There are people at my LCS, some are acquaintances, some are friends, and we're all around the same level in playing skill, but whenever I clarify a ruling for something they don't trust me even though I know I'm right, and this has happened on several occasions:
Someone was building a mono black EDH deck, and he had Dreadship Reef in it. I told him you can't use cards with mana symbols on them that don't appear in your general's casting cost. He didn't believe me and said I didn't know what I was talking about. But later one of my friends told him and he took it out.
This same guy, uses Karn's ability to turn an equipment attached to a creature into an artifact creature. I told him that it falls off, but he said he never heard of it before so he just ignored me.
During another EDH game, someone uses Animate Dead on Akroma, Angel of Wrath. I tell them that you can't do this, but everyone ignores me.
In a standard game, this guy had a Kor Firewalker in play, and his opponent casts Unstable Footing and Earthquake. He wanted to know what happened, so I explained the protection rules. But as before, he didn't believe me and then called on someone else who said the same thing. Seriously, what was the point in asking me if he wasn't going to believe me.
Another time in EDH, this guy argued that anytime your general would leave play, you can choose to send it to the general zone. I told him that you can only do this when it's sent to the graveyard or exiled. He actually got pissed off and told me to go look at the rules on the wall, and thank God they were there, because I actually brought the damn thing over and had him look at it.
Oh, and to top it all off everyone pronounces Gaea as "Gaia". I understand that they're the same entity, but the names are pronounced differently. See my signature for proof. As with everything before, I tried explaining this but they won't believe me.
I can't claim to know all the rulings, but I know these things. For some reason we all get along, but then it feels like they don't trust me even though I've done nothing wrong.
You can, actually, Animate-dead an Akroma. It will however fall off when Akroma enters the battlefield, but if there is some kind of ETB-effect in play, like Herd Gnarr, it might make sense to.
I am fairly sure it works.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
The following are catch all suggestions. I'm not saying you need to work on all of them, or perhaps even any of them, merely I don't know enough about the exact ins and abouts and tried to give you a good set of principles to work by
You sound like you have a firm hold on the rules of Magic. Are you/have you considered being a part of the Judge program?
People generally tend to listen more to qualified judges then players who 'claim' to know the rules. Even being a rules advisor gives more weight to your words if you pass the test, which also opens up avenues to judging events and earning booster boxes/wonga etc.
Also, think about the way you're telling them about a rule. Most people feel taken aback when they're told "Hold on now, you can't do that that's not right. You're wrong for x reason." Language like "Hold on a sec there bud, can I just check what you're trying to do. Ok, a really cool idea but unfortunatly you can't do it because of x reason." It's less forcefull and would generally be seen as less offensive, especially to less experianced players or players without a firm a grasp in the rules as yourself.
If it's not the way you're telling them a ruling, think about how you treat people in general. Maybe you're unaware, but you might be rubbing them up the wrong way with your rulings. Maybe you're getting involved in a casual game making a mountain out of a mole hill? A lot of times in a casual setting, especially with plenty of less experianced players, giving them some slack and telling them what they did wrong/tried to do wrong after the game can help diffuse what could have been a contentious issue. They get to play a fun game uninterupted and then learn what they did wrong afterwards.
Is there a designated judge at your events, or someone already considered the "go-to" guy for rules queries in the group? Sometimes its an idea to differ to them, especially if it's a rules query in a game you're directly involved with, as it shows players you're impartial. Also, waiting to be asked by someone is a good way to look impartial as plenty of people get annoyed when someone completely outside of the game appears to 'barge in' about the rules before an issue about it has even come up.
Or finally, perhaps, your play group really is full of jerks who don't bother to listen to you out of spite. In which case, biting your tongue and getting on with it might be the best way.
Just a few pointers to bear in mind.
I think it would be cool to judge for Magic, but I don't think I could do it because I have a bad back. I head judged a Yu-Gi-Oh regional once and I couldn't walk around the whole time, and the tournament organizer didn't like that I took breaks. Not to mention, after talking to a level 2 judge I know, being constantly evaluated and scrutinized can be taxing enough that even he doesn't feel like judging. There's also the fact that I would have to wake up and get to the tournament center earlier than if I was just playing, and being a couple hours away from Seattle is not pleasant. Not to mention that I might be tired in the last few rounds, and I'm afraid I might mess up a ruling. Once you make a mistake as a judge, people will hold it against you forever. For instance there's this one head judge that players make fun of because he didn't remember the exact wording of Samurai of the Pale Curtain and asked why a card wasn't exiled (because it was an instant or sorcery).
If I pass the Rules Advisor test, do I get a card in the mail that says I'm a Rules Advisor?
You might be right about the language thing. I can see how being short and concise can come off as being terse, which is how I usually am because I like to get to the point.
I treat people with respect, but sometimes I inevitably rub some people the wrong way. I've even tried changing my tone, but it keeps happening.
I WARNED YOU ABOUT TONES BRO
I TOLD YOU DAWG
If you didn't get this it's a reference to Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff
Yeah, there's a Rules Advisor at our store, but he can't always be around. And I actually do ask him when he's available.
They can be jerks sometimes, but I really hope they're not ignoring me just to spite me. But then again they might be the type of people who have the "respect must be earned" mentality, which isn't right because you should be respectful to everyone.
You can, actually, Animate-dead an Akroma. It will however fall off when Akroma enters the battlefield, but if there is some kind of ETB-effect in play, like Herd Gnarr, it might make sense to.
I am fairly sure it works.
Technically you can Animate Dead Akroma, but it would fall off once Akroma ETB and Akroma would die. The point is they didn't listen and left Akroma on the board.
Ya, just based upon the tone of your post, you might be coming across with a "holier than thou" attitude, which can be off-putting to other people. Intelligent guys don't like being told what to do, especially when they feel they're right, and especially when it's from one of their peers, who isn't necessarily more qualified.
And "Jee-ah" sounds like a silly way to pronounce "Gaea." Pronouncing it "Guy-uh" sounds way better, whether or not it's right.
Also, don't forget that the 2nd confirmation of a rule (such as in your first post), made him certain. I'm sure if the other guy said the rule first, and you confirmed it later, the same thing would have happened.
If I pass the Rules Advisor test, do I get a card in the mail that says I'm a Rules Advisor?
Yes, you do, though that came as part of an MPR mailing for me so you might have to wait longer for it to arrive.
Quote from Dio »
Oh, and to top it all off everyone pronounces Gaea as "Gaia". I understand that they're the same entity, but the names are pronounced differently. See my signature for proof. As with everything before, I tried explaining this but they won't believe me.
This really, really shouldn't bother you. Gay-ya and Guy-ya are variations on the same name, like Herecles and Hercules.
Have you considered that human beings simply don't want to hear answers they don't like? Of course they are going to want to find a second opinion, don't be so offended. One random guy at the magic shop isn't a definitive rules source, so I'd always seek a second opinion either way.
In any case, don't try to be a rules authority without being a judge. No one likes that one rules nazi who constantly buts in with 'Well, actually...' (in the Urkle voice). You know the one I'm talking about. I doubt thats you, Dio, so don't worry so much when people look for that second opinion.
How old are you?
I have this problem as well, 96% of the time I'm right, but because I'm quite young people normally get someone older just to say the same thing that I did.
I'm 23 so I don't think it's an age thing. Sorry to hear that it's happening to you too.
Have you considered that human beings simply don't want to hear answers they don't like? Of course they are going to want to find a second opinion, don't be so offended. One random guy at the magic shop isn't a definitive rules source, so I'd always seek a second opinion either way.
In any case, don't try to be a rules authority without being a judge. No one likes that one rules nazi who constantly buts in with 'Well, actually...' (in the Urkle voice). You know the one I'm talking about. I doubt thats you, Dio, so don't worry so much when people look for that second opinion.
I wouldn't consider myself some random Magic guy, I've been playing at that store pretty much every FNM and some weekends for over a year.
I'm not bothered that people are looking for a second opinion, but that people don't trust me with rulings at all. And I wasn't trying to be a rules authority, considering we all correct each other on rulings.
Another problem is that if people hear something repeated, even if it's false, they'll think it's true. This is why one in every five Americans believe that President Obama is Muslim, even though he's not.
Another problem is that if people hear something repeated, even if it's false, they'll think it's true. This is why one in every five Americans believe that President Obama is Muslim, even though he's not.
That's a good point. Human nature is confusing. I tend to be charasmatic, and after years of thinking about why it is so much easier for me to convince people of things (in person) than most other people I know, I think it has a lot more to do with projected confidence than any other factor. What also helps is building a reputation as someone reliable and knowledgable (without being pushy). A lot of it is innate, but I'm still going with more than likely people just don't want to believe your ruling, especially as you described it typically means a negative for them.
The Rules nerd here are like the Flash. If you submit an EDH specific Rules question HERE it will usually be answered within a few minutes. I know that most people will ***** and moan about it, but having a neutral outside party helps.
I suggest leaving the editorial out if you do ask questions there - just ask, "Is Dreadship Reef legal in a deck with Volrath the Fallen as the General?" or whatever.
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
Always carry around a laptop or specific EDH errata with you to prove that you are right on every occasion. It's the only way you're going to get people to accept that you know what you're talking about.
My policy is to agree on something during the game. Something we all can agree on. And if we cannot agree, I might 'give' it to the one with the weakest board position, and remember the exact situation.
Later then, I post it as a question in the rules forum, and send the answer out through mail. Maybe it doesn't bring immediate salvation, but we'll get it right the next time.
Also, after a while it will become clear who is right in general, and who isn't...
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These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
You have to just never be wrong. My playgroup always believes my rulings because they are always right. If I don't know for sure, I very clearly state that I don't know but think it is probably whatever. You have probably (definitely) either given false rulings or not given enough correct rulings to be trustworthy. If you have given 1 false ruling, then that is what everyone will remember and your opinion isn't worth anything so just give up now. If you haven't, then just keep being right and eventually they will get it.
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Go Habs Go!
On a trade break. Getting ripped blows...
I kind of felt bad before until you made a big deal about how people pronounce Gaea. And then pointed out that it's in your sig(because just bringing it up wasn't bad enough). Are you going to whine about the fact that people say mana in a couple of different ways next? You sound like a snob, which is probably the real reason as to why people don't want to listen to you.
As for the rulings..shrug. Stop giving people rulings if they're clearly never going to listen to you.
I think a lot of it is in the delivery. If you go to a sanctioned tournament, observe how the judges deliver rulings. They stop and observe the situation, making sure they have all the info, then they decisively make a ruling. If a lower judge doesn't know, he runs and gets the HJ.
I have had this same problem with my (two) playgroups and I have some successful techniques.
1) Deliver your ruling once (twice maximum) and then drop it. Speak it clearly, simply, and siting the principle behind the ruling. If players learn the prinicipal behind the rule, they will enjoy the game better.
2) If you don't know, say so. But then go home, look it up, and bring in a printout (Rulings forum on this site is good enough). People will look at you weird the first time or two, but the ones who want to know will respect you.
3) If someone is really playing outside the rules, like attacking you with an Akroma with Animate Dead on it, don't take the damage and ignore the player, and say off-hand stuff like, well, Player Q is not really in the game, so... you can only push this only so far, but people will get the point. (footnote below)
4) If someone else is making a ruling, listen attentively and then say, that's right, or no, because of x... Or you might say, your result is right, but it really works because of x. Allow other people to rule too, and be supportive.
5) If a repeated problem comes up, try the printout thing, but one day, say: you need to look up Rule 401b or whatever. If you quote chapter and verse to them, they can't do nothing.
6) It's mostly in your personality. Don't be shrill. They're there to play a game and have fun. To do it right you need to know the rules; be an ambassador to the rules instead of whining with an attitude of why won't you listen to me, guys???!!!
7) Bring in some crazy deck that has a really annoying rules interaction. People will hate you, but they will start to wonder if you know your stuff [only for advanced users ;)].
J
footnote: we used to have a player who would look at the top card(s) of his library during group games. I would just sit there and say, wow, Player Z is getting in some massive cheats. I explain it calmly. Mesmeric Orb would be out and Player Z would say well I am going to mill these six cards anyway so I am going to look at them. I'd say, if someone Naturalizes Mesmeric Orb then you just got in massive cheats. Must be nice, blah blah blah. Then you Naturalize it (or someone does) and then you really rub it in. They say, well, I'll just shuffle then. You say, hmmm that's more massive cheats. Boring. etc. etc. Save being a jerk for when a player's rules cheats is dominating the table, then everyone will side with you.
You have to just never be wrong. My playgroup always believes my rulings because they are always right. If I don't know for sure, I very clearly state that I don't know but think it is probably whatever. You have probably (definitely) either given false rulings or not given enough correct rulings to be trustworthy. If you have given 1 false ruling, then that is what everyone will remember and your opinion isn't worth anything so just give up now. If you haven't, then just keep being right and eventually they will get it.
What's ridiculous is that they've been wrong on rulings, but people will generally be okay with the ruling if it sounds reasonable. And as I mentioned below, they probably aren't paying enough attention when I'm ASKING about a ruling than when I'm clarifying a ruling. Though yesterday was okay as I took it slow when a player had Leonin Arbiter out and his opponent was searching for an eldrazi with Eye of Ugin. I asked stuff like "So that ability costs 7 to activate right?" Then I followed up with "I don't see the 9 mana".
I kind of felt bad before until you made a big deal about how people pronounce Gaea. And then pointed out that it's in your sig(because just bringing it up wasn't bad enough). Are you going to whine about the fact that people say mana in a couple of different ways next? You sound like a snob, which is probably the real reason as to why people don't want to listen to you.
As for the rulings..shrug. Stop giving people rulings if they're clearly never going to listen to you.
Uh, no, I don't care how people pronounce mana. But Gaea is a proper name. Usually when someone mispronounces a name, they're usually corrected at the store. I was doing the same, but ooh double standard. Hell, even the dealer who comes in from out of town will correct people on pronunciations. I only put the correct pronunciation in my sig because I'd like more people to know about it. Like I said before, people are so used to hearing something incorrect that they think it's true (example: 1 in 5 Americans believed that President Obama was a Muslim, all because of the tabloids! If it's repeated enough people will believe it). After reading my original post again, I don't think it comes off as a big deal and I didn't intend it that way. It's just another example, though less important than the rules, that some people don't want to listen to me.
But you know, I think I am going to stop trying, because really they are bigger jerks than me. They clearly can't distinguish between me asking about a ruling and clarifying a ruling. As for bringing a laptop, I don't feel it's worth it. I do like the printing idea, if only I had a printer that worked. I think it would be more efficient if I just showed the rulings to my actual friends in the group and they'll help spread it.
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Someone was building a mono black EDH deck, and he had Dreadship Reef in it. I told him you can't use cards with mana symbols on them that don't appear in your general's casting cost. He didn't believe me and said I didn't know what I was talking about. But later one of my friends told him and he took it out.
This same guy, uses Karn's ability to turn an equipment attached to a creature into an artifact creature. I told him that it falls off, but he said he never heard of it before so he just ignored me.
During another EDH game, someone uses Animate Dead on Akroma, Angel of Wrath. I tell them that you can't do this, but everyone ignores me.
In a standard game, this guy had a Kor Firewalker in play, and his opponent casts Unstable Footing and Earthquake. He wanted to know what happened, so I explained the protection rules. But as before, he didn't believe me and then called on someone else who said the same thing. Seriously, what was the point in asking me if he wasn't going to believe me.
Another time in EDH, this guy argued that anytime your general would leave play, you can choose to send it to the general zone. I told him that you can only do this when it's sent to the graveyard or exiled. He actually got pissed off and told me to go look at the rules on the wall, and thank God they were there, because I actually brought the damn thing over and had him look at it.
Oh, and to top it all off everyone pronounces Gaea as "Gaia". I understand that they're the same entity, but the names are pronounced differently. See my signature for proof. As with everything before, I tried explaining this but they won't believe me.
I can't claim to know all the rulings, but I know these things. For some reason we all get along, but then it feels like they don't trust me even though I've done nothing wrong.
I am fairly sure it works.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I think it would be cool to judge for Magic, but I don't think I could do it because I have a bad back. I head judged a Yu-Gi-Oh regional once and I couldn't walk around the whole time, and the tournament organizer didn't like that I took breaks. Not to mention, after talking to a level 2 judge I know, being constantly evaluated and scrutinized can be taxing enough that even he doesn't feel like judging. There's also the fact that I would have to wake up and get to the tournament center earlier than if I was just playing, and being a couple hours away from Seattle is not pleasant. Not to mention that I might be tired in the last few rounds, and I'm afraid I might mess up a ruling. Once you make a mistake as a judge, people will hold it against you forever. For instance there's this one head judge that players make fun of because he didn't remember the exact wording of Samurai of the Pale Curtain and asked why a card wasn't exiled (because it was an instant or sorcery).
If I pass the Rules Advisor test, do I get a card in the mail that says I'm a Rules Advisor?
You might be right about the language thing. I can see how being short and concise can come off as being terse, which is how I usually am because I like to get to the point.
I treat people with respect, but sometimes I inevitably rub some people the wrong way. I've even tried changing my tone, but it keeps happening.
I TOLD YOU DAWG
Yeah, there's a Rules Advisor at our store, but he can't always be around. And I actually do ask him when he's available.
They can be jerks sometimes, but I really hope they're not ignoring me just to spite me. But then again they might be the type of people who have the "respect must be earned" mentality, which isn't right because you should be respectful to everyone.
Thanks for bringing these points up.
Technically you can Animate Dead Akroma, but it would fall off once Akroma ETB and Akroma would die. The point is they didn't listen and left Akroma on the board.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
And "Jee-ah" sounds like a silly way to pronounce "Gaea." Pronouncing it "Guy-uh" sounds way better, whether or not it's right.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Yes, you do, though that came as part of an MPR mailing for me so you might have to wait longer for it to arrive.
This really, really shouldn't bother you. Gay-ya and Guy-ya are variations on the same name, like Herecles and Hercules.
In any case, don't try to be a rules authority without being a judge. No one likes that one rules nazi who constantly buts in with 'Well, actually...' (in the Urkle voice). You know the one I'm talking about. I doubt thats you, Dio, so don't worry so much when people look for that second opinion.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I'm 23 so I don't think it's an age thing. Sorry to hear that it's happening to you too.
I wouldn't consider myself some random Magic guy, I've been playing at that store pretty much every FNM and some weekends for over a year.
I'm not bothered that people are looking for a second opinion, but that people don't trust me with rulings at all. And I wasn't trying to be a rules authority, considering we all correct each other on rulings.
Another problem is that if people hear something repeated, even if it's false, they'll think it's true. This is why one in every five Americans believe that President Obama is Muslim, even though he's not.
That's a good point. Human nature is confusing. I tend to be charasmatic, and after years of thinking about why it is so much easier for me to convince people of things (in person) than most other people I know, I think it has a lot more to do with projected confidence than any other factor. What also helps is building a reputation as someone reliable and knowledgable (without being pushy). A lot of it is innate, but I'm still going with more than likely people just don't want to believe your ruling, especially as you described it typically means a negative for them.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I suggest leaving the editorial out if you do ask questions there - just ask, "Is Dreadship Reef legal in a deck with Volrath the Fallen as the General?" or whatever.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Is this for real? I was told by a Level 1 some time ago that I'm "officially Level 0" and thought he was just joking around.
Later then, I post it as a question in the rules forum, and send the answer out through mail. Maybe it doesn't bring immediate salvation, but we'll get it right the next time.
Also, after a while it will become clear who is right in general, and who isn't...
These are the decks that I have constructed, and are ready to play:
01. Ankh Sligh to be exact.
On a trade break. Getting ripped blows...
As for the rulings..shrug. Stop giving people rulings if they're clearly never going to listen to you.
On a trade break. Getting ripped blows...
This is a good start.
I think a lot of it is in the delivery. If you go to a sanctioned tournament, observe how the judges deliver rulings. They stop and observe the situation, making sure they have all the info, then they decisively make a ruling. If a lower judge doesn't know, he runs and gets the HJ.
I have had this same problem with my (two) playgroups and I have some successful techniques.
1) Deliver your ruling once (twice maximum) and then drop it. Speak it clearly, simply, and siting the principle behind the ruling. If players learn the prinicipal behind the rule, they will enjoy the game better.
2) If you don't know, say so. But then go home, look it up, and bring in a printout (Rulings forum on this site is good enough). People will look at you weird the first time or two, but the ones who want to know will respect you.
3) If someone is really playing outside the rules, like attacking you with an Akroma with Animate Dead on it, don't take the damage and ignore the player, and say off-hand stuff like, well, Player Q is not really in the game, so... you can only push this only so far, but people will get the point. (footnote below)
4) If someone else is making a ruling, listen attentively and then say, that's right, or no, because of x... Or you might say, your result is right, but it really works because of x. Allow other people to rule too, and be supportive.
5) If a repeated problem comes up, try the printout thing, but one day, say: you need to look up Rule 401b or whatever. If you quote chapter and verse to them, they can't do nothing.
6) It's mostly in your personality. Don't be shrill. They're there to play a game and have fun. To do it right you need to know the rules; be an ambassador to the rules instead of whining with an attitude of why won't you listen to me, guys???!!!
7) Bring in some crazy deck that has a really annoying rules interaction. People will hate you, but they will start to wonder if you know your stuff [only for advanced users ;)].
J
footnote: we used to have a player who would look at the top card(s) of his library during group games. I would just sit there and say, wow, Player Z is getting in some massive cheats. I explain it calmly. Mesmeric Orb would be out and Player Z would say well I am going to mill these six cards anyway so I am going to look at them. I'd say, if someone Naturalizes Mesmeric Orb then you just got in massive cheats. Must be nice, blah blah blah. Then you Naturalize it (or someone does) and then you really rub it in. They say, well, I'll just shuffle then. You say, hmmm that's more massive cheats. Boring. etc. etc. Save being a jerk for when a player's rules cheats is dominating the table, then everyone will side with you.
What's ridiculous is that they've been wrong on rulings, but people will generally be okay with the ruling if it sounds reasonable. And as I mentioned below, they probably aren't paying enough attention when I'm ASKING about a ruling than when I'm clarifying a ruling. Though yesterday was okay as I took it slow when a player had Leonin Arbiter out and his opponent was searching for an eldrazi with Eye of Ugin. I asked stuff like "So that ability costs 7 to activate right?" Then I followed up with "I don't see the 9 mana".
Uh, no, I don't care how people pronounce mana. But Gaea is a proper name. Usually when someone mispronounces a name, they're usually corrected at the store. I was doing the same, but ooh double standard. Hell, even the dealer who comes in from out of town will correct people on pronunciations. I only put the correct pronunciation in my sig because I'd like more people to know about it. Like I said before, people are so used to hearing something incorrect that they think it's true (example: 1 in 5 Americans believed that President Obama was a Muslim, all because of the tabloids! If it's repeated enough people will believe it). After reading my original post again, I don't think it comes off as a big deal and I didn't intend it that way. It's just another example, though less important than the rules, that some people don't want to listen to me.
But you know, I think I am going to stop trying, because really they are bigger jerks than me. They clearly can't distinguish between me asking about a ruling and clarifying a ruling. As for bringing a laptop, I don't feel it's worth it. I do like the printing idea, if only I had a printer that worked. I think it would be more efficient if I just showed the rulings to my actual friends in the group and they'll help spread it.