Really, it just depends on what you like. Zelda is in large part a puzzle-solving game. Dare I even mention the water temple(s)? Some people like that, some don't. Part of the appeal of the zelda games comes from the fact that after a certain point, you are free to explore the world, so to speak, and just go around climbing on houses and killing whatever, but you also usually have a pretty good idea of what you need to do next... it's a good combination of linear and free-form gameplay.
Of course, RPGs in general are a bit different from Zelda. Most have some kind of stats to level up, and multiple characters or party members at once. This offers a kind of freedom in that you can pick a certain character that you like and focus mainly on improving them, if you so wish; you aren't stuck with just one style of play. RPGs can also vary with regards to the combat system. Some are turn based, with each character performing an action in sequence, while some are time based, usually with a "ready" meter, meaning some characters attack more quickly than others.
One of my absolute favorite games for the 'cube was Tales of Symphonia. It's a party-based RPG like that. I will admit that for me, half the fun of RPGs is leveling profusely at opportune moments, so that I am "ahead" of the game and can run around whomping on monsters with abandon. To me, building and advancing the character takes first priority, and story second. That's just my style of play, some people are completely the opposite. I think you just have to try a few RPGs for yourself and see what speaks to you. Try a few different kinds, perhaps a "Zelda"-esque game, perhaps a party-based game, and so on.
Edit: Ah, I slightly misunderstood what you were trying to do. I recommend forcing the player to level up, if possible. A "base" or waiting area for the players is usually a very good idea in this kind of game. Let the player choose when they are ready to "go on an adventure". Create a section of level that, once the players run through it, resets itself if they haven't reached a certain "level" or preparedness, sending them back to the waiting area, and allows them to proceed to the next section of game once they have a certain amount of experience, or have defeated the "Boss" of that area. The trick is getting the difficulty right, so it's actually challenging but not impossible.
I think you've taken on a very difficult challenge, Starr. It's like trying to write prose in both 1st-person and 3rd-person perspective. It's very difficult to combine the two in an effective way.
If you don't care about supporting multiplayer like Starcraft does, one possibility would be to expand upon the "Hero" mechanic Wacraft III used. Have an RTS foundation of developing your 'civilization' or whatnot, but instead of just having a hero unit that can do special things on the map, you could effectively pause the RTS aspect of the game while you switch into RPG "mode" with an individual or small band of units. These units would start out as generic just like any other churned out, but going on quests would "level up" those units and create heroes and such which would then be relevant when switching back to RTS mode. This would literally require the game to seamlessly incorporate two engines; the benefit would be a potentially very powerful ability to create a unique gameplay experiece; the cost would be inability to provide anywhere near the level of depth or quality a game that focuses on one engine can provide.
Another possibility is the flip side: focus on a 1st-person RPG experience while the environment is a pseudo RTS that runs on autopilot but that you can influence with your player's actions. For example: in Diablo II, Act 5, the maps simulate a siege where there are friendly units running around attacking enemies along with you. What if you could not only control those units but give them equipment you find, effect the town that produces them by giving them gold from your adventures or protecting them from monsters at previous points the game, etc.?
Some general ideas to flesh this out: You find yourself in the middle of a war-torn land fending off invaders. At any given time, you could choose to protect small villages from raiders, fight off sieges on larger towns, confront the main enemy army head-on, or even go on unrelated quests that simply get you loot and make you stronger. Every choice has a reward and a cost, making certain future tasks easier and other harder (say, the longer you ignore raiders on small towns the less they are able to suport the larger war effort and the more difficult it will be for you when you confront the main army, but if you spend too much time defending small villages the larger towns are more likely to fall. Further, the best way to make yourself more powerful is to go on quests because it's the only way to find the best items and earn the most money, but while you're doing that the overall state of the country is weakening).
The overall idea here is that the elements you normally micromanage in an RTS - resource gathering, technological advances, conflicts between units - are instead controlled by the computer and you have the ability to alter how the computer runs it by your own choices. For example, let's say a certain town specializes in a certain technology. By completing a quest for that town you improve that town's ability to advance technology, which improves the overall strategic advantage of the army. But while completing that quest the army is likely losing raw numbers beause you're not at the battle directly helping them. And so on.
*****
Those are just some thoughts. If I were to distill what I think are the most important elements of a game, I'd say: elegance and replayability. Elegance being the balance between simplicity of gameplay while providing depth. Replayability being how fun is it to continue playing after you've beaten it, or pick the game back up and play it after you haven't played in a while.
Starr: If you're looking for a strategy game with RPG elements, I suggest the Final Fantasy Tactics series. If you're looking for an RPG with strategy elements, the Persona series is good.
For old school goodness, you can't go wrong with Chrono Trigger, and the underappreciated Chrono Cross.
For PC games, Warcraft III and Starcraft are good choices for strategy. For RPG, you can't get any more awesome than Knights of the Old Republic.
Other randomly fun PC games: Braid, Psychonauts, Left 4 Dead, and if you want to have a dash of RPG in your FPS, I suggest Bioshock and/or Fallout 3.
Wow, already feeling like I have too big a list of comments to reply to. ;p
Thanks for the big welcomes, group. 'S a nice thing to walk back into.
*waves at Zazzy (nice) and Itinerant Soldier*
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Not only a few pages back... As long as they're all careful with the glomping. I don't want to have to find the old implements of Coffeehouse torture in order to dole out punishment for a bruised Mamelon.
And I know you would.
Quote from Kraj »
Geez, when it rains it pours. Hunter, Photon, Crimson (sorry, you'll always be the Avatar to me ), Mamsies. It's like a flashback sequence!
Only hopefully without unpleasant hallucinogenic-y side effects. Long time no see, Greg. Although I think I saw you on Facebook a couple of times.
Come to think of, I dunno who all from here would know my Facebook.
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Well butter my butt and call me a biscuit, if it isn't our old friend.
*blinks* If you insist. Does it matter to you which order I do it it?
I couldn't stop watching that animation. Now I'm a little sad it's gone, hee.
Also - grr, where were you when I tried to start a talk about interfaith stuff and atheism/agnosticism here in Debate that one time?
Quote from Photon »
Maybe next time I disappear and then return, I'll come back with hooters and see how you respond, mister.
Hooters, my ass.
Hm. I guess that could be it.
That sounds like a horrible idea for me, as I am much more competitive at sex than I am at Magic.
Well if you're going to be good at something ... ;p
By the way, I had played Cube before. It was pretty fun actually. I did it over MWS, and we drafted cards like Ancestral Recall. Ha. Okay, that was crazyish.
I think he still won that one. Not sure.
Which brings me right back to competition and sex.
Quote from SnoopDoggAtog »
Wow, Mamelon welcome back!
Hey, Starr! Howzit goin' these days?
I've been a lot more into D&D and tabletopping (ha) lately as opposed to Magic. What have you all been up to anymore?
As for what makes an RPG stand out - I think aesthetic counts for a whole lot, only it's sort of in an intangible way, because there's much subjectivity to it. A game can have a really consistent, well constructed and deep style and feel to it, and that can make the difference even when all else is equal.
Play mechanics that help a feeling of interactivity is big and I think it's part of the style, too. If the mechanics feel immersive it adds to a game in multiple ways, by creating flair and being fun to use.
People have different tastes and levels of tolerance for difficulty and challenge, but I think it's easy to agree that challenges should have the effect of being exciting or thought-provoking rather than being annoying with hindrances that are otherwise pointless. If a section of a game requires skill and preparation, this is much better than if success feels random and like you have no control in achieving it.
I personally like games to have an element of breadth, where you can go in more than one direction at once or choose from multiple storytelling paths. This can mean a game with a story that is nonlinear to an extent, or a game that has a few different ways of playing, such as some games which let you do things like make choices in running a kingdom or raise animals or something in addition to completing the game's central and story-related tasks.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Also - grr, where were you when I tried to start a talk about interfaith stuff and atheism/agnosticism here in Debate that one time?
During the time you were here, I hadn't solidified my position nearly as much as I have now. Simply put, the issue wasn't something I spent a whole lot of time thinking about. Several months ago, I got into the "new atheist" movement. I can't remember what sparked it, honestly, other than perhaps joining Reddit. Now I'm about as hardcore atheist as it gets, and I'm subscribed to the atheist subreddit and Pharyngula (P. Z.'s blog). My current favorite hero is Neil Degrasse Tyson, although I am pretty fond of P. Z. Meyers as well. The four horsemen (Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens) are cool, but Tyson just seems to have a buoyancy and charisma that fascinates me. He reminds me of Carl Sagan, in a way...who is another favorite of mine.
Hi Mamelon!!!! (I would have greeted you earlier, but I didn't realize you had posted until 5 pages later and I didn't know if you'd come back for sure ;).)
I had a tour/job interview this morning. An extremely taxing 4 AM interview with UPS. The job seems even more taxing, constant heavy lifting and carrying, and I'm not 100% sure my tiny bod could handle it. But I think I have good odds of getting a job. My uncle works in upper-management at the storehouse and told me they hire the majority of people who apply, especially for the early morning job. Plus my interviewer knew him, so that's nearly always a plus. I'll probably take the job if I get it, even though it would be challenging, because its all about getting any paycheck I can right now. Additionally, the money they give toward college could come in very handy and they promote from within the company in 99% of cases, so I may only have to work a difficult job for a month or two.
Has anyone else ever lost their magic play group :(? Sad stuff. My current attempt at reclaiming my lost magic playing is to play test proxy decks for the new standard against each other when I'm managing both sides. Magic is not as fun when there are almost no unknowns :-/.
Starr, IMO, RPG's and RTS's pretty much have to be separated because of how I play and view them. One has a much higher importance upon the individual while the other puts an importance on the whole. Kinda a communism v. capitalism dichotomy here.
I haven't played a lot of non-MMO PC games so I can only really say what sparks my interest in a console RPG and what doesn't. What irks me is stuff that one could only find through insane exploration. If you ever played Star Ocean on the PS1 you'll know what I'm talking about with the hidden shop. Basically, it's out in the middle of nowhere, you get no hints as to its location, and where it is is one of the last places you would look. I'm not saying make every location obvious... but at least give me an idea where I'm going/looking. I know this has been an issue in a few modern RPG's as well from what I've seen.
RTS-wise... well I don't really play any of these but that's because at the heart of all the freedom in the battles themselves the march from scenario to scenario has ALWAYS felt very linear. Sure, what you do within the scenario may decide what the next scenario is like but what I really crave to see for once is the ability to have two battles going at once - One where you are and another simming while you're not there with the ability to switch between both battles in real time with your priority affecting what happens in the overall setting. Hell the ability to leave the battle when you feel it can take care of itself and do some more traditional RPG-like things (buy items, explore the overworld, achieve side objectives) would be ideal. I dunno if this has been done before and I'm sure it'd be VERY complicated to do but it does feel more realistic to me and it is after all just my ideal of RTS games.
I can't really think of any other complaints/comments since at this moment I don't even have a console myself anymore (though I should be getting one soon). But I can tell you some generic things that should be in all games (though these should be obvious).
-The storyline can't be either a gimme or a gimmick to the game. DO NOT FORSAKE IT!
-Make sure the controls and unique things of the game aren't really complicated. Overcomplicating things has been the doom of many things...
-Make sure the unique thing isn't just a tweak on an old thing... UNLESS your object is just to create a more perfect version of an old game.
-If possible, at least for RTS games, don't overlook an option of co-op (to go with a versus option). Teamwork can be much harder to achieve but it does add some enjoyable difficulty in with the game.
Otherwise I think you nailed the more generic complaints (button mashing, searching a dungeon for one key item, etc).
EDIT: @Mr. Stuff: Gah, Richard Dawkins makes the atheist community look stupid. The equivalent of ... well, of people who makes other communities look stupid.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Insensitive and with no patience for religion, perhaps, but not stupid. If you're looking for stupid, though, Ray Comfort would be right up your alley. That guy...
I'll respond in a bit. I'm tired right now... my sleep schedule's all screwed up, and it's nearly 6:00am. 'Night everybody.
Insensitive and with no patience for religion, perhaps, but not stupid. If you're looking for stupid, though, Ray Comfort would be right up your alley. That guy...
I'll respond in a bit. I'm tired right now... my sleep schedule's all screwed up, and it's nearly 6:00am. 'Night everybody.
No, I mean that as an icon of atheists all over the world, he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Not as much as he needs to. Insensitivity isn't disconnected either, since it makes for terrible exchanges and things being generally poorly thought out and considered. Looking/being stupid is, like, insensitivity's illicit mistress. Srsly.
Not quite the level of the way Fred Phelps is for Christians, but then again that's quite a bar to reach.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Harris is the quickest on his feet and most articulate of the bunch, if you ask me, but I still wouldn't call Dawkins "stupid". Prone to more emotional arguments than he should be, I'll buy. Sometimes he just comes across as insulting, and other times he'll come up with something brilliant. The fossils are where he's really got it going on, so to speak. It's his area of expertise.
Harris is the quickest on his feet and most articulate of the bunch, if you ask me, but I still wouldn't call Dawkins "stupid". Prone to more emotional arguments than he should be, I'll buy. Sometimes he just comes across as insulting, and other times he'll come up with something brilliant. The fossils are where he's really got it going on, so to speak. It's his area of expertise.
Just for kicks, before I sleep:
I didn't mean that he was a stupid person so much that he makes the publically viewed "atheist point of view" suspect because he defends it with kind of bad arguments (I'm sure there are good arguments, too, of course).
For instance, almost any argument to do with evolution and religion is off base. While many fundamentalists believe in a literal-historical view of the story of Genesis, it's not even the orthodox view or likely to be the most popular view of Christians worldwide. It's basically incidental to the religion's foundations.
It's the flip-side of anthropic principle cases a la Way of the Master, like the argument that since a banana has a shape that is easy for a human hand to hold, it must have been designed by an intelligent being to be eaten by humans.
Although, I wish it weren't so easy for folks to stereotype large groups based on the behavior of a small number of people.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Genesis being literal is incidental...? Hehe, my dear, I think you underestimate just how much hold fundamentalist Christianity has in America. Senators have been caught making arguments based on the fact that the earth is 6000 years old. Southern states like Texas and Louisiana are being coerced into pushing creationism in schools, and Texas specifically has powerful fundamentalist Christian leaders on it's friggin' school boards. One of them wants to revise history textbooks to include more information about the importance of the bible throughout American history. Texas sets the textbook standard for a large part of America; it's one of the handful of major players in the textbook industry. You see where this is going? On the other side, you've got mega-popular Muslim leaders coming out and denouncing evolution, saying it's all a bunch of garbage. You've even got people like this guy. Scary. I've had people on this very forum, not naming names, tell me that nothing is decided yet and evolution is still a theory.
May I unintentionally circumvent and butt in on the discussion here?
While the large part of the conversation up until now has been straight up discourse on who best represents the religion-less and how to best go about it, the last comment seems to have taken a differing tone. And hence, why I butt-in.
Stuff: While I don't disagree with the points made, there is one MAJOR thing to understand about your points that is the underlying cause of the entire problem. And that is religion, while used as the basis for arguement, is ONLY being used as means to gain power in a more political sense. It's twisted facts from and about the bible (among other holy books) that causes the massive change in stance between the christian north and the fundamentalist south. Using those so-called facts and then getting angrily swept up in them is usually how these things don't get questioned - because the start of the argument is good the rest that follows must also be true - even leaps of faith (yay logical fallacies).
I very much support atheists but my only point is not to confuse religion here for politics. Because at the end of the day its all about who looks best and who's in control of whom.
It's often very difficult to separate those out, though. Religion is a belief system; It's not just oneself, but the people around you, and it tells you how to live your life, what to think on questions of morals, and etc. In large part this is why I attack the holy book over any individual believer, for it is the root of the problem, as it were.
It's not as though the preacher is going "haha, I don't believe this crap, but it's an awesome way to make lots of money and gain power". Perhaps some are, but I believe the majority genuinely feel they are doing the right thing by trying to spread and privilege their belief system. That's why the belief system's got to go, because it's flat out scientifically and morally untenable and unhealthy for society.
Starr: If you're looking for a strategy game with RPG elements, I suggest the Final Fantasy Tactics series. If you're looking for an RPG with strategy elements, the Persona series is good.
For old school goodness, you can't go wrong with Chrono Trigger, and the underappreciated Chrono Cross.
For PC games, Warcraft III and Starcraft are good choices for strategy. For RPG, you can't get any more awesome than Knights of the Old Republic.
Other randomly fun PC games: Braid, Psychonauts, Left 4 Dead, and if you want to have a dash of RPG in your FPS, I suggest Bioshock and/or Fallout 3.
Wow, you should add Prototype and Dawn of War II. That's my favorite as of now.
Im planning to replace my 9500Gt this Xmas.. Now I wonder what would it feel like playing with a GTX 275 and up =)
Zazzy, it might be a good idea if you clarified who "her" is We do have a few females in here
But... regardless... yes, it's my birthday today... I like how facebook and various messaging services on various organizations remember that my birthday is today It's nice to come into work, especially when feeling a bit down, that people are remembering my birthday today I wonder if anyone at work will remember
It's a little depressing having my birthday be on a day I have to work, and look for a new job... but hey, I'm going to have an awesome party on Saturday, so I guess I just need to hang on to that thought
Thanks for the b-day wishes to those who did, and will...
But... regardless... yes, it's my birthday today... I like how facebook and various messaging services on various organizations remember that my birthday is today It's nice to come into work, especially when feeling a bit down, that people are remembering my birthday today I wonder if anyone at work will remember
It's a little depressing having my birthday be on a day I have to work, and look for a new job... but hey, I'm going to have an awesome party on Saturday, so I guess I just need to hang on to that thought
Oh, I know how you feel about working on your birthday.
That's right. Not incidental to many peoples' eyes, but that's not what I said. I said it was incidental to the validity, or lack thereof, of the Christian religion. Or any religion.
If an evolutionary model of the development of life is true, it is no real way a threat to any religion's premises. I am perfectly aware of the controversy, but this is a matter between different groups of people - it's ultimately not relevant to the theism debate. People think it is, but it's not.
When it comes to Dawkins, I personally don't find it hard to understand the motives for how he acts, but it goes both ways. It always does. If it's not okay for atheists to be mistreated and for bad reasoning to come from Christian figures, then it's not okay for someone like Dawkins to wig out or say fossils disprove religion. At the very least, it just shows that the people in the debate don't know what they're really debating.
The scholarship about this, on both sides, needs to be better than it is.
It's not as though the preacher is going "haha, I don't believe this crap, but it's an awesome way to make lots of money and gain power". Perhaps some are, but I believe the majority genuinely feel they are doing the right thing by trying to spread and privilege their belief system. That's why the belief system's got to go, because it's flat out scientifically and morally untenable and unhealthy for society.
The christian belief system? It's actually not too shabby as moralities go, and scientifically it's perfectly unobjectionable.
Fundamentalism is untenable, however, and that is not the same thing.
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Ah, the Coffeehouse. It's like the Debate forum except people actually debate here.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
As an Agnostic, I can't say one way or another about Atheism. But it is very misunderstood. A lot of people think it's belief in nothing. As I tried to explain to my mom, Atheism is belief that a faith-based life is misled. Belief in nothing is Nihilism, not Atheism.
Happy happy birthday, Danica, I know you'll make it awesome somehow
I do have to wonder though, at what it is that you consider Faith, to most people faith is just "belief without the need of proof or logic" but isnt that just the same a belief itself? i mean there's a lot of things in this life that cannot be proven or that are illogical in a sense yet we believe in them or the same, atheism in a way follows this, you cannot really prove that a faith based life is misled since you would first have to either eradicate religion as a whole in order to show that in contrast people are happier then, AND you would have to ensure that the person living a misled life is not happy with said life and then becomes happy with the sudden absence of the religion variable...
actually theres more to say but god i really dont like getting involved in religion topics... it just never ends well
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Of course, RPGs in general are a bit different from Zelda. Most have some kind of stats to level up, and multiple characters or party members at once. This offers a kind of freedom in that you can pick a certain character that you like and focus mainly on improving them, if you so wish; you aren't stuck with just one style of play. RPGs can also vary with regards to the combat system. Some are turn based, with each character performing an action in sequence, while some are time based, usually with a "ready" meter, meaning some characters attack more quickly than others.
One of my absolute favorite games for the 'cube was Tales of Symphonia. It's a party-based RPG like that. I will admit that for me, half the fun of RPGs is leveling profusely at opportune moments, so that I am "ahead" of the game and can run around whomping on monsters with abandon. To me, building and advancing the character takes first priority, and story second. That's just my style of play, some people are completely the opposite. I think you just have to try a few RPGs for yourself and see what speaks to you. Try a few different kinds, perhaps a "Zelda"-esque game, perhaps a party-based game, and so on.
Edit: Ah, I slightly misunderstood what you were trying to do. I recommend forcing the player to level up, if possible. A "base" or waiting area for the players is usually a very good idea in this kind of game. Let the player choose when they are ready to "go on an adventure". Create a section of level that, once the players run through it, resets itself if they haven't reached a certain "level" or preparedness, sending them back to the waiting area, and allows them to proceed to the next section of game once they have a certain amount of experience, or have defeated the "Boss" of that area. The trick is getting the difficulty right, so it's actually challenging but not impossible.
If you don't care about supporting multiplayer like Starcraft does, one possibility would be to expand upon the "Hero" mechanic Wacraft III used. Have an RTS foundation of developing your 'civilization' or whatnot, but instead of just having a hero unit that can do special things on the map, you could effectively pause the RTS aspect of the game while you switch into RPG "mode" with an individual or small band of units. These units would start out as generic just like any other churned out, but going on quests would "level up" those units and create heroes and such which would then be relevant when switching back to RTS mode. This would literally require the game to seamlessly incorporate two engines; the benefit would be a potentially very powerful ability to create a unique gameplay experiece; the cost would be inability to provide anywhere near the level of depth or quality a game that focuses on one engine can provide.
Another possibility is the flip side: focus on a 1st-person RPG experience while the environment is a pseudo RTS that runs on autopilot but that you can influence with your player's actions. For example: in Diablo II, Act 5, the maps simulate a siege where there are friendly units running around attacking enemies along with you. What if you could not only control those units but give them equipment you find, effect the town that produces them by giving them gold from your adventures or protecting them from monsters at previous points the game, etc.?
Some general ideas to flesh this out: You find yourself in the middle of a war-torn land fending off invaders. At any given time, you could choose to protect small villages from raiders, fight off sieges on larger towns, confront the main enemy army head-on, or even go on unrelated quests that simply get you loot and make you stronger. Every choice has a reward and a cost, making certain future tasks easier and other harder (say, the longer you ignore raiders on small towns the less they are able to suport the larger war effort and the more difficult it will be for you when you confront the main army, but if you spend too much time defending small villages the larger towns are more likely to fall. Further, the best way to make yourself more powerful is to go on quests because it's the only way to find the best items and earn the most money, but while you're doing that the overall state of the country is weakening).
The overall idea here is that the elements you normally micromanage in an RTS - resource gathering, technological advances, conflicts between units - are instead controlled by the computer and you have the ability to alter how the computer runs it by your own choices. For example, let's say a certain town specializes in a certain technology. By completing a quest for that town you improve that town's ability to advance technology, which improves the overall strategic advantage of the army. But while completing that quest the army is likely losing raw numbers beause you're not at the battle directly helping them. And so on.
*****
Those are just some thoughts. If I were to distill what I think are the most important elements of a game, I'd say: elegance and replayability. Elegance being the balance between simplicity of gameplay while providing depth. Replayability being how fun is it to continue playing after you've beaten it, or pick the game back up and play it after you haven't played in a while.
Hope that helps.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
For old school goodness, you can't go wrong with Chrono Trigger, and the underappreciated Chrono Cross.
For PC games, Warcraft III and Starcraft are good choices for strategy. For RPG, you can't get any more awesome than Knights of the Old Republic.
Other randomly fun PC games: Braid, Psychonauts, Left 4 Dead, and if you want to have a dash of RPG in your FPS, I suggest Bioshock and/or Fallout 3.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Wow, already feeling like I have too big a list of comments to reply to. ;p
Thanks for the big welcomes, group. 'S a nice thing to walk back into.
*waves at Zazzy (nice) and Itinerant Soldier*
And I know you would.
Only hopefully without unpleasant hallucinogenic-y side effects. Long time no see, Greg. Although I think I saw you on Facebook a couple of times.
Come to think of, I dunno who all from here would know my Facebook.
*blinks* If you insist. Does it matter to you which order I do it it?
I couldn't stop watching that animation. Now I'm a little sad it's gone, hee.
Also - grr, where were you when I tried to start a talk about interfaith stuff and atheism/agnosticism here in Debate that one time?
Hooters, my ass.
Hm. I guess that could be it.
Well if you're going to be good at something ... ;p
By the way, I had played Cube before. It was pretty fun actually. I did it over MWS, and we drafted cards like Ancestral Recall. Ha. Okay, that was crazyish.
I think he still won that one. Not sure.
Which brings me right back to competition and sex.
Hey, Starr! Howzit goin' these days?
I've been a lot more into D&D and tabletopping (ha) lately as opposed to Magic. What have you all been up to anymore?
As for what makes an RPG stand out - I think aesthetic counts for a whole lot, only it's sort of in an intangible way, because there's much subjectivity to it. A game can have a really consistent, well constructed and deep style and feel to it, and that can make the difference even when all else is equal.
Play mechanics that help a feeling of interactivity is big and I think it's part of the style, too. If the mechanics feel immersive it adds to a game in multiple ways, by creating flair and being fun to use.
People have different tastes and levels of tolerance for difficulty and challenge, but I think it's easy to agree that challenges should have the effect of being exciting or thought-provoking rather than being annoying with hindrances that are otherwise pointless. If a section of a game requires skill and preparation, this is much better than if success feels random and like you have no control in achieving it.
I personally like games to have an element of breadth, where you can go in more than one direction at once or choose from multiple storytelling paths. This can mean a game with a story that is nonlinear to an extent, or a game that has a few different ways of playing, such as some games which let you do things like make choices in running a kingdom or raise animals or something in addition to completing the game's central and story-related tasks.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
During the time you were here, I hadn't solidified my position nearly as much as I have now. Simply put, the issue wasn't something I spent a whole lot of time thinking about. Several months ago, I got into the "new atheist" movement. I can't remember what sparked it, honestly, other than perhaps joining Reddit. Now I'm about as hardcore atheist as it gets, and I'm subscribed to the atheist subreddit and Pharyngula (P. Z.'s blog). My current favorite hero is Neil Degrasse Tyson, although I am pretty fond of P. Z. Meyers as well. The four horsemen (Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens) are cool, but Tyson just seems to have a buoyancy and charisma that fascinates me. He reminds me of Carl Sagan, in a way...who is another favorite of mine.
I had a tour/job interview this morning. An extremely taxing 4 AM interview with UPS. The job seems even more taxing, constant heavy lifting and carrying, and I'm not 100% sure my tiny bod could handle it. But I think I have good odds of getting a job. My uncle works in upper-management at the storehouse and told me they hire the majority of people who apply, especially for the early morning job. Plus my interviewer knew him, so that's nearly always a plus. I'll probably take the job if I get it, even though it would be challenging, because its all about getting any paycheck I can right now. Additionally, the money they give toward college could come in very handy and they promote from within the company in 99% of cases, so I may only have to work a difficult job for a month or two.
Has anyone else ever lost their magic play group :(? Sad stuff. My current attempt at reclaiming my lost magic playing is to play test proxy decks for the new standard against each other when I'm managing both sides. Magic is not as fun when there are almost no unknowns :-/.
My current fav. deck from those tests is a Pyromancer's Ascension Landfall/Burn deck that uses Chandra Ablaze as a finisher. (and not for the sick reasons I mentioned in PC Alacar ;).)
Starr, IMO, RPG's and RTS's pretty much have to be separated because of how I play and view them. One has a much higher importance upon the individual while the other puts an importance on the whole. Kinda a communism v. capitalism dichotomy here.
I haven't played a lot of non-MMO PC games so I can only really say what sparks my interest in a console RPG and what doesn't. What irks me is stuff that one could only find through insane exploration. If you ever played Star Ocean on the PS1 you'll know what I'm talking about with the hidden shop. Basically, it's out in the middle of nowhere, you get no hints as to its location, and where it is is one of the last places you would look. I'm not saying make every location obvious... but at least give me an idea where I'm going/looking. I know this has been an issue in a few modern RPG's as well from what I've seen.
RTS-wise... well I don't really play any of these but that's because at the heart of all the freedom in the battles themselves the march from scenario to scenario has ALWAYS felt very linear. Sure, what you do within the scenario may decide what the next scenario is like but what I really crave to see for once is the ability to have two battles going at once - One where you are and another simming while you're not there with the ability to switch between both battles in real time with your priority affecting what happens in the overall setting. Hell the ability to leave the battle when you feel it can take care of itself and do some more traditional RPG-like things (buy items, explore the overworld, achieve side objectives) would be ideal. I dunno if this has been done before and I'm sure it'd be VERY complicated to do but it does feel more realistic to me and it is after all just my ideal of RTS games.
I can't really think of any other complaints/comments since at this moment I don't even have a console myself anymore (though I should be getting one soon). But I can tell you some generic things that should be in all games (though these should be obvious).
-The storyline can't be either a gimme or a gimmick to the game. DO NOT FORSAKE IT!
-Make sure the controls and unique things of the game aren't really complicated. Overcomplicating things has been the doom of many things...
-Make sure the unique thing isn't just a tweak on an old thing... UNLESS your object is just to create a more perfect version of an old game.
-If possible, at least for RTS games, don't overlook an option of co-op (to go with a versus option). Teamwork can be much harder to achieve but it does add some enjoyable difficulty in with the game.
Otherwise I think you nailed the more generic complaints (button mashing, searching a dungeon for one key item, etc).
* Alacar Leoricar goes to get searing hot resin injected into his nose to kill the mental image
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I went into Debate and made a post.
Hooooooo whatwillhappennow?
EDIT: @Mr. Stuff: Gah, Richard Dawkins makes the atheist community look stupid. The equivalent of ... well, of people who makes other communities look stupid.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
I'll respond in a bit. I'm tired right now... my sleep schedule's all screwed up, and it's nearly 6:00am. 'Night everybody.
No, I mean that as an icon of atheists all over the world, he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Not as much as he needs to. Insensitivity isn't disconnected either, since it makes for terrible exchanges and things being generally poorly thought out and considered. Looking/being stupid is, like, insensitivity's illicit mistress. Srsly.
Not quite the level of the way Fred Phelps is for Christians, but then again that's quite a bar to reach.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Harris is the quickest on his feet and most articulate of the bunch, if you ask me, but I still wouldn't call Dawkins "stupid". Prone to more emotional arguments than he should be, I'll buy. Sometimes he just comes across as insulting, and other times he'll come up with something brilliant. The fossils are where he's really got it going on, so to speak. It's his area of expertise.
Just for kicks, before I sleep:
I didn't mean that he was a stupid person so much that he makes the publically viewed "atheist point of view" suspect because he defends it with kind of bad arguments (I'm sure there are good arguments, too, of course).
For instance, almost any argument to do with evolution and religion is off base. While many fundamentalists believe in a literal-historical view of the story of Genesis, it's not even the orthodox view or likely to be the most popular view of Christians worldwide. It's basically incidental to the religion's foundations.
It's the flip-side of anthropic principle cases a la Way of the Master, like the argument that since a banana has a shape that is easy for a human hand to hold, it must have been designed by an intelligent being to be eaten by humans.
Although, I wish it weren't so easy for folks to stereotype large groups based on the behavior of a small number of people.
EDIT: Sorry, peeps, for the bit of derailment.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Graph 1.
Graph 2.
Makes me want to pull my hair out, and I'm sure that's part of Dawkins' problem.
While the large part of the conversation up until now has been straight up discourse on who best represents the religion-less and how to best go about it, the last comment seems to have taken a differing tone. And hence, why I butt-in.
Stuff: While I don't disagree with the points made, there is one MAJOR thing to understand about your points that is the underlying cause of the entire problem. And that is religion, while used as the basis for arguement, is ONLY being used as means to gain power in a more political sense. It's twisted facts from and about the bible (among other holy books) that causes the massive change in stance between the christian north and the fundamentalist south. Using those so-called facts and then getting angrily swept up in them is usually how these things don't get questioned - because the start of the argument is good the rest that follows must also be true - even leaps of faith (yay logical fallacies).
I very much support atheists but my only point is not to confuse religion here for politics. Because at the end of the day its all about who looks best and who's in control of whom.
I can't wait for tomorrow to draft some ZEN Limited (which is my favorite limited format I've ever played) :dance:.
I hope everyone in the house is doing well :).
And oh, btw everyone wish her a happy birthday!
It's not as though the preacher is going "haha, I don't believe this crap, but it's an awesome way to make lots of money and gain power". Perhaps some are, but I believe the majority genuinely feel they are doing the right thing by trying to spread and privilege their belief system. That's why the belief system's got to go, because it's flat out scientifically and morally untenable and unhealthy for society.
Wow, you should add Prototype and Dawn of War II. That's my favorite as of now.
Im planning to replace my 9500Gt this Xmas.. Now I wonder what would it feel like playing with a GTX 275 and up =)
Monogreen 2007 | Jund Aggro MTGO 2013
But... regardless... yes, it's my birthday today... I like how facebook and various messaging services on various organizations remember that my birthday is today It's nice to come into work, especially when feeling a bit down, that people are remembering my birthday today I wonder if anyone at work will remember
It's a little depressing having my birthday be on a day I have to work, and look for a new job... but hey, I'm going to have an awesome party on Saturday, so I guess I just need to hang on to that thought
Thanks for the b-day wishes to those who did, and will...
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I know :), but I figured if I did it that way people would be more opted to visit my thread to see whom I was referring to ;).
I hope you have a good day Danica :).
Happy birthday, Danica.
May you eat good food, drink good wine, and... hmmmm... I dunno. Drink more good wine?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Oh, I know how you feel about working on your birthday.
Happy Birthday, Danica. Have fun on Saturday.
That's right. Not incidental to many peoples' eyes, but that's not what I said. I said it was incidental to the validity, or lack thereof, of the Christian religion. Or any religion.
If an evolutionary model of the development of life is true, it is no real way a threat to any religion's premises. I am perfectly aware of the controversy, but this is a matter between different groups of people - it's ultimately not relevant to the theism debate. People think it is, but it's not.
When it comes to Dawkins, I personally don't find it hard to understand the motives for how he acts, but it goes both ways. It always does. If it's not okay for atheists to be mistreated and for bad reasoning to come from Christian figures, then it's not okay for someone like Dawkins to wig out or say fossils disprove religion. At the very least, it just shows that the people in the debate don't know what they're really debating.
The scholarship about this, on both sides, needs to be better than it is.
The christian belief system? It's actually not too shabby as moralities go, and scientifically it's perfectly unobjectionable.
Fundamentalism is untenable, however, and that is not the same thing.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Happy happy birthday, Danica, I know you'll make it awesome somehow
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
actually theres more to say but god i really dont like getting involved in religion topics... it just never ends well
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei