Innovation is good, but it's also tried and true to not reinvent the wheel when it's not necessary. Some things simply work, and have been proven to do so over time and many iterations. It is VERY risky to veer far off course with something completely new.
The landfills are full of failed card games that invented entirely new ways to do things.
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I'm fairly confident I will think of something to say. Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
Meh.
I know those new TCG fans will bash me for this, but I must say it.
Ever wonder how it so that all those, Hearthstone, FoW, Hex:Shards of Fate, and a gazillion others feel like totally rip-offs of MtG (Calling a creature a Resonator or A Troop, and then writing ***** like Exhaust Target Character: add Sun energy to your energy storage... ugh I can't even take it anymore... ), while at the same time
both NET-Runner and Vampire:The Eternal Struggle (Jyhad) look SO DIFFERENT? The only common thing about them is the TCG selling model and basic stuff like deck, cards in hand and discard. Otherwise: totally unique. I mean, those last two were also created by Richard Garfield, for Cthulhu's sake!
Seriously, when someone has smarts and creativity, he can do multiple new things, all distinct and special, and copycats, are exactly that:
yup, you guessed it: copycats.
And how did Netrunner and Jyhad do? Netrunner was discontinued (the new version is a similar but still different product) and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle isn't in the top 10 selling TCGs (according to ICv2).
Do you think that maybe the case is that Richard Garfield just got it right the first time and that these attempts to make things totally different ultimately failed because they weren't as good as the original idea?
Hearthstone, Force of Will, and Hex (particularly the latter two) are clearly based on Magic. But Hex and Force of Will both clearly took a look at Magic and thought to themselves: "This works. This is cool. How can we improve it?" Hex used the digital platform to allow it to do things that weren't possible in physical Magic, such as shuffling cards into your opponent's library or having cards with more than 2 sides. Force of Will took note of the fact that the most complained about part of Magic's gameplay (i.e. we're not counting price as it's not a part of the gameplay) was mana screw. So they set up a game that had a very similar resource system but got rid of the feel-bads of having to mulligan down to 4 just to find a land. These may be "copycats" but I think they made some legitimate strives to improve things that Wizards of the Coast is either unable or unwilling to do.
Another thing to note. TCGs are complex. Learning a whole new system can take a while. But if it's similar to a system you already know, it's much easier to jump right in. If you're from a Magic background, learning Force of Will is significantly faster and thus easier to get into. A big part of the reason I got into it was BECAUSE it was similar to Magic but it sounded like it had worked to improve some of the things I didn't like about Magic.
And how did Netrunner and Jyhad do? Netrunner was discontinued (the new version is a similar but still different product) and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle isn't in the top 10 selling TCGs (according to ICv2).
V:TES died in 2010 fyi. The game was specifically multiplayer focused, which probably hurt it more than anything conaidering it's intended audience.
The Big Three CCGs all play completely different, putting a little more than a small dent in your theory. The success of a game seems to have little to do with quality and originality, and FAR more with how many early adopters you can get.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
And how did Netrunner and Jyhad do? Netrunner was discontinued (the new version is a similar but still different product) and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle isn't in the top 10 selling TCGs (according to ICv2).
V:TES died in 2010 fyi. The game was specifically multiplayer focused, which probably hurt it more than anything conaidering it's intended audience.
Well, it did get some expansions later. But looking closer, those expansions were just PDFs so it is fair to say it "died" in 2010. Though if anything that just reinforces my point.
The Big Three CCGs all play completely different, putting a little more than a small dent in your theory. The success of a game seems to have little to do with quality and originality, and FAR more with how many early adopters you can get.
Pokemon, despite a number of differences, still has a fair amount in common with Magic. I definitely would not say it plays "completely different." Yu-Gi-Oh is quite different, though, which is funny because its original usage in the Yu-Gi-Oh comic was meant to be a reference to Magic.
Though the other two of the Big Three also were based on extremely popular franchises. You could've done those games however you wanted and they would've gotten popular. If they had been released exactly as they were but without the name recognition, they almost certainly wouldn't have gotten anywhere. Indeed, Force of Will is the only one of the current top 10 selling collectible games (Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Force of Will, HeroClix, Cardfight!! Vanguard, Dice Masters, D&D Fantasy Miniatures, Pathfinder Battles, Dragon Ball Z TCG) that isn't based on some pre-existing popular franchise, except for maybe Cardfight (as the game and anime premiered around the same time rather than the anime premiering and then later on the TCG getting made).
In all fairness, everything can be compared, so no two things are "completely different." It was hyperbole on my part, a bad habit I need to work on fixing.
The thing about V:TES was just an fyi. Not a counter to your point. Another fyi though, a tcg is said to be dead if the company with the rights to produce it no longer do. With the high failure rate in the industry it's a useful word to describe if a game is still being made, since it's simple, quick, and intuitive.
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My theory is that the number of early adopters for a game is the primary factor for success. Every game currently on the top ten (excluding non-ccgs which I can't speak for) had strong support from release, while other games that didn't (Adventure Time Card Wars anyone?) fell off right after the initial interest faded.
How games got that support is another thing. Hearthstone made a super simple game and marketed it very well. Also Blizzard. It's Blizzard. Pokemon, DBZ, and Yugioh got there through the popularity of their source material AND the solidness of the mechanics of their games. You'll notice that the ccgs of other popular media never quite got there, and this can be attributed to either clunky and confusing design or a lack of marketing.
FOW probably got popular initially because people just already knew how to play, I agree with you on that, but it's overall success I believe stems from that early support, not because it's mechanics are so similar to magic's.
Ultimatally people just want to to play, and that means playing the games other's play.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
The game pretty much died entirely at my store unfortunately We had a very strong community when the game first released here in the US but most people just dumped it for whatever reason. A friend and I still have a somewhat up-to-date list, but we never get much of a chance to use them unless we're playing against each other during game night or whatever.
The game is still a ton of fun I think, and I love the art style, but there's not much potential to play in my area.
The game pretty much died entirely at my store unfortunately We had a very strong community when the game first released here in the US but most people just dumped it for whatever reason. A friend and I still have a somewhat up-to-date list, but we never get much of a chance to use them unless we're playing against each other during game night or whatever.
The game is still a ton of fun I think, and I love the art style, but there's not much potential to play in my area.
My game store is basically selling off their cards in bulk for it and as much as I tried to stir the waters for the game it just never took off. I'm feeling bad for it because they just released a new promo set that features Valkyria Chronicles. I want to get it just for collectors sake as that was one of the better games for PS3.
I so wanted the game to supplant Yu Gi Oh or at least challenge Pokemon.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The game pretty much died entirely at my store unfortunately We had a very strong community when the game first released here in the US but most people just dumped it for whatever reason. A friend and I still have a somewhat up-to-date list, but we never get much of a chance to use them unless we're playing against each other during game night or whatever.
The game is still a ton of fun I think, and I love the art style, but there's not much potential to play in my area.
My game store is basically selling off their cards in bulk for it and as much as I tried to stir the waters for the game it just never took off. I'm feeling bad for it because they just released a new promo set that features Valkyria Chronicles. I want to get it just for collectors sake as that was one of the better games for PS3.
I so wanted the game to supplant Yu Gi Oh or at least challenge Pokemon.
Its about the same situation for my shop, yeah.
I definitely agree with your last point. While I don't believe the game had a chance of challenging Pokemon, I would have loved for this to take YGO's spot in the "big 3" at some point, but I doubt that'll happen.
The game has potential, and there's obviously a desire from TCG players for something new that's not magic, but still has that Magic flavor. It's just unfortunate that that Force of Will is fumbling so hard and losing all their momentum.
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My decks
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
The game died at my locals too. The power creep was simply too strong. You needed to build a new deck every release.
After my friend ran Reflect/Refrain he'd about had it with Force of Will and moved onto other Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games that him and I still play such as Cardfight!! Vanguard (yes we still have a locals for this game), Dragon Ball Z TCG (Panini America), Pokémon, and MTG where we're looking to build our EDH decks with Braids, Conjurer Adept and Sen Triplets as our Generals.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
It's funny, I've heard nothing about FoW here (in the Japanese countryside) until recently. The owner of my local shop messaged me a few days ago and asked if I'd teach him how to play this Friday. He has FoW product arriving next week for the first time! It looks like all of the FoW stuff he has currently is English, but I'm not sure if he's stocking English, Japanese or both. English cards should be easy enough for me, but I hope I can explain it well enough to get across to someone who's English isn't so great. I'm not sure if he's planning to go all in and run tournaments or just buying some boxes for the shop and waiting to see if any of his regulars are interested. I'm curious to watch how this unfolds.
I spent my entire pre release baffled at how they could print a card like Reflect/Refrain. I was able to make some crazy tempo plays with Slyvanas and being on the play and made the finals but that wasn't on my mind. The card is just so crazy.
I spent my entire pre release baffled at how they could print a card like Reflect/Refrain. I was able to make some crazy tempo plays with Slyvanas and being on the play and made the finals but that wasn't on my mind. The card is just so crazy.
I don't think them printing Reflect/Refrain is any more inconceivable than Wizards of the Coast printing Jace, the Mind Sculptor. That said, it was rather crazy and they finally banned it.
I'm having trouble getting a read on whether it's gaining popularity or not. Some people here have said it's less popular at their stores but that's not the big picture, unfortunately. Few people play it in my area but not that's not a decrease or anything. A number of stores I've gone to PPTQs for have been selling it and have events scheduled, so I don't know. It's still #4 on ICv2 but there's such a big gap between #1-3 and everything else that it's hard to really tell if it's moving up or down.
I've only really heard of this from a friend of mine. It seems interesting enough, and I've considered looking into getting some preconstructed decks to try it, but it's really hard to find much motivation for another card game. It's mostly the cost, though time is somewhat of a factor too. I do wish that the US (and probably the broader market outside of Japan, though I really only have an idea on US/Japan) was a bit kinder to new products like this though. I think that there is a lot of identification being done with card games though, which is part of the issue.
Jace is in your deck. Reflect/Refrain is playable always. I am not going to go in on which was more powerful in their respective environments but I feel that's a major difference already. The game doesn't just have a power creep problem, being on the play is so advantageous; competitive is a joke.
Jace is in your deck. Reflect/Refrain is playable always. I am not going to go in on which was more powerful in their respective environments but I feel that's a major difference already.
The point is, it's still an astoundingly powerful card that you generally need a very good reason to not be playing. I don't find R/R any more baffling than Jace or any other OP card that WOTC has printed.
The game doesn't just have a power creep problem, being on the play is so advantageous; competitive is a joke.
If anything I think the game has actually been toning down the power level of cards a little as of late. I really don't see it as power creeping any more than Magic does.
And while being on the play is advantageous... it also is in Magic. Heck, it actually goes a little farther than Magic in trying to mitigate it by adding in that Energize ability on some of the new Rulers.
I'm still hoping that maybe it has more popularity in the Schaumburg area closer to Chicago, where I'm moving to soon. The places I've traveled to locally have given up the game and mass sold them to... someplace. I'm not actually sure where, but I'm definitely interested in finding out what shop bought up the card pool.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I haven't played since R/R but being on the play is definitely way stronger in FoW than in Magic. It's not even close which I felt there was no reason to mention it. R/R is literally like a commander card that is used every game when Jace the Mind Sculptor is in your 60, it is definitely different where one card is used right away every game and another requires drawing it and getting the mana.
The landfills are full of failed card games that invented entirely new ways to do things.
Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
Sign & Share Petition To Fix MTG: Arena's Economy: https://goo.gl/z8fop8
Do you think that maybe the case is that Richard Garfield just got it right the first time and that these attempts to make things totally different ultimately failed because they weren't as good as the original idea?
Hearthstone, Force of Will, and Hex (particularly the latter two) are clearly based on Magic. But Hex and Force of Will both clearly took a look at Magic and thought to themselves: "This works. This is cool. How can we improve it?" Hex used the digital platform to allow it to do things that weren't possible in physical Magic, such as shuffling cards into your opponent's library or having cards with more than 2 sides. Force of Will took note of the fact that the most complained about part of Magic's gameplay (i.e. we're not counting price as it's not a part of the gameplay) was mana screw. So they set up a game that had a very similar resource system but got rid of the feel-bads of having to mulligan down to 4 just to find a land. These may be "copycats" but I think they made some legitimate strives to improve things that Wizards of the Coast is either unable or unwilling to do.
Another thing to note. TCGs are complex. Learning a whole new system can take a while. But if it's similar to a system you already know, it's much easier to jump right in. If you're from a Magic background, learning Force of Will is significantly faster and thus easier to get into. A big part of the reason I got into it was BECAUSE it was similar to Magic but it sounded like it had worked to improve some of the things I didn't like about Magic.
V:TES died in 2010 fyi. The game was specifically multiplayer focused, which probably hurt it more than anything conaidering it's intended audience.
The Big Three CCGs all play completely different, putting a little more than a small dent in your theory. The success of a game seems to have little to do with quality and originality, and FAR more with how many early adopters you can get.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
Sign & Share Petition To Fix MTG: Arena's Economy: https://goo.gl/z8fop8
Pokemon, despite a number of differences, still has a fair amount in common with Magic. I definitely would not say it plays "completely different." Yu-Gi-Oh is quite different, though, which is funny because its original usage in the Yu-Gi-Oh comic was meant to be a reference to Magic.
Though the other two of the Big Three also were based on extremely popular franchises. You could've done those games however you wanted and they would've gotten popular. If they had been released exactly as they were but without the name recognition, they almost certainly wouldn't have gotten anywhere. Indeed, Force of Will is the only one of the current top 10 selling collectible games (Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Force of Will, HeroClix, Cardfight!! Vanguard, Dice Masters, D&D Fantasy Miniatures, Pathfinder Battles, Dragon Ball Z TCG) that isn't based on some pre-existing popular franchise, except for maybe Cardfight (as the game and anime premiered around the same time rather than the anime premiering and then later on the TCG getting made).
So I do think my claim stands.
The thing about V:TES was just an fyi. Not a counter to your point. Another fyi though, a tcg is said to be dead if the company with the rights to produce it no longer do. With the high failure rate in the industry it's a useful word to describe if a game is still being made, since it's simple, quick, and intuitive.
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My theory is that the number of early adopters for a game is the primary factor for success. Every game currently on the top ten (excluding non-ccgs which I can't speak for) had strong support from release, while other games that didn't (Adventure Time Card Wars anyone?) fell off right after the initial interest faded.
How games got that support is another thing. Hearthstone made a super simple game and marketed it very well. Also Blizzard. It's Blizzard. Pokemon, DBZ, and Yugioh got there through the popularity of their source material AND the solidness of the mechanics of their games. You'll notice that the ccgs of other popular media never quite got there, and this can be attributed to either clunky and confusing design or a lack of marketing.
FOW probably got popular initially because people just already knew how to play, I agree with you on that, but it's overall success I believe stems from that early support, not because it's mechanics are so similar to magic's.
Ultimatally people just want to to play, and that means playing the games other's play.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
The game is still a ton of fun I think, and I love the art style, but there's not much potential to play in my area.
WB Eldrazi Processors BW
Legacy:
WUBRGLandless DredgeGRBUW
EDH:
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothGB
WUBrago, King Eternal (Budget!)UW
My game store is basically selling off their cards in bulk for it and as much as I tried to stir the waters for the game it just never took off. I'm feeling bad for it because they just released a new promo set that features Valkyria Chronicles. I want to get it just for collectors sake as that was one of the better games for PS3.
I so wanted the game to supplant Yu Gi Oh or at least challenge Pokemon.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Its about the same situation for my shop, yeah.
I definitely agree with your last point. While I don't believe the game had a chance of challenging Pokemon, I would have loved for this to take YGO's spot in the "big 3" at some point, but I doubt that'll happen.
WB Eldrazi Processors BW
Legacy:
WUBRGLandless DredgeGRBUW
EDH:
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothGB
WUBrago, King Eternal (Budget!)UW
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
I'm having trouble getting a read on whether it's gaining popularity or not. Some people here have said it's less popular at their stores but that's not the big picture, unfortunately. Few people play it in my area but not that's not a decrease or anything. A number of stores I've gone to PPTQs for have been selling it and have events scheduled, so I don't know. It's still #4 on ICv2 but there's such a big gap between #1-3 and everything else that it's hard to really tell if it's moving up or down.
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
If anything I think the game has actually been toning down the power level of cards a little as of late. I really don't see it as power creeping any more than Magic does.
And while being on the play is advantageous... it also is in Magic. Heck, it actually goes a little farther than Magic in trying to mitigate it by adding in that Energize ability on some of the new Rulers.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao