But... I think you're reading way too much into it. As our financial meltdown as shown, it's okay to distrust big business. The American Financial System melts down every 10-20 years, while the Canadian system, hasn't melted down yet.
Simply put, we get put 'left' because we want to curb the excesses of the free market.
I get that, but I think those people are -3 to -4 ish. I'm seeing a lot approaching -8, which has got to be beyond that sentiment.
I get that, but I think those people are -3 to -4 ish. I'm seeing a lot approaching -8, which has got to be beyond that sentiment.
Like you've already complained about, that's just the wording. Is there really any difference between someone who strongly agrees or simply agrees to one of those questions? I think the -8s we're seeing are people who just picked 'strongly agree', while their beliefs are probably the same as my 'agree'.
But... I think you're reading way too much into it. As our financial meltdown as shown, it's okay to distrust big business. The American Financial System melts down every 10-20 years, while the Canadian system, hasn't melted down yet.
Simply put, we get put 'left' because we want to curb the excesses of the free market.
But this is the problem. You guys constantly confuse crony capitalism and a true free market, one where there is no government influence to cause market distortions. There is no such thing as "excesses of the free market" in our economy when corporations collude with the government to write rules and regulations to benefit themselves at the expense of their competitors.
That's a big reason why I'm right/libertarian. Most of my influences come from classical liberals like Bastiat and the Austrian school of economics (in particular, Murray Rothbard and Ludwig von Mises).
But this is the problem. You guys constantly confuse crony capitalism and a true free market, one where there is no government influence to cause market distortions. There is no such thing as "excesses of the free market" in our economy when corporations collude with the government to write rules and regulations to benefit themselves at the expense of their competitors.
Is a "true free market", in the way you seem to be defining it at least, possible?
The way I see it, that requires people to completely remove human influence.
How can you say it's not possible if it hasn't been actually tried yet?
How do you try something that is, in my opinion, impossible.
Heck, you even said this right here-
There is no such thing as "excesses of the free market" in our economy when corporations collude with the government to write rules and regulations to benefit themselves at the expense of their competitors.
This means that corporations and government shouldn't be allowed to work with one another for their (both private and public) benefit.
That means that both corporations and governments cannot be influenced by each other's actions, and that in itself requires people to not react to things that occur in their surroundings.
But this is the problem. You guys constantly confuse crony capitalism and a true free market, one where there is no government influence to cause market distortions. There is no such thing as "excesses of the free market" in our economy when corporations collude with the government to write rules and regulations to benefit themselves at the expense of their competitors.
And, in my opinion, you all are confusing the Free Market the economic term with the realities of the Free Market when exposed to the real world. Cartels, Monopolies and all sorts of underhanded business tactics that undermine the Free Market are the reality, and any sufficiently powerful corporation will be able to engage in Crony Capitalism at some level.
Yes, the US Financial Regulation system is the result of Crony Capitalism - but countries with banking systems that actually work (like Canada) don't do so because of deregulation.
But let's not get side tracked into debate. If you take this there I'll be happy to discuss it further with you.
Most governments that pretend to be communist are really authoritarian in nature to begin with, as opposed to true communism.
Most of the test results posted here swing left, that is correct. However, they also swing towards the libertarian end versus authoritarian. All this talk of these test results pointing towards communism are ignoring the authoritarian vs. libertarian axis.
TL;DR: Most of the tests are pointing towards Gandhi and Mandela and not Stalin or Mao.
Most governments that pretend to be communist are really authoritarian in nature to begin with, as opposed to true communism.
Most of the test results posted here swing left, that is correct. However, they also swing towards the libertarian end versus authoritarian. All this talk of these test results pointing towards communism are ignoring the authoritarian vs. libertarian axis.
TL;DR: Most of the tests are pointing towards Gandhi and Mandela and not Stalin or Mao.
Yeah, that's true. I think eh general consensus is that we need to find a less biased test. Anyone have suggestions?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Not different, just how far everyone seems to be on the communist side of the economic scale. I used to live in a communist country and, to say the least, it was awful >_<
Yeah, that's what the other axis is for. Someone like Stalin would be a left-wing authoritarian. It's like good/evil, lawful/chaotic, and understanding how alignments work/paladin.
Note that the People's Republic of China would fall into right-wing authoritarian; they're communist in name only at this point. (Friedman even claimed they were more "free" than the United States, in his Humpty Dumpty way of defining "free".)
Private Mod Note
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yeah, that's what the other axis is for. Someone like Stalin would be a left-wing authoritarian. It's like good/evil, lawful/chaotic, and understanding how alignments work/paladin.
Note that the People's Republic of China would fall into right-wing authoritarian; they're communist in name only at this point. (Friedman even claimed they were more "free" than the United States, in his Humpty Dumpty way of defining "free".)
I'm fully aware of these things. The concern I have is that people that trend to -8 economically would agree with questions like 'people should not own property.' That's where it gets scary for me
Private Mod Note
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
I'm fully aware of these things. The concern I have is that people that trend to -8 economically would agree with questions like 'people should not own property.' That's where it gets scary for me
I think the key distinction to make is personal effects vs. private property. I am not an expert, and this is why I'm so ambivalent to discussions of economics, however; from what I've read, the distinction is that private property encompasses means to production: land, capital, labor, etc. Personal effects are, well, personal effects: guitars, computer, food, toys, cars, and can be stretched as far as houses.
Like this- "People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality."
It's a bull**** question.
But it's not, unless you believe people are divided by them equally. Because people are divided by class, and people are divided by nationality. I hold that people are more divided by class than nationality, because a minimum wage worker holding down three part-time jobs and working 70 hours/week will find much more in common with a Chinese laborer than with an American corporate executive. Alternatively, one could see that the combination of differing languages, cultures, and sheer distance separates two workers of different nationalities far more than two people of the same nationality but different classes.
I put myself on the center of the spectrum. I'm graduating in economics and I come from a middle class family of government workers. My father is professor of math in the federal university and my mother works in the regional development bank here.
My view on things might be a bit complicated but they are the following:
* I'm a libertarian for social issue. It means I agree with liberals pro-abortion and pro-homosexual marriage stances and similar issues but I don't trust social movements and minorities seeking special benefits. (Left aspect tempered by right distrust).
* I'm classical liberal in terms of economic regulation. Governments should stay away from prices and private contracts regarding the production of private goods. (Right aspect)
* I'm right winged in the sense the government should not focus so much on economic conjecture. Stability and good contracts is what brings development. (Right aspect as well)
* Despite that I recognize the importance of Keynesian economics. I have no delusions with gold standard money and I think stimulus can be used to recover from a big crisis. (Right aspect tempered by left concern for things)
* I don't fear corporations and honestly they are the reason why we're better now then in 200 years ago, but I recognize some level of regulation regarding pollution and other stuff is needed. (Left aspect tempered by right trust in markets).
* I normally support social programs that seeks to add a welfare floor but no more then that. That includes food stamps, public transportation, basic education and some level of healthcare. (Left aspect tempered by right fiscal responsibility).
In the Political Compass test i scored: Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.64
I think the key distinction to make is personal effects vs. private property. I am not an expert, and this is why I'm so ambivalent to discussions of economics, however; from what I've read, the distinction is that private property encompasses means to production: land, capital, labor, etc. Personal effects are, well, personal effects: guitars, computer, food, toys, cars, and can be stretched as far as houses.
Yeah but no private property of means of production is ****ing scary. It means you don't own things you work for, meaning some things are no longer worth the 'work' for. A economy without entrepreneurs is stagnant. Left-wingers really greatly underestimate the importance of people who play the market game to generate social wealth (the same wealth that will be partially taxed and used to support the programs they rightly want).
But it's not, unless you believe people are divided by them equally. Because people are divided by class, and people are divided by nationality. I hold that people are more divided by class than nationality, because a minimum wage worker holding down three part-time jobs and working 70 hours/week will find much more in common with a Chinese laborer than with an American corporate executive. Alternatively, one could see that the combination of differing languages, cultures, and sheer distance separates two workers of different nationalities far more than two people of the same nationality but different classes.
I don't like the question because it's a leading question.
In other words, it's loaded and you're meant to get very specific and limited out of it.
I understand that's the point of this test, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bull**** question.
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79
(and for context, I'm an undergrad economics major)
I think I last took this specific test in a high school government class, where I scored right-libertarian. I identified as a Libertarian back then, but I would never do so these days. Being a Libertarian (with a big 'L') implies holding a lot of rather extreme beliefs, so I'm more comfortable saying that I like markets and value my civil liberties.
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79
(and for context, I'm an undergrad economics major)
I think I last took this specific test in a high school government class, where I scored right-libertarian. I identified as a Libertarian back then, but I would never do so these days. Being a Libertarian (with a big 'L') implies holding a lot of rather extreme beliefs, so I'm more comfortable saying that I like markets and value my civil liberties.
See, I feel like in that case your economic slider should be either more to 0 or even slightly towards the right. In insignificant circumstances, would you err for private enterprise/deregulation or for public interest/regulation?
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
See, I feel like in that case your economic slider should be either more to 0 or even slightly towards the right. In insignificant circumstances, would you err for private enterprise/deregulation or for public interest/regulation?
See, even that isn't a good indicator. I'm for private enterprise/deregulation in some cases, but for public interest/regulation in others. I'm about 50/50 - when it comes to polluting industries, financial and healthcare institutions, I'm for regulation; but I'm anti-regulation in most other industries.
See, even that isn't a good indicator. I'm for private enterprise/deregulation in some cases, but for public interest/regulation in others. I'm about 50/50 - when it comes to polluting industries, financial and healthcare institutions, I'm for regulation; but I'm anti-regulation in most other industries.
So yeah, you should be MUCH closer to the middle. I don't like how this test skews left on both axes.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
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I get that, but I think those people are -3 to -4 ish. I'm seeing a lot approaching -8, which has got to be beyond that sentiment.
Yeah, earlier I expressed my dissatisfaction at the amount of leading and badly worded questions. We should find a better teat for this.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Like you've already complained about, that's just the wording. Is there really any difference between someone who strongly agrees or simply agrees to one of those questions? I think the -8s we're seeing are people who just picked 'strongly agree', while their beliefs are probably the same as my 'agree'.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
But this is the problem. You guys constantly confuse crony capitalism and a true free market, one where there is no government influence to cause market distortions. There is no such thing as "excesses of the free market" in our economy when corporations collude with the government to write rules and regulations to benefit themselves at the expense of their competitors.
That's a big reason why I'm right/libertarian. Most of my influences come from classical liberals like Bastiat and the Austrian school of economics (in particular, Murray Rothbard and Ludwig von Mises).
Is a "true free market", in the way you seem to be defining it at least, possible?
The way I see it, that requires people to completely remove human influence.
Which is impossible.
How can you say it's not possible if it hasn't been actually tried yet?
How do you try something that is, in my opinion, impossible.
Heck, you even said this right here-
This means that corporations and government shouldn't be allowed to work with one another for their (both private and public) benefit.
That means that both corporations and governments cannot be influenced by each other's actions, and that in itself requires people to not react to things that occur in their surroundings.
Which is... impossible.
And, in my opinion, you all are confusing the Free Market the economic term with the realities of the Free Market when exposed to the real world. Cartels, Monopolies and all sorts of underhanded business tactics that undermine the Free Market are the reality, and any sufficiently powerful corporation will be able to engage in Crony Capitalism at some level.
Yes, the US Financial Regulation system is the result of Crony Capitalism - but countries with banking systems that actually work (like Canada) don't do so because of deregulation.
But let's not get side tracked into debate. If you take this there I'll be happy to discuss it further with you.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Most of the test results posted here swing left, that is correct. However, they also swing towards the libertarian end versus authoritarian. All this talk of these test results pointing towards communism are ignoring the authoritarian vs. libertarian axis.
TL;DR: Most of the tests are pointing towards Gandhi and Mandela and not Stalin or Mao.
Yeah, that's true. I think eh general consensus is that we need to find a less biased test. Anyone have suggestions?
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Yeah, that's what the other axis is for. Someone like Stalin would be a left-wing authoritarian. It's like good/evil, lawful/chaotic, and understanding how alignments work/paladin.
Note that the People's Republic of China would fall into right-wing authoritarian; they're communist in name only at this point. (Friedman even claimed they were more "free" than the United States, in his Humpty Dumpty way of defining "free".)
On phasing:
I'm fully aware of these things. The concern I have is that people that trend to -8 economically would agree with questions like 'people should not own property.' That's where it gets scary for me
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
I think the key distinction to make is personal effects vs. private property. I am not an expert, and this is why I'm so ambivalent to discussions of economics, however; from what I've read, the distinction is that private property encompasses means to production: land, capital, labor, etc. Personal effects are, well, personal effects: guitars, computer, food, toys, cars, and can be stretched as far as houses.
But it's not, unless you believe people are divided by them equally. Because people are divided by class, and people are divided by nationality. I hold that people are more divided by class than nationality, because a minimum wage worker holding down three part-time jobs and working 70 hours/week will find much more in common with a Chinese laborer than with an American corporate executive. Alternatively, one could see that the combination of differing languages, cultures, and sheer distance separates two workers of different nationalities far more than two people of the same nationality but different classes.
Loam Pox
Standard:
Boros Burn
My view on things might be a bit complicated but they are the following:
* I'm a libertarian for social issue. It means I agree with liberals pro-abortion and pro-homosexual marriage stances and similar issues but I don't trust social movements and minorities seeking special benefits. (Left aspect tempered by right distrust).
* I'm classical liberal in terms of economic regulation. Governments should stay away from prices and private contracts regarding the production of private goods. (Right aspect)
* I'm right winged in the sense the government should not focus so much on economic conjecture. Stability and good contracts is what brings development. (Right aspect as well)
* Despite that I recognize the importance of Keynesian economics. I have no delusions with gold standard money and I think stimulus can be used to recover from a big crisis. (Right aspect tempered by left concern for things)
* I don't fear corporations and honestly they are the reason why we're better now then in 200 years ago, but I recognize some level of regulation regarding pollution and other stuff is needed. (Left aspect tempered by right trust in markets).
* I normally support social programs that seeks to add a welfare floor but no more then that. That includes food stamps, public transportation, basic education and some level of healthcare. (Left aspect tempered by right fiscal responsibility).
In the Political Compass test i scored:
Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.64
Yeah but no private property of means of production is ****ing scary. It means you don't own things you work for, meaning some things are no longer worth the 'work' for. A economy without entrepreneurs is stagnant. Left-wingers really greatly underestimate the importance of people who play the market game to generate social wealth (the same wealth that will be partially taxed and used to support the programs they rightly want).
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I don't like the question because it's a leading question.
In other words, it's loaded and you're meant to get very specific and limited out of it.
I understand that's the point of this test, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a bull**** question.
Economic Left/Right: -2.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79
(and for context, I'm an undergrad economics major)
I think I last took this specific test in a high school government class, where I scored right-libertarian. I identified as a Libertarian back then, but I would never do so these days. Being a Libertarian (with a big 'L') implies holding a lot of rather extreme beliefs, so I'm more comfortable saying that I like markets and value my civil liberties.
EDH:
UBGThe MimeoplasmUBG
See, I feel like in that case your economic slider should be either more to 0 or even slightly towards the right. In insignificant circumstances, would you err for private enterprise/deregulation or for public interest/regulation?
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
See, even that isn't a good indicator. I'm for private enterprise/deregulation in some cases, but for public interest/regulation in others. I'm about 50/50 - when it comes to polluting industries, financial and healthcare institutions, I'm for regulation; but I'm anti-regulation in most other industries.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
So yeah, you should be MUCH closer to the middle. I don't like how this test skews left on both axes.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo