or time.
As for the children, and the consent issues. If you are going to throw the babysitters in jail because of these action, you have to do the same to the parents who sign there kids up for contact sports such as boxing, martial arts and wrestling. Same difference, the only thing missing is consent.
Water isn't a contact sport, and water's a basic fear that can condition the child over time to not be scared of it. Large pain in the ass, but various ways to go about it.
Now, for talking about something like gymnastics or dance, while not child abuse but it becomes a waste of money if the child doesn't take to it and shows no aptitude becomes a waste of potential time away from something the child may actually be good at and actually wants to do. Ultimately, can't force a child to always conform they learn whining pretty fast and weaseling is a life long art that grows in complexity through out the years.
Forcing a child to box another child, whereas the child was perfectly fine hitting the bag and cries every time they get hit and runs out of the ring and doesn't want to fight? That's incompetency, it does however become child abuse if the child lacks proper gear.
For a parent, you have to pick your battles. I never personally felt the need to make children do activities they don't get an incentive out of for their own time investment just because the parent "thinks it's cool." Especially whenever it has little utilitarian value.
Also comes into teaching the child negotiation skills and the like to curb the whining and weaseling problem. Especially if the child shows a preference themselves for certain activities. Initially, I agree that "making someone try something" is more than fair, but I feel if the child hated the activity after some time and is compliant and respectful they should be rewarded with something they want to do or to buy as compensation if it was something the parent really wanted the child to do.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
They do not do so legally... definitely not at the age of 3.
We have an irreconcilable difference here that will not be resolved. In the Western World in the 21st century, there's no way you are going to convince me that this is necessary... or even acceptable, for that matter.
Surely there are many people who have lived long, full lives without ever bloodying a fellow human being.
Thank you for the well thought out response. Usually I agree with you about almost everything but in this case I dont. I dont think the women should go unpunished because they were doing something with the children without consent, but I dont feel its any worse then things parents make their children do.
If we break down the incident, what actually makes it child abuse?
Is it the fact 2 children were fighting? If this is so, every family with multiple children are guilty of child abuse.
Is it the fact the children were made to do something against their will? If this is the case then every parent in the world is guilty of child abuse.
Is it because the women were using the children without the parents knowledge? This I can get behind, but I still dont think it would be child abuse, more an abuse of power. Its not like a 20 year old adult was beating a 3 year old. That I would consider child abuse.
Fair enough, but I would suggest getting out more. Every year I attend the youth state wrestling tournament where children as young as 3 are paired off by weight and put on the mat. Martial arts clubs are training and competing single digit children in their chosen martial art. Its been a decade since my son boxed but at the time he was single digit age and fighting other single digit children. Its part of the American society. Kids watch their favorite action hero and want to do the same thing as they see. Violence is a way of life in America, and it starts at a very young age.
There are names for them, but I will keep it nice.
I am willing to bet there are people you know who you feel are nice and never bloodied someone that have at one time or another.
It seems that you cannot tell the difference between a legalized sport and a what would be considered an underground fighting ring which are illegal.
or even have to fight someone.
Really I don't know too many parents that force their kids to fist fight each other. in fact they usually break it up and if anyone did any hitting would get in major trouble.
again please show me where parents create fighting rings with 3 year olds and force them to fight each other outside of a sporting activity. that would be illegal as well.
the law and other people disagree with you. this is a clear sign of child abuse. again parents don't stick their kids in daycare to be forced into fist fights with other kids.
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The act of fighting is not against the law, it is only when someone feels it was done in an unfair manner it becomes a court problem. Two 3 year olds fighting is not an unfair manner. (If you are going to keep comparing it to dog fighting, The fight club wasnt until death like dog fighting is, which is why it was made illegal)
You have to remember, fighting publicly was the way situations were settled up till the late 80s. Then something happened that everyone decided it was better to let lawyers fight their battles insted of themselves.
I was raised in a neighborhood where if you had a problem with someone else in the neighborhood, THE PARENTS would stand the 2 of you nose to nose and toes to toes and let you duke out the problem. That type of parenting changed in the 80s when the law makers went on a law making rampage.
(a) parents explaining to their kids to "punch it out and end it, then shake hands" where boundaries and limits are clearly set, and both kids' parents are clearly just trying to get the kids to respect each other.
Vs
(b) 3 adult daycare workers throwing somebody else's 3 year old (a 3 year old left in their care), into a fight against some other aggressive 3 year old, to fight for their amusement while they cheer on. And whoever is the losing kid has no clue why they're fighting, but he's getting hurt and crying and crapping his pants, while a bunch of trashy adults are cheering the other kid on to humiliate him. And when he runs to an adult because he's had enough, gets thrown back in to get beat up some more? The kid has no idea why he's in A very REAL "fight or flight mode", terrified, no idea where he can escape, no idea whether this will end, no idea whether this is life or death or not. For all he knows he's gonna be killed. It's just a terrifying experience where adults whom his parents sent him to for care, are treating him like a piece of garbage, pushing him away & throwing him into a fight when he comes for comfort and forcing him to fight and laughing and cheering when he gets hurt. Clearly these caseworkers have extreme hostility towards the kids or the parents, and don't even look on these kids as children at all.
What kind of defective parent could not tell the difference between (a) and (b)?
Are you trolling?
Not that I approve of (a), but I understand that rationale. (b) is just horrific and infuriating. Those daycare workers need serious prison time for that.
please go out and have a fist fight with someone you will be hauled off to jail for disorderly conduct, assault and probably several other charges.
fair or unfair doesn't matter.
no it wasn't it was illegal then and is still illegal today.
then i feel sorry for you and you have my sympathy. fighting was always a last restort and did nothing to solve the situation in fact it usually made it worse.
it has nothing to do with law makers making laws. they have always been there.
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This matter is messed up. I don't know much about that industry and I don't know everything under the Sun about children (but no one does), but I think there are so many egregious transgressions here.
Those kinder need to be protected from themselves (or the crap within humans), each other, and those heinous bastards of child minders, and those child minders need not only a black mark that prevents them from ever dealing with children but also that brands them for the entirety of the lives. A pitseleh is a sacred thing. A gift from It, he or she is precious and should not be messed with.
Again it comes down to consent. The daycare workers didnt have parental consent. I doubt they get jail time. They will lose their certificates to be daycare workers and wont be allowed to watch children. Maybe a fine and probation. Wanting these women to go to prison for something as minor as this is why our prison system is as messed up as it is. We cant everyone in jail we dont agree with.
@mystery, I can tell by your posts you are either very young or were raised in an atmosphere different then mine. To just be naive how things were and how people were raised is not an excuse to have the stances you do. We have never agreed on any subject on these boards, I will no longer respond to you. You cant see anything other then the way you see it or was raised to see it.
How can you consider this minor? People who were supposed to be watching over kids are instead forcing them to fight in a way that is most likely going to leave them with years of therapy and/or emotional issues.
It's minor the same way date rape is "minor" -- sure there wasn't any physical violence forcing people to do something, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a violent and reprehensible act.
The fact you compare two 3 year olds fighting to date rape shows me you are making way too much of this. Show me the reports of children coming home with serious injuries. I would agree if it was older kids beating on the 3 year olds or the day care workers smacking them around. But these are 3 year olds for christ sake. how much damage do you really think a 3 year old can do to another 3 year old? This isnt to the death, or even till one is knocked out. Its just two 3 year olds scuffling without the consent of their parents. You can see this any day of the week in any playground in the country. Hell kids fight over who gets to go down the slide first.
You keep ignoring the fact that the "dogfighting" kids had no idea why they were being beat up or beating up other kids. The winner was being conditioned to brutalize other kids by being rewarded with cheers and status, and the loser was merely being subject to attack without any clue what is going on.
Traumatizing somebody's child by making that their first experience with "fighting" could make them a lot weaker, not stronger. Especially when it's adults who are exploiting them like that and giving them no way out, and really no explanation other than "**** you kid. I say when you get to stop getting beat up."
What if I dont want my kid to grow up to be a piece of **** trash adult who fights for fun, and thinks going to jail once in a while is nothing to be ashamed of? What if I want to teach my kid to learn martial arts seriously and to learn how to defend himself with true training, fight only as a last resort, and never experience mindless brutality?
Just because you think it's okay to kick a kid around and treat him like a dog because you think life is like that, what is good enough for your family isnt necessarily good enough for mine. Have you ever considered the whole "life is brutality - it was good enough for me look how great I turned out" thing is a self fulfilling prophecy?
Have you considered that having kids that are NOT beat up & fightin might let your next generation do even BETTER than you did? I certainly hope for better for my kids than having to be beat up or beat others up. And I definitely want my kids to do better than I did.
It's not just about "consent", it's about basic standards of child care, and respect. These kids were treated like chattel.
1) Stop comparing it to dog fighting. Dog fighting is to the death and this wasnt. Matter of fact there was no mention of serious injury to the children.
2) If this is so bad, then why are there organized combat sports that young children (3 years old and up) can learn and compete in?
Other then the consent issues, which I agree are an abuse of power, please tell me the difference between the day care workers putting two 3 year olds together to duke it out and a parent that signs up their child for a combat sport? Its consent.
Did the daycare workers abuse their power? Yes they did.
Is this on the same level as dog/**** fighting? No it isnt.
Is this on the same level as date rape? No it isnt. (the fact this was brought up is laughable to me)
Is it any different then a parent putting their child in a combat sport at 3 or 4 years old? No it isnt.
If you are going to punish these women with child abuse, they better start going after the combat sports and the parents that sign up their children.
it has nothing to do with consent. they were organizing an illegal fight club for 3 year olds. it has nothing to do with a parent saying yes or no.
why is this so far for you to understand.
this isn't minor. they were charged with the safety and well being of the kids in their care.
yeah they will lose their licensing and depending on the charges they could face jail time.
you make to many assumptions. i am not young. i have 4 kids of my own. yes you are being naive in the fact you think it is ok for day care workers to arrange fist fights for 3 year olds.
you don't understand why day care workers arranging fist fights with 3 year old is wrong. that speaks way more about you than me.
in fact you are comparing it to legal sports in which most have age requirements.
because you make statements that you cannot support or backup. i have asked at least 2 or 3 times for you to support logically how a day care that has what would be a fight club for 3 year old comes close to legal sports that have age requirements.
more than people than just me have tried to explain it to you. either you are wanting to ignore it or are doing it on purpose.
In fact i looked it up you cannot take karate classes or compete in tournies in WI till you are 4.
for wrestling it is 5 or older. some tourny's you have to be 8 or 9 to compete in.
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As imperfect analogies go, it's better than your comparison to sanctioned combat sports, where all participants know its a sporting contest with defined parameters.
In the case of the child abuse fight club, only those babysitters know its not for keeps. The kids are just scared.
Lack of serious injury does not disqualify the comparision. 3 year old children are not particularly strong and their ability to physically harm each other is no where near the level that grown dogs have.
But, in both cases there are adults pushing two individuals together and encouraging them to at least try to hurt each other, while none the fighting parties have the mental capabilities to understand their actions.
What if they were not children, but mentally challenged adults that have minds similar to that of a child. Would be OK for the caretakers to have them pit fight? Neither the children, the mentally challenged adults nor the dogs have a clear understanding of their actions.
Because people train their children to defend themselves does not make this OK, or even marginally acceptable. Are the children enrolled in marital arts being trained so they can be pitted against each other for the entertainment of the adults? That's what was happening here.
It's more than consent. If the martial arts training children are receiving boils down to pushing the kids together and yelling "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" then it should be just as illegal as what is happening here.
Personally, I think this is child abuse. I also happen to think having two children fight each other by any means at the age of 3 is child abuse, but that's just me, and I understand the positions of people that disagree with me.
I disagree. Without saying "other people consent to having their kids beat on each other" tell me why it isn't wrong to have two individuals fight each other when at least one of the parties involved doesn't have full understanding of their actions (this obvious makes the assumption that these kids didn't understand that they were being encouraged to fight to entertain the adults).
It depends on the manner of the training, the kind of combat sport, and the particular child. There are forms of combat training I would call child abuse regardless of consent.
Perhaps we should. How can you be sure a 3 year old WANTS to hit, and be hit by, other kids? Is it a decision the child made, or is it a decision the adult made for them? There are a lot of factors, and is not a black and white issue.
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great
You dont know that. Where you there? Did the kids tell you they were scared?
Comparing organized sports and this fight club is logical. In both instances an adult is putting the child at risk in a combat sport. It doesnt matter if its a parent or a daycare worker. But society says its ok for a parent to do this, but not a care giver, why? Because of the consent angle.
As a parent it is perfectly fine to walk into a martial arts studio or a wrestling club or a boxing club and sign your child up for a combat sport. Society doesnt see a problem with it because you are the parent. But the parents have entrusted these day care workers with their children, in essence making them the guardians of the child for the time they are in the day care. Now these daycare workers chose to have the kids fight. No different then a parent signing a child up for a combat sport. The only difference is the parents didnt sign them up for it.
Like I have said, the daycare workers over stepped their limits and will lose the right to watch other kids. I doubt they face any jail time, but it is possible. But there is no difference in a guardian or a parent putting a child in a combat moment. If they are going to punish the daycare workers, they need to start going after the parents that enroll their 3 and 4 year olds in combat sports. If its not the act that is the problem, since there are no specific laws on the books about fighting, its the consent angle which I agree the daycare workers are guilty of proceeding without consent of the parents.
THANK YOU! Someone understands what I was trying to get across.